I created a new world religion

[The Mule]

PT Barnum is not suprised.

[DigitalSentinal]

PT Barnum is not suprised.

One of the few instances where Wikipedia made good on its promise.

Well, yeah, I assume also that this is a great fib, but what the heck - it's plausible. In theory at least.

[Shepwood]

One of my ex girlfriends was a Mormon, and thus I became interested in her religion. There's a wealth of information available about the history of the mormon church and how the religion began. I do not want to offend anyone of the Mormon faith, I have a high regard for all Mormons and I do not think their church is bad - It seems to work for a great number of people. That said, I believe the church was begun in much the same way as this story describes. Joseph Smith didn't have a Ouija board, but there are many ways to tap into these other worlds, worlds which seem to be brimming with entities who are eager to mess with our heads. One account has Joseph smith placing a seer stone in his hat, and placing the hat over his face to keep out all light. The words of his bible (Book of Mormon) would then appear in the darkness and he dictated them to an individual who would write down exactly what was said. I think the islamic Book of Quran had a similar origin. Muhammed meditated and the words came to him. I think both of these guys were duped. They may have believed that the words were coming from a God, but it was really just a Ouija-type entity.

During one of my ouija board experiences (actually my only one) I and a girl friend made contact with a mischievious character. We asked his name, and he responded "Jehova." I recognized this as the name of God and immediately doubted that we were communicating with a God. It was the only name he/it ever gave.

When Joseph Smith was a young man, he was confused about which religion was true. So one night, while alone in his room, he asked God which religion was true. An "angel" appeared and told him that none of the religions were true, and thus began Mormonism - "the only true religion". Notice this dialogue began when Joseph asked a question into the darkness. I think when you do this, pretty much anything can answer - like a ouija board.

I think I know what principle A, and principle B, and the Effect C in this story is referring to. I don't know how it is created, but I am familiar with the effect (as are nearly all Mormons). I asked my girlfriend (at the time) why she had such a deep and profound belief in her religion. (You can not rescue a Mormon from their religion {or an islamic for that matter} because there faith is based on personal emotional testimony.) She said that when she was initiated into the LDS religion she was asked to place her hand on the Book of Mormon, and to ask for a personal testimony that words contained in the book were the truth, blah, blah. She then received her personal testimony. She describes it as highly-emotional religious experience, something that cannot be removed. I believe her. There is something to this. It's difficult to understand, for a non-religious person, how people can become so intensly passionate about their religions. People kill, people leave their families, people do the strangest things in the name of their religion - as we all know. Well, principle A is placing your hand on the book (or whatever), principal B is asking whatever authority for personal testimony that the document is correct and truthful, and effect C is the resulting emotional experience that will forever bond that person to the religion. Again, I don't know how this works. Whether it is real or fake, it seems like some kind of spiritual stuff happens, it is evidently believable to those who participate.

[Irish]

To me the blind leading the blind is far more palatable then someone who deceives for monetary personal gain. I believe what I believe from personal experience and have seen evidence that supports what I believe for over 25 years. I am supported by others I trust who have had the same experiences.

I would never forgive myself for intentionally deceiving others for my own financial gain. There are suckers born every day as PT Barnum states, but I would not risk my mortal soul in deceiving others nor would I do it out of common decency and respect for my fellow man. A lie is a lie and a liar is just that and is not someone I would call a friend or even associate with. Even if I was totally wrong with what I believe I can honestly say I did not intend to deceive anyone but spoke the truth as I knew it.

Irish

[MUM24/7]

, I will never reveal the name of the religion I created because A: I am bound by an air-tight legal contract to never do so, and B: My entire private world would be instantly exploded if everyone found out it was I who created it.

Next time I visit my local bookstore and head straight for the aisle labelled 'Religions : Flavour of The Month', I'll look for the book with grammatical errors and I'll know it's yours......

The above highlighted sentence should read, "My entire private world would explode in an instance......" OR "My entire private world would instantly explode..."

Don't give up your day job....

[jpjoe]

There are many other ways of earning money without harming, or better yet, deceiving other people.

I'd only do what Ken did, assuming it's all true, if it was a life and death situation or something similar and there is absolutely no other way to go around it besides performing the job.

I wouldn’t do it even for $1B, honestly. I've turned down many similar offers that could've made my life a breeze. Call it stupid, but I'd rather be an asset to the whole community rather than to be its deceiver. Doing such things just for the sake of money is kind of shallow if you ask me. Besides, I have enough financial provisions -no need to be greedy.

Though I wonder what Ken's real intention is in writing this article...

Edited March 18, 2008 by jpjoe

[The Mule]

I think the point of the thread has completely derailed. It's not about the money or deception - it's the idea that a fictional religion is being BELIEVED by so many people!

