Dutch MP posts Islam film on web

[KingTomis]

haven't you ever read Angels and Demons? Bunch of christians whacking particles together.

[__Kratos__]

haven't you ever read Angels and Demons? Bunch of christians whacking particles together.

I did, why I used CERN

[__Kratos__]

Dutch anti-Islam film "provocative, but not illegal"

A Dutch court has ruled that a highly-critical film about Islam is legal, and its maker is allowed to exercise his freedom of expression. The film is called "Fitna", which can be translated from Arabic as "strife". It compares Islam to fascism and the Prophet Mohammed to a barbarian.

Islamic groups in the Netherlands had asked the court to ban such comments, arguing they would incite hatred and violence. Muslims were outraged at Dutch MP Geert Wilders' film. It also accuses the Koran of condoning violence, by intercutting verses from the book with images of terrorist attacks.

The Dutch Islamic Federation had wanted it banned outright, but the court in The Hague said Wilders should be able to have his say, even if his views are extreme. A court spokesman said: "There is a grey area involving some of Wilders' statements, which could be provocative, but he is not crossing the line."

Wilders defends his right to criticise growing Islamic influence in the West, and says his film has not gone too far.

Article here: Link

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Awesome

[Dusty Digital]

Why would I feel soiled utilizing a system that developed from Persian, Indian (specificly Hindu) and Greek sources, developed by Muḥammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī , a Persian ?

Meow Purr

The Muslim[11] Persian mathematician Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-khwārizmī was a faculty member of the "House of Wisdom" (Bait al-hikma) in Baghdad, which was established by Al-Mamun.

By the way ships-cat, I wasn't even aware that you hated islamic civilization.

What I don't get is that anything remotely of value coming out of the middle east is called an "islamic invention" instead of an arab one or from a country. Like for example... I'm drinking Turkish coffee right now, not Islamic coffee. So their products can be labeled by country but in casual talk it's all islamic? Insane. Fyi, this cofee is fantastic.

That's like calling the CERN a christian invention center because it's based in Europe.

"In the history of mathematics, Islamic mathematics refers to the mathematics developed in the Islamic world between 622 and 1600, that is, that part of the world where Islam was the dominant religious and cultural influence. While most scientists in this period were Muslims and Arabic was the dominant language, contributions were made by people of different ethnic groups (Arabs, Persians, Turks, Moors) and religions (Muslims, Christians, Sabians, Jews, Zoroastrians).[1] The center of Islamic mathematics was located in present-day Iraq and Iran, but at its greatest extent stretched from Turkey, North Africa and Spain in the west, to India in the east.[2]"

Both sources from wikipedia.

Good point. How's the contribution to international science since the rise of fundamentalism?

Probably nil, because fundamentalist Islam isn't much good at appreciating any sort of logic outside of its own twisted one.

[__Kratos__]

"In the history of mathematics, Islamic mathematics refers to the mathematics developed in the Islamic world between 622 and 1600, that is, that part of the world where Islam was the dominant religious and cultural influence. While most scientists in this period were Muslims and Arabic was the dominant language, contributions were made by people of different ethnic groups (Arabs, Persians, Turks, Moors) and religions (Muslims, Christians, Sabians, Jews, Zoroastrians).[1] The center of Islamic mathematics was located in present-day Iraq and Iran, but at its greatest extent stretched from Turkey, North Africa and Spain in the west, to India in the east.[2]"

Both sources from wikipedia.

Seems a bit fishy to me that around 12 years after the koran had been "revealed" to the world but still wasn't finished or even bound yet they already had a dedicated center for math going.

But again, it was the arab world not the islamic world that came up with those ideas. Seems labeling everything that comes out of the area as islamic is a way to keep control of it from the faith or something.

Edited April 8, 2008 by __Kratos__

[Dusty Digital]

Seems a bit fishy to me that around 12 years after the koran had been "revealed" to the world but still wasn't finished or even bound yet they already had a dedicated center for math going.

But again, it was the arab world not the islamic world that came up with those ideas. Seems labeling everything that comes out of the area as islamic is a way to keep control of it from the faith or something.

That might be, though my understanding is that islamic culture at the time was quite supportive of science, specially math, compared to its christian counterpart in Europe. It would be wrong to attribute scientific accomplishments to a certain religion, but I expect the muslim faith played a big part in that time period's cultural atmosphere.

And where did you get the idea that a dedicated center for math was going 12 years after the koran had been revealed? Once again from wikipedia:

"The first century of the Islamic Arab Empire saw almost no scientific or mathematical achievements since the Arabs, with their newly conquered empire, had not yet gained any intellectual drive and research in other parts of the world had faded. In the second half of the eighth century Islam had a cultural awakening, and research in mathematics and the sciences increased.[4]"

For example Muḥammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī, the mathematician I (and ships-cat) mentioned made most of his contributions about around 820-830.

Edited April 8, 2008 by Dusty Digital

[ships-cat]

The Muslim[11] Persian mathematician Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-khwārizmī was a faculty member of the "House of Wisdom" (Bait al-hikma) in Baghdad, which was established by Al-Mamun.

