ATLANTIS FOUND (By Me) In The SAHARA

[The Puzzler]

QUOTE (Геро

@ Apr 30 2008, 12:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Haha is that because there's something there, or you just want to get rid of me

It would be a few years yet before i would be able to i can only dream at the moment..

lol, because I know you want to go and dig something up. Just telling you where to look.

http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/crete.html

While the majority of the original Neolithic inhabitants of Crete probably came from Anatolia, another element may well have come in oared boats from the opposite African coast, bringing with them to the southern plan of Messara the seeds of civilization that, transplanted to the different conditions of Crete, developed into the great Minoan culture, a younger more brilliant, and less long-lived sister of that of Egypt."

There's plenty of sites on Google that have articles on this connection. Seems as this one above says that DNA is looking towards Anatolia for ancestry but another element would have been possible.

[Harte]

WAAS,

You're stretched so thin on this that I can't really recognize anything about it that's not just pure speculation.

But as long as you think that the story of Atlantis itself stems from the destruction of the Cretans via the explosion at Thera, you're good with me.

I don't think the Greeks had any oral traditions concerning anything like Atlantis that they retained from Mycenea though. If they did, what was it? I mean, Homer doesn't say anything like this. Homer is the font of the Greek oral tradition.

Harte

[The Gremlin]

Keep in mind my thoughts are these people also became the Minoan civilisation in time which was picked up by the Mycenaean culture which was on the Greek mainland. So the Minoan culture spread into Mycenaean Greece and so did the genes. The Mycenaean civilisation died out by 1100BC. Not before being intergrated into the new Greek invaders, the modern Greeks, the Dorians. All these people would interbreed in contact with each other and so could be seen as being seeded by them. Just as some Egyptian ancestors came over from the West once it started drying out around 2500BC. Seems the story could be related in this way; the wrath of God, bought on by floods and earthquakes judged these people, the Mycenaeans and deemed them too indulgent of gold and the like, so Athens people reigned supreme since they did not possess these things. "you do not know that there formerly dwelt in your land the fairest and noblest race of men which ever lived, and that you and your whole city are descended from a small seed or remnant of them which survived. " this is the Dorians.

tp://score.rims.k12.ca.us/activity/mhtycenaean_Trace/pages/Mycenaeans.html

"Some time later their downfall was complete when the Dorians, a people from the northern part of Greece, captured and ruled the area.

The Dorians did not have the skills or the abilities of the Mycenaeans. They were farmers rather than traders and were not able to keep written records.

The written language disappeared and so no records of the time survived. The time of Dorian rule is known as the Dark Age."

Plato's story when describing the palaces etc was actually describing the Cretan civilisation, which as you told me, the Egyptians had knowledge of but the Greeks didn't. So Solon wouldn't have known about them and so would have placed Greek pre history with Deucalions flood after 1200BC. Or his knowledge would have expanded to them. The story follows them from their creation in West Africa, out of there, spreading east to Egypt and Nubia and north, through Spain, reaching Crete and ending up in Greece. The Dorians, coming from the north of Greece, a higher land, did not have the writing skills of the people of the trading cities, and like Plato says, lost the writing and history of the earlier culture, being lost forever in writing, only kept alive by tales.

"The Greeks kept alive tales of the Mycenaean period by passing down songs and poems. This happened over many centuries. The songs and poems would be repeated and recited at feasts or religious festivals, usually to the accompaniment of a lyre."

So we can see that this tale could have been passed down at the Apaturia as mentioned and is a tale of the riches of Mycenae and the origins of them from West Africa from a place that existed as an island and Egypt, culminating in the Dorians being the dominant Greek people who possessed the wisdom to make Greece the metropolis of thinkers that it had.

But the Athenians including Solon were not dorians, they were ionian...the same 'type' of greek as the Mycenaeans.

These defeated a weakened Minoan culture, which was perhaps the decadent and tyrannical people referred to as Atlantians.

