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ATLANTIS FOUND (By Me) In The SAHARA


The Puzzler

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Personally I like the very last words of the Iliad...

"Hector..tamer of horses."

How ironic is that?

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Poseidon has never died or ended anyhow that I know of Q. Not even in myth.

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Someone asked me if it was possible that Plato had finished the story. The possibility that Plato may have finished his story is due to something that was said concerning a roman library that was buried in Herculeanum. The archeologists who found the private roman library also discovered the scrolls had been carbonized in the heat. Thinking that some day someone might find a way to read those scrolls he had the library sealed against the elements. Smart man. We now have the ability to read those charred scrolls. In mentioning the possible lost books to be found, they mentioned Atlantis. I guess if the writings of Plato are found there, we might learn if the story was actually finished or not.

Has anyone heard about this recently

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Someone asked me if it was possible that Plato had finished the story. The possibility that Plato may have finished his story is due to something that was said concerning a roman library that was buried in Herculeanum. The archeologists who found the private roman library also discovered the scrolls had been carbonized in the heat. Thinking that some day someone might find a way to read those scrolls he had the library sealed against the elements. Smart man. We now have the ability to read those charred scrolls. In mentioning the possible lost books to be found, they mentioned Atlantis. I guess if the writings of Plato are found there, we might learn if the story was actually finished or not.

Has anyone heard about this recently

Not me but I ask....what is there to add to Critias? Does anyone really expect Plato to have written what Zeus 'spake'??

It is up to us to work it out, the riddle. Cuts off rather conveniently as Zeus is about to speak...nah it's finished, nobody really gave a toss about it until around 1700AD, there would be no reason for any Roman to have hidden that work if found back then...as far as I can see but I will look more into it.

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Thus he spoke and Mercury, guide and guardian, slayer of Argus, did as he was told. Forthwith he bound on his glittering golden sandals with which he could fly like the wind over land and sea; he took the wand with which he seals men's eyes in sleep, or wakes them just as he pleases, and flew holding it in his hand till he came to Troy and to the Hellespont.

Unless you wanna start sticking the Hellespont somewhere else but where it is, Troy is situated where it is, I can see how you can get to the Balkans but the words are there that place it where it is really.

Funny story about it by Herodotus...

According to Herodotus (vv.34), both bridges were destroyed by a storm and Xerxes had those responsible for building the bridges beheaded and the strait itself whipped. The Histories of Herodotus vii.33-37 and vii.54-58 give details of Xerxes' building and crossing of the bridges. Xerxes is then said to have thrown fetters into the strait, given it three hundred lashes and branded it with red-hot irons as the soldiers shouted at the water. [2]

Herodotus commented that this was a "highly presumptuous way to address the Hellespont" but in no way atypical of Xerxes. (vii.35)

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Yes, I have, thanks. You can find the war of Troy in the Balkans, I have read it all and it does fit, shem-tov here was of that thought...it also fits in England and other places. Interesting theory for sure in the Balkans. I have also done Atlantis in the Baltic, can make much sense, got there from tales of Hyperborea and the Pole Star...but I am back to the original now because they all had dead ends.

I meant to say it does fit, if you make it, just like we can fit Atlantis anywhere but to stay true to the writings these areas are defined if you ask me, both Atlantis and Troy on where they are...

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Thus did she too speak through her tears with bitter moan, and then Helen for a third time took up the strain of lamentation. "Hector," said she, "dearest of all my brothers-in-law-for I am wife to Alexandrus who brought me hither to Troy- would that I had died ere he did so- twenty years are come and gone since I left my home and came from over the sea, but I have never heard one word of insult or unkindness from you. When another would chide with me, as it might be one of your brothers or sisters or of your brothers' wives, or my mother-in-law- for Priam was as kind to me as though he were my own father- you would rebuke and check them with words of gentleness and goodwill. Therefore my tears flow both for you and for my unhappy self, for there is no one else in Troy who is kind to me, but all shrink and shudder as they go by me."

