Conversion of children

[Man of Sorrows]

The Goddess has proven herself to me through letting me contact my spirit guide, letting my spells work, protecting my house, family, and myself, and guiding me through life. She has no name for she is existence in itself. She has no emotion, she has no personality, she simply IS. She is all of the universe and all of time; she has always existed. She is not forceful nor is she judgmental. She merely sets her children on a path that will lead them to live out their purpose and fulfill her potential. But please don't derail my thread. If you want to start a new thread based on this or PM me you can.

I'm not an expert on wicca. outside of a basic knowledge of witchcraft i know next to nothing. But i thought that Hecate was teh wiccan godess?

[WalkingWithFire]

I'm not an expert on wicca. outside of a basic knowledge of witchcraft i know next to nothing. But i thought that Hecate was teh wiccan godess?

Apparently there are a bunch of them with different names.

[Man of Sorrows]

Actually I'd have to disagree with you on Wiccans raising their children to be Wiccan. I don't plan on doing this, nor do many of the Wiccans I've met/read about. They don't feel that it's right and that people need to make their own decisions. I'm not saying this is the final word on the matter, but this is the common thing I've heard. And we don't really have enough time to teach about every single religion. Plus, what would parents say if their child came home and told them that they find a particular religion interesting? Most likely the parent will get upset with the school. That's why we don't touch on ANY kind of religion in school, because it's the easiest way to be fair.

I'd treat it like my parents. They said if i wanted to belive what they belive then thats fine and if i didn't belive what they belived i had the right to choose what i wanted to belive.

Apparently there are a bunch of them with different names.

I was asking otterwind. since you don't seem to understand your own religion i don't really take your word on others.

[WalkingWithFire]

I'd treat it like my parents. They said if i wanted to belive what they belive then thats fine and if i didn't belive what they belived i had the right to choose what i wanted to belive.

I was asking otterwind. since you don't seem to understand your own religion i don't really take your word on others.

Nice troll job.

Weren't you warned already today?

[Man of Sorrows]

Nice troll job.

Weren't you warned already today?

Not trolling i was simply saying that i was asking the person who belives it. Not you.

Not that i'm aware of.

[Lady Otterwynnd]

I'm not an expert on wicca. outside of a basic knowledge of witchcraft i know next to nothing. But i thought that Hecate was teh wiccan godess?

Some people say her name is Morrigan. But, she's often personified as the Maiden, Mother, and Crone, and most don't give her a name, nor is there a name given to her specifically in the actual religion itself. I personally think she has no name and is merely personified by every Goddess we know to exist. Same with the Wiccan God too. All Gods and Goddesses are essentially these two. Therefore all deities are in essence true, and one is not better or more "right" than the other. But, these are my OWN PERSONAL views, not the views of anyone else of the religion as a whole, so don't assume everyone else believes that.

[WalkingWithFire]

Not trolling i was simply saying that i was asking the person who belives it. Not you.

Not that i'm aware of.

Yes, you were already warned in the "Mark of the Beast" thread.

I know my faith very well. Thanks. Also, if you continue to troll and suggest I don't then I will report you now that you've been warned.

[Lady Otterwynnd]

Yes, you were already warned in the "Mark of the Beast" thread.

I know my faith very well. Thanks. Also, if you continue to troll and suggest I don't then I will report you now that you've been warned.

WWF, it's not like you haven't trolled either (in this very thread even). Don't be a hypocrite.

[WalkingWithFire]

WWF, it's not like you haven't trolled either (in this very thread even). Don't be a hypocrite.

Sorry, but you're the queen of trolling. Almost all your posts are fussing about how you think Christianity is false.

[Lady Otterwynnd]

Sorry, but you're the queen of trolling. Almost all your posts are fussing about how you think Christianity is false.

Oh, sorry for actually wanting to know more about your religion from an unbiased point of view and having the GUTS to discuss things that don't make sense. That's not trolling, fyi, it's having a legitimate discussion, unlike your thread about Goddesses.

[WalkingWithFire]

Oh, sorry for actually wanting to know more about your religion from an unbiased point of view and having the GUTS to discuss things that don't make sense. That's not trolling, fyi, it's having a legitimate discussion, unlike your thread about Goddesses.

How is my thread less legitimate? I want to know things that don't make sense to me about your religion/goddess.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

God isn't hidden. Millions if not billions of people have found God and developed a personal relationship with Him.

Can they prove his existence to others?

It might be a tad different in the States but here it would only really be parents 'brainwashing' their children. I understand why parents would bring up their children in their own faith - if I believed my child would burn in a fiery torment if they weren't Christian I would try to instil the belief in God. But likewise I wouldn't send my child off to school with just a little book of evolution and a kiss on the cheek. I would hope to be instilling what I see as a moral existence.

