Irish Origins of Civilization

[Celtic Spirit]

There's no evidence that "The Celt's" ever invaded the British isles actually there's no evidence to support any of your post, Romans and canals?

I didn't say anything about the Celts invading the British isles.

Of course the nemes of England, Wales, Scotland did not exist at the time. But the Romans did invade the island that was Celtic at the time. (The Druids were a sect of the Celtic people at the time)

And the history that I learned did mention that the canals and main roads on present-day England were built by the Romans.

Adrian's wall was as far as they went north.

[hetrodoxly]

I didn't say anything about the Celts invading the British isles.

Of course the nemes of England, Wales, Scotland did not exist at the time. But the Romans did invade the island that was Celtic at the time. (The Druids were a sect of the Celtic people at the time)

And the history that I learned did mention that the canals and main roads on present-day England were built by the Romans.

Adrian's wall was as far as they went north.

The canal system was built in the 18th-19th century? there's little evidence of celts in Ireland Scotland or wales the only thing that can be said for certain is Celts traded on the south coast of England and possibly had small settlements in the south of England, the majority of the inhabitants at the time of the Roman invasion carried on living as they had always done the chieftains were kept quiet with gifts of gold there must have been a thriving population at the time because food was sent from England to feed the starving Roman army on the Rhine,

the only evidence we have of those that did resist all came from England with detailed contemporary reports still in existence carcatus, boudicca, etc.

[The Maharaja]

If i may pose a question, where did the pic,s who inhabited scotland during roman times come from?

[Bella-Angelique]

a good 1/3 of their income towards doing what they preach

Be a good thing to apply to all charities and non-profits under the law actually.

[hetrodoxly]

If i may pose a question, where did the pic,s who inhabited scotland during roman times come from?

Probably descendants of the original hunter gatherers that crossed the land bridge that used to connected the British Isles to mainland Europe.

[The Maharaja]

Does anyone know if they traded with the celts, and what was their connection with the Druids?

[Celtic Spirit]

The canal system was built in the 18th-19th century? there's little evidence of celts in Ireland Scotland or wales the only thing that can be said for certain is Celts traded on the south coast of England and possibly had small settlements in the south of England, the majority of the inhabitants at the time of the Roman invasion carried on living as they had always done the chieftains were kept quiet with gifts of gold there must have been a thriving population at the time because food was sent from England to feed the starving Roman army on the Rhine,

the only evidence we have of those that did resist all came from England with detailed contemporary reports still in existence carcatus, boudicca, etc.

You are obviously well informed in ancient history in the region. It is said that happenings of history depends on who wrote them.

But what about the Celtic designs found in Ireland, Scotland and other places that historians have traced back over Europe?

If historians contradict themselves then what is one to believe? Certain nations elevate their history to make them look good and down play their former enimies. It's the same as propaganda except after the fact.

[jaylemurph]

You are obviously well informed in ancient history in the region. It is said that happenings of history depends on who wrote them.

But what about the Celtic designs found in Ireland, Scotland and other places that historians have traced back over Europe?

If historians contradict themselves then what is one to believe? Certain nations elevate their history to make them look good and down play their former enimies. It's the same as propaganda except after the fact.

You keep touting this, but it belies a certain ignorance to what history /is/. If you want mere facts alone, consult an archaeologist. History is -- by definition -- the arrangement of facts according to some perspective. It is interpretation of facts, not the facts themselves, so of course historians are going to disagree amongst themselves. It's only propaganda if it disavows this of itself and claims to be completely unbiased. If you want absolute truth, try mathematics. History is an inappropriate place to look for it.

Still, this is one step above the people who claim every historian, ever is in a one big conspiracy to cover up whatever their Truth Du Jour is.

--Jaylemurph

[crystal sage]

http://uyghuramerican.org/articles/471/1/A...-mystery-of-Chi

The burial sites of Cherchen Man and his fellow people were marked with stone structures that look like dolmens from Britain, ringed by round-faced, Celtic figures, or standing stones. Among their icons were figures reminiscent of the sheela-na-gigs, wild females who flaunted their bodies and can still be found in mediaeval churches in Britain. A female mummy wears a long, conical hat which has to be a witch or a wizard's hat. Or a druid's, perhaps? The wooden combs they used to fan their tresses are familiar to students of ancient Celtic art.

At their peak, around 300BC, the influence of the Celts stretched from Ireland in the west to the south of Spain and across to Italy's Po Valley, and probably extended to parts of Poland and Ukraine and the central plain of Turkey in the east. These mummies seem to suggest, however, that the Celts penetrated well into central Asia, nearly making it as far as Tibet.