[IronGhost]

Wow -- so many interesting and provocative comments! I'll have much to say soon .... I'm extremely busy with some projects at the moment, but I'll get back shortly. Thanks, everyone, for your very direct comments.

I will say briefly that the comments of Irish reminds me of when I was growing up a Catholic little boy, and when I would get in trouble -- frequently -- with our wonderful priest, Father Montgomery.

Ah, well -- more later.

Edited March 18, 2008 by IronGhost

[The Mule]

Hey is that a Stones quote under your avi? Monkey Man?

[IronGhost]

Hey is that a Stones quote under your avi? Monkey Man?

YES!! Finally, after more than two years, someone finally got that!!!!!!!!! NICE!

As another line in that song, Monkey Man, goes, which is suddenly appropriate to this thread:

"I hope we're not to messianic or a trifle to Satanic..."

[Irish]

Wow -- so many interesting and provocative comments! I'll have much to say soon .... I'm extremely busy with some projects at the moment, but I'll get back shortly. Thanks, everyone, for your very direct comments.

I will say briefly that the comments of Irish reminds me of when I was growing up a Catholic little boy, and when I would get in trouble -- frequently -- with our wonderful priest, Father Montgomery.

Ah, well -- more later.

What you have done Mr Ken Korczak is unethical as a professional writer as well as immoral and illegal in most countries. I am asking you to step forward and reply to my rebuttal And by the way I am not even Catholic so you may be caught with your pants down but you have no fear from this father.

[jpjoe]

I think the point of the thread has completely derailed. It's not about the money or deception - it's the idea that a fictional religion is being BELIEVED by so many people!

As to any story, there are many sides to discuss. In the case of the article, money-deception and fictional religion are just a few parts.

[primordial]

6,602,224,175 ppl on earth..so many religions and this one of them

[(Moonlight)]

Whether true or not, I did enjoy reading the article.

By the way... I think... that maybe this made-up religion is a lot better than others.

Whether or not it is a bad thing to create a new religion, I think it is good that he at least created a nice religion. Not one of those ones that are... just plain horrible. It doesn't promote fighting or anything like that, and doesn't have a God. It's neutral.

And you people can argue with me all you want, but I think that neutral is good. I mean, from what you said in the article... it didn't promote horrible things and such. Or (I'm not quite sure on this)promise that you're bad and you go to hell, good and you go to heaven. The heaven/hell concept is ridiculous, in my opinion, and assuming one day I have a religion, I will not worship someone who puts his own creations on earth and sends them to hell when they've done things wrong... for eternity.

That's why I like this religion, made up or not. However... I'm not too sure I like the deception part of it.

Well, whether it's just the religion that's a lie or the entire article, good job on writing it. I want to be an author myself... so I take inspiration from wherever I can get it. Some of your articles (especially the Ouija Board ones) really got me interested. I hope one day when I'm old enough to start that I can keep people going like that too. Loved the article. (though again, not to sure I like the deception for money part of it though)

Please write more soon!

Peace,

(Moonlight)

[Leonardo]

An interesting story, IronGhost.

Did you ever watch "The Truman Show"?

Did you think the premise ethical?

Edited March 18, 2008 by Leonardo

[Moon Demon]

People believe this? Scary at how some people can be so gullible.

[goalienan]

People believe this? Scary at how some people can be so gullible.

Hi Moon Demon, you look fairly new here so welcome to UM....I don't think it's a matter of members being gullible, more so intrigued...And whether the story is true or not it's a good read..Iron Ghost has been postiing stories of his experiences with the ouiji board for sometime now....You can check out the seach if your interested...He always wrote under the "paranormal" forum....

[bee]

[There are many false religions out there and quite possibly only one that is right. Most were created because the founder truly believed he/her was spreading the truth and believed that what they were doing for the betterment of mankind.

Anyone is at liberty to talk about.....and spread around what they believe the truth to be.....so maybe

the responsibility is on the receiver to be careful what they believe.....rather than the 'spreader'...who's

motives we can never be 100% sure about.....and in the case of old religions...are lost in the mists of

time.....

Although IronGhost was paid and freely admits this....this might not be his only motive....and anyone

taking his new religion to heart....might gain something. We don't know. From reading other posts by

IronGhost....I don't think he would deliberately set out to hurt or harm....we don't know the level of

deception because we don't know what the 'religion' says or teaches.

[Irish]

The interesting thing about deception is that it is a revolving door. If the story is as good as you believe and attracts thousands of followers willing to pay good money, you can expect a return visit from your banana eating friends.

Because then you will be a liability to them. If they are willing to pay good money for deception don’t expect them to have the morals not to turn it against you. Remember you are the millstone of this religion and the only one who can expose them, better hope that they aren’t successful with it.

