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Dutch MP posts Islam film on web


__Kratos__
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He dosn't explain why a few passages can so easily influence young muslims. Take a look at the state of world affairs, if christians saw their holy sites/land being bombed and taken over they would rise aswell.

Oh, completely, I know I have smote the necks of a few Muslims after the desecration of Christian Churches in Kosovo.  The relics of many Holy Saints reside their, they are all Holy sites to us.  1999 and 2004 were a couple of good years for me and my broadsword.   :rolleyes:   Oh, and by the way, I am not Serbian, so don't try and throw that at me.

Also, since I live in a Christian majority nation, so clearly, Muslims should have no rights, I gunned down an Imam and his three assistants (a la Father Ragheed Ganni and his deacons) after a service, also I abducted and murdered another Imam (in Archbishop Paulos Faraj Rahho fashion), and lastly, in one further act of cowardice, I will shoot an Imam in the back while he is in prayer (like what happened to Father Andrea Santoro) and promptly yell "Jesus is Lord!" before fleeing.

Tell that to all the muslims (a majority) that havn't blown themselves up yet. It's only in the middle east, a place that has always been unstable, that you will find relegion to this extreme. (Obviously those of decent who go to other places take these values with them)

This is unbelievable.  There have been many attacks in the diaspora where members from outside the Middle East or even those who were domestically born carried it out.  

This topic has become really racist, unproportional and it has become a place to kill supports for all the Moslems.

I don't see how this topic is racist.  There are Muslims of all races, it would be like saying someone who insults Christianity is a racist.  Last time I checked, a Bosniak didn't look Pakistani to me, nor Arabic.

Yes I feel pity for those less-educated Moslems, but try to understand, most of you live in a wealthy country. You don't have to experience the difficulty of finding waters, food, schools and conventional items. You got internet in almost every house, you got the advanced education facility, you even got spaceship! Think about what they have! Almost nothing! They're already poor people with very low educational background and yet you still drop bombs in them countries, try to ravage their oils and hating them to death. Does that makes you better? I don't think so. I already said that most of you Islam haters are exactly the same as those radical Moslems, you guys are xenophobic.

I don't see how wealth makes things justifiable.  There are Muslims who have gone to Western nations, prospered, become professionals (doctors and whatnot), started families, yet still harbour such resentment to Western ideals that they support or even take part in such attacks.  So there must be more to it...

Oh yeah, just one more thing, after you guys log out, try to think what will you do if you were Moslems and you have nothing or nobody to backs you up while the whole world is ready to kill you. That's all and have a nice day, everyone.

You mean like a Christian or Jew in a Muslim nation?  Last time I checked, the killing of Muslims in Western nations for the sole reason that they were Muslim, is very, very rare.  Let alone their rights being severely limited.  The West, unfortunately, is all too willing to bend over backwards to appease Muslims who appear in our nations, I don't see similar concessions being made in various Muslim nations.

Edited by Spirito
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Well, there's only so much limited influence any one of us can have on the world.

Er Unless you're Hilter, Beatles, Jesus, Mohammed (PBHN) or Bono (PBHN) .

But anyway...that's not my point, my point is, and no message could have been any clearer

If you wanna make the world a better place!

(If you really wanna make the world a better place!)

Take a look at yourself, and then make a change.

Take a look at yourself, and then make a change.

Personally, I'm starting with the man in the mirror and I'm asking him to change his ways.

Not my words, but the words of an Iconic er pedophile, no, no no not Mohammed (PBHN) but another one.

Edited by Bill Hill
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:cry: First of all, I guess most of you knows already that I'm a Moslem. I've seen the movie (before it was taken off LiveLeak) and it's just made me cry. Not because it's so true, but because it shows you how you can actually do anything to shows your hate and spread it throughout the world. You can literally take footages from anywhere, as long as it looks like Arabs/Islamic people killing other people.

I need to calm myself down for a moment, after reading this topic. And after few years being in this forum and in this area, I can understand why we Moslems will go for any random train bombing. This topic has become really racist, unproportional and it has become a place to kill supports for all the Moslems. And sadly, there's only one or two people that would stand up and support us by providing balanced commentary. I tried to be as peaceful as I can, I believe the word of the Holy Quran, but I don't want to kill anyone. The greatest Jihad is against yourself, so I believe, unless I get myself straight first, then I shouldn't be correcting or fighting others. Yes I feel pity for those less-educated Moslems, but try to understand, most of you live in a wealthy country. You don't have to experience the difficulty of finding waters, food, schools and conventional items. You got internet in almost every house, you got the advanced education facility, you even got spaceship! Think about what they have! Almost nothing! They're already poor people with very low educational background and yet you still drop bombs in them countries, try to ravage their oils and hating them to death. Does that makes you better? I don't think so. I already said that most of you Islam haters are exactly the same as those radical Moslems, you guys are xenophobic. If you guys get to meet each other, you'll kill each other and I might get to watch. It could be fun to watch, NOT!