The Celts gradually infiltrated Britain between about 500 and 100BC. There was probably never anything like an organised Celtic invasion: they arrived at different times, and are considered a group of peoples loosely connected by similar language, religion, and cultural expression.

The eastern Celts spoke a now-dead language called Tocharian, which is related to Celtic languages and part of the Indo-European group. They seem to have been a peaceful folk, as there are few weapons among the Cherchen find and there is little evidence of a caste system.

Even older than the Cherchen find is that of the 4,000-year-old Loulan Beauty, who has long flowing fair hair and is one of a number of mummies discovered near the town of Loulan. One of these mummies was an eight-year-old child wrapped in a piece of patterned wool cloth, closed with bone pegs.

[crystal sage]

"History, not unnaturally, tends to be written by historians, but seldom by geographers, or seamen, or interpreters of legend, and much of the early history of the world has suffered in consequence.1"

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b4e27bc1741.htm

A CONSIDERATION: WAS AMERICA DISCOVERED IN 1170 by PRINCE MADOC AB OWAIN GWYNEDD OF WALES?

It was this civil war from which Madoc fled. His story was repeated by bards and recorded throughout the next four centuries by various historians, but concise and detailed accounts would not be found until after the introduction of printing.7 Perhaps the earliest printed account of Madoc's story is from Dr. David Powel's The Historie of Cambria published in 1584:

Madoc. . .left the land in contention betwixt his brethern and prepared certain shipps with men and munitions and sought adventures by seas, sailing west. . .he came to a land unknown where he saw manie strange things. . . . Of the viage and returne of this Madoc there be manie fables faimed, as the common people do use in distance of place and length of time, rather to augment than diminish; but sure it is that there he was. . . .And after he had returned home, and declared the pleasant and fruitfulle countries that he had seen without inhabitants, and upon the contrarie part, for what barren and wilde ground his brethern and nepheues did murther one another, he prepared a number of shipps, and got with him such men and women as were desirous to live in quietnesse, and taking leave of his freends tooke his journie thitherward againe. . . .This Madoc arriving in the countrie, into which he came in the yeare 1170, left most of his people there, and returning back for more of his own nation, acquaintance, and friends, to inhabit that fayre and large countrie, went thither againe.8

Madoc's story was related in A Brief Discription of the Whole World (1620); a version was told by Sir Thomas Herbert in the last section of his Relation of Some Years Travaile (1626), based on what Sir Thomas said were records of "200 years agoe and more"9; the Dutch writer Hornius tells of Madoc in De Originibus Americanis (1652); and Richard Hakluyt's Principall Navigations (1600) establishes the fact that the story of Madoc existed before the time of Columbus.10 Hakluyt, a geographer as well as an historian, had a reputation for being a perfectionist. His work is thoroughly researched and supported by foreign as well as British sources.11

Gutyn Owen was a renowned Welsh historian and geneologist with a well documented career and a number of famous works of Welsh literature to his credit. His writings are cited as sources of Madoc's story by a number of authors, and the fact that his account of Madoc was written before 1492 ". . .refutes the criticism that the Madoc story was brought forward after 1492 in order that Great Britain could claim prior rights to the new world.12

" Among the writings of Madoc's story are found suppositions of his landing in the West Indies, in Mexico, and in the Alabama-Florida region of North America. The scope of this paper dictates pursuit of the latter theory--more specifically, Mobile Bay, Alabama.

The choice of Mobile Bay as Madoc's landfall and the starting point for his colonists is grounded in two main areas. One is the logical assumption that the ocean currents13 would have carried him into the Gulf of Mexico. Once there and seeking a landing site, he would have been attracted to the perfect harbor offered in Mobile Bay, as were later explorers Ponce de Leon, Alonzo de Pineda, Hernando de Soto, and Amerigo Vespucci.14

The second, and more convincing reason, is a series of pre-Columbian forts built up the Alabama River, and the tradition handed down by the Cherokee Indians of the "White People" who built them. Testimony includes a letter dated 1810 from Governor John Seiver of Tennessee in response to an inquiry by Major Amos Stoddard. Governor Seiver refers to a time he spent with the Cherokee in 1782, and relates a conversation he had with Oconostota, who had been the ruling chief of the Cherokee Nation for nearly sixty years. Seiver had asked the Chief about the people who had left the "fortifications" in his country. The chief told him: "It is handed down by the Forefathers that the works had been made by the White people who had formerly inhabited the country. . ." and gave him a brief history of the "Whites." When asked if he had ever heard what nation these Whites had belonged to, Oconostota told Seiver that he ". . .had heard his grandfather and father say they were a people called Welsh, and that they had crossed the Great Water and landed first near the mouth of the Alabama River near Mobile. . .."15

Edited March 22, 2008 by crystal sage

[Celtic Spirit]

You keep touting this, but it belies a certain ignorance to what history /is/. If you want mere facts alone, consult an archaeologist. History is -- by definition -- the arrangement of facts according to some perspective. It is interpretation of facts, not the facts themselves, so of course historians are going to disagree amongst themselves. It's only propaganda if it disavows this of itself and claims to be completely unbiased. If you want absolute truth, try mathematics. History is an inappropriate place to look for it.

