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Tax Exemption?


churchanddestroy

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What do you think of religious tax exemption? Is it a good thing or a bad thing?

Anton LaVey's Church of Satan thinks its a bad thing. The Church of Satan is constantly eligible for a tax exempt status, yet they consistently decline. Every time.

The Church's official stance on this is "responsibility to the responsible."

What do you think of "responsibility to the responsible?"

I personally do not support tax exemption for religious institutions. I think the Church of Satan is on to something, with responsibility to the responsible. I used to work in a pizza place, and I would often receive a pretty constant stream of Churches ordering pizzas for their whatever get togethers, and of course I would comply with the "no tax" thing. However, one time I forgot, completely on accident, and the response I received when the lady came to pick up her pizza was ridiculous. She through a f*ing fit. Do churches deserve tax exemption? I say no, there is no need for it.

For one, Churches are an excellent way to make money. Any yucko can start a church, apply for tax exemption, and suddenly this guy gets to keep ALL of the donations put in the donation plate.

I really really frown on this idea. How about you?

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If you start taxing churches, you will legally have to start taxing charities and other non-profit organisations. Otherwise you are looking at an almighty lawsuit stemming from claims of discrimination against religion.

While it is true there are some religious groups that abuse their tax-free status and have 100 million dollar buildings and 100 thousand dollar sound systems with a pastor who drives a BMW and wears Armani, this is quite frankly not the norm. Small-medium sized churches are the far more common. And it is these churches that will suffer from taxes. Mega churches will be able to stay afloat whatever happens. Many small churches are not even staying afloat now. These small churches are non-profit organisations, they are not making money, and are involved in helping the community in many ways.

Take tax-exempt status from churches and religions, and you take tax-exempt status from many charities (just to name three off the top of my head, but there are more):

Anglicare

Salvation Army

World Vision

All of whom are run by religious organisations and bring aid and relief to countless people within Australia and beyond. And this does not even address non-religious charities, which could arguably be put in the same position.

Just a thought.

~ Regards, PA

Edited by Paranoid Android
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mhm. This is a very difficult question.

Quite frankly no I don't think you should start taxing all churches. However I do think you should examine wether an organisation truly is for profit or not. For instance the billions that the Catholic Church makes should most certainly be taxed. Its a huge amount of money and such money leads to corruption.

At the same time as PA says some churches use the donations in a modest way. To support the upkeep of the church and perhaps to assist the local community or indeed even assisting the greater global communities at times.

The fact is that it would take a lot of work to find out who is wroughting the system and which church truly does not exist for profit. That said I think a case by case consideration is necessary. This however will allow discrimination and bias to enter the question so it truly is hard to decide.

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No I don't think religions should be tax exempt.

On a side note I try to fund charities that do not have religious affiliations. Some religions do not support condom use - which is crucial to fighting AIDS in developing countries.

Most do - I am not suggesting that World Vision etc don't:

http://www.worldvision.org/get_involved.nsf/child/hope_faqs

Q: What is World Vision’s policy on use of condoms as a preventive measure?

A: In its health programs addressing HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases, World Vision supports a comprehensive approach to prevention that is supported by public health evidence and biblical principles. World Vision promotes sexual abstinence outside of marriage and fidelity within marriage

These charities in general do a marvellous job, but what if biblical principles were in opposition to best health practices? What takes precedence? That is what makes me worry.

Edited by Belqis
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I say tax them those why should they get a break? What are they giving the world that they deserve such a break? I can see not taxing non-profit organizations at least they are giving something back to people. Organizations like the Salvation Amy gives back I don’t see that with churches.

Sorry PA over here in the states you see preachers driving those $60,000 cars & living in house they could not afford to live in by themselves. The mega-churches over here are taking over, I see no problem with a charity using biblical principles I do have a problem with those LIKE Bob Lawson ripping people off by using the faith of others around them.

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They should be taxed. It's no secret chuches throughout history have exploited this exemption through banking & big business interests. While the average hard working citizen struggles while being taxed to the max from all angles and to top it off expects it's followers to give what they can spare just like beggers in the streets.

Edited by REBEL
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The law varies from country to country, of course.

In the United States, it is an accepted principle, based on federal case law (established in a landmark case about state taxation of a federal central bank) that "the power to tax is the power to destroy." At the same time, the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States guarantees the free exercise of religion.