She wept as she spoke and the vast crowd that was gathered round her joined in her lament. Then King Priam spoke to them saying, "Bring wood, O Trojans, to the city, and fear no cunning ambush of the Argives, for Achilles when he dismissed me from the ships gave me his word that they should not attack us until the morning of the twelfth day."

Forthwith they yoked their oxen and mules and gathered together before the city. Nine days long did they bring in great heaps wood, and on the morning of the tenth day with many tears they took trave Hector forth, laid his dead body upon the summit of the pile, and set the fire thereto. Then when the child of morning rosy-fingered dawn appeared on the eleventh day, the people again assembled, round the pyre of mighty Hector. When they were got together, they first quenched the fire with wine wherever it was burning, and then his brothers and comrades with many a bitter tear gathered his white bones, wrapped them in soft robes of purple, and laid them in a golden urn, which they placed in a grave and covered over with large stones set close together. Then they built a barrow hurriedly over it keeping guard on every side lest the Achaeans should attack them before they had finished. When they had heaped up the barrow they went back again into the city, and being well assembled they held high feast in the house of Priam their king.

Thus, then, did they celebrate the funeral of Hector tamer of horses.

Always seems to me that the Trojans were the good guys.

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Critias: This I infer because Solon said that the priests in their narrative of that war mentioned most of the names which are recorded prior to the time of Theseus, such as Cecrops, and Erechtheus, and Erichthonius, and Erysichthon, and the names of the women in like manner.

Wiki: The mythical King Erichthonius of Dardania was the son of Dardanus or Darda[citation needed], King of Dardania, and Batea, (although some legends say his mother was Olizone, descendant of Phineus).

Fundamentally, all that is known of this Erichthonius comes from Homer, who says (Samuel Butler's translation of Iliad 20.215-234):

"In the beginning Dardanos was the son of Zeus, and founded Dardania, for Ilion was not yet established on the plain for men to dwell in, and her people still abode on the spurs of many-fountained Ida. Dardanos had a son, king Erichthonios, who was wealthiest of all men living; he had three thousand mares that fed by the water-meadows, they and their foals with them. Boreas was enamored of them as they were feeding, and covered them in the semblance of a dark-maned stallion. Twelve filly foals did they conceive and bear him, and these, as they sped over the fertile plain, would go bounding on over the ripe ears of wheat and not break them; or again when they would disport themselves on the broad back of Ocean they could gallop on the crest of a breaker. Erichthonios begat Tros, king of the Trojans,and Tros had three noble sons, Ilos, Assarakos, and Ganymede who was comeliest of mortal men; wherefore the gods carried him off to be Zeus' cupbearer, for his beauty's sake, that he might dwell among the immortals."

John Tzetzes and one of the scholia to Lycophron call his wife Astyoche, daughter of Simoeis. Apollodorus also adds Erichthonius' older brother Ilus, who died young and childless; presumably a doublet of the other Ilus, grandson of Erichthonius, eponym of Troy.

Strabo (13.1.48) records, but discounts, the claim by "some more recent writers" that Teucer came from the deme of Xypeteones in Attica, supposedly called Troes (meaning Trojans) in mythical times. These writers mentioned that Erichthonius appears as founder both in Attica and the Troad, and may be identifying the two.

Remember I said the word GAdeiros was Attic,(Athens) not Ionian as Herodotus had written it. This all has to do with Priams ancestry, his mother's name was Luceippe. (In case, no one gets it...this was the name of the mother of Cleito) It is also recorded that one of Laomedons daughters, sister of Hesione and Priam is name Clytodora.....so, look at this way....a daughter of Luceippe is Clytodora....hmmm Clytodora...Cleito PS: Laomedon has 10 children

Wiki - Laomedon:

Laomedon's two wives are Strymo (or Rhoeo) and Leucippe; by the former he begot Tithonus and by the latter King Priam

Apollodorus 3.12.3

Laomedon married Strymo; Some say the wife of Laomedon was Placia; Some say the wife of Laomedon was Leucippe; Tithonus, Lampus, Clytius, Hicetaon, Podarces, five sons, and Hesione, Cilla, and Astyoche, three daughters, of Laomedon; Bucolion, son of Laomedon by the nymph Calybe;

http://www.csulb.edu/~dbouvier/SourceFiles/i179Sources.htm

Edited to add source.