Still, this is one step above the people who claim every historian, ever is in a one big conspiracy to cover up whatever their Truth Du Jour is.

--Jaylemurph

You must be confusing me with someone else--where did I "keep touting" that before?

History tells us about things that have happened in the past to the best ability of the people preparing it. If, say, 90% say that according to all the facts known to them this is what happened and demonstrate those facts, like tools and weapons found, mummifies bodies, skeletons found in different areas, records from the past, art design, headstone types etc. and a small percent deny that that is what happened because they claim there is not enough evidence who would you believe? The latter are not showing any evidence as to something else happening.

This is how I read the history of the time in discussion.

And who said that I was looking for absolute proof of facts? I didn't.

[jaylemurph]

You must be confusing me with someone else--where did I "keep touting" that before?

I may be. There are lots of people on UM with wonky ideas about history.

History tells us about things that have happened in the past to the best ability of the people preparing it.

No, archaeology does that. As I said, history is interpretive: it tells us /why/ things happened, not /what/ things happened. It's causative.

If, say, 90% say that according to all the facts known to them this is what happened and demonstrate those facts, like tools and weapons found, mummifies bodies, skeletons found in different areas, records from the past, art design, headstone types etc. and a small percent deny that that is what happened because they claim there is not enough evidence who would you believe? The latter are not showing any evidence as to something else happening.

That's an awfully long sentence, and it loses come of its coherence. But to answer, "whom would I believe" in that situation? It's complex; it would depend on who is making a claim, what they're claiming. As I keep pointing out, since history is interpretation and not facts, personal facts like experience and education matter.

And who said that I was looking for absolute proof of facts? I didn't.

Well, probably because you conflate history with logic and hard facts, it seemed to me that like many people, you were working from this idea that there is "History with a Big H": a sort of absolute unfolding of causal event that can be understood on their own, outside of any personal biases. That there is a whole history of the human race that is "true" or "correct". This is a myth. Every point of history is subjective and mutable, and trying to pin it down definitively is self-deceptive.

--Jaylemurph

[crystal sage]

"History, not unnaturally, tends to be written by historians, but seldom by geographers, or seamen, or interpreters of legend, and much of the early history of the world has suffered in consequence.1"

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b4e27bc1741.htm

Martin Doutré - Ancient Celtic New Zealand

October 26, 2006

Where there a "pre-Historic" civilization who had great knowledge of navigation, capable of traveling globally by sea? Where these people Celts or Vikings? Where they behind the pyramids in Egypt and South America? Did they at some point settle down in New Zeeland? Join Martin and me as we explore an area that has been highly suppressed both historically and within the archeological field. Martin Doutrés website is celticnz.co.nz. Don't miss our subscriber interview with Martin.

http://www.redicecreations.com/radio/2006/...IRT-061026.html

http://www.kilts.co.nz/mitancient.htm

http://www.celticnz.co.nz/

http://www.celticnz.co.nz/embargo.html

http://www.kilts.co.nz/mitceltic.htm

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qi...08040758AABAdob

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~hubbca/archaeology.htm

Suppressed New Zealand history...

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread263830/pg1

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a387b2d90476c.htm

Postscript to earlier post: recall the present treatment by US govt of the 10,000 yr. old fossil remains discovered recently in Washington State. In order to pacify the claims of Indian activists, the US is (literally, in some cases) burying the evidence of earlier inhabitant cultures and groups. Sounds like the same thing is going on in New Zealand.

Edited March 23, 2008 by crystal sage

[hetrodoxly]

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~hubbca/archaeology.htm

Suppressed New Zealand history...

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread263830/pg1

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a387b2d90476c.htm

The gold buckle you've posted is Saxon it came from the Sutton Hoo burial.

[crystal sage]

The gold buckle you've posted is Saxon it came from the Sutton Hoo burial.