Once again, I know I'm being very harsh but I can't take it anymore, the pressure is just too heavy with no one to help us carry the weight. I'm terribly sorry for that. But I won't change, I will (try my best) to be as friendly as possible, even if it means I might have to carry the weight myself. Go on, play the game, you be whoever you are, I be the Moslem, we'll play the blame game.

Oh yeah, just one more thing, after you guys log out, try to think what will you do if you were Moslems and you have nothing or nobody to backs you up while the whole world is ready to kill you. That's all and have a nice day, everyone.

You seem to have done your best to understand the brutality and have done your homework to somehow justify it.

There is our difference, we simply think it is wrong regardless, rich or poor.

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You seem to have done your best to understand the brutality and have done your homework to somehow justify it.

There is our difference, we simply think it is wrong regardless, rich or poor.

But as many examples show, we also find reasons to justify war, unlimited detention and torture... like we are any better, we just justify it with an abstract concept called freedom instead of some old book.

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But as many examples show, we also find reasons to justify war, unlimited detention and torture... like we are any better, we just justify it with an abstract concept called freedom instead of some old book.

Same with you, you seem to see yourself just like any Radical Islams. Well, most of us don't and see the difference.

Given a choice would you live in their society or a Western one?

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Same with you, you seem to see yourself just like any Radical Islams. Well, most of us don't and see the difference.

Given a choice would you live in their society or a Western one?

I live in a western one, you know the place were ideals such as democracy, rule of law and similar were born. And imagine, the Muslims occupied it for almost 400 years ... and it took hardly any harm until they buggered off. Hope that answers your question.

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I live in a western one, you know the place were ideals such as democracy, rule of law and similar were born. And imagine, the Muslims occupied it for almost 400 years ... and it took hardly any harm until they buggered off. Hope that answers your question.

Huh ? The Caliphate occupied Greece ?

Meow Purr.

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Huh ? The Caliphate occupied Greece ?

Meow Purr.

The Ottoman empire, yes... Greece at the time was a province of Constantinople.

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I thank you for all the reply to me, bad or good. I have heard all that I want to hear and it came out. Yes, I know that we have to change, but it takes time and sometimes extreme measures. Sure I went to Mosque, and not only once our local Imams cursed the terrorist (but I guess you won't know it, because you don't attend mosques and not all Imams' preach came out on the media, mostly just the "wrong" ones). I'm not afraid to change, I went to Catholic elementary school, I came from a half-Japanese family and I stayed in a Jewish family while I was on study abroad. I've seen what I want to see, and I can kinda guess where's the wrong of the problem. I dunno about other Moslems, but for me, fighting people from other religions or race is not even in my agenda. Unfortunately, that's just me, maybe. But I won't stop at telling any radical Moslems I'll meet to re-think about their way. You know, I myself won't be enough to do the change. We need more people to tell them the right way of Islam, not what those political hungry Imams with fame on their agenda has told them to. The Holy Quran does speak about grabbing everyone into Islam, but do they really know, that the word "Islam" actually means "to submit to peace"? Thus it means "everyone must life in peace"...or at least, that's what's in my mind.

And who said it has nothing to do with wealthy? Come down here and let me show you so you can see it with your own eyes. You don't have to believe me, but I can show you. FYI, I've once attended a sermon with a certain Imam. Most of the people that was there are either live in the village, or in a ghetto, the worst part of the city. He invites them, gave them food and what they need. And this Imam talked about killing infidels, how Osama was right, etc. I felt uneasy and then left. Few months later, the Imam was caught as a terrorism suspect. Sadly, his teaching had been planted too deep on those poor people.

Believe me, the poorer you are, the easier you get brainwashed!

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I live in a western one, you know the place were ideals such as democracy, rule of law and similar were born. And imagine, the Muslims occupied it for almost 400 years ... and it took hardly any harm until they buggered off. Hope that answers your question.

Did the Greeks feel it a good thing living under the rule of muslim Turks like you think it was, or is that just an outsiders view?

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It's not the view of a billion Muslims. Do not confuse the actions of a minority for the views of a billion.