And this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laomedon

If you see the family tree it also has Electra (a daughter of Atlas) at the head.

Edited by The Puzzler
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I think I speciffically mentioned the Illiad.

Look into that one.

Google "Homer" and "Celtic", at the same time, please.

There are many who say that Homer's desriptions of the Troy battlefield, the weather, the things used, the ceremonies, and all that, have nothing to do with Greece or Greece history.

Here's the thing I think...it is not Greek because it was not Greece as we know it at the time.

One side were Archaeans, who were a mix of groups, tribes, each with their own fighting and ceremonial styles..one being Agamemnon, who was not Greek nor European, but from Anatolia according to myth. It is not really set in Greece but modern day Turkey.

Here's another thing, Homer was not there...he has heard this probably 10th hand story or tale or poem and relayed it as he has, I would not be inclined to place to much exactness on his details of land layouts, he would have to have adapted some of it at least...I think placement is crucial but layout maybe not so much. I still question the Hisarlik site as true Troy though...

Edited by The Puzzler
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laomedon

Family Tree of Laomedon, but I don't see any Luceippe in there as Priam's mother.

She is not important enough to be on that family tree, Electra I mentioned headed it, a daughter of Atlas but on the same page you just linked as the family tree it says this first...

In Greek mythology, Laomedon was a Trojan king, son of Ilus, brother of Ganymedes and father of Priam, Astyoche, Lampus, Hicetaon, Clytius, Cilla, Proclia, Aethilla, Clytodora, and Hesione. Tithonus is also described by most sources as Laomedon's eldest legitimate son; and most sources omit Ganymedes from the list of Laomedon's children, but indicate him as his uncle instead. Laomedon's two wives are Strymo (or Rhoeo) and Leucippe; by the former he begot Tithonus and by the latter King Priam

Edited by The Puzzler
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Abramelin... on a northern European setting:

The Iliad and the Odyssey are epic poems – legends. Though there is no doubt they have a historical aspect to them, the question is how much, what precisely, and whether there is sufficient material that will ever allow a precise location “somewhere” in Northern Europe.

Epic poems also have a symbolic nature. Ulysses’ voyage in the Odyssey is often seen as being a description of a man’s initiation into a mystery cult; some of the battles have an archetypal nature. And in the past century, astronomical connotations to ancient myths are slowly been discovered. For Edna Leigh, as recounted in “Homer’s Secret Iliad” by Florence and Kenneth Wood, the Iliad was indeed not a historical, but an astronomical text. In fact, she felt it was the world’s oldest substantial astronomical text. She believed that the Iliad was created to preserve ancient knowledge of the heavens.

There are star names listed in the Iliad, so at the very least, the text has some astronomical connection. Furthermore, sailing instructions in the Odyssey are given with such confidence that they must reflect the learning of a man who could use the skies for practical purposes. But Leigh went much further than these basic astronomical observations. Eventually, she would identify no less than 650 stars and 45 constellations in the Iliad. Her strongest point is the Catalogue of Ship, which is believed to have been the oldest part of the Iliad. But equally, it is the most boring; it is literally a catalogue of ships that participate in the attack on Troy… a very boring part of an otherwise great epic. So boring that it could indeed be an index – or catalogue – of… stars.

Leigh detected an underlying logic in the epic. She realised that the main warriors of the Iliad were stars; the brighter the star, the more powerful the warrior was. Their victims were always the less bright stars. When seen as such, the Greek and Trojan regiments represented 45 constellations; The commanders and leaders were the seventy-three brightest stars in the constellations, such as Aeneas (Spica), Agamemnon (Regulus), Menelaus (Antares), Aias (Canopus), Patroclus (Procyon), Paris (Betelgeuse) and of course Odysseus (Arcturus).

