Dragons in Ireland

[Undeadskeptic]

Another dragon thread?

Mr.Nobody; GREAT links!!!

[Dragon Seeker]

Yes well this is the legands and myths surrounding Ireland, not a disscussion about wheather or not they are real, which i think they are

[Dariune99]

yeah i want to know more about it

Here is a basic outline of the Y Ddraig Goch myth. Right Here

UndeadSkeptic is it a problem that i created a dragon related thread? I actually came here to speak to like minded people about mythology and dragons happen to be my favorate.

I can assure you i am not like some, who would enforce my beliefs or damage threads if that is your concern. If it is merely dragons you oppose then i will try to keep my conversing about dragons limited to the threads that currently exist. I am aware that this board is not only for dragons so i will respect peoples wishes if they want no more threads on the creatures.

[WiCkEdWENDIGO]

Here is a basic outline of the Y Ddraig Goch myth. Right Here

UndeadSkeptic is it a problem that i created a dragon related thread? I actually came here to speak to like minded people about mythology and dragons happen to be my favorate.

I can assure you i am not like some, who would enforce my beliefs or damage threads if that is your concern. If it is merely dragons you oppose then i will try to keep my conversing about dragons limited to the threads that currently exist. I am aware that this board is not only for dragons so i will respect peoples wishes if they want no more threads on the creatures.

wow cool myth kudos on that

[draconic chronicler]

Dragons were extremely important in Irish mythology, however most of the legends were affected by the arrival of Chritianity. Irish dragons were almost universally portrayed as evil satanic beasts and it is difficult to get to the original stories.

When Saint Patrick reached Ireland, he began by ridding the country of snakes then went on to imprisoning the serpents and dragons.

One of the last dragons in Ireland was Paiste (Lig-na-Baste), a fire-breathing serpent from the beginning of time. He was still around when St Patrick died and was eventually subdued by the trickery of Saint Murrough. He still lives in the waters of Lough Foyle. From

http://www.dragonorama.com/western/celtic.html

More links...

http://www.fantasy-ireland.com/Celtic-dragons.html

http://www.blackdrago.com/famous_irish.htm .....this has some good stuff

The story of St. Murrough and the dragon Paiste has many elements that suggest it is quite early, and is one of the more "authentic" sounding stories based on my research of the conntection between 'dragons' and the heavenly 'flying serpent' Seraphim of the Bible. For centuries, it was common Christian knowledge that dragons were heavenly creatures, that would be called upon at the time of the Apocolypse to destroy the wicked in the world. In this light, the fact that the dragons was not slain and could actually 'argue' with the Saint that his rights were being violated would have made perfect sense to people familiar with early medieval Christian theology, though it may seem strange to those who are ignorant of the original theology. This is a far cry from stories like St. George, simply invented out of thin air hundreds of years later to make the life of a relatively obscure Saint more interesting. By this much later date, the dragons of Christian stories no longer talk, but are simply beasts to be slain to enhance the prowness of the hero.

This is one of the Saint and Dragon stories that is examined in detail in my book because of its 'authentic' elements that compliment what we know the ancient and early medieval church believed about dragons.

Edited April 18, 2008 by draconic chronicler

[Archosaur]

It seems more and more clear that St. Patrick driving out the serpents was a allegory for the elimination of pagan and dragon-based belief systems. As many on the boards have pointed out, many legends and poems use the term serpent and dragon interchangeably (a subject that often comes up in these discussions ).

Whether St. Patrick or the dragons were real is another argument. But it is clear that the previous belief system was changed, and that St. Patrick is symbolic of the overall process.

[The Maharaja]

It seems more and more clear that St. Patrick driving out the serpents was a allegory for the elimination of pagan and dragon-based belief systems. As many on the boards have pointed out, many legends and poems use the term serpent and dragon interchangeably (a subject that often comes up in these discussions ).