I believe that's what the egyptians were indicating to Solon.

but imo it is the Thera volcano wiping out Crete and the Mycenaeans that is the judgement passed by God.

substitute Mycenaeans for minoans here and we got a deal, The Mycenaeans (former vassals) probably took advantage of the vacuum caused by the disaster and began raiding, even invading a weakened Minoan culture. (see Theseus and the minotaur for a folk memory of this)

Edited April 29, 2008 by lil gremlin

[jaylemurph]

WAAS,

You're stretched so thin on this that I can't really recognize anything about it that's not just pure speculation.

But as long as you think that the story of Atlantis itself stems from the destruction of the Cretans via the explosion at Thera, you're good with me.

I don't think the Greeks had any oral traditions concerning anything like Atlantis that they retained from Mycenea though. If they did, what was it? I mean, Homer doesn't say anything like this. Homer is the font of the Greek oral tradition.

Harte

Well, Homer is sort of the intertia behind which Greek (oral) poetry started rolling.

There are mentions of poets before Homer -- indeed, Homer mentions several himself. And there is a decent historical consensus that Homer never actually existed as a literal individual, and his oeuvre is the collected best bits of several other poets*. But Homer gets credit for being the /best/.

--Jaylemurph

*I'd recommend Albert Lord's The Singer of Tales for the discussion of problems surrounding determining "authorship" of Epic poetry.

[Harte]

Well, Homer is sort of the intertia behind which Greek (oral) poetry started rolling.

There are mentions of poets before Homer -- indeed, Homer mentions several himself. And there is a decent historical consensus that Homer never actually existed as a literal individual, and his oeuvre is the collected best bits of several other poets*. But Homer gets credit for being the /best/.

--Jaylemurph

*I'd recommend Albert Lord's The Singer of Tales for the discussion of problems surrounding determining "authorship" of Epic poetry.

JM,

Believe it or not, I already knew of the idea of Homer's non-existence, but didn't see the point in bringing it up.

If Homer didn't exist, then he is even more the font of the oral tradition, I'd say.

Many folks don't know Homer may not have existed. No need to muddy these waters anymore than they already are.

After all, if there had been an oral tradition from the Myceneans of a place like Atlantis, Homer'd have told us about it either way.

Harte

[trickyhomunculi]

I always figured it'll be by the carribean in the atlantic. far away from africa.

[The Gremlin]

Sorry to butt in again here guys, but i dont think that 'if its not in homer it didnt happen', its likely there was a whole wealth of oral tradition that didnt have anything to do with homer, or the subject matter of the iliad and odyssey.

the oral tradition existed before homer, im sure you both know that.

[PersonFromPorlock]

My theory is that it'll be found in New Jersey, on the grounds that it already hasn't been found everywhere else.

[The Puzzler]

But the Athenians including Solon were not dorians, they were ionian...the same 'type' of greek as the Mycenaeans.

These defeated a weakened Minoan culture, which was perhaps the decadent and tyrannical people referred to as Atlantians.

I believe that's what the egyptians were indicating to Solon.

substitute Mycenaeans for minoans here and we got a deal, The Mycenaeans (former vassals) probably took advantage of the vacuum caused by the disaster and began raiding, even invading a weakened Minoan culture. (see Theseus and the minotaur for a folk memory of this)

Yep, yep, needs some tweaking here and there. I see about the Ionians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionians

"Ionian" with reference to populations had two senses in Classical Greece. In a narrow sense they were linked by their use of the Ionic dialect spoken in settlements that were located principally on some of the Islands between Greece and Anatolia, but who resided on the coast of Anatolia as well, giving rise to the eponymously named region of Ionia there. All the Greeks understood that the population of Ionia were descendants of migrants from the Peloponnesus and had ceded their native land to the Dorians. After a residence in Athens they and some Athenians emigrated to Anatolia and the islands. In a broader sense Ionian meant all the speakers of Ionian, Attic (the language spoken at Athens) and any other dialects of the group called East Greek today.

migrants from the Peloponnesus to Ionia were the Mycenaeans.

Yes, now I know that, it seems the Athenians were Ionians from Mycenaean descent after the Dorians took their lands. The Minoans as you say, would have been the Atlanteans.