Fleam Dyke

So: where is Troy? For Leigh, Troy is the universe, as we see it: the night’s sky. The scheming and battles were the futile efforts to halt the precession of the equinoxes, specifically the decline of Thuban in Draco as the pole star and the return of Sirius, the brightest star, to the skies of Greece – for that is indeed the location where she places it. Sirius was identified with the hero Achilles, the greatest warrior at Troy. Hence also why Achilles is known to chase Hector… Orion.

In summary, Leigh interpreted the epic as a battle in the sky, visible from roughly 2800 BC and ending in ca. 1800 BC. Still, as the return of Sirius to our skies occurred in the 9th millennium BC, she argued that the entire story began then, with the return of Achilles to the field of battle (ca. 8900 BC), the story ending in ca. 2200 BC, shortly before the arrival of the new pole star.

Achilles' return to the battlefield, to which Homer devotes several books, is indeed a moment of astronomical importance. It is one of the most elaborate descriptions, with the smith-god Hephaestus creating a new shield for Achilles: “He wrought the Earth, the heavens, and the sea, the Moon also at her full and the untiring Sun, with all the signs that glorify the face of Heaven – the Pleiades, the Hyades, huge Orion, and the Bear, which man also call the Wain and which turns round forever in one place, facing Orion and alone never dips into the stream Oceanus.” These particular constellations mark the area of the night sky in which Sirius and its constellation, Canis Major, reappeared.

So, Troy is likely “out there”: it marked a time of change, in the night’s sky, an observation that was perhaps made by those great astronomers of the megalithic civilisation, who are renowned for incorporating astronomical alignments in their stone circles. But what about the Northern setting of the epic, and the great age of 8900 BC? Sirius’ apparition in Northern Europe was later than in Greece. And hence, perhaps the epic of Troy is indeed a battle of the skies, but perhaps those recording these changes did not live in Greece, but in Northern Europe. This would make Homer’s Iliad and Odyssey not only the epic tales of a lost age, but of a lost civilisation.

I even did an artwork on Thuban, complete with drawn dragon and digital Universe program, Mt Meru ties in to it as the pillar, which all represents Atlas in the long run.

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Sorry, deleted post.

Edited by The Puzzler
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Abramelin... on a northern European setting:

The Iliad and the Odyssey are epic poems legends. Though there is no doubt they have a historical aspect to them, the question is how much, what precisely, and whether there is sufficient material that will ever allow a precise location "somewhere" in Northern Europe.

Epic poems also have a symbolic nature. Ulysses' voyage in the Odyssey is often seen as being a description of a man's initiation into a mystery cult; some of the battles have an archetypal nature. And in the past century, astronomical connotations to ancient myths are slowly been discovered. For Edna Leigh, as recounted in "Homer's Secret Iliad" by Florence and Kenneth Wood, the Iliad was indeed not a historical, but an astronomical text. In fact, she felt it was the world's oldest substantial astronomical text. She believed that the Iliad was created to preserve ancient knowledge of the heavens.

There are star names listed in the Iliad, so at the very least, the text has some astronomical connection. Furthermore, sailing instructions in the Odyssey are given with such confidence that they must reflect the learning of a man who could use the skies for practical purposes. But Leigh went much further than these basic astronomical observations. Eventually, she would identify no less than 650 stars and 45 constellations in the Iliad. Her strongest point is the Catalogue of Ship, which is believed to have been the oldest part of the Iliad. But equally, it is the most boring; it is literally a catalogue of ships that participate in the attack on Troy… a very boring part of an otherwise great epic. So boring that it could indeed be an index or catalogue of… stars.