That was a magnificent archaeological find... the site reminded me of the Mima mounds!!!

http://www.pendleyusa.com/king_penda.htm

I think what the fellow meant was to compare the celtic designs with that of the Maori ..

http://www.nzedge.com/features/ar-denis15.html

Taine Rory Mhor ) Taine Ruaridh Mhor (the big cattle farmer) was delivered by three seagoing longships to New Zealand in the 12th Century, with 95 of his family and kinfolk and followers. It was deliberate but not by choice. Banishment was for seven generations by his friend King Alexander I of Scotland (reigned 1107-1124AD). Men in Taine\'s lineage were often well over 7 foot tall and generally had red hair, blue eyes and fair complexions. The survival of Taines group in New Zealand was initially in their own hands and by the will of God. Some tools were obtained by trade with visiting Portuguese, and the colony grew. It is said Taine was responsible for introducing particular trees and that there may be connection between Taine and \"Tane" the name used by Maoris for the God of the forest. ( Taine in old Gaelic is apparently pronounced the same as Tane in Maori.)[quot]

http://www.newworldcelts.org/new_zealand.html

The Riddle of Clan MacFarlane After 160 years (7 + 1 generations), Scots/Vikings (there were three ships, two of whose captains were Johansen and Christiansen - though the names are Nordic Scandinavian they were probably based in the Firth of Forth) were requested by folk in Scotland to go back to New Zealand and see if any of Taines people had survived. Supposedly some came back with the Vikings, and were called MacFarlane: Men from the Far land. When they were banished during the Clearances, this time by the English?, the MacFarlanes were taken to New Zealand, but not to the usual places...they were deposited at a very remote jagged coast...rumored to be where Rory Mohr landed.

Waipu Scottish These pioneers had created history by carrying out a double migration, firstly from Scotland to Nova Scotia in 1817 and 32 years later to Australia. Between 1853 and 1860, a total of six ships - the Margaret, Highland Lass, Gertrude, Spray, Breadalbane and the Ellen Lewis brought the families from Nova Scotia. The Margaret and the Highland Lass originally took them to Australia but after a time most of the families sailed on the Gazell to Waipu, New Zealand. Foundation of Waipu The Waipu Scots ship lists Waipu Memorial

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiki_(mythology)

Tūmatauenga, god of war, represents man, as does Tāne, whose name means 'man'

The saga of Taine Ruaridh Mhor is about a family banished from Scotland and forcibly deposited in South Westland during the reign of King Alexander I of Scotland. Two groups, one in the South Island and one in the North Island were isolated from kinfolk for 8 generations before being found again by Viking voyagers in the 13th century. Some young men were taken "home" to Scotland to get wives and returned to NZ. Others stayed in Scotland. A Hamilton family is descended from those that remained in Scotland and eventually made their way back here in the early 1950's.

Edited March 24, 2008 by crystal sage

[crystal sage]

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archi...ames/read/44381

GLOBAL RED HEADED MUMMIES WEARING TARTANS!!!

http://www.geocities.com/fairauthor/ChinaMummy.html

http://www.maravot.com/Etruscan_Phrases_c.html

Archeologists have commented on how the Tocharian fabrics matched Scottish tartans, and a similar relationship exists with some Baltic groups

http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:LhysWA...t=clnk&cd=4

The Scots declare their Scythian connections...

The Declaration of Arbroath

http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotland/arbroath.html

The Declaration of Arbroath was written in Latin and promulgated on April 6th, 1320, at Arbroath Abbey (on the east coast of Scotland, just north of St. Andrews, the home of golf). Its purpose was to convince Pope John XXII, resident in Avignon, France, that Scotland was an independent country. This rebutted the English claim to rule Scotland. Famed Scottish leader, Robert the Bruce, had defeated the English at Bannockburn in 1314, and recaptured Berwick-on-Tweed (a city on the border with England) from the English in 1319.

Particularly interesting is that the Declaration claims a connection between the Scots and the Scythians, and also mentions the Exodus of the Children of Israel from Egypt. The ancient tribe of the Scythians once lived in the area to which the "Lost Ten Tribes of Israel" were deported by the Assyrian Empire (according to the Bible and historical sources).

Another Scottish connection to the Scythians is that, according to legend, Andrew, one of Christ's apostles, preached to the Scythians. St. Andrew is the patron saint of Scotland. The Scottish flag contains a Cross of Saint Andrew.

For much more information, read "The Declaration of Arbroath" by Sir James Fergusson, Edinburgh University Press, 1970.