Whether St. Patrick or the dragons were real is another argument. But it is clear that the previous belief system was changed, and that St. Patrick is symbolic of the overall process.

Id agree with that

[draconic chronicler]

It seems more and more clear that St. Patrick driving out the serpents was a allegory for the elimination of pagan and dragon-based belief systems. As many on the boards have pointed out, many legends and poems use the term serpent and dragon interchangeably (a subject that often comes up in these discussions ).

Whether St. Patrick or the dragons were real is another argument. But it is clear that the previous belief system was changed, and that St. Patrick is symbolic of the overall process.

As I have suggested before, there may be a kernel of truth behind all ancient dragon legends, and there are actually some interesting similarities between the Murraugh/Patrick and Columba stories. If my theory that Yahweh is a dragon, as well as the seraphim assistants (for which there is quite overwhelming proof as you know) is correct, then 'local' British Isles dragons which preyed on 'pagans' with impunity for centuries, and played their gods, may have been forced to 'cease and desist' preying on the newly converted "Yahweh worshippers" or depart the area, exactly as related..

If we are to take the legend at face value, Nessie for example, had just killed/perhaps eaten one man and was chasing another when Columba warned the beast that he 'worked for Yahweh' and could no longer harm the people who would now worship Yahweh. This dragon seemed quite startled by this information, probably related in a civilized tongue like Lain, and desisted from the attack. In this case the dragon decided to stay in the region, but we have no later accounts of it preying on humans.

In Ireland too, and in the same time period two Saints converting pagans to worship Yahweh, persuade dragons to either leave, or like Nessie, stay in lakes and subsist on a non-human diet, as in the case of "Paiste", who seems to be an ancient dragon familiar to the earlier pagan culture.

There is a popular conception that the pre Christian pagans of the British Isles regarded dragons as 'good', but for all we know, may have freely fed them human offerings so they would remain 'good', which may be why the efforts of the early christian saints to 'tame' them or drive them away were appreciated so much, and why the people were quickly converted to new beliefs (which in that period were not new at all, and still full of dragons, as very few Christians realize.)

Of course, this has no connection with the utterly ridiculous dragonslaying Saint stories like George, where we can see they were complete farications, even to the point of knowing the author who invented it.

[eight bits]

Whether St. Patrick or the dragons were real is another argument.

Patrick is a well-attested historical figure. While many of the incidents of his ministry are obvious signs-and-wonder tales, the man lived in historical times, and was literate himself. His Confessio, generally regarded as authentic, may be read in translation here:

http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/p01.html

another electronic version, with references to manuscript sources and commentaries is here.

http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/L201060/index.html

There never were any snakes in Ireland, as discussed here:

http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Animals/Reptiles...elandsnakes.cfm

The "Irish" mythic material that we read is heavily stepped on by Christian scribes. They were certainly not above frank injections of allegory here and there, and they were the inheritors (and for a time, conservators) of continental scholarship, presumably infected with dragon lore.

It is very difficult to unscramble that omelet at this late date, to arrive at specifically Irish belief, especially since the Irish Celts did not write down their own religious lore.

[The Gremlin]

good work!

[draconic chronicler]

Patrick is a well-attested historical figure. While many of the incidents of his ministry are obvious signs-and-wonder tales, the man lived in historical times, and was literate himself. His Confessio, generally regarded as authentic, may be read in translation here:

http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/p01.html

another electronic version, with references to manuscript sources and commentaries is here.

http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/L201060/index.html

There never were any snakes in Ireland, as discussed here:

http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Animals/Reptiles...elandsnakes.cfm

The "Irish" mythic material that we read is heavily stepped on by Christian scribes. They were certainly not above frank injections of allegory here and there, and they were the inheritors (and for a time, conservators) of continental scholarship, presumably infected with dragon lore.

It is very difficult to unscramble that omelet at this late date, to arrive at specifically Irish belief, especially since the Irish Celts did not write down their own religious lore.

Did anyone ever say there were any snakes in ireland in this thread?