[The Puzzler]

WAAS,

You're stretched so thin on this that I can't really recognize anything about it that's not just pure speculation.

But as long as you think that the story of Atlantis itself stems from the destruction of the Cretans via the explosion at Thera, you're good with me.

I don't think the Greeks had any oral traditions concerning anything like Atlantis that they retained from Mycenea though. If they did, what was it? I mean, Homer doesn't say anything like this. Homer is the font of the Greek oral tradition.

Harte

Sure, I can see it is alot of speculation but none of it comes out of the air. It can be all fitted together and evidences in some way, shape or form are there. Not evidences like you expect me to pull out of my hat but there nonetheless.

Here's a great old work offering some scientfic and geological credence to the idea of an inland sea. It's old alright, from 1870, a scientific run down on the day. It's in the early stages of human anthropology, which you can read from this link too. Sure some of it may be outdated but it's a very good read anyway.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=QNO97t...hl=en#PPA279,M1

[Harte]

Sorry to butt in again here guys, but i dont think that 'if its not in homer it didnt happen', its likely there was a whole wealth of oral tradition that didnt have anything to do with homer, or the subject matter of the iliad and odyssey.

the oral tradition existed before homer, im sure you both know that.

Sure, except that's not what WAAS said:

"The Greeks kept alive tales of the Mycenaean period by passing down songs and poems. This happened over many centuries. The songs and poems would be repeated and recited at feasts or religious festivals, usually to the accompaniment of a lyre."

So we can see that this tale could have been passed down at the Apaturia as mentioned and is a tale of the riches of Mycenae and the origins of them from West Africa from a place that existed as an island and Egypt, culminating in the Dorians being the dominant Greek people who possessed the wisdom to make Greece the metropolis of thinkers that it had.

I'm saying that no such tale was passed down from the Myceneans, if it were, it would have been through Homer.

That's not the same as saying the tale didn't exist. It's me saying the tale didn't exist in Plato's (or Herodotus') time. If it had, we would have had wind of it.

Harte

Edited April 30, 2008 by Harte

[The Puzzler]

Sure, except that's not what WAAS said:

I'm saying that no such tale was passed down from the Myceneans, if it were, it would have been through Homer.

That's not the same as saying the tale didn't exist. It's me saying the tale didn't exist in Plato's (or Herodotus') time., If it had, we would have had wind of it.

Harte

BTW here is some info regarding the NASA pics that CS spoke of:

The buried river channel was revealed in images taken by the Spaceborne Imaging Radar, known as SIR-C/X-SAR that flew twice on the Space Shuttle Endeavour in 1994. The radar images were processed at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), Pasadena, CA, and the University of Texas at Dallas (UTD). (It's late and I forgot to get the website but that's the photos, you might be able to track them down.)

I think I'll keep away from Homer..........

[Harte]

Thanks, WAAS.

Looks like, so far anyway, the photos don't seem to support anything you've claimed:

"Drainage" shot under the sands of Libya

From JPL

Might be a piece of the same photo.

From AGU.org

Looks like a shot of a different portion

From the abstract of SUBSURFACE MORPHOLOGY AND GEOARCHAEOLOGY REVEALED BY SPACEBORNE AND AIRBORNE RADAR

Story about how this imaging tech might explain why the nile has that big southerly bend then goes back north.

More digging might show more of what you're imagining might be there.

Harte

Edited April 30, 2008 by Harte

[The Gremlin]

Sure, except that's not what WAAS said:

I'm saying that no such tale was passed down from the Myceneans, if it were, it would have been through Homer.

That's not the same as saying the tale didn't exist. It's me saying the tale didn't exist in Plato's (or Herodotus') time., If it had, we would have had wind of it.

Harte

ah i see, fair point.

but they did tell the tale of Theseus, which may be a folk memory of campaigns in Crete after the disaster. (just speculation)

But i agree that a definitive tale of Atlantis / minoan civilisation going under (as plato describes) was probably lost to the greeks in that format, hence the Egyptians 'reminding' him.

