Spiritual warfare / Astral Combat

[NoTC]

Why? You claim that "this" doesn't exist, and yet you also claim to know when it works. Which is it?

I state that it doesn't exist. My request was for proof in a controlled environment.

I disagree. This is a discussion board. If someone makes a claim, then she should discuss it, and answer questions about it.

Maggie did answer my questions. She has met her burden.

You, in contrast, didn't answer my question about your statement, which was based on your claimed expertise. An utterly unsubstantiated claim, I hasten to add.

Further, to compare her report to something involving X-men powers is inflammatory and hostile.

She hasn't met any burden, as she's made the claim and provided nothing but a personal, internal account.

You would not beleive the word of my friends anymore then you so my own. I could have friends come here and post their experiences from my workings for them, and my remote observations of situations with them. You would then require video evidence or medical data, in the end it would all be moot.

If I am going to do an experiment for you then it should be done scientifically, by trained people who have no relation to me (Under the supervision of someone I trust, or someone I trust being there). Even then any 'evidence' could be written off as anomolies just as al the results from Twin stidues have been. (I am a twin by the way).

I admire skeptics for their logical thought porcesses most times, but some requests can never be satisfied because no matter how hard the evidence it can always be dismissed because most of us are not spiritually advanced enough to understand the results.

I do not agree. We are all advanced enough to understand what all of this is. It's not spiritual (unless you want it to be)

Whats the point in pretending when there is something real happening?

Whats the point in lieing when the truth simply is?

Because people WANT to believe.

My question was posed in post # 140 of this thread.

asking you to clarify a remark that you made in post #137. You made no post between 137 and 140.

So, you did not answer my question. And you still haven't answered my question.

I read just fine.

Nor is yours.

I already answered. However, the last link I post in this one is going to cover everyone's burden of proof, by showing scientific evidence and proof that removes the misinterpretation of what people call "astral projection. What "it" is to you is different to me because I actually know what it is, and I know what causes it, and most of all, WHY.

Ok just read the links

http://www.happierabroad.com/Debunking_Ske...ments/Page4.htm

http://www.happierabroad.com/Debunking_Ske...ments/Page1.htm

Classic! How about how to debunk a claim if incorrect, misinterpreted information is posted? One needs a long list to "debunk" a skeptic. One only needs scientific and medical proof to debunk the belief.

What then. In the event that a skeptic is willing to do the research for you (such as I have), then you can't really debunk science.

So here you are : D Didn't want to post this in two threads at the same time, so here's a link: LINK To another AP thread. It's a write up full of facts that back up the claim that lucid dreaming is the same as astral projection. You merely do NOT leave your body in doing so : )

Done : )

Edited January 31, 2009 by NoTC

[eight bits]

What "it" is to you is different to me because I actually know what it is, and I know what causes it, and most of all, WHY.

No, the "it" in post 137 was Maggie's report of a single incident of bilocation. As both she and I pointed out, you had not addressed the issue of a conscious, awake person seeing Maggie at or about the time she experienced herself as being in that person's presence.

In any case, my question was how you could conclude that something which does not exist nevertheless has the property which you claimed for it (recurrence in a controlled environment).

I state that it doesn't exist. My request was for proof in a controlled environment.

Maggie did not claim that her experience was recurrent. There would be little point in her trying to perform in what you called a controlled environment when she does not claim performance at will in the first place.

There is nothing in the phenomenon itself that would suggest recurrence, except your unsupported claim, based on your alleged personal investigations, that it ought to be recurrent.

Further, I notice that your own unsubstantiated claims of personal experimentation do not feature a controlled environment. I see no reason why Maggie should be more fastidious in her investigation than you yourself were, assuming that you are being truthful about having done anything at all.

She hasn't met any burden, as she's made the claim and provided nothing but a personal, internal account.

Like you, me, and everyone else who posts here, Maggie accepted Saru's invitation to post about her experiences. She has no other burden beyond conforming to the rules, terms of service, and to cooperate in furtherance of the general purposes of the site.

She has fully met that burden.

You, on the other hand, claim expertise based on personal experimentation with this subject matter. You have offerered no substantiation of these claims whatsoever.