To be sure, the Christian religious lore preserved in Ireland in the dark ages was full of dragon lore, but NOT of the 'slay the evil dragon' kind. Contemporary Chjristan artifacts and text acknowledge dragons as powerful assistant of God that were sent to punish the wicked, and even in the Irish Paiste legend, it was believe the monster would be released to wreak heavenly retribution on judgement day just as the dragons controlled by Gabriel in heaven, an idea nurtured by the draconic seraphim of the old tetament as well as later scriptures popular with early Christians such as Enoch and the Apoc. of Baruch.

Most of the dragonslaying literature of Christian theology all comes from one author and one book, written hundreds of years after the stories of Columba and Patrick. There was no conspiracy for Christianity to portray all dragons as evil, and from the devil, for during this period, the Chruch leaders, in their own religious studies and correspondence believed dragons were heavenly creatures, and the most knowledgeable had to have known Yahweh Himself was regarded as a dragon in some ancient scriptures.

[Lady Otterwynnd]

Did anyone ever say there were any snakes in ireland in this thread?

To be sure, the Christian religious lore preserved in Ireland in the dark ages was full of dragon lore, but NOT of the 'slay the evil dragon' kind. Contemporary Chjristan artifacts and text acknowledge dragons as powerful assistant of God that were sent to punish the wicked, and even in the Irish Paiste legend, it was believe the monster would be released to wreak heavenly retribution on judgement day just as the dragons controlled by Gabriel in heaven, an idea nurtured by the draconic seraphim of the old tetament as well as later scriptures popular with early Christians such as Enoch and the Apoc. of Baruch.

Most of the dragonslaying literature of Christian theology all comes from one author and one book, written hundreds of years after the stories of Columba and Patrick. There was no conspiracy for Christianity to portray all dragons as evil, and from the devil, for during this period, the Chruch leaders, in their own religious studies and correspondence believed dragons were heavenly creatures, and the most knowledgeable had to have known Yahweh Himself was regarded as a dragon in some ancient scriptures.

I BELIEVE that was stated in the Op, so yes, snakes never existing in Ireland has been mentioned. And since when did dragons "prey on Pagans?" Source?Pagans worshipped dragons, you know, and THIS is why the Christians wanted to portray them as evil. If the deities you worship are evil, then you have to be converted asap. It was just used to control Pagans. Any source for these "ancient Christian texts" that acknowledge dragons as powerful assistants to God? (FYI, Loch Ness is in Scotland, not Ireland, so you just kind of proved you don't know what the heck you're talking about.)

[Archosaur]

I BELIEVE that was stated in the Op, so yes, snakes never existing in Ireland has been mentioned. And since when did dragons "prey on Pagans?" Source?Pagans worshipped dragons, you know, and THIS is why the Christians wanted to portray them as evil. If the deities you worship are evil, then you have to be converted asap. It was just used to control Pagans. Any source for these "ancient Christian texts" that acknowledge dragons as powerful assistants to God? (FYI, Loch Ness is in Scotland, not Ireland, so you just kind of proved you don't know what the heck you're talking about.)

Aside from the last jab, Otter, I am in complete agreement. There is little to suggest that the pagans of the isles regarded the dragons of their myths as hostile. As has been documented many times, the missionaries literally deionized the deities (some of whom, in this case, were dragons) of the natives. This is most likely the source of the "dragon-slaying" myths of Christian Europe: Saints portrayed as destroying the dragons that were representative of the old pagan deities. Since the old gods are now demons, any who kept the old faith was in league with the Devil, and could be executed.

Edited April 20, 2008 by Archosaur

[draconic chronicler]

I BELIEVE that was stated in the Op, so yes, snakes never existing in Ireland has been mentioned. And since when did dragons "prey on Pagans?" Source?Pagans worshipped dragons, you know, and THIS is why the Christians wanted to portray them as evil. If the deities you worship are evil, then you have to be converted asap. It was just used to control Pagans. Any source for these "ancient Christian texts" that acknowledge dragons as powerful assistants to God? (FYI, Loch Ness is in Scotland, not Ireland, so you just kind of proved you don't know what the heck you're talking about.)