(thats if there is any truth to the solonic part of the story)

maybe the 2 stories are linked.

[The Puzzler]

Thanks, WAAS.

Looks like, so far anyway, the photos don't seem to support anything you've claimed:

"Drainage" shot under the sands of Libya

From JPL

Might be a piece of the same photo.

From AGU.org

Looks like a shot of a different portion

From the abstract of SUBSURFACE MORPHOLOGY AND GEOARCHAEOLOGY REVEALED BY SPACEBORNE AND AIRBORNE RADAR

Story about how this imaging tech might explain why the nile has that big southerly bend then goes back north.

More digging might show more of what you're imagining might be there.

Harte

Well there you go. But the direction of the Nile is unimportant to me and was never part of my claim. I am concentrating on West Africa and the 2 main ergs there that would have created a channel. I only included that info because you were interested in the Nasa shots.

Anyway the old map was explained as being the Niger River adjoining the Nile, even in Roman times they thought it joined.

Wiki - Niger River:

Ancient Romans thought that the river near Timbuktu was part of the Nile River (e.g., Pliny, N.H. 5.10), a belief also held by Ibn Battuta, while early 17th-century European explorers thought that it flowed west and joined the Senegal River. The true course was probably known to many locals, but Westerners only established it in the late 19th century, firstly mentioned in the book Travels in the Interior of Africa by the Scottish explorer Mungo Park. This strange geography apparently came about because the Niger River is two ancient rivers joined together. The upper Niger, from the source past the trading city of Timbuktu to the bend in the current river, once emptied into a now-gone lake, while the lower Niger started in hills near that lake and flowed south into the Gulf of Guinea. As the Sahara dried up in 4000-1000 BC, the two rivers altered their courses and hooked up.

Edited May 2, 2008 by weareallsuckers

[The Puzzler]

Let's explode the myth that Atlantis was outside the Pillars of Heracles.

See: Wiki - Draa River:

The first reference to the Draa River in historical times comes from Hanno a king of Carthage (living around 550 B.C.) who set out for a mission to establish a colony on the west coast of Africa. The Punic text of the record of this journey (known as the Periplus) was engraved in the Temple of Chronos (Baal Hammon) at Carthage. There is only one Greek version, dating perhaps to the third century B.C.. These are the opening words of the Periplus:

“The Voyage of Hanno, King of the Carthaginians, to the Libyan regions of the earth, beyond the Pillars of Heracles...”

Here is a direct reference seperate from Plato that identifies an area beyond the Pillars of Heracles as STILL in the African continent. A central point to my whole theory. This is from Plato's time also.

Edited May 2, 2008 by weareallsuckers

[Ghost Ship]

If Atlantis did once exist then the Island was occupied by people intelligent enough to vanish without a trace. Atlantians , if they might have existed, should not be underestimated, one day that island might be found because of advanced enough technology and/or minds.

[Unknown Rebel]

Hanno's expedition was along the western coast of Africa (not IN Africa) from which he brought back a Gorilla and had it skinned, out of fear of this terifying 'Race of Men' he never returned, are there other areas beside Gibraltor stated as the Pillars of Hercules ? i dont think there are

[The Puzzler]

QUOTE (Геро

@ May 3 2008, 01:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hanno's expedition was along the western coast of Africa (not IN Africa) from which he brought back a Gorilla and had it skinned, out of fear of this terifying 'Race of Men' he never returned, are there other areas beside Gibraltor stated as the Pillars of Hercules ? i dont think there are

It doesn't change the fact he refers to part of the African continent (west africa) as BEYOND THE PILLARS. I have heard 2 other places on the eastern med. referred to as Pillars but couldn't rememeber now where they were.

my theory is that beyond the Pillars is referring to a part of the western sahara desert, this is evidenced here in the same time frame as Plato lived as being correct.

[bee]

Here is a direct reference seperate from Plato that identifies an area beyond the Pillars of Heracles as STILL in the African continent. A central point to my whole theory. This is from Plato's time also.