Even a lawyer would have trouble reconciling the power to destroy with the guarantee of free exercise :) .

Good idea or bad idea, the United States seems to be stuck with a tax exemption for the core activities of churches. Of course, if there was "supermajority" support for reform, then the Constitution could be amended however the people pleased. But on this subject, fat chance of that.

Edited by eight bits
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Perhaps, instead of taxing the small local churches that do good in their societies, you should make a rule so churches that make over a certain amount and dont give enough back are counted as businesses and lose their tax exempt status. This should balance it out, and we'll have less preachers building 2.7 million dollar churches to preach about the evils of faggotry while their community could use some of that money.

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What do you think of religious tax exemption? Is it a good thing or a bad thing?

Anton LaVey's Church of Satan thinks its a bad thing. The Church of Satan is constantly eligible for a tax exempt status, yet they consistently decline. Every time.

The Church's official stance on this is "responsibility to the responsible."

What do you think of "responsibility to the responsible?"

I personally do not support tax exemption for religious institutions. I think the Church of Satan is on to something, with responsibility to the responsible. I used to work in a pizza place, and I would often receive a pretty constant stream of Churches ordering pizzas for their whatever get togethers, and of course I would comply with the "no tax" thing. However, one time I forgot, completely on accident, and the response I received when the lady came to pick up her pizza was ridiculous. She through a f*ing fit. Do churches deserve tax exemption? I say no, there is no need for it.

For one, Churches are an excellent way to make money. Any yucko can start a church, apply for tax exemption, and suddenly this guy gets to keep ALL of the donations put in the donation plate.

I really really frown on this idea. How about you?

I agree with you.

Especially in the US, why shouldn't churchs pay taxes?

I mean, most of it is going to their holy war in Iraq anyway.

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It should be forced upon them. They operate in many countries so its only fair that the country receives a cut. Its the least they could do.

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I was thinking more along the lines of why did the Church of Satan opt out of tax exemption and yet no other religious organization that I am aware of has done so.

Legality aside, should churches opt out?

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I was thinking more along the lines of why did the Church of Satan opt out of tax exemption and yet no other religious organization that I am aware of has done so.

Legality aside, should churches opt out?

Well it could go either way. From what I know the Church of Satan doesn't have queues outside of their places of worship or whatever.

But Scientology at first didn't think it would become so big, now that it has become so big they are now pushing for the right to operate in the name of "religion" to become tax exempt.

So I guess size matters (sorry for the innuendo couldn't help myself).

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Well it could go either way. From what I know the Church of Satan doesn't have queues outside of their places of worship or whatever.

But Scientology at first didn't think it would become so big, now that it has become so big they are now pushing for the right to operate in the name of "religion" to become tax exempt.

So I guess size matters (sorry for the innuendo couldn't help myself).

This is true, the CoS has a rather limited congregation. However, I do think that they set a prime example, and put other religions to shame, when they opt out of tax exemption. Responsibility to the responsible is a good idea in my opinion. Too often the clergy are not charged with any responsibility, outside the pulpit anyways. They operate as they please.

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Far be it for me to invite the government in by suggesting they look at certain organizations more closely or to write MORE laws but I am hard pressed to suggest something else here.

I do not know offhand if there are laws/rules that say an organization must prove it is non-profit. If there are then they are poorly enforced and if there are not there should be. If you want to be a tax exempt church or charity then you must prove that the majority of your money is going towards your people not your pocket. There are problems with this though.

Now for the more difficult part. You have to pay your priest(or whatever) and you have to pay the members working for the charity. Unless the whole thing is a volunteer basis and some of them should be. This is the problem. For example if one church decides a nice house, Cadillac, Rolex etc is the lifestyle they want their priest to live at then they will pay them accordingly but if another church can not afford that then their priest has to live by much simpler means. In my experiance there is a simple rule here. If a church can pay their priest a large amount of money and have him living above the means of many of its members then they will. If they can not afford it then the priest must live simpler. If they can, they will. A simple rule I often see.

There is no cap you can pay a holy man or a cap on how much property of the church he can use. It can be a church owned house, on church owned property, a church owned car, a church owned gas card etc. How could you cap the salary of someone running a charity. Again its a problem. How could you fix such a thing? I think this would be up to the people themselves. Dont like a charity because of their ways then dont give them money. Dont like a church because of its ways then find another. Though this latter one requires free thinking and might move one away from religion totally or the lack there of would keep you rooted at "your church".