I never said Loch Ness was in Ireland. I said these were similar stories from the similar time period. You cannot be so dumb as to think I do not know where Loch Ness is.

And we know almost nothing about the dragon legands of the pagan British. Dragons seemed to prey on the ancient Germans and Vikings.

The 'pagans' may have worshipped the dragons, much as Yahweh was worshipped, though the dragons may have expected offerings of at least domestic animals. much like Yahweh. They may have been genuinely relieved if the Saints made the dragons leave, or retreat to the deep lakes.

Yes, there are many instances of heavenly dragon servants. I have mentioned many before. First, real hebrew scholars know the Seraphim are winged reptiles. The Christians understood this too, as we see in decorations of Bible covers of God judging sinners on a throne of dragon tails with the dragons swallowing thos who don't pass. They also believed the Cherubim were dragons, and medieval bibles portray god riding a dragon in the books of Psalms and II Samual. The Book of Enoch places Gabriel in charge of the dragons, the Apoc. of Baruch describes dragons in heaven that consume the wicked, a dragon helps build Solomons temple in the testament of Solomon, in post Biblical Jewish lore, God answers a prayer by seding a dragon to devour an evil governor of Babylon who presecuted the Jews there. The list goes on and on.

The anti-dragon christian conspiracy is largely a fallacy. Nearly all of the Christian dragonslaying stories are very late products of a single book, including the St. George nonsense. They were written LONG after the period whcich the pagan were actually being converted. In these times, heavenly dragons were full acknowledged. Those stories weren't to convert pagans, they were written to make peasants be more interested in the otherwise boring lives of Saints before the dragons were added. The more authentic, older stories are more ones where a saint tames a dragon, more in line with acting as Jesus would act.

[Undeadskeptic]

Here is a basic outline of the Y Ddraig Goch myth. Right Here

UndeadSkeptic is it a problem that i created a dragon related thread? I actually came here to speak to like minded people about mythology and dragons happen to be my favorate.

I can assure you i am not like some, who would enforce my beliefs or damage threads if that is your concern. If it is merely dragons you oppose then i will try to keep my conversing about dragons limited to the threads that currently exist. I am aware that this board is not only for dragons so i will respect peoples wishes if they want no more threads on the creatures.

Oh no no problem at all. I am merely tired and to be fair very bored of the thousands of dragon topics that this forum is infested with. Its like a rash, and the more you itch it, the more it grows!

[Saru]

There are only three currently active dragon threads, if you don't wish to discuss dragons then the easiest solution is to simply avoid viewing or contributing to those threads.

[Dragon Seeker]

Here is a basic outline of the Y Ddraig Goch myth. Right Here

UndeadSkeptic is it a problem that i created a dragon related thread? I actually came here to speak to like minded people about mythology and dragons happen to be my favorate.

I can assure you i am not like some, who would enforce my beliefs or damage threads if that is your concern. If it is merely dragons you oppose then i will try to keep my conversing about dragons limited to the threads that currently exist. I am aware that this board is not only for dragons so i will respect peoples wishes if they want no more threads on the creatures.

Thanks for a great web link it really sounds interesting and its definalty one of my fav legands now

also who knew that Final Fantasy posted so many things based on mythology its facinating really (why because they have something like that legand in FF12 and wow i mean way to make the game cool right?)

but anyways its a great link and great legands are there Thanks!!

[WraithGod]

Oh no no problem at all. I am merely tired and to be fair very bored of the thousands of dragon topics that this forum is infested with. Its like a rash, and the more you itch it, the more it grows!