Even as you rail about the informality of others' investigations, you post no laboratory notebook, no investigative plan, ..., nothing whatsoever that backs up your claim that you would even know how to conduct an investigation, much less that you have actually done so.

What you have is a personal opinion about the subject. Congratulations, so do we all.

Put up or shut up, NoTC. If you have done formal experiemtation, then post your laboratory notebook. If not, then quit claiming you have done investigative work, and stop insisting that others "must" do what you yourself won't do.

[NoTC]

No, the "it" in post 137 was Maggie's report of a single incident of bilocation. As both she and I pointed out, you had not addressed the issue of a conscious, awake person seeing Maggie at or about the time she experienced herself as being in that person's presence.

In any case, my question was how you could conclude that something which does not exist nevertheless has the property which you claimed for it (recurrence in a controlled environment).

Maggie did not claim that her experience was recurrent. There would be little point in her trying to perform in what you called a controlled environment when she does not claim performance at will in the first place.

There is nothing in the phenomenon itself that would suggest recurrence, except your unsupported claim, based on your alleged personal investigations, that it ought to be recurrent.

Further, I notice that your own unsubstantiated claims of personal experimentation do not feature a controlled environment. I see no reason why Maggie should be more fastidious in her investigation than you yourself were, assuming that you are being truthful about having done anything at all.

Like you, me, and everyone else who posts here, Maggie accepted Saru's invitation to post about her experiences. She has no other burden beyond conforming to the rules, terms of service, and to cooperate in furtherance of the general purposes of the site.

She has fully met that burden.

You, on the other hand, claim expertise based on personal experimentation with this subject matter. You have offerered no substantiation of these claims whatsoever.

Even as you rail about the informality of others' investigations, you post no laboratory notebook, no investigative plan, ..., nothing whatsoever that backs up your claim that you would even know how to conduct an investigation, much less that you have actually done so.

What you have is a personal opinion about the subject. Congratulations, so do we all.

Put up or shut up, NoTC. If you have done formal experiemtation, then post your laboratory notebook. If not, then quit claiming you have done investigative work, and stop insisting that others "must" do what you yourself won't do.

Bilocation? Bwahahahaha!! You do realize that they are both (the terms bilocation and astral projection) the same thing, right? No? You think I don't know what I'm talking about? Need a link? Bilocation IS the SAME thing as astral projection

What is "experiemntation?"

You just shot yourself in the foot right there. You are not educated enough in this subject to slam anyone's investigatory work. I've already explained my viewpoint, I've explained how I've come to this conclusion. I don't know where you stand because you don't say anything that offers anything new or tangible to the subject, nor do I care. You seem far to angry to "discuss" anything. If you clicked on the link I posted last night and did some reading, well, scratch that idea, I don't think you have or will, so it's pointless to even bother. As for putting up or shutting up, I have already given the complete breakdown of what AP and AT REALLY are: I'll be posting this all day Yep, same link as last night. Read it or not. You're just going to believe what you want anyway : )

My God.... Yeah, I'm no longer going to argue semantics with you. If you post anything else, don't worry. I'm not going to respond unless you post something to back up what you have to say. And next time, please understand the subject before trying to slam me for it.

Have a good weekend!

: )

[eight bits]

What distinguishes bilocation from other OBE phenomena is the report by someone other than she who is "out of body" that the person was in the place she experienced herself to be.

As to your link to Wikipedia under a different URL? So what?

And you still haven't answered the question.

You are not educated enough in this subject to slam anyone's investigatory work

I didn't "slam" your work, I asked you to back up your claim that you've done any. Which, just like the psi-kiddies, you won't do, but you'll post a wall of words about why it is impolite to ask you to prove your claim.

We see a lot of that here. You have a good weekend, too.

Edited January 31, 2009 by eight bits

[NoTC]

What distinguishes bilocation from other OBE phenomena is the report by someone other than she who is "out of body" that the person was in the place she experienced herself to be.

As to your link to Wikipedia under a different URL? So what?

And you still haven't answered the question.

I didn't "slam" your work, I asked you to back up your claim that you've done any. Which, just like the psi-kiddies, you won't do, but you'll post a wall of words about why it is impolite to ask you to prove your claim.

We see a lot of that here. You have a good weekend, too.