Now in my area I see a few real world examples here, I am not just biased because I am atheist. For example my boss goes to a church that is in a very economically down city/area. Now he was just complaining that he got a letter in the mail stating that his church would like everyones yearly contributions to the church to equal 25% of their yearly income, up from the 17/18% they used to dema...ask for. I have been to this church during some of their street festivals, hey they have darn good gyros and have seen the vehicle and accessories the priest(maybe not a priest but spare me, I cant think of the proper term) has. I was also driven past this guys house and let me just say he is living well above the means of most of the community. Knowing all this I asked my boss if he could recall any charity his church extended to the community or the like. Other than the toy/coat boxes in the church lobby around xmas time he could not remember any. Though he clearly recalls them asking for more money for such things.

This makes three churches in my area that I know of that asks for more money, has a holy man living well above the means of its people and yet has a significant absence in helping the community. I know of three more that do some things for the community yet there seems to be a lot more going in than coming out. I only know of one church in my area that does a large amount of charity for its people and my younger sister goes there for several things. When I happen to pick her up I always see if I can spare what cash I have on hand and put it in their box in the lobby. I would never think of doing this for any of the other churches in the area. I also find it funny that this church asks for money by simply putting a box in the lobby and that is it. Maybe a mention now and then of an annual even coming up that they could use a few extra dollars for but this is it.

I really dont know what you could do about this though. I would encourage people looking to donate to a charity or members of a church to look closely at them and decide if you agree with their ways of operating.....

Kevin A.

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I say tax them those why should they get a break? What are they giving the world that they deserve such a break? I can see not taxing non-profit organizations at least they are giving something back to people. Organizations like the Salvation Amy gives back I don’t see that with churches.

Sorry PA over here in the states you see preachers driving those $60,000 cars & living in house they could not afford to live in by themselves. The mega-churches over here are taking over, I see no problem with a charity using biblical principles I do have a problem with those LIKE Bob Lawson ripping people off by using the faith of others around them.

Having never been in the States I can't say what it's like. I guess I would doubt that "mega churches" are the norm even over there, but in Australia, they are most definitely the minority. Most churches are much much smaller. I went to a church with 200 members in their congregation and was overwhelmed (the church itself had 600 members, but spread over three services). This was the largest church i have ever attended.

That said, you do know that Salvation Army is also a religious organisation??? They are the most recognised of the religious aid organisations, but they are not the only ones. The big question that arises for me is how we decide when someone is giving something back. The Salvation Army, you say, is giving something back. But a church is not, again you say. So what is the criteria? My church would not be considered to be in the same league as the Salvation Army, but that does not mean that it does not help. And that is completely aside from the Anglicare centre attached to our church next door which does deal with these issue.

So how does one decide that my church is or is not worthy of tax-exemption? And what about other churches in my area and other areas around Australia and around the world? It is a hard issue because there are some who abuse their tax-free status. But as sad as this is, to stamp this out would be to disadvantage many people and many groups who are honestly working to help other people, while simultaneously affecting policies about non-profit organisations regardless of religious affiliations.

BTW, I have never heard of Bob Lawson.

~ Regards, PA

Edited by Paranoid Android
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I was thinking more along the lines of why did the Church of Satan opt out of tax exemption and yet no other religious organization that I am aware of has done so.

Legality aside, should churches opt out?

Not having a great deal of information about the Church of Satan, but considering the general principles of their beliefs, my main question would be whether the followers of Anton La Vey are actually working towards humanitarian aid in anything.

As an aside, Atheist organisations have applied for tax-free status also, so just because the Church of Satan does not does not mean that all non-religious organisations agree with this philosophy. The Atheist Foundation of Australia, for example , applied for tax-free status, and despite being denied the first time were granted tax-free status on appeal. So there are non-religious organisations that have applied for the same tax-breaks that religions have, which sort of puts a burr in the whole argument if you ask me.

~ PA

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Having never been in the States I can't say what it's like. I guess I would doubt that "mega churches" are the norm even over there, but in Australia, they are most definitely the minority. Most churches are much much smaller. I went to a church with 200 members in their congregation and was overwhelmed (the church itself had 600 members, but spread over three services). This was the largest church i have ever attended.