It's not the sheer number, it's that the content is the same - it's always certain people jumping in, and then the other half of the argument falls on them like a pack of wolves and the same old fight continues. But my first post here was bumping a million-year-old Megalodon post, if I remember correctly, so I'm not hating. =P

"In Ireland the legend goes that there are no snakes or indeed dragons (mythologically speaking) in Ireland."

Doot de doo, not making another reminder about the topic, nope, not at all.

I've always thought the St. Patrick legend was akin to those stories like how the bear lost its tail and how the giraffe's neck got long. Giraffes (in human history) never had short necks, and bears never had long tails, but people created tales using existing figures to try and explain the phenomena. However, could it be that the specific term "snakes" came about through mistranslation and originally referred to all reptiles, or that "snakes" or "serpents" and "dragons" essentially mean the same thing? Historically they're very interchangeable, and large reptiles are even referred to as dragons in modern times.

I'm quite proud of my Irish roots, myself, I've always found the ancient peoples from that part of Europe to be utterly fascinating. I have to admit I'd never really thought of dragons as an Irish concept at all though, but those were some neat links to read. ^___^

[Dariune99]

Sorry about my late reply, ive had a manic week.

There have certainly been some interesting things said (and a few predictibly uninteresting things said)

I agree with Archosaur that the stories of St patrick relating to dragons were a symbol of Christianities overall progressive dominance in Ireland.

I believe that the tale of Ollipeist was also a way of explaining why there are no snakes in Ireland. As i have mentioned before, i believe anything not obviously explainable was eventually tied in with a myth to make it explainable.

DC, please stop going on about Yahweh and your dragon religion. Its getting extremely boring. Better yet, create a thread about it and stay in that thread. I can understand why people are getting bored of dragon threads. You, whether it be for jest or a misunderstanding them, are making them monotonous. So much so that im struggling with the dragon thread and i am passionate about dragons.

Thanks everyone for contributing to this thread. You have given me several places to look.

One more question, other than the Dragon cave, Loughcrew and the lake of Tara (i think) does anyone know of any Irish places tied in with draconic legend?

Just out of interest.

[just passing through]

I noticed the link to the Ddraig backstory was down so I thought I'd add a rough summary. Take in mind this is a rough approximation from a variety of sources but the gist of the tale seems to be the same across the board.

Ddraig is first mentioned in the tale of King Lludd, who had recently inherited the throne from his father, the late King Beli. Though Lludd's reign starts off auspiciously, founding 'Caer Lludd', which would later to become London, it is soon beset by three plagues: The invasion of the sharp-eared Coraniaid, a horrid scream that comes every May Day that causes all pregnant women to miscarry, & provisions that disappear from Ludd's stores overnight no matter how much he fills or guards them.

The second plague is revealed to be the roar of a red dragon (Ddraig) as it battled against another, white dragon. To end the conflict, Lludd seeks advice from his brother King Llefelys of France, who tells him to go dig a deep pit 'In the center of Britain' (Oxford apparently) & lure the dragons into it by filling it with Mead. Once the Dragons were passed out drunk (Lightweights) Lludd and his men buried them alive, wrapped in cloth, before moving onto the last of the plagues, which turned out to be a wizard (go figure).

Ddraig's tale doesn't end there however. For Centuries the dragons remained beneath Dinas Emrys until King Vortigern the Usurper, wanting an edge over the competition, decided to build a new castle right on top of them, only for the foundations to be destroyed every night due to 'unexplained earthquakes'. Understandably p***ed due to the delay and dent in his coffers, Vortigern approached his advisers, who tell him to find and sacrifice a 'boy with no natural father'.

The boy in question, who in some versions of the tale is said to be a young Merlin, is understandably none-too-eager to be sacrificed and so tells Vortigern to dig up the hill, releasing the two Dragons, who quickly renew their conflict, ending in the death of the White Dragon. The boy (Merlin for the sake of continuity) tells Vortigern the White dragon symbolizes the Saxons while the Red symbolizes Vortigern's people, (The people of Britain the Saxons failed to subdue who eventually became the Welsh).