Those that hate Islam, please spend a little time reading and researching what is contained in the link below. If you agree that Muslims in general condemn terroism afterwards then fine. If you find it teaches you more about your "enemy" then that is fine also.

Muslims Condemn Terrorism

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Did the Greeks feel it a good thing living under the rule of muslim Turks like you think it was, or is that just an outsiders view?

They did not mind (much) the first 350 years, with the demise of the Ottoman Empire and subsequent corruption of its officials rebellions were more frequent and ended up in an open war of liberation.

The legends sound a little different.

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They did not mind (much) the first 350 years, with the demise of the Ottoman Empire and subsequent corruption of its officials rebellions were more frequent and ended up in an open war of liberation.

The legends sound a little different.

I think you only get wars of liberation when the populus can no longer stand the repression.

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I thank you for all the reply to me, bad or good. I have heard all that I want to hear and it came out. Yes, I know that we have to change, but it takes time and sometimes extreme measures. Sure I went to Mosque, and not only once our local Imams cursed the terrorist (but I guess you won't know it, because you don't attend mosques and not all Imams' preach came out on the media, mostly just the "wrong" ones).

..this may seem like a dippy idea Capoeiranger, but if any of your Imam's speak English, why not invite them to post on this board ? (perhaps giving their perspective on news stories that relate to Islam ? )

In a unrelated vein; rather than feeling that you have to "defend Islam", why not also tell us more about news events and perspectives in Indonesia ? I don't beleive we have many Indonesian posters in World News and Current Buns ?

Meow Purr.

Edited by ships-cat
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It might also be worth noting, that there have been no violent protests around the world about this film. The only notable protests have been in Pakistan, and even there the numbers of protesters have been in the hundreds, which is actually ridiculously low when you think about it. Muslim leaders around the world have condemned the film, yet have urged people to "not be provoked".

To me this is good news, I can't help but feel that films like this are intentional provocations, so that the director can afterwards say "I told you so!" The dutch seem pretty adamant about defending the freedom of speech, yet the movie seems to be more about hate-filled propaganda than about providing any actual insight.

I can't help but feel that there's also a kind of "high-school-shooting" phenomenon going on as well. When it happened the first time, people were absolutely flabberghasted that something like that could even happen. Nowadays people are so used to it that shootings hardly draw headlines. I think muslims may simply be growing tired of being outraged by certain parties' constant attempts at provoking them. I don't think that that's necessarily a good thing though. While there have been no violent protests, the muslim world seems to grow increasingly tired of the west's perceived insensitivity towards their culture. Movies like this serve to simply deepen suspicions between cultures, and make it more and more difficult to build co-operation.

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It might also be worth noting, that there have been no violent protests around the world about this film. The only notable protests have been in Pakistan, and even there the numbers of protesters have been in the hundreds, which is actually ridiculously low when you think about it. Muslim leaders around the world have condemned the film, yet have urged people to "not be provoked".

To me this is good news, I can't help but feel that films like this are intentional provocations, so that the director can afterwards say "I told you so!" The dutch seem pretty adamant about defending the freedom of speech, yet the movie seems to be more about hate-filled propaganda than about providing any actual insight.

I can't help but feel that there's also a kind of "high-school-shooting" phenomenon going on as well. When it happened the first time, people were absolutely flabberghasted that something like that could even happen. Nowadays people are so used to it that shootings hardly draw headlines. I think muslims may simply be growing tired of being outraged by certain parties' constant attempts at provoking them. I don't think that that's necessarily a good thing though. While there have been no violent protests, the muslim world seems to grow increasingly tired of the west's perceived insensitivity towards their culture. Movies like this serve to simply deepen suspicions between cultures, and make it more and more difficult to build co-operation.

You said it...maybe this can return things to normality.

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Watched the video, very disturbing (although I missed out the 20 seconds where Ken Bigley was beheaded. But that’s the whole point, Islamic fundamentalism is savage, it is inhumane, it is barbaric, and it currently trying to conquer the world – and too many moderates are just turning a blind eye to it, and instead claim we’re the racists for not being ‘tolerant’ of their culture (like Capoeiranger in this very thread who says he understands ‘why we Moslems will go for any random train bombing’ because we – apparently – we're 'racists' who want to ‘kill support for all the Moslems’). We are at war and the enemy has fired off more than just the first shots and our leaders to busy leaving the front-line open and shouting ‘peace in our time’.