Really? When did you make this definition up? I find it absolutely HILARIOUS that you compare me to "psi-kiddies" when you use the ever-so-classic "SO WHAT?" argument to validate yourself. lol Educational!

You have absolutely no ground to stand on in this matter:

"Bilocation, sometimes multilocation, or astral projection is a term used to describe the ability/instances in which an individual or object is said to be, or appear to be, located in two distinct places at the same instant in time." Please show me where there is a requirement BY DEFINITION that another person has to witness the individual for this to be called bilocation. If you REALLY want to dig into it some more, "When someone enjoys the spiritual manifestation of bilocation, at that particular moment, his human spirit is separated from his physical body, his spiritual presence manifesting itself in another location. While it may appear to the human mind as if there are two of the same person who are bilocating, in truth, there is only one person, but two separate presences of the same person. One presence is physical, the other being spiritual." Last time I checked, claims of a spiritual manifest are not solely physical either, but according to nothing more than claims, they can be. The alleged physical manifestation of the body during an episode of bilocation is called an ethereal body. I don't think I'll bother posting a link to this one because you most definitely won't bother reading it.

Here's the dictionary definition for you:

In the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, it is defined as:

Main Entry: bi·lo·ca·tion

Pronunciation: 'bI-lO-"kA-sh&n

: the state of being or ability to be in two places at the same time

Hmmmmmm, I don't see anything there either that states a witness must be present to substantiate the claim of bilocation. But don't take MY word for it. Read up on what the parapsychologists (the "experts of the astral plane) have to say about it.

I can post this crap all day long for you. Do you still want to continue making up your own definitions to try to debunk the scientific and medical facts that I have provided?

Moving on.....

Second, I find it ironic that you are STILL demanding proof from me when you previously stated this:

Like you, me, and everyone else who posts here, Maggie accepted Saru's invitation to post about her experiences. She has no other burden beyond conforming to the rules, terms of service, and to cooperate in furtherance of the general purposes of the site.

She has fully met that burden.

You, on the other hand, claim expertise based on personal experimentation with this subject matter. You have offerered no substantiation of these claims whatsoever.

Live by double standards much? Why is that? Why is it you demand proof from me, yet you don't think SHE is required to back up her claim? According to you, she has no other burden beyond conforming to the rules, etc.... Are the rules different for each of us? Please show me these rules so I may live up to your personal standards.

I have SHOWN the research I have done outside of PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. My personal experiences were dreams. NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS. If leaving my body were possible and I believed my dreams, I'd be posting the contents of my dreams, rather than scientific and medical FACTS. Get it through your head. I doubt much you read anything else but my request from her for something more than a personal account, because you've done nothing but attack me since, even after I posted proof of what causes the phenomena. You are very sadly mistaken if you think I'm going to sit back and let you badger me : ) I posted more information than I have ever seen anyone post on the subject that SUBSTANTIATES my claims 100% all the way down to the symptoms associated with the misinterpretation of sleep paralysis, Hypnagogia, muscle atonia, etc, and lucid dreaming (which by the way has been proven to exist in a lab environment). But you didn't bother clicking a couple links and READING. Instead, you choose to demand evidence by me to substantiate my claims (WHICH I HAVE) and say that someone else doesn't (and never can). I've proven multiple times that I have done my research. Next time you want to debate someone and attempt to "debunk" what they have to say, you'd better know what you're talking about. The END.

Edited February 1, 2009 by NoTC

[DrawingPics]

Really? When did you make this definition up? I find it absolutely HILARIOUS that you compare me to "psi-kiddies" when you use the ever-so-classic "SO WHAT?" argument to validate yourself. lol Educational!

You have absolutely no ground to stand on in this matter:

"Bilocation, sometimes multilocation, or astral projection is a term used to describe the ability/instances in which an individual or object is said to be, or appear to be, located in two distinct places at the same instant in time." Please show me where there is a requirement BY DEFINITION that another person has to witness the individual for this to be called bilocation. If you REALLY want to dig into it some more, "When someone enjoys the spiritual manifestation of bilocation, at that particular moment, his human spirit is separated from his physical body, his spiritual presence manifesting itself in another location. While it may appear to the human mind as if there are two of the same person who are bilocating, in truth, there is only one person, but two separate presences of the same person. One presence is physical, the other being spiritual." Last time I checked, claims of a spiritual manifest are not solely physical either, but according to nothing more than claims, they can be. The alleged physical manifestation of the body during an episode of bilocation is called an ethereal body. I don't think I'll bother posting a link to this one because you most definitely won't bother reading it.