That said, you do know that Salvation Army is also a religious organisation??? They are the most recognised of the religious aid organisations, but they are not the only ones. The big question that arises for me is how we decide when someone is giving something back. The Salvation Army, you say, is giving something back. But a church is not, again you say. So what is the criteria? My church would not be considered to be in the same league as the Salvation Army, but that does not mean that it does not help. And that is completely aside from the Anglicare centre attached to our church next door which does deal with these issue.

So how does one decide that my church is or is not worthy of tax-exemption? And what about other churches in my area and other areas around Australia and around the world? It is a hard issue because there are some who abuse their tax-free status. But as sad as this is, to stamp this out would be to disadvantage many people and many groups who are honestly working to help other people, while simultaneously affecting policies about non-profit organisations regardless of religious affiliations.

~ Regards, PA

BTW, I have never heard of Bob Lawson.

~ Regards, PA

1. Yes, in America Mega Churches are becoming increasingly the norm. I view mega churches as a kind of spiritual Wal-mart: Its cheap, fast, easy, and in the end you're gorging some Plutocrat B*****d's wallet. I see mega churches as an easy way to make a ton of easy cash. Its pretty easy, all you need to do is:

1. Write a book

2. Use the profits from the book to build your mega church

3. Preach on Sundays and reap the benefits

But what I am driving at here is that I think Churches opting out of tax exempt status is the right thing to do. The Churches shouldn't do it because of the Law and the Government, they should do it because its the right thing to do. After all, they preach to us about doing the right thing...

P.s. Bob Larson is a supposed exorcist, and from where I stand hes a total sham. But we need not discuss him here.

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Churches have become a business & not much else these days. One reason I believe that they should pay taxes is who do you think is paying those taxes for them? I think it is everyone responsibility to pay taxes even the atheist group that PA talked about.

Yes I know that the Salvation Army is religious based & I have no problem with that

At all, but I see they do a lot of good with the money that they give them. So occasionally, a local church might feed some homeless people or give out some clothes

When a church is paying a preacher enough to live like a king while wanting to be tax free & claiming to help people does not sound christilike or what a christian should be.

Edited by norwood1026
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Churches have become a business & not much else these days. One reason I believe that they should pay taxes is who do you think is paying those taxes for them? I think it is everyone responsibility to pay taxes even the atheist group that PA talked about.

Yes I know that the Salvation Army is religious based & I have no problem with that

At all, but I see they do a lot of good with the money that they give them. So occasionally, a local church might feed some homeless people or give out some clothes

When a church is paying a preacher enough to live like a king while wanting to be tax free & claiming to help people does not sound christilike or what a christian should be.

Yes, I agree. I think charitable organizations should be tax free (why would you tax charity?) and while I don't specifically support repealing the tax exemption of religious organizations, I really really believe that other religions should follow the CoS and freely abstain from tax exemption. I really believe its the right thing to do. Furthermore, I think any religious organization that opts out of a tax exempt status would be showing how genuine they actually are.

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If you start taxing churches, you will legally have to start taxing charities and other non-profit organisations.

Fine tax them all except for specific items or cash given away outside of their organizations. If they are any good at all then they can take it or learn to watch their budget like all other social groups.

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There is no good reason why Churches should be exempted from tax.

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Churches are big business....they are corporate , profit generation via exploitation.

As with most corporate mega-entities from oil companies, to media companies , to pharmacutical companies, to the Christian Right....there is a very sharp claw that each pocess that is used to sway not only public opinion, but sway the manner in which laws are passed......through their lobby groups.

The Evangelical christian lobbyists are one of the most powerful lobbies in Washington!

A Lobby is an interest group (also advocacy group, lobby group, pressure group or special interest group) is an organized collection of people who seek to influence political decisions and policy, without seeking election to public office. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobby_group

So basically a lobby group can squeeze government in a desired direction via political contributions or the promise of or threat of no votes. So obviously if you want to have a successful career in politics then you better make sure that the more powerful lobby groups support you or they will ruin you.

Its corruption at its best and the Evangelical Christian groups are just as guilty at exploiting the system as the oil companies and pharmaceutical companies.......if a bill comes into effect that has the remotest possibilty of effecting profit generation or public opinion negatively.....then the Lobby groups jump into action.

Its funny because when John Gotti did it they called it extortion....but when the Christian right does it, its called a Lobby.

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The church of Satan must be discriminated against

I say TAX all churches...even charities...whatever...

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The church itself is a business. Tax it as a business. Allow it to deduct contributions to charity like any other business.

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