Islam unfortunately was formed 700s behind Christainity, and although I’m not fan of Christainity, the days when Christainity was a thuggish teenager pushing others around (such as during the crusades, witch-burnings and inqusistion) is largely over. Islam however, it currently going through that stage, and just as Christainity did hundreds of years ago, thinks it knows everything and wants to bully the world into following – and finding no shortage of followers to spread that attitude through death, and more moderate individuals such as Capoiranger to justify their actions. This is not say all Muslims justify terrorism or terrorism, however to large a minority do in the west, and far far to many in the middle east to be so quick to import their culture as we do, and to many Muslims in European countries are fans of Sharia Law which would turn our continient into the same blood-thirty mess it turned the Middle East into - something like 50% of Muslims in the UK want Sharia Law, thats 50% to many and 50% who should go to a nive Islamic country like the one they fled in the first place to live under it if they so want it.

Sadly sanity's biggest enemies include the white middle class PC brigade who think they’re being 'tolerant' by bowing to the demands of terrorists and extremists and introducing acts of Sharia Law on the continent; e.g. Muslim doctors in some countries don't have to operate on people they consider infidels, Muslim shop staff don't have to sell alcohol even thought its part of their job, in Germany having multiple wives is illegal... unless your a Muslim and so forth.

The PC brigade thinks it’s so nice and enlightened, but all it does is give the terrorists yet another voice, give into their demands, and actually p*** off not only the indigenous European population but also, thankfully, those sane Muslims who have as much time for terrorist demands as we do.

Sad thing is the PC brigade rather than listening to the publics just concerns, rather point and shout Islamaphobic! A term which modern day society has been so over used and waterdown to include any – ANY – criticism of Islam or Middel Eastern culture. In today’s world saying ‘I don’t agree with public beheading’ is Islamicphobic, saying ‘I believe in a civilised society men and women should be equals’ is Islamiphobic, saying ‘I want terrorists and their supports deported’ is Islamiphobic’, saying ‘I want to be able to celebrate my own culture without worrying about someone saying it offends them’ is Islamipobic… etc etc

In today’s society Islamiphobia has become a byword for saying you want a fair and tolerant society, and don't want to import any of the barbaric rituals we see in many Muslim-dominated countries.

So I say, that in modern society if your called Islamiphocibic, don’t take it as an insult, because it doesn’t mean ‘fear of Islam’ anymore, it means that you stand for peace, tolerance and sanity and you should take it as a badge and wear it with pride.

Thankyou Isnotouthere for posting this site, the man’s videos (on youtube) were both insight, but also amusing in their sarcasm – I agree with everything he says, and just spent hours over the last few nights watching him over and over again. The man should be given a knighthood, and atheists should have our own version of saints to him one of them.

Edited by Talon
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..this may seem like a dippy idea Capoeiranger, but if any of your Imam's speak English, why not invite them to post on this board ? (perhaps giving their perspective on news stories that relate to Islam ? )

In a unrelated vein; rather than feeling that you have to "defend Islam", why not also tell us more about news events and perspectives in Indonesia ? I don't beleive we have many Indonesian posters in World News and Current Buns ?

Meow Purr.

Credits to Papaver, in case you missed it, here are the Moslems condemning terrorism, in English, of course... :tu:

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

And, of course, I'll post some news about Indonesia here. Nothing really much happened and we're here still having trouble of affording life. There were several cases where a mother killed her children then herself due to poverty. And that "tree-man" Dede is also from Indonesia. Good idea, I'll try to do that. And uh, please do visit my thread should I post one, okay? Have a nice day :) !

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'I'm Not the Least Bit Offended'

By Fatma Aykut

In his film "Fitna," right-wing Dutch populist Geert Wilders condemns Islam, the Koran and practicing Muslims. Fatma Aykut, a Muslim journalist living in Germany, describes the impact the film had on her -- and why it failed to shock.

Footage of a hijacked airplane slamming into the World Trade Center on 9/11. Hate-mongering mullahs calling Muslims to a holy war. Images of the mangled corpses of victims in the 2004 Madrid train bombings. These are the tools by which right-wing Dutch populist Geert Wilders tries to "shock" his audience.

But it doesn't work.

First, these images lost their impact long ago. We've seen them in the news a thousand times, much like images of Hamas supporters in Gaza, waving machine guns in the air and bellowing anti-Semitic slogans at the camera. It may sound macabre, but they are worn out -- we were desensitized long ago to these inflammatory television images.

A desire to shock also compelled Wilders to include footage from the beheading of a hostage, uncensored and uncut. The camera fixes on the severed head as the scene fades out. The only problem is that the news value of this footage is absolutely zero. The viewer finds herself wondering: "When is Wilders actually going to shock me?"