Here's the dictionary definition for you:

In the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, it is defined as:

Main Entry: bi·lo·ca·tion

Pronunciation: 'bI-lO-"kA-sh&n

: the state of being or ability to be in two places at the same time

Hmmmmmm, I don't see anything there either that states a witness must be present to substantiate the claim of bilocation. But don't take MY word for it. Read up on what the parapsychologists (the "experts of the astral plane) have to say about it.

I can post this crap all day long for you. Do you still want to continue making up your own definitions to try to debunk the scientific and medical facts that I have provided?

Moving on.....

Second, I find it ironic that you are STILL demanding proof from me when you previously stated this:

Live by double standards much? Why is that? Why is it you demand proof from me, yet you don't think SHE is required to back up her claim? According to you, she has no other burden beyond conforming to the rules, etc.... Are the rules different for each of us? Please show me these rules so I may live up to your personal standards.

I have SHOWN the research I have done outside of PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. My personal experiences were dreams. NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS. If leaving my body were possible and I believed my dreams, I'd be posting the contents of my dreams, rather than scientific and medical FACTS. Get it through your head. I doubt much you read anything else but my request from her for something more than a personal account, because you've done nothing but attack me since, even after I posted proof of what causes the phenomena. You are very sadly mistaken if you think I'm going to sit back and let you badger me : ) I posted more information than I have ever seen anyone post on the subject that SUBSTANTIATES my claims 100% all the way down to the symptoms associated with the misinterpretation of sleep paralysis, Hypnagogia, muscle atonia, etc, and lucid dreaming (which by the way has been proven to exist in a lab environment). But you didn't bother clicking a couple links and READING. Instead, you choose to demand evidence by me to substantiate my claims (WHICH I HAVE) and say that someone else doesn't (and never can). I've proven multiple times that I have done my research. Next time you want to debate someone and attempt to "debunk" what they have to say, you'd better know what you're talking about. The END.

This is taken from wikipedia. "Astral projection (or astral travel) refers to episodes of out-of-body experiences perceived as unfolding in environments other than the physical world, by an astral counterpart of the physical body that separates from it and travels to one or more astral planes.[1] Astral projection is experienced as being "out of the body".[2] Unlike dreaming or near death experiences, astral projection may be practiced deliberately"

And by the way, to debunk you, I give you more links

http://www.happierabroad.com/Debunking_Ske...ments/Page9.htm

http://www.happierabroad.com/Debunking_Ske...ments/Page8.htm

http://www.happierabroad.com/Debunking_Ske...ents/Page10.htm

http://www.happierabroad.com/Debunking_Ske...ents/Page12.htm

http://www.happierabroad.com/Debunking_Ske...ents/Page17.htm

http://www.happierabroad.com/Debunking_Ske...ents/Page25.htm

Oh well, your debate is so typical, these links will do fine.

[MaggieDruydess]

My appologies for being gone, I had a previous engagement to prepare for and attend today.

NoTC, I am curious...

You have recognized that;

A) I did see an accurate event (Described the surrounds, clothing and actions of another)

I Was witnessed by another (my mother) at their location when I was physically miles away at the time

C) You do not label me a liar,

So then if more then myself can vouche for this event it clearly cannot be a dream because;

A) If I was dreaming how was I seen by another person miles away

The person was wide awake and active at the time of the incident

C) I have my husband who knows I was physically in bed and my father who was with my mother and knew I was not at his house.

So the explination would be?...

If it is the concept of a spirit leaving the body, then we must fall to a link of consciousness.

I do not know if you even beleive in spirit/soul or telepathy/conection of the mind with family

So I would like to know in your own words what you think happened since clearly this was not a simple or lucid dream. What other such events are you familiar with that makes you state this was not an event of AP or biolocation?