Leigh detected an underlying logic in the epic. She realised that the main warriors of the Iliad were stars; the brighter the star, the more powerful the warrior was. Their victims were always the less bright stars. When seen as such, the Greek and Trojan regiments represented 45 constellations; The commanders and leaders were the seventy-three brightest stars in the constellations, such as Aeneas (Spica), Agamemnon (Regulus), Menelaus (Antares), Aias (Canopus), Patroclus (Procyon), Paris (Betelgeuse) and of course Odysseus (Arcturus).

Fleam Dyke

So: where is Troy? For Leigh, Troy is the universe, as we see it: the night's sky. The scheming and battles were the futile efforts to halt the precession of the equinoxes, specifically the decline of Thuban in Draco as the pole star and the return of Sirius, the brightest star, to the skies of Greece for that is indeed the location where she places it. Sirius was identified with the hero Achilles, the greatest warrior at Troy. Hence also why Achilles is known to chase Hector… Orion.

In summary, Leigh interpreted the epic as a battle in the sky, visible from roughly 2800 BC and ending in ca. 1800 BC. Still, as the return of Sirius to our skies occurred in the 9th millennium BC, she argued that the entire story began then, with the return of Achilles to the field of battle (ca. 8900 BC), the story ending in ca. 2200 BC, shortly before the arrival of the new pole star.

Achilles' return to the battlefield, to which Homer devotes several books, is indeed a moment of astronomical importance. It is one of the most elaborate descriptions, with the smith-god Hephaestus creating a new shield for Achilles: "He wrought the Earth, the heavens, and the sea, the Moon also at her full and the untiring Sun, with all the signs that glorify the face of Heaven the Pleiades, the Hyades, huge Orion, and the Bear, which man also call the Wain and which turns round forever in one place, facing Orion and alone never dips into the stream Oceanus." These particular constellations mark the area of the night sky in which Sirius and its constellation, Canis Major, reappeared.

So, Troy is likely "out there": it marked a time of change, in the night's sky, an observation that was perhaps made by those great astronomers of the megalithic civilisation, who are renowned for incorporating astronomical alignments in their stone circles. But what about the Northern setting of the epic, and the great age of 8900 BC? Sirius' apparition in Northern Europe was later than in Greece. And hence, perhaps the epic of Troy is indeed a battle of the skies, but perhaps those recording these changes did not live in Greece, but in Northern Europe. This would make Homer's Iliad and Odyssey not only the epic tales of a lost age, but of a lost civilisation.

I even did an artwork on Thuban, complete with drawn dragon and digital Universe program, Mt Meru ties in to it as the pillar, which all represents Atlas in the long run.

Interesting piece of text...

If I can retrace it, I will post ancient star charts in Sweden; they were complex petroglyphs and some 4000 years old.

About Homer and/or the Illaid coming from the north:

http://www.troy-in-e...-once-stood.htm

http://itis.volta.al...me/ep2vinc2.htm

http://www.therealsk...olumn07-06.html

http://www.jstor.org/pss/4429971

http://www.applied-e...fcb4d32fda62df8

But like I already said, I dont know if these theories could be correct because I dont know enough of the ancient myths and legends from Greece. And it will be no surprize for you that these theories have already been shot down by Greek classicisists (or whatever they are called).

Btw, I found that place and starmap in Sweden:

tanumdecipheredbyandiskaulins.png

http://mapsandcartography.blogspot.com/2009/05/cartography-of-heavens-in-neolithic-era.html

Edited by Abramelin
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Wow, checked out that link...how about that? I have read numerous articles pointing out that the Pole Star must have been known and that it made sense for this to have been documented up North. Found the link between Baltic amber being in the hands of the Mycenaeans interesting and the sun being pulled by a chariot. I'd say there was definite interaction, the Nordic Bronze Age http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Bronze_Age is worth reading and sort of implies the North got their ideas from the south...

Hard to know what to think but possibly the story is ages old, maybe a story that rekates star movements as a kind of record, from the North and placed into the setting at Troy or at least near the Hellespont by Homer as a war. Plato tells us this is how it works, real cataclysms and celestial events mentioning the change of precession especially, told as myths, stories like Helios and Phaeton...