I most heartily disagree about morals/living an ethical life is only instilled through religion, if anything I perceive it as stunting and stifling humans morality. If you just stick to an archaic set of predefined rules there is no room for growth, to allow new knowledge and an increased understanding of the world around us to impact our choices. Perhaps that is why there is so much of this 'discernment' of biblical passages going on, as there is a natural human tendency to co-opt knew knowledge and ideas into our sense of self and place in the community.

I find this well said!

[Lady Otterwynnd]

How is my thread less legitimate? I want to know things that don't make sense to me about your religion/goddess.

Stop trying to derail my thread, please and thank you.

[Mr Walker]

Even routine emergency triage depends on valuation, cashed out as this one shall live, and that one shall be left to die.

Moral decision making is thirsty work. Personally, I have never understood what God brings to the task. We already have, and have always had, abstract principles by the bushel basket. What we need is an answer to what about Joe over there? Right now, yes or no, do we let him bleed out or patch the hole?

And if it were just Joe, and we had plenty of quick-patch at hand, then there would be no problem. But Sylvia over here is bleeding, too. And we can't be in two places at once.

Joe or Sylvia. Right now, on pain of losing both. Which is it? "Use the force, Luke" isn't going to cut it.

Oh, by the way, Joe is 90, Sylvia is 9. Months. Does it matter?

Thank you. I believe you have just illustrated the point i was trying to make, perfectly. In fact i had in mind medical and bioethical procedures as i wrote. How do the ethical systems on which triage or transplant decisions operate? They are constructed on principles from our belief systems. Where do our belief systems come from? oOr human consciousness.

Where do our spiritual elements come from? Our human consciousness. Because the two are inseperable, our values inherently contain our beliefs which are, by nature/biological imperative, spiritual or religious.

Examine the decisions which will be made about each of those patients, then examine the rationale behind each decision. I have never heard of, or experienced an example which is free from human intellectual/emotional bias.

And that is basically what faith is, a combination of emotional and intellectual biases, inherent through either evolution or design, in the human spirit or psyche.

When evolution or god pushed us past the animals basic biological imperatives and automated responses to environmental conditioning, it became necessary for us to have a compensating mechanism to make decisions by. Animals do not need to make decisions. Basically their responses are wired into them. Because humans have the ability to make moral choices it is evolutionary necessary for them to develop a mechanism which formalises this process.

One example animal mothers are driven by biological imperative to care for their offspring. They dont love them, because love is an intellectual construct requiring a sentience beyond that of animals. Thus animal mothers will almost always care and protect their young. The exceptions are when they know their offspring will not survive. Such offspring are abandoned, again through biological imperative to conserve the mother's resources. Often in the case of multiple births especially where this is rare, the weakest are abandoned in favour of those most likely to survive.

Human mothers, however, are able to step beyond their genetic, evolutionary, and programmed response to care for their children. While this programming still exists, and most mothers respond to it, our level of sentience and self awareness allows us to overcome it. Thus human mothers are much more likely to abandon their young than animals. They do so for many reasons, some selfish and some selfless. Likewise, humans are the only species to consciously choose to abort their young. All other species only abort when either the young is defected or where environmental conditions are too hard for it to survive

So as a species, perhaps as soon as a certain level of sentience evolved, we had (evolutionarily speaking) to evolve mechanisms to cope with this freedom from biological/environmental imperative. It is not surprisin,g and probably expected, that these mechanisms arose within the very sentience which freed us from the bonds of nature

We evolved belief systems and values around treatment of ourselves and others which then led as societies became more complex into ethical and moral systems or codes.

I understand those who disagree, but to me then our values and ethics are representative of our souls or spiritual element which exist in us just as our the rest of our sentience ( including logic, problem solving, ability to analyse and evaluate) does.

It is not possible for a human (without some sort of defect, such as a sociopath,) to make a decision which does not involve faith; anymore than to make one which does not involve some rational/ logical thought, or one which does not involve some emotional component.

All are an evolved (or created ) part of what we are as humans. A person has the ability not to listen to the logical part of their brain They have the choice not to listen to the emotional part. They have the ability to choose not to listen to the spiritual or faith based element either.

However, all these elements and perhaps others, such as our genetic and biological imperatives, exist within almost every human being, and whether we are aware of it or not, influence all our decisions on the subconscious level, even if we choose not to utilise them on the conscious level.

Edited April 8, 2008 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

Mr. Walker, Ethics and morality as long been taught by the use of the Greek and other philosophy for more than a thousand years. It has nothing to do with religion.

Darkwind, did you notice my opening pararagraph?

So ive been told, but it is difficult for me to see how.( Im not talking about religion as a formalised form of worship but of faith and a sense of spirituality whichis the cause of individual religions belief systems evolving)

Otherwise i am in general agreeance that many of the belief/ethical systems of formalised religions, because they have been adapted by men, do more harm than good

However i do see great good, and strengths for both individuals and societies, in the basic writings of the; bible, torah, koran, and other religious writings too difficult to spell

You will see from my further arguments that i believe all human ethical systems from neanderthal, through plato to future ai intelligences contain an element of faith and spirituality because that is an integral part of the human condition. (not necessarily because god made us so but perhaps because of inevitable evolutionary responses and conditioning)

It will be interesting to see, when quantum computers with a trillion times the processing ability of the human brain are completed, in a few years time, what sort of spiritual element they will evolve as part of their awakening sentience.