By the way ships-cat, I wasn't even aware that you hated islamic civilization.

I don't, in the abstract.

I DO, however, get annoyed at some of the propoganda about Islamic culture and it's contributions towards - in this case - science.

I am also very wary of a culture that seeks to make me a second-class citizen (Dhimmi), or kill me.

"In the history of mathematics, Islamic mathematics refers to the mathematics developed in the Islamic world between 622 and 1600, that is, that part of the world where Islam was the dominant religious and cultural influence. While most scientists in this period were Muslims and Arabic was the dominant language, contributions were made by people of different ethnic groups (Arabs, Persians, Turks, Moors) and religions (Muslims, Christians, Sabians, Jews, Zoroastrians).[1] The center of Islamic mathematics was located in present-day Iraq and Iran, but at its greatest extent stretched from Turkey, North Africa and Spain in the west, to India in the east.[2]"

Don't forget Astronomy. The R C Church REALLY let the side down here. It evolved a dogma that the sun rotated around the earth, which stunted the developement of Astronomy in the West. The Caliphate was under no such restriction, and astronomy flourished for a while.

Sadly, both then went into decline. The "Islamic" world failed to move from algebra to Calculus, massivly hindering their ability to model the real world with mathmatics. Astronomy started to stagnate as the Islamic industrial base could not produce more refined optics for telescopes, limiting the ability of the Astronomers to observe. (actually, the maths and the astronomy go hand-in-hand; one supports the other).

Meow Purr.

[Dusty Digital]

I don't, in the abstract.

I DO, however, get annoyed at some of the propoganda about Islamic culture and it's contributions towards - in this case - science.

I am also very wary of a culture that seeks to make me a second-class citizen (Dhimmi), or kill me.

Don't forget Astronomy. The R C Church REALLY let the side down here. It evolved a dogma that the sun rotated around the earth, which stunted the developement of Astronomy in the West. The Caliphate was under no such restriction, and astronomy flourished for a while.

Sadly, both then went into decline. The "Islamic" world failed to move from algebra to Calculus, massivly hindering their ability to model the real world with mathmatics. Astronomy started to stagnate as the Islamic industrial base could not produce more refined optics for telescopes, limiting the ability of the Astronomers to observe. (actually, the maths and the astronomy go hand-in-hand; one supports the other).

Meow Purr.

Well, I'm sure there is propaganda that exaggerates Islamic culture's contribution towards science (and other things). My main reason for mentioning its contribution to mathematics was to point out that islamic culture has in the past contributed to science. How significant those contributions are can be disputed, I just felt that some people here were insinuating that everything important has been discovered and developed by western nations, and that islam hence has some sort of built-in inability to support scientific research. I think that inability may apply to certain fundamentalist sects, but not to islam as a whole (atleast any more than it applies to christians).

[Pinky Floyd]

"In the history of mathematics, Islamic mathematics refers to the mathematics developed in the Islamic world between 622 and 1600, that is, that part of the world where Islam was the dominant religious and cultural influence. While most scientists in this period were Muslims and Arabic was the dominant language, contributions were made by people of different ethnic groups (Arabs, Persians, Turks, Moors) and religions (Muslims, Christians, Sabians, Jews, Zoroastrians).[1] The center of Islamic mathematics was located in present-day Iraq and Iran, but at its greatest extent stretched from Turkey, North Africa and Spain in the west, to India in the east.[2]"

Both sources from wikipedia.

Probably nil, because fundamentalist Islam isn't much good at appreciating any sort of logic outside of its own twisted one.

Actually..Most mathmatics started with the Egyptians (waaay, waay before muhammed..)

Algebra may divided into "classical algebra" (equation solving or "find the unknown number" problems) and "abstract algebra", also called "modern algebra" (the study of groups, rings, and fields). Classical algebra has been developed over a period of 4000 years. Abstract algebra has only appeared in the last 200 years.

The development of algebra is outlined in these notes under the following headings: Egyptian algebra, Babylonian algebra, Greek geometric algebra, Diophantine algebra, Hindu algebra, Arabic algebra, European algebra since 1500, and modern algebra. Since algebra grows out of arithmetic, recognition of new numbers - irrationals, zero, negative numbers, and complex numbers - is an important part of its history.

The development of algebraic notation progressed through three stages: the rhetorical (or verbal) stage, the syncopated stage (in which abbreviated words were used), and the symbolic stage with which we are all familiar.

The materials presented here are adapted from many sources including Burton, Kline's Mathematical Development From Ancient to Modern Times, Boyer's A History of Mathematics , and the essay on "The History of Algebra" by Baumgart in Historical Topics for the Mathematics Classroom - the 31st yearbook of the N.C.T.M.

Egyptian Algebra

Much of our knowledge of ancient Egyptian mathematics, including algebra, is based on the Rhind papyrus. This was written about 1650 B.C. and is thought to represent the state of Egyptian mathematics of about 1850 B.C. They could solve problems equivalent to a linear equation in one unknown. Their method was what is now called the "method of false position." Their algebra was rhetorical, that is, it used no symbols. Problems were stated and solved verbally.