[Supernaturally Enhanced]

you guys are all immature little kids, none of this is real, get a life, get outside, maybe even get a girl or boy friend. Just GET OUT OF THIS IMAGINATION LAND! its not healthy or real. You all watch way too much anime for your own good. Stop trying to make yourselves seem special because NONE of you are. YOUR ALL THE SAME AS EVERYONE ELSE. Sorry but im just telling you what you dont want to hear but for your own good you need to hear this.

[DrawingPics]

you guys are all immature little kids, none of this is real, get a life, get outside, maybe even get a girl or boy friend. Just GET OUT OF THIS IMAGINATION LAND! its not healthy or real. You all watch way too much anime for your own good. Stop trying to make yourselves seem special because NONE of you are. YOUR ALL THE SAME AS EVERYONE ELSE. Sorry but im just telling you what you dont want to hear but for your own good you need to hear this.

http://www.happierabroad.com/Debunking_Ske...ents/Page14.htm

http://www.happierabroad.com/Debunking_Ske...ents/Page15.htm

[eight bits]

NoTC, you can make scattershot personal attacks until the cows come home. You have shown nothing, and claimed much, just like a psi-kiddie. Even down to using wikipedia and the dictionary as "authorities."

Thank you for adding comic relief to the "skeptical position."

[bLu3 de 3n3rgy]

you guys are all immature little kids, none of this is real, get a life, get outside, maybe even get a girl or boy friend. Just GET OUT OF THIS IMAGINATION LAND! its not healthy or real. You all watch way too much anime for your own good. Stop trying to make yourselves seem special because NONE of you are. YOUR ALL THE SAME AS EVERYONE ELSE. Sorry but im just telling you what you dont want to hear but for your own good you need to hear this.

Supernaturally Enchanced This post contributes nothing to the discussion at hand. Do not make posts containing personal or snide attacks.

You need to take good look at these 2 rules below -

3e. Flamebaiting: Do not intentionally instigate "flame wars" or bait others in to making personal attacks.

3f. Abusive behaviour: Do not be rude, insulting, offensive, snide, obnoxious or abusive towards other members.

[MaggieDruydess]

Now that THATS done with........

My appologies for being gone, I had a previous engagement to prepare for and attend today.

NoTC, I am curious...

You have recognized that;

A) I did see an accurate event (Described the surrounds, clothing and actions of another)

I Was witnessed by another (my mother) at their location when I was physically miles away at the time

C) You do not label me a liar,

So then if more then myself can vouche for this event it clearly cannot be a dream because;

A) If I was dreaming how was I seen by another person miles away

The person was wide awake and active at the time of the incident

C) I have my husband who knows I was physically in bed and my father who was with my mother and knew I was not at his house.

So the explination would be?...

If it is the concept of a spirit leaving the body, then we must fall to a link of consciousness.

I do not know if you even beleive in spirit/soul or telepathy/conection of the mind with family

So I would like to know in your own words what you think happened since clearly this was not a simple or lucid dream. What other such events are you familiar with that makes you state this was not an event of AP or biolocation?

Have you an answer? I would be most interesting in knowing what it is.

[Aanica]

Interesting. This post for subscription

[Resonance]

My appologies for being gone, I had a previous engagement to prepare for and attend today.

NoTC, I am curious...

You have recognized that;

A) I did see an accurate event (Described the surrounds, clothing and actions of another)

I Was witnessed by another (my mother) at their location when I was physically miles away at the time

C) You do not label me a liar,

So then if more then myself can vouche for this event it clearly cannot be a dream because;

A) If I was dreaming how was I seen by another person miles away

The person was wide awake and active at the time of the incident

C) I have my husband who knows I was physically in bed and my father who was with my mother and knew I was not at his house.

So the explination would be?...

If it is the concept of a spirit leaving the body, then we must fall to a link of consciousness.

I do not know if you even beleive in spirit/soul or telepathy/conection of the mind with family

So I would like to know in your own words what you think happened since clearly this was not a simple or lucid dream. What other such events are you familiar with that makes you state this was not an event of AP or biolocation?

I'm sorry, but i have to say..

SHUT DOWN!!!! lol...

Good point there Maggie!

[MaggieDruydess]

I'm sorry, but i have to say..

SHUT DOWN!!!! lol...