Edited April 8, 2008 by Mr Walker

[Man of Sorrows]

Yes, you were already warned in the "Mark of the Beast" thread.

I know my faith very well. Thanks. Also, if you continue to troll and suggest I don't then I will report you now that you've been warned.

But i wasn't warned.

[Man of Sorrows]

Some people say her name is Morrigan. But, she's often personified as the Maiden, Mother, and Crone, and most don't give her a name, nor is there a name given to her specifically in the actual religion itself. I personally think she has no name and is merely personified by every Goddess we know to exist. Same with the Wiccan God too. All Gods and Goddesses are essentially these two. Therefore all deities are in essence true, and one is not better or more "right" than the other. But, these are my OWN PERSONAL views, not the views of anyone else of the religion as a whole, so don't assume everyone else believes that.

So is Hecate the same as The Godess your talking about just another name for her?

[SheepOfTheMedia]

Because it's the only way to be fair. You need to see both sides of the argument before you make an educated decision. Besides, they'll learn about it in high school anyway, so there's no point in delaying the process.

um...why are you saying it's fair to brainwash kids into believing they're nothing but goop and human beings are no better than scum, instead of teaching them that God created them and that people are actually worth something?! i mean i don't mean to be rude but that really ticked me off. Even if Jesus didn't exist then at least these kids would be growing up with values. and why can't it be that kids are tough that they come from God?

[Lady Otterwynnd]

um...why are you saying it's fair to brainwash kids into believing they're nothing but goop and human beings are no better than scum, instead of teaching them that God created them and that people are actually worth something?! i mean i don't mean to be rude but that really ticked me off. Even if Jesus didn't exist then at least these kids would be growing up with values. and why can't it be that kids are tough that they come from God?

Because children need to need to be told both sides. I'm not saying one side is better than the other, but who are we to tell our future what's true and what's not? And morals and ethics don't have to be taught through religion. They can be BASED OFF OF the morals that come from religion, but they can still very easily be taught without religious undertones. Simply saying, not everyone is a Christian, so if we teach that in school, we'd be contradicting our own Consititutional right of the freedom of religion, as well as insulting those who aren't Christian. It's the only way to be fair.

[Lady Otterwynnd]

So is Hecate the same as The Godess your talking about just another name for her?

That might be stretching it, but essentially Hecate is one of the Goddesses that I believe my Goddess is personified as. Does my Goddess have the same personality, legends, and culture as Hecate? No. But in essence they are part of the same concept.

[Man of Sorrows]

That might be stretching it, but essentially Hecate is one of the Goddesses that I believe my Goddess is personified as. Does my Goddess have the same personality, legends, and culture as Hecate? No. But in essence they are part of the same concept.

I see. Thats very intresting.

[Lady Otterwynnd]

I see. Thats very intresting.

Try confusing. Some people aren't able to understand the complexities of these things.... But I'm glad you're able to ( or are trying to at the very least) see that these two figures are the same, and yet very different at the same time, in relation to my opinion of course.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

um...why are you saying it's fair to brainwash kids into believing they're nothing but goop and human beings are no better than scum, instead of teaching them that God created them and that people are actually worth something?! i mean i don't mean to be rude but that really ticked me off. Even if Jesus didn't exist then at least these kids would be growing up with values. and why can't it be that kids are tough that they come from God?

I really wouldn't say it's the foregone truth that they indeed came from God, since it is not proven to all that is a fact. You are exagerating by thinking that others are claiming that people are telling their kids that they are goop, when we say something about their existence and the beginnings of thier race, which I believe is more believable due to theories and relativity to the theories. And I wouldn't say for a fact that my kids came from God, cause I do not believe it as a fact. Being forced to say it's a fact, and to be forced to teach that it's a fact to my kids, I find very wrong. I don't know where it is being taught to kids, that humans are no better than scum, can you show where you read this please? Plus, values can be taught, even if God is not. Thank you very much!

[Condescending]

Let the kids make their own journey and tell them the facts we know to give them a fundation to start the journey from.

Facts is outside religion of any kind so I most definitely do not support conversion focused on kids, if religious people were pure of heart they should see it as a sin if you ask me.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Let the kids make their own journey and tell them the facts we know to give them a fundation to start the journey from.

Facts is outside religion of any kind so I most definitely do not support conversion focused on kids,

I can see that, facts outside of religion. It would probably be another way of how I have always seen it.

if religious people were pure of heart they should see it as a sin if you ask me.

Interesting way of seeing it. Interesting.