QUOTE (Геро

@ May 2 2008, 04:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hanno's expedition was along the western coast of Africa (not IN Africa) from which he brought back a Gorilla and had it skinned, out of fear of this terifying 'Race of Men' he never returned, are there other areas beside Gibraltor stated as the Pillars of Hercules ? i dont think there are

IF the pillars of Heracles was located at the Strait of Gibralter....this would still fit in with the area sited

by WAAS to be 'Plato's' Atlantis....ie...the amazing circular structure, just off the North Western coast of

Africa.

Anyone describing the way to get to it from Athens would almost certainly describe a sea route....and this

would be 'beyond the Pillars of Heracles' (then follow the land round going in a Southern direction)

[The Puzzler]

IF the pillars of Heracles was located at the Strait of Gibralter....this would still fit in with the area sited

by WAAS to be 'Plato's' Atlantis....ie...the amazing circular structure, just off the North Western coast of

Africa.

Anyone describing the way to get to it from Athens would almost certainly describe a sea route....and this

would be 'beyond the Pillars of Heracles' (then follow the land round going in a Southern direction)

Hello bee! yes. Beyond the Pillars would more than likely be in the area of west Morocco and south along coast as the Hanno description continues describing going south. The structure is near the corner border of western sahara and Mauritania. It would be in an area described as such.

Edited May 2, 2008 by weareallsuckers

[keithisco]

Hello bee! yes. Beyond the Pillars would more than likely be in the area of west Morocco and south along coast as the Hanno description continues describing going south. The structure is near the corner border of western sahara and Mauritania. It would be in an area described as such.

Hang in there girl!!!

I have not forgotten this quest, just working in the background.

What I am hoping for is enough data to show the inundation of the area, and to produce a simulation of how the area would have appeared during this time.

I would very much like to approach the BBC Documentary Unit to explore this with their resouces, please email me if this is acceptable.

Keith

[The Puzzler]

Hang in there girl!!!

I have not forgotten this quest, just working in the background.

What I am hoping for is enough data to show the inundation of the area, and to produce a simulation of how the area would have appeared during this time.

I would very much like to approach the BBC Documentary Unit to explore this with their resouces, please email me if this is acceptable.

Keith

No worries, I will! I have been doing alot of research into all this and stand by my claim that this is geographically the area Plato speaks of in an area under a shallow sea at the time of 10,000 - 4,000 years ago. I believe the rainfall inundation that would have occured during the 9000BC Earth axis tilt which would have affected seasons and the monsoon cycle in the sahara would have been enough to fill low depressions combined with higher sea levels. There is evidence in Troy that the coastline was many kilometres inland.

The shallow channel would have gone from Gabes through Chott Melrhir, Sebkra Mekerrhane, Hamada El Haricha and then the Hodh area and out to the sea. this would have encompassed the Atlas mountains.

" nearly in the words of Solon, and now I must endeavour to represent the nature and arrangement of the rest of the land. The whole country was said by him to be very lofty and precipitous on the side of the sea, but the country immediately about and surrounding the city was a level plain, itself surrounded by mountains which descended towards the sea; it was smooth and even, and of an oblong shape, extending in one direction three thousand stadia, but across the centre inland it was two thousand stadia. This part of the island looked towards the south, and was sheltered from the north. The surrounding mountains were celebrated for their number and size and beauty, far beyond any which still exist, having in them also many wealthy villages of country folk, and rivers, and lakes, and meadows supplying food enough for every animal, wild or tame, and much wood of various sorts, abundant for each and every kind of work.

The area of Richat would be at the head of the channel out to the sea, just as in Plato's descriptions. I showed a link that suggested it had been shaped by electrical forces that appeared to machine it out, just as Plato's description told us. The channel structure fits, the height mentioned by Plato as the depth of the channel was 100 feet, which is the same height as the rock still exposed in the Richat Structure. It sits on a plateau, which when down on the plain below would appear as a low hill. The Richat Structure has undergone alot of erosion too.