The Declaration of Arbroath (English Translation)

To the most Holy Father and Lord in Christ, the Lord John, by divine providence Supreme Pontiff of the Holy Roman and Universal Church, his humble and devout sons Duncan, Earl of Fife, Thomas Randolph, Earl of Moray, Lord of Man and of Annandale, Patrick Dunbar, Earl of March, Malise, Earl of Strathearn, Malcolm, Earl of Lennox, William, Earl of Ross, Magnus, Earl of Caithness and Orkney, and William, Earl of Sutherland; Walter, Steward of Scotland, William Soules, Butler of Scotland, James, Lord of Douglas, Roger Mowbray, David, Lord of Brechin, David Graham, Ingram Umfraville, John Menteith, guardian of the earldom of Menteith, Alexander Fraser, Gilbert Hay, Constable of Scotland, Robert Keith, Marischal of Scotland, Henry St Clair, John Graham, David Lindsay, William Oliphant, Patrick Graham, John Fenton, William Abernethy, David Wemyss, William Mushet, Fergus of Ardrossan, Eustace Maxwell, William Ramsay, William Mowat, Alan Murray, Donald Campbell, John Cameron, Reginald Cheyne, Alexander Seton, Andrew Leslie, and Alexander Straiton, and the other barons and freeholders and the whole community of the realm of Scotland send all manner of filial reverence, with devout kisses of his blessed feet.

Most Holy Father and Lord, we know and from the chronicles and books of the ancients we find that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread renown. They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous. Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today. The Britons they first drove out, the Picts they utterly destroyed, and, even though very often assailed by the Norwegians, the Danes and the English, they took possession of that home with many victories and untold efforts; and, as the historians of old time bear witness, they have held it free of all bondage ever since. In their kingdom there have reigned one hundred and thirteen kings of their own royal stock, the line unbroken a single foreigner.

The high qualities and deserts of these people, were they not otherwise manifest, gain glory enough from this: that the King of kings and Lord of lords, our Lord Jesus Christ, after His Passion and Resurrection, called them, even though settled in the uttermost parts of the earth, almost the first to His most holy faith. Nor would He have them confirmed in that faith by merely anyone but by the first of His Apostles -- by calling, though second or third in rank -- the most gentle Saint Andrew, the Blessed Peter's brother, and desired him to keep them under his protection as their patron forever.

The Most Holy Fathers your predecessors gave careful heed to these things and bestowed many favours and numerous privileges on this same kingdom and people, as being the special charge of the Blessed Peter's brother. Thus our nation under their protection did indeed live in freedom and peace up to the time when that mighty prince the King of the English, Edward, the father of the one who reigns today, when our kingdom had no head and our people harboured no malice or treachery and were then unused to wars or invasions, came in the guise of a friend and ally to harass them as an enemy. The deeds of cruelty, massacre, violence, pillage, arson, imprisoning prelates, burning down monasteries, robbing and killing monks and nuns, and yet other outrages without number which he committed against our people, sparing neither age nor sex, religion nor rank, no one could describe nor fully imagine unless he had seen them with his own eyes.

But from these countless evils we have been set free, by the help of Him Who though He afflicts yet heals and restores, by our most tireless Prince, King and Lord, the Lord Robert. He, that his people and his heritage might be delivered out of the hands of our enemies, met toil and fatigue, hunger and peril, like another Macabaeus or Joshua and bore them cheerfully. Him, too, divine providence, his right of succession according to or laws and customs which we shall maintain to the death, and the due consent and assent of us all have made our Prince and King. To him, as to the man by whom salvation has been wrought unto our people, we are bound both by law and by his merits that our freedom may be still maintained, and by him, come what may, we mean to stand.

Yet if he should give up what he has begun, and agree to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own rights and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King; for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom -- for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.

Therefore it is, Reverend Father and Lord, that we beseech your Holiness with our most earnest prayers and suppliant hearts, inasmuch as you will in your sincerity and goodness consider all this, that, since with Him Whose vice-gerent on earth you are there is neither weighing nor distinction of Jew and Greek, Scotsman or Englishman, you will look with the eyes of a father on the troubles and privation brought by the English upon us and upon the Church of God. May it please you to admonish and exhort the King of the English, who ought to be satisfied with what belongs to him since England used once to be enough for seven kings or more, to leave us Scots in peace, who live in this poor little Scotland, beyond which there is no dwelling-place at all, and covet nothing but our own. We are sincerely willing to do anything for him, having regard to our condition, that we can, to win peace for ourselves.

This truly concerns you, Holy Father, since you see the savagery of the heathen raging against the Christians, as the sins of Christians have indeed deserved, and the frontiers of Christendom being pressed inward every day; and how much it will tarnish your Holiness's memory if (which God forbid) the Church suffers eclipse or scandal in any branch of it during your time, you must perceive. Then rouse the Christian princes who for false reasons pretend that they cannot go to help of the Holy Land because of wars they have on hand with their neighbours. The real reason that prevents them is that in making war on their smaller neighbours they find quicker profit and weaker resistance. But how cheerfully our Lord the King and we too would go there if the King of the English would leave us in peace, He from Whom nothing is hidden well knows; and we profess and declare it to you as the Vicar of Christ and to all Christendom.