Irish

[DigitalSentinal]

Well hell - if it's all just a weed trip, then nice job, Iron! I personally doubted you would be allowed to even mention your part in such an adventure if anyone had truly commissioned you to create a world religion. You would be held on a very tight leash. I personally doubted even more that anyone would be able to create one that did not include any elements from existing philosophies (I still don't. Some archetypes are simply too ancient and powerful for the human psyche to forget). But hey - if you like to make random phone calls to the Universe and see who responds, then good on ya. You had me fooled there for a while.

[coppertop]

Hmmmm.....is it such a big deal if this religion is a lie? There can be a lot of truth in a lie. If many of the tenets of this religion are based on "truth" is the religion really false? I dunno... again it is hard to compare without actually knowing which religion this is that IronGhost created.

I see scraps of "truth" (spiritual, moral, etc.) in all religions. The truth is the truth no matter where it comes from. There are many instances where the various religions of the world speak to truth.

I don't know...just babbling here. Very thought provoking discussion thus far!

[DigitalSentinal]

There are two kinds of falsehoods attached to this thread:

1) The first is whether or not Iron actually WAS commissioned to create a world religion. He seems to get off on disseminating facts, so it's a toss-up as to whether or not his story is true. I tend to think it isn't and he just likes to explore the writer's field by messing with people. Fun pastime.

2) The second is whether or not his "religion" (of which precious few details are even shared or outlined) contains truth. I have no opinion on this, as he hasn't really shared anything about its makeup or nature. I personally found the same to be true with Scientology in Washington D.C., as the people there never really shared what they believed in or ascribed to, merely that in order to rise up the ranks you had to buy a pile of books, maybe meet a few celebrities, and one day live on a giant yacht and get to pamper Cruise's feet all day with lavender petals.

Edited March 18, 2008 by DigitalSentinal

[IronGhost]

What you have done Mr Ken Korczak is unethical as a professional writer as well as immoral and illegal in most countries. I am asking you to step forward and reply to my rebuttal And by the way I am not even Catholic so you may be caught with your pants down but you have no fear from this father.

First of, some housekeeping, and for the record, to all those who have e-mailed me:

Once again, everyone can stop e-mailing me and asking me if the religion I created is Eckankar. Again, I did not create Eckankar, and I was only a little boy when Eckankar emerged here in Minnesota in the 1960s.

I also did not create Falun Gong. I can understand why so many people think I created Falun Gong, given my background, and since it was created in 1992, but I did not create Falun Gong. That was created by Li Hongzhi. -- I also was not hired by Li Hongzhi to create Falun Gong on his behalf. As far as I know, Li Hongzhi created Falun Gong on his own.

*****

Now ----

Let’s get one thing straight -- In creating a new religion for my client, I did absolutely nothing unethical, legally, morally, philosophically, or any other way. That’s patently obvious.

To call my new religion a "lie" is absurd.

FIRST:

I live in a place called the United States of America, and in this land, we have something called freedom of religion. We can practice any religion we want, or none at all. We are also free to invent a new religion whenever we want to. This is not frowned upon by my government.

I’m also perfectly within my rights to create a new religion for someone else and be paid for it. There is no law against it, and in fact, my government system would go out of its way to protect this right for me.

In fact, one of the Founding Fathers of the United States, Thomas Jefferson, invented a new religion. He did so by editing and rewriting the King James version of the Bible, creating what is known as the Jefferson Bible. In doing so, Jefferson, in effect, created a new kind of religion which is sometimes called an American form of “Rationalism.”

There are churches in existence today which use the Jefferson Bible as it’s central element of belief.

This was a perfectly ethical thing for Jefferson to do. It’s also interesting to note that, just as my client hired me to create a new religion, Jefferson also hired out the job of writing a new kind of Bible to someone else -- to the scientist Joseph Priestly.

SECOND:

What I did was 100% ethical.

* No one has been harmed by my new religion

* No one CAN be harmed by new religion

* No one can be forced to join my new religion against his/her will

* No one is required to donate money to my new religion

* Donating money in my new religion is frowned upon

* No one is required to obey religious authority figures

* My new religion has no hierarchy, or powerful people

* Anyone can freely opt out of practicing my new religion whenever they want

* There is absolutely no coercion in my new religion

* My religion makes no false claims

* I have stated my new religion is based on bulls**t, and no attempt is made to hide this from those who would choose to practice my new religion

For example, in my new religion, I take great pains to remind people that the C Effect, although it seems real, is fictional -- but this hardly matters -- because we all use fictional tools of the mind every day to accomplish things.

One example is the Coriolis Force. Other examples are the Centrifugal Force and the Centripetal Force. These forces simply are not real -- they’re fictional, yet they have many uses in physics.