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  • 4 months later...

I was reading about a direct genetic link between Berbers (Berber people - Wiki)and a Scandinavian people and thought of your post Abramelin. I find that chart really interesting. Was thinking the early Berbers possessed this 'dawn of astronomy' knowledge from Europe hence these sorts of finds:

Since Neolithic times, the climate of North Africa has gotten dryer. A reminder of the desertification of the area is provided by megalithic remains, which occur in great variety of form and in vast numbers in presently arid and uninhabitable wastelands: dolmens and circles like Stonehenge, cairns, underground cells excavated in rock, barrows topped with huge slabs, and step-pyramidlike mounds. Most remarkable are the trilithons, some still standing, some fallen, which occur isolated or in rows, and consist of two squared uprights standing on a common pedestal that supports a huge transverse beam. In the Terrgurt valley, Cowper says, "There had been originally no less than eighteen or twenty megalithic trilithons, in a line, each with its massive altar placed before it."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Libya

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I also wanted to mention about the Black Mummy found in Libya indicating a knowledge of mummification 1000 years prior to Egyptians. The info can be found in my new topic about it.

Here - http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=178185

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Good heavens, we've gone through the entirety of planet Earth as Atlantis and now we're back to just the Sahara? I was honestly expecting you to have more ambition that merely re-cycling used ideas after you located Atlantis on every single point on Earth, Puzz.

I mean, since you already fudge every other fact that's inconvenient to your theory du jour, can't you just fudge a planet around Gamma Ophiuchus into being "teh realz, srsly" Atlantis?

--Jaylemurph

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Good heavens, we've gone through the entirety of planet Earth as Atlantis and now we're back to just the Sahara? I was honestly expecting you to have more ambition that merely re-cycling used ideas after you located Atlantis on every single point on Earth, Puzz.

I mean, since you already fudge every other fact that's inconvenient to your theory du jour, can't you just fudge a planet around Gamma Ophiuchus into being "teh realz, srsly" Atlantis?

--Jaylemurph

J, I don't actually have a theory anymore.....(I did on assorted places) that's why I have found it in so many places, I'm easy...wherever it may be it may be, I have no set ideas of where it could be or if it even is, I merely 'find' it and then as I do further researches cross it off but yeah, I admit the Sahara I can't quite cross off because it just seems so logical if looking for an actual place as such. I know I'm pathetic in your eyes for searching relentlessly and saying it's here and there and everywhere and then saying no it's not but that's just me, I take one day at a time.

Planet? Nah, Pole Star maybe... ;)

Edited by The Puzzler
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  • 8 years later...

...

Edited by Dragnfli
Oops, wrong thread. Sorry. Hello everyone
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Holy Mackerel, Plato was telling a story and using Atlantis as a symbol to further his views on human nature and philosophy. Why would you think the Greeks did not deal in analogy and fiction in their dialog as they did in their drama?  They are a subtle people.

In another thousand years are people going to be claiming they found evidence of the Shire or Mordor  in Australia or Antarctica or on Mars because Tolkien's story is so complete and full of detail it must be based on fact?

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7 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Holy Mackerel, Plato was telling a story and using Atlantis as a symbol to further his views on human nature and philosophy. Why would you think the Greeks did not deal in analogy and fiction in their dialog as they did in their drama?  They are a subtle people.

In another thousand years are people going to be claiming they found evidence of the Shire or Mordor  in Australia or Antarctica or on Mars because Tolkien's story is so complete and full of detail it must be based on fact?

Dude, Jackson's Hobbiton is still there.

Those future people will have greater reason to believe in Tolkien's tale than we do to believe in Atlantis.

Harte

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29 minutes ago, Harte said:

Dude, Jackson's Hobbiton is still there.

Holy ****! You know where The Shire is located? :o

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14 hours ago, Piney said:

Holy ****! You know where The Shire is located? :o

Sure.

Wanna tour?

Harte

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