But if your Holiness puts too much faith in the tales the English tell and will not give sincere belief to all this, nor refrain from favouring them to our prejudice, then the slaughter of bodies, the perdition of souls, and all the other misfortunes that will follow, inflicted by them on us and by us on them, will, we believe, be surely laid by the Most High to your charge.

To conclude, we are and shall ever be, as far as duty calls us, ready to do your will in all things, as obedient sons to you as His Vicar; and to Him as the Supreme King and Judge we commit the maintenance of our cause, csating our cares upon Him and firmly trusting that He will inspire us with courage and bring our enemies to nought.

May the Most High preserve you to his Holy Church in holiness and health and grant you length of days.

Given at the monastery of Arbroath in Scotland on the sixth day of the month of April in the year of grace thirteen hundred and twenty and the fifteenth year of the reign of our King aforesaid.

Endorsed: Letter directed to our Lord the Supreme Pontiff by the community of Scotland.

Additional names written on some of the seal tags: Alexander Lamberton, Edward Keith, John Inchmartin, Thomas Menzies, John Durrant, Thomas Morham (and one illegible). Only 19 of the original 46 seal tags remain.

http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=37159

Keep in mind the Scottish weave found on the 6'4" Tocharian mummy.

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache...n&a...t=clnk&cd=1

Quote:

Have you seen the ancient tartans of the Tocharian Celts? Takla/Urumchi mummies from the Tocharian civilisation wore checked/tartan style clothes to their graves thousands of years ago.

http://www.mummytombs.com/mummylocat...p/xinjiang.htm

Quote:

Their burial fabrics (in unusual patterns and woven in unusual ways) and their Caucasian features suggest that they (and/or their ancestors) had come from Celtic tribes in Central Europe.

Reference also-

"Scythian Silver & Bronze Coins For Sale Inexpensively":

http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.p...ight=scythians

and "Thracian Gold-Exquisite Archaeological Artifacts Of White People":

http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.p...=scythian+gold

http://www.mummytombs.com/mummylocat...p/scythian.htm

Quote:

The Greek writer Herodotus visited the Scythians and described what they did when a king died. After digging a large, square grave,

they take the king's corpse and having opened the belly, and cleaned out the inside, fill the cavity with a preparation of chopped cypress, frankincense, parsley-seed, and anise-seed, after which they sew up the opening, enclose the body in wax, and placing it on a wagon, carry it about through all the different tribes.

On seeing the body, every man in the tribe had to sever a piece of his ear, cut his hair short, make a cut all the way around his arm, make a hole in his forehead and nose, and finally, as if this weren't enough, drive an arrow completely through his left hand.

http://www.andiskaulins.com/person.htm

Ancient Tocharian B language is similar to Latvian. Tocharian textiles - twills (Latvian rievots audums) - found on mummies in the Tarim Basin are dated to ca. 1000 BC. They are very similar to Latvian weaving at Lejasciems, even in the distances between the colored lines in the weaving patterns. Compare also the colors of the Tocharian twill to the colors of the Lejasciems coat of arms - they are the same.

This corresponds to observations by others that the Latvian Lielvarde Belt has a design similar to textiles found on Inca mummies in Peru. Lielvarde is some distance south and west of Lejasciems.

Edited March 24, 2008 by crystal sage

[crystal sage]

Taine Rory Mhor ) Taine Ruaridh Mhor (the big cattle farmer)

Slowly being deleted from records!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sco...nished_projects

Afd - St John's Roman Catholic Church Merged into Barrhead · Afd - List of places in the Tayside region of Scotland Kept; Afd - Taine Ruaridh Mhor Deleted ...

en.wikipedia.org/.../Completed_requests_and_finished_projects - 95k - Cached - Similar pages

Ar-Page1334

Articles for deletion/Taine Ruaridh Mhor, View Interesting Sites. Articles for deletion/Taint, View Interesting Sites. Articles for deletion/Taint (slang) ...

www.irazoo.com/InterestingSites/AllPages/Ar-Page1334.aspx - 250k - Cached - Similar pages

???

[SoCrazes]

Probably descendants of the original hunter gatherers that crossed the land bridge that used to connected the British Isles to mainland Europe.

There is much documented information in the book "Key of Hiram" that talks how the civilization on the British Isles could be the first civilization...outdating Mesopotamia.