The Cairo Papyrus of about 300 B.C. indicates that by this time the Egyptians could solve some problems equivalent to a system of two second degree equations in two unknowns. Egyptian algebra was undoubtedly r******ed by their cumbersome method of handling fractions.

Babylonian Algebra

The mathematics of the Old Babylonian Period (1800 - 1600 B.C.) was more advanced that that of Egypt. Their "excellent sexagesimal [numeration system]. . . led to a highly developed algebra" [Kline]. They had a general procedure equivalent to solving quadratic equations, although they recognized only one root and that had to be positive. In effect, they had the quadratic formula. They also dealt with the equivalent of systems of two equations in two unknowns. They considered some problems involving more than two unknowns and a few equivalent to solving equations of higher degree.

There was some use of symbols, but not much. Like the Egyptians, their algebra was essentially rhetorical. The procedures used to solve problems were taught through examples and no reasons or explanations were given. Also like the Egyptians they recognized only positive rational numbers, although they did find approximate solutions to problems which had no exact rational solution.

Greek Geometrical Algebra

The Greeks of the classical period, who did not recognize the existence of irrational numbers, avoided the problem thus created by representing quantities as geometrical magnitudes. Various algebraic identities and constructions equivalent to the solution of quadratic equations were expressed and proven in geometric form. In content there was little beyond what the Babylonians had done, and because of its form geometrical algebra was of little practical value. This approach r******ed progress in algebra for several centuries. The significant achievement was in applying deductive reasoning and describing general procedures.

Diophantine Algebra

The later Greek mathematician, Diophantus (fl. 250 A.D.), represents the end result of a movement among Greeks (Archimedes, Apollonius, Ptolemy, Heron, Nichomachus) away from geometrical algebra to a treatment which did not depend upon geometry either for motivation or to bolster its logic. He introduced the syncopated style of writing equations, although, as we will mention below, the rhetorical style remained in common use for many more centuries to come.

Diophantus' claim to fame rests on his Arithmetica, in which he gives a treatment of indeterminate equations - usually two or more equations in several variables that have an infinite number of rational solutions. Such equations are known today as "Diophantine equations". He had no general methods. Each of the 189 problems in the Arithmetica is solved by a different method. He accepted only positive rational roots and ignored all others. When a quadratic equation had two positive rational roots he gave only one as the solution. There was no deductive structure to his work.

Hindu Algebra

The successors of the Greeks in the history of mathematics were the Hindus of India. The Hindu civilization dates back to at least 2000 B.C. Their record in mathematics dates from about 800 B.C., but became significant only after influenced by Greek achievements. Most Hindu mathematics was motivated by astronomy and astrology. A base ten, positional notation system was standard by 600 A.D. They treated zero as a number and discussed operations involving this number.

The Hindus introduced negative numbers to represent debts. The first known use is by Brahmagupta about 628. Bhaskara (b. 1114) recognized that a positive number has two square roots. The Hindus also developed correct procedures for operating with irrational numbers.

They made progress in algebra as well as arithmetic. They developed some symbolism which, though not extensive, was enough to classify Hindu algebra as almost symbolic and certainly more so than the syncopated algebra of Diophantus. Only the steps in the solutions of problems were stated; no reasons or proofs accompanied them.

The Hindus recognized that quadratic equations have two roots, and included negative as well as irrational roots. They could not, however, solve all quadratics since they did not recognize square roots of negative numbers as numbers. In indeterminate equations the Hindus advanced beyond Diophantus. Aryabhata (b. 476) obtained whole number solutions to ax ± by = c by a method equivalent to the modern method. They also considered indeterminate quadratic equations.

linky

[Stardrive]

One word describes the edge we have. Diversity.

A hive mind mentality is no competition.

And no I'm not anti-Islamic. Just making an observation.

[Siara]

Quite a few years ago when I was in Junior High school, my friends and I used to hang out with these two muslim students during lunch. Our conversations would usually go to spirituality and what each other believed and why. The two students were strictly raised devout muslims. One time my friend asked them about Jihad and if they would kill. They said yes, we would even kill you or any infidel if we were in a Jihad.

MUSLIMS HERE PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG

My understanding is that very few people are qualified to declare holy wars. You have to go through years and years of spiritual training first. Every big-mouthed, testosterone-poisoned politician in the middle east does not have a right to start a Jihad. Of course those politicians probably don't realize this because, like political radicals in other religions, they don't have the humility to spend the necessary years studying scripture.

[__Kratos__]

MUSLIMS HERE PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG

My understanding is that very few people are qualified to declare holy wars. You have to go through years and years of spiritual training first. Every big-mouthed, testosterone-poisoned politician in the middle east does not have a right to start a Jihad. Of course those politicians probably don't realize this because, like political radicals in other religions, they don't have the humility to spend the necessary years studying scripture.

As I recall there is no muslim leadership, so people are forced to listen to their local leaders and muslims with a popular face for their guilds. All of which are using the koran for the mass murders, terrorism, oppression and hatred today.

There is some hope for muslims though... One of Osama bin Laden's goals is to created a muslim leader. Well... Not so good news for us infidels who will be fought against and worse...

Edited April 9, 2008 by __Kratos__