Moderate Muslims are as appalled by these horrific images as non-Muslims -- both groups turn away with equal disgust. Islamic extremists, meanwhile, judge these pictures callously. "Perfect," they are surely saying, "the Dutchman has portrayed us just right." Such extremists won't be shocked. Just the opposite: Al-Qaida could post Wilder's work as a promotional video on their Web site.

Europe 's Muslims as Christian-haters and homophobes

Wilders' accompanies these "shocking images" with quotations from the Koran, an effort to expose Islam's holiest text as a well-spring of hate. That makes it difficult for me, a totally average Muslim, to defend Islam as a peaceful religion. These quotations are not made up -- they can actually be found in the Koran. Passages from the holy book that rail hatefully against Jews have, unfortunately, long been misused as propaganda. That is tragic, as it is tragic that similar anti-Semitic passages are just as common in the Bible.

The film's title, "Fitna," can be translated as "chaos," and that describes the first 10 minutes of the film. An endless stream of fear-mongering images promotes the cliché of Muslims as savages -- a horde of bearded, dark-skinned men in long white robes. The viewer finds herself asking, "What is this film trying to achieve? What does the film maker want?"

Full story, source: Der Spiegel

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Islam unfortunately was formed 700s behind Christainity, and although I’m not fan of Christainity, the days when Christainity was a thuggish teenager pushing others around (such as during the crusades, witch-burnings and inqusistion) is largely over. Islam however, it currently going through that stage, and just as Christainity did hundreds of years ago, thinks it knows everything and wants to bully the world into following – and finding no shortage of followers to spread that attitude through death, and more moderate individuals such as Capoiranger to justify their actions.

It all changed when Christians rose up and beat down or wiped out other Christians who killed others for being different.

I see no signs of a moderate Islamic nation taking on a more fundamentalist one, or even any signs of any Islamic nation rising up to attempt to wipe out fundamentalism from within.

If anything, unfortunately, what I have been seeing is a progressive regression in many nations into more fundamentalism, predominately because of its backing by vast amounts of oil money.

I am sure there are many good people in many Islamic nations and that all good people belong to God. I also think they are in the minority and that number is shrinking. The wealthy forces against them are of biblical proportions in power and in strength.

I doubt that anything can save them from what appears to be the inevitable, unless the power and wealth is stripped from these forces of fundamentalism before the inevitable occurs.

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I agree. If peaceful muslims are truely desiring to not allow their faith to be hi-jacked by radicals. If they don't want to be considered terrorists or frowned upon. Then for the love of God SPEAK OUT! Get your leaders to do whatever they can to make their way onto news media spread the truth of your so called peaceful religion! If you don't speak out against this and fight for what YOU feel is the right way to practice your faith... There will be more wars, more killings more beheadings!

I'm tired of Islam condemning media that exposes what is being done in the name of Islam yet they don't condemn these terrorists that kill in the name of Allah. This is a war we are fighting and like many others have said here, we need to continue fighting this because apparently infidels can't sit down at the table and talk differences out with someone of the likes of Mahmoud Ah-Madenejad. sp?- who cares

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^

Gus Dur condemn terrorists (Gus Dur was formerly the President of Indonesia, a very powerful imam and Moslem politican, also one of the most prominent figure in Indonesian Moslems)

More...

Terrorists sucks big time!

Just some news article I can afford to provide facts that Moslems (leaders) do condemn terorism. Mainly in Indonesia, because that's where I live. And they rose up to it.

One more, a draft from the OCI, condemning terrorists.

It's not a fable, it's not a myth. It's true, Moslems all over the world are fighting against these radicals. And the best thing we can do right now, is providing supports, keeping it balanced and sensible toward Moslems, as they literally on a war from both sides, the Western oppression and the radicalism.

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You know what would really fight terrorists? Ripping out of the koran the verses that allow them to become jihadists and murder innocent people infidels.

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A message from the host site:

On the 28th of March LiveLeak.com was left with no other choice but to remove the film "fitna" from our servers following serious threats to our staff and their families. Since that time we have worked constantly on upgrading all security measures thus offering better protection for our staff and families. With these measures in place we have decided to once more make this video live on our site. We will not be pressured into censoring material which is legal and within our rules. We apologise for the removal and the delay in getting it back, but when you run a website you don't consider that some people would be insecure enough to threaten our lives simply because they do not like the content of a video we neither produced nor endorsed but merely hosted.

--

Most awesome :tu:

And now that I know about him... Pat Condell has a new video out on youtube! :D

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