[crystal sage]

More links tot the Scottish New Zealand connection

http://www.lugodoc.demon.co.uk/MYTH/MYTH01.HTM

The Ulster Cycle (or Ultonian or Connorian) deals with The Curse of Ulster (The Pangs), the reign of Conchobor Mac Nesa, King of Ulster at Emain Macha, his battles with the other three Irish provinces (Connacht, Leinster and Munster), his champion Cuchulainn and his fellow warriors of the Red Branch warband, and The Tain (The Cattle Raid of Cooley). This is by far the best bit in my opinion, and entirely pagan. It probably originated in the late La Tene period, the 3rd to 1st centuries BC.

http://www.mythicalireland.com/mythology/tain/index.html

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=li02AA...t-3X4&hl=en

http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_li...ussionID=163891

The Celts emerged as a group sometime around 1,000 BCE in Eastern Europe and Asia Minor. They were not a united or heterogeneous group, but a large collection of various clans sharing similar language, artistic styles, culture, and religion.

They spread across Europe, at their peak covering area from Ireland to Romania, leaving their distinctive impression where they went. Eventually, other groups took over, leaving the area around Britain and Ireland to be the stronghold of the Celtic world. This is the area that is, in most people's minds, the "Celtic lands."

Naming Convention

There is no commonly agreed-upon term for Celtic Reconstruction. Instead, that term (and its culture-specific derivatives, such as Gaelic Reconstruction) is used alongside various Celtic-language terms such as Senistrognata, Slighe na Durianne, or Aurrad.

Sacred Texts

There is no single sacred text for all of Celtic religion, or even for each of the respective sub-cultures. Each sub-culture has it's own collection of mythologies that, while sharing some similarities, also showed regional differences. The most well known include: Lebor Gabála Erenn ("Book of Invasions"; Irish), Tain bo Cuilgne ("Cattle Raid of Cooley"; Irish), Mabinogion (Welsh), and Barzaz Breiz ("Songs of Brittany"; Breton).

Basic Beliefs

Celtic beliefs are polytheistic at the core, normally worshipping a number of "pan-Celtic" deities as well as local/tribal deities. A certain level of animism is present as well, with a belief in local spirits, often associated with rivers and lakes. Likewise, there is also a form of ancestor-worship, venerating deceased ancestors and heroes. The Celtic worldview conceives of two contiguous worlds, the world we live in, and the Otherworld, home to the gods. Traffic between these two worlds is possible, with the assumption being that, at death, a person goes to the Otherworld. Many of the details and specific tenets are culture-dependant or even tribe-dependant (especially in terms of specific observances.)

The Celtic Languages

All told, there are six Celtic languages, though each one breaks down into different regional dialects as well. They are divided into two rough groups, the Goedelic languages (Irish, Scottish, and Manx), and the Brythonic languages (Welsh, Cornish, and Breton). All of these languages are in dire risk due to the limited number of speakers. There are several initiatives being taken to bolster the number of native speakers in hopes of preserving these languages.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/cool/cool06.htm

a fantastically detailed site here mentions how the Irish have been travelling the globe for a couple of thousand years how much of their history was protected...

http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/DRO_ECG/EARLY.html

Edited March 24, 2008 by crystal sage

[crystal sage]

a justified rant......

http://www.aracnet.com/~dcf/irnew/archives/001504.html

But the red headed giants, conveniently tucked away in repositories and vaults of Smithsonian and other museums, attest that we simply cannot take any academic opinion for granted. When I say opinion, I mean exactly that, although academe is passing off opinions as something more than they really are, however "educated" may be.

To make it more exciting, these is a substantial evidence that not only caucasoid types, but also negroid types were on the continent at some point. Olmec steles and big stone heads cannot be interpreted in any other form. The facial features are rendered so realistically that there cannot be any other interpretation. The La Venta heads thus indicate a migration of negroid element that manifested in Olmec culture--not only that, apparently, they were ruling class, otherwise there would be little reason for the labor expenditure on the statues, which are by no means small. Olmec stelae also depict clearly caucasoid types, with long beards. It is not clear if these were only visitors or inhabitants, but the world in ancient times was far busier than we imagine. I would be inclined to think that Phoenicians knew no bounds as seafaring is concerned and went where only some men went before. Intriguing is the fact that most hair-raising stories about dangers of travel across seas, including the descriptions of terrifying animals, can be traced back to Phoenicians. One wonders why? Protectionism at works? Quite likely.

Then there are Tuatha da Dannan, mysterious race that invaded Ireland a millenium before Celts appeared on the scene. They came from west, from the sea, so the tales say. Red-haired giants. Not unlike the red-haired giant of the central plains, spoken about by Amerindians and also found throughout the mound burial sites in the oldest layers, during the excavations in 1800's, with some patches of hair still preserved. Some experts may say that the color may be due to leeching and replacement by iron oxides form the soil, but that has one little problem, it would cut across the board, so the specimen from decidedly Amerindian stock in the same layer would have red hair as well.