Of course, perhaps the ultimate fictional something we use and rely upon every day is “time.” Still, this bogus quality of the universe is very useful in many ways.

If my new religion contains bogus concepts, well, this is perfectly reasonable, and in no way deceptive.

THIRD:

What about the fact that origin and creation of my new religion will remain a secret from those who practice it? Isn’t this deceptive?

The answer is: Absolutely and unequivocally not.

It is not deceptive because it simply does not matter who created this religion, or who didn’t. For example, the “bible” I wrote is published anonymously -- like many books are published anonymously.

If people DON’T WANT to buy, read or trust a book which is published anonymously, they are free NOT TO do so.

If people WANT to buy, read and trust a book which is published anonymously, they are free TO do so.

As you can see, the freedom of choice always remains in the hands of the end user.

Therefore, no one is being deceived. They simply are invited to make a choice based on their own judgment. They can choose the believe my “bible” is divinely inspired if they want to. Or they can choose to believe it’s merely the work of an ordinary mortal if they want to.

Please note, unlike most other religions, my “bible” makes no grandiose claims -- such as the Christian Bible claims to have been written by the Supreme Creator of the Universe.

The Christian Bible makes this claim without an ounce of proof -- and even though there are more than 4,000 documented errors in the Christian Bible.

The Christian Bible asks it’s believers to accept what the Bible says on “faith” and by not seeking to investigate facts, or through show of solid proof.

My new religion “bible” does just the opposite. It asks people to never accept any precept offered unless they can prove it to themselves. My bible makes no claim to have been written by the Supreme Creator of the Universe, nor any other minor or lesser God, and not even aliens or extraterrestrials, such as the Raelians do.

You will also not that in my original article, I said that my new religion is “not necessarily atheistic.” This is true. That’s because the members of my new religion are free to entertain god concepts if they want to -- even if they choose to accept the Christian god, or the Jewish god, or the Muslim god -- that’s not a problem

-- it was vitally important to me in the construction of my religion that all members retain complete freedom of thought.

FOURTH;

What about the fact that I accepted money to do this work?

Well, as I have already shown that nothing illegal or unethical was done, why should I not be paid for this interesting project? It makes no sense.

To call the money I was paid “blood money” is utterly preposterous.

Catholic priests, Lutheran Ministers, Muslim Imams, Jewish Rabbis -- they are all paid for their work -- and there job is to promote and spread their brands of religion.

And we all know what kind of funny games some of the above sometimes play on their “flocks.”

In my new religion, no such funny games are being played on innocent people, because in my new religion, everyone is empowered to think for themselves and retain complete control over their own destinies.

NOW CONSIDER THIS:

The fact is, just about every person the planet already has a religion. Some might claim that an atheist has no religion -- but this is a distinction completely without meaning.

But again -- take the Catholic religion. About 500 years ago, a new religion splintered off from it called Lutheranism.

Since then, Lutheranism split of into about 25,000 other “brands” of Protestantism. Today, there are so many “brands” of Protestantism, it’s nearly impossible to make an accurate count of them all.

Even before the great Protestant schism, the Catholic Church itself split in two: Into the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox “brands.”

Of course, there are tend of thousands of other kinds of religions -- each of them with their sub splinters, which continue to divide and splinter off all the time.

In addition to this, new religions are being created at a rate of, I don’t know, at least several dozen per year -- such as Raelism, Eckankar, Falun Gong, Scientology -- and the list goes on by the thousands.

My new religion is just another one thrown on the pile. The only thing that is going to happen when people adopt my new religion is that they will exchange their current religion for my new religion -- and in my opinion -- everyone who adopts the religion I created will probably have his/her life improved.

EVERYONE PLEASE NOTE:

Irish compared my creation of a new religion to nothing less the creation of the atomic bomb.

This is a manifestly ridiculous statement, and it would be proper to judge Irish by this statement, which reflects upon his state of mind.

Irish, your comments are clearly absurd. Since you are a moderator, I hereby report you to yourself for your ridiculous attacks on my character -- I suggest you ban yourself for two weeks.

[DigitalSentinal]

Well, personally, if you were really commissioned to create a religion, I doubt you would even be allowed to discuss it, since this forum post would be brought up eventually to connect you to it - and (LOL) you would most likely wind up with several thousand very p***ed off and disillusioned people on your hands.

Unless of course your benefactors are in on the whole "reducing the human population by three quarters by the year 20XX" thing and they plan to make people grasp onto the religion out of a need to belong and desperation.

[Leonardo]

IronGhost,

Now that you have created this religion and those who have joined are fully indoctrinated, if those who you created this for decide to slowly change this religion so, for example, the gifting/donation of monies is no longer frowned upon would you be happy you had no part to play in the taking advantage of the indoctrinated?