Ironically, Ddraig also served as the symbol of King Arthur, (His last name 'Pendragon' translates to 'Dragon's Head') who in some tales is said to have overthrown Vortigern using the sword that Vortigern himself had hammered into an anvil as a symbol of his power & right to rule. There is also a popular belief that Ddraig's victory foretold the coming of Arthur, as the Kings shield bore the symbol of the Red Dragon, though this may be a romanticism.

[just passing through]

As for 'Dragons' in Celtic/Irish Mythology, most of the tales I've come across seem to describe 'Serpents' or 'Wyrms' rather than dragons, which would tie into the whole 'St. Patrick chasing the snakes/Serpents' out of Ireland theme mentioned earlier.

One conflicting account I've run into is the legend of Fionn Mac Cumhail (Yes, the 'giant' who built the causeway) and 'Áillen 'he Burner', who would burn Tara to the ground every year at Samhain (Celtic Halloween) with his fiery breath after lulling all the inhabitants to sleep with his music. While the slaying of Áillen earned Fionn leadership of the Fianna, in some versions of the tale, Áillen is said to be a dragon and in others he is a member Tuatha Dé Danann who only took the form of a Dragon to burn Tara.

[Podo]

58 minutes ago, just passing through said:

As for 'Dragons' in Celtic/Irish Mythology, most of the tales I've come across seem to describe 'Serpents' or 'Wyrms' rather than dragons, which would tie into the whole 'St. Patrick chasing the snakes/Serpents' out of Ireland theme mentioned earlier.

One conflicting account I've run into is the legend of Fionn Mac Cumhail (Yes, the 'giant' who built the causeway) and 'Áillen 'he Burner', who would burn Tara to the ground every year at Samhain (Celtic Halloween) with his fiery breath after lulling all the inhabitants to sleep with his music. While the slaying of Áillen earned Fionn leadership of the Fianna, in some versions of the tale, Áillen is said to be a dragon and in others he is a member Tuatha Dé Danann who only took the form of a Dragon to burn Tara.

Even if he took the form of a dragon, wouldn't that still count as a dragon, as far as mythology is concerned?

[just passing through]

51 minutes ago, Podo said:

Even if he took the form of a dragon, wouldn't that still count as a dragon, as far as mythology is concerned?

True enough but I can't confirm if that's an original aspect of the legend or a 'Modern addition' to make the tale more interesting, which has always been a pet peeve of mine, like how they try to white-wash all the blood out of stories to make them more appealing to children.

Case in point, a friend and I went to see a Theater play depicting a version of Sleeping Beauty based on the 'original' story, not the one popularized by Disney. A teacher had brought her students to watch the play as well (young kids, late kindergarten-primary school) under the assumption it 'wouldn't be that bad. Schadenfreude ensued.

[Podo]

14 minutes ago, just passing through said:

True enough but I can't confirm if that's an original aspect of the legend or a 'Modern addition' to make the tale more interesting, which has always been a pet peeve of mine, like how they try to white-wash all the blood out of stories to make them more appealing to children.

Case in point, a friend and I went to see a Theater play depicting a version of Sleeping Beauty based on the 'original' story, not the one popularized by Disney. A teacher had brought her students to watch the play as well (young kids, late kindergarten-primary school) under the assumption it 'wouldn't be that bad. Schadenfreude ensued.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes, I guess. Just like all those parents who took their little kids to see Deadpool.

[just passing through]

Just now, Podo said:

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes, I guess. Just like all those parents who took their little kids to see Deadpool.

True enough. So yeah, most of the Irish 'Dragons' tend to be Sea Serpents or Wyrms (Winged Serpents) from what little I've seen, so it was kind of a surprise for me to find Áillen depicted as a more traditional 'western' dragon like Ddraig in some of the stories where he assumes that form. Then again I have heard that Dragons like music, so it might fit considering he lulled people to sleep before burning them to death.