Well, then there is this petroglyph in Australia, which depicts a boat with some people in it, and one of them is a bearded caucasoid man with a head dress reminding of mideastern head wear--either Mesopotamian or Phoenician tiara. Go figure.

On New Zealand, traces of pre-Maori settlements are known, yet presently in PC denial, of affinity decidedly to Celtic culture or perhaps its precursor. Unfortunately, Maori had a profound craving for human flesh and disposed of the supply rather quickly.

Or take, for example, Negev script. It appears in all corners of the world and it seems that it's in its earliest form, that can be dated to at least 6000 BCE. You can find it around Mississippi Valey, near Sao Paulo, in Western Africa, Indonesian archipelago or on Pacific Ocean's islands. Odd, isn't it?

Seems that ancients had no regard for future archeologists and anthropologists and moved around as they pleased, to utterly confuse the descendants. If they knew what our "educated" academe came up with, they would find it more than amusing.

Posted by: alphasheep on July 31, 2003

[hetrodoxly]

That was a magnificent archaeological find... the site reminded me of the Mima mounds!!!

Here's an artist impression showing all the artefacts found in the Sutton-Hoo burial excavation.

[jaylemurph]

Ancient Tocharian B language is similar to Latvian.

No it's not, really. They're both Indo-European languages, but they're as far distantly related (temporally and structurally) as any two languages in that family can be. It's almost exactly like saying Phrygian and English are similar.

As usual, you post some daft statement with no back-up -- apparently not even the crank who wrote this could find anything to support this ridiculous claim.

--Jaylemurph

[crystal sage]

http://www.lundyisleofavalon.co.uk/history/traderoutes.htm

"The collapse of Roman Communications. during the first half of the fifth century was followed by the resumption of the Irish Sea trade routes of the later prehistoric periods. The Irish Sea became a unifying factor between Ireland, South Wales, south-west Britain and Brittany with contacts reaching as far as the East Mediterranean. This is shown particularly by the importation of jars of wine or oil from the Eastern Mediterranean to south-west Britain; sherds of these vessels have already been found at Tintagel, Lundy, Glastonbury Tor, and in South Wales at Dinas Powys. This Trade in luxuries implies the existence of a wealthy and well connected aristocracy.'' The Archaeology of Exmoor'

Three of these sites are acknowledged to have been the citadels of native princes; Tintagel, Glastonbury Tor (1964-5 excavations conducted by Philip Rhatz) and Dinas Powys.

'We are compelled ..... to assume a direct long-distance influence between the Mediterranean world and Britain.' (Nils Aberg, 'The Occident and the Orient.)

Lundy, with its central position in the Bristol Channel, would have provided a safe haven, a secure base for the merchants.

All this indicates that Northwestern Europe and the Eastern Mediterranean were in close commercial contact from the before the sack of Troy by the Greeks until the fall of Tyre and Sidon in the devastation of the Middle East that was the Crusades.

Some three thousand years, give or take the odd century.

With trade also go ideas, colonists, travellers, refugees.

According to an Irish martyrology 'Disert Ulidh' in Ulster is the site of the grave of seven Egyptian monks.

Irish monks are known to have visited Egypt.

[Celtic Spirit]

I may be. There are lots of people on UM with wonky ideas about history.

--Jaylemurph

No, archaeology does that. As I said, history is interpretive: it tells us /why/ things happened, not /what/ things happened. It's causative.

What archaeologists find is part of history. Historians tell what happened, when and where based on what can be found to support their claims.

That's an awfully long sentence, and it loses come of its coherence. [quote/

The sentence doesn't loose coherence. Perhaps you do.

Tt there is a whole history of the human race that is "true" or "correct".

What made you assume that I thought that? I had just said that certain countries exagerate intentionally, not because there is an absolute truth that they are missing.

Edited March 27, 2008 by Celtic Spirit

[jaylemurph]

What archaeologists find is part of history. Historians tell what happened, when and where based on what can be found to support their claims.

I'm not going to argue with you; you seem to get it mostly right, anyway. But although they both deal with the past, history isn't /facts/ and what archaeologists do isn't /history/, nor would any archaeologist claim that it is, no more than a veterinarian claim to be a physician, even though the fields are related.

The sentence doesn't loose coherence. Perhaps you do.

No; part -- the biggest part -- of my profession is writing and editing. I know "clear" when I see it, and that sentence wasn't it. But again, I don't think it's worth arguing over.

--Jaylemurph