Good point there Maggie!

It seems I killed the thread with that. It was not my intention, nor was i trying to pick a fight or shut anyone down. I just wanted an answer.

*sniffle* I'm a thread killer.....WHAAAAAA!

Thank you though for your support. :-)

[MaggieDruydess]

I am disappointed that there is no answer.

[DfizzleShizzle]

Just when I thought I'd heard it all this thread popped up.

Are you people serious about this stuff or is it like some kind of fanatasy game like Dungeons and Dragons game but based in the spirit realm, or do people really believe they do all this in their spare time for real?

I can't make my mindup.

I dont know what I think either Papaver...but, it IS very interesting o.O

[Ccel]

one time while i was dreaming i was attacked by some kind of monster.it appeared to suck energy out of things.When i woke up i was very ill,but went to bed with perfect health.

so i continue to read with interest because this actually might be true

[puridalan]

I'd say yes..if that would give me an excuse to kick someones butt

[fae]

I'm new to the board but old to astral combat. Something happened that is really freaking me out and i need help.

[Virtual Particle]

I'm new to the board but old to astral combat. Something happened that is really freaking me out and i need help.

OK I would like to hear about it??

[fae]

OK I would like to hear about it??

O thank you. I didn't want to post all of it and not have anyone on here. I'm a little scared to think about it too much.

I had a friend who had something weird going on so he, some other friends, any myself did some projecting to help him out. It all went well, but there was one point where of the other girls and I got jerked back and felt this presence. We looked out the window and the whole house was surrounded by blue fog. Like physically surround by physical fog in the middle of the day when it really shouldn't be foggy. We got scared and closed the curtains and then I blacked out. I have no recall of it at all but I woke up to both of the guys holding me down. I'm not very big or strong and they were really having to try, they said I threw one of them off me twice before the other got me. They said I was talking and trying to fight the other girl who was brought back with me because I "needed the other one" They think it means I channeled someone who needs to talk to me. They want me to try it again but I really don't want to. I don't want to do any of it at all now but I keep having these dreams and so do the others. We do this thing where we write dream without telling anyone, seal them in envelops, then draw them randomly to read them and they are all the same dream. A blue-grey lady is making zombie things that look like our friends and family chase us. Do you think trying to channel the lady will help? How does one channel? They said I did it before but I think I did was pass out.

[Virtual Particle]

O thank you. I didn't want to post all of it and not have anyone on here. I'm a little scared to think about it too much.

I had a friend who had something weird going on so he, some other friends, any myself did some projecting to help him out. It all went well, but there was one point where of the other girls and I got jerked back and felt this presence. We looked out the window and the whole house was surrounded by blue fog. Like physically surround by physical fog in the middle of the day when it really shouldn't be foggy. We got scared and closed the curtains and then I blacked out. I have no recall of it at all but I woke up to both of the guys holding me down. I'm not very big or strong and they were really having to try, they said I threw one of them off me twice before the other got me. They said I was talking and trying to fight the other girl who was brought back with me because I "needed the other one" They think it means I channeled someone who needs to talk to me. They want me to try it again but I really don't want to. I don't want to do any of it at all now but I keep having these dreams and so do the others. We do this thing where we write dream without telling anyone, seal them in envelops, then draw them randomly to read them and they are all the same dream. A blue-grey lady is making zombie things that look like our friends and family chase us. Do you think trying to channel the lady will help? How does one channel? They said I did it before but I think I did was pass out.

You mentioned Spiritual Combat.....dreams of that??

We will need to begin with the Fundementals.....

Edited July 25, 2010 by Virtual Particle

[fae]

You mentioned Spiritual Combat.....dreams of that??

No the dreams were after. We fought this thing that showed itself as a dragon and was making my friend feel really drained and sick all the time. He is a lot better now and was almost right off. We were fighting when me and the other girl were jerked back to our bodies.

[Virtual Particle]

No the dreams were after. We fought this thing that showed itself as a dragon and was making my friend feel really drained and sick all the time. He is a lot better now and was almost right off. We were fighting when me and the other girl were jerked back to our bodies.

Fae what do you know about Farpoint??? Again, tell me about the dreams???

Fae I have worked with very unuiqe cases.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Virtual Particle