The area left as an island if the area I mentioned became a channel would be large enough to fulfill Plato's size of as large as Libya and Asia. It would seem a huge island in any case. Whether the exact dimensions Plato gives can be accountable is questionable. The original inhabitants of this area would have been Evenors ancestors. This is where Atlas and his family are born and rule. Over generations they start trading and move into other areas, but geographically the above outlines my thoughts there.

Thanks for your time keith. )

[The Gremlin]

here's some info for your consideration WAAS, it may suggest that Plato had another 'event' in mind than the Thera incident....

The Ogygian flood is so called because it occurred in the time of Ogyges,[13] a mythical king of Attica. Ogyges is somewhat synonymous to "primeval", "primal", "earliest dawn". Others say he was founder and king of Thebes. In many traditions the Ogygian flood is said to have covered the whole world and was so devastating that Attica remained without kings until the reign of Cecrops.[14]

Plato in his Laws, Book III, estimates that this flood occurred 10,000 years before his time. Also in Timaeus (22) and in Critias (111-112) he describes the "great deluge of all" happening 9,000 years before the time of Solon, during the 10th millennium BC. In addition, the texts report that "many great deluges have taken place during the nine thousand years" since Athens and Atlantis were preeminent.[15]

The theory of the flood in the Aegean Basin, proposed that a great flood occurred at the end of the Late Pleistocene or beginning of the Holocene. The Holocene is a geological period that began approximately 11,550 calendar years BP (or about 9600 BC) and continues to the present. This flood would coincide with the end of the last ice age, estimated approximately 10,000 years ago, when the sea level rose as much as 130 metres, particularly during Meltwater pulse 1A when sea level rose by about 25 metres in some parts of the northern hemisphere over a period of less than 500 years.[16]

The map on the right shows how the region would look about 12,000 years ago, or 10,000 BC, when the sea level would have been 100 meters lower than today. The Peloponnese was connected to the mainland and the Corinthian Gulf was not formed. Islands around Attica, such as Aegina, Salamis and Euboea, were part of the mainland. The Cyclades formed a big island known as Aegeis, while Bosporous and Hellespont was not formed yet.

These geological findings support the hypothesis that the Ogygian Deluge may well be based on a real event.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(mythology)

Its only Wiki im afraid, but something to throw into the mix. It may or may not have some baring on your Richart Structure theory.

[Qoais]

Once upon a time, I considered the Richat Structure as Atlantis. (and then after following the trail it became Malta for a while!) Back then, I was having a lot of fun putting together all the information I'd come across, to make sense of the theories that were out there and correlate everything to what Plato said. I even cut up a map and made the Med. look different, so the Richat Structure could be situated in the right place and what is now the Med., was actually the "large plain". Just for your entertainment, I thought I'd share my ingeniousness

Where to start?

Let's start with the time line - which I know nothing about! Diodorus Sicilus says he was copying older works when he wrote his books. In his works, he talks about the Amazons and how they attacked their neighbors, the Atlantians. I'm going to make the next line in caps because I think it's important. WHEN THE AMAZONS ATTACKED THE ATLANTIANS, IT WAS WAAAY BACK WHEN THE ATLANTIANS WERE STILL A PEACEFUL SPIRITUAL PEOPLE. So far back, that perhaps, whoever Diodorus is copying - in THEIR day, the edge of the Western world was today's Tunisia, and the western end of the Med. was considered part of the Oceanous.

Let's go to Plato - and HIS times. In his times, the western world has now stretched to the ends of the continents and he knows Spain is Spain etc. Plato says Atlantis is larger than Libya and Asia. Well, if you consider that the whole Western side of Africa was Atlantis, then yeah - it would be bigger. In my copy of Plato, it says that Eumelous' portion "faced" what was in Plato's time Gades.

That would be the "extremity" of Atlantis of course, since Atlantis was at the end of the Western world. The western extremity of the western extremity, was Morocco.

I don't know where all these other people came from, like the Amazons and the Gorgons, etc. but Siculus says that the Amazons fought the Gorgons on one of the borders of Atlantis, on behalf of the Atlanteans. IF and it's a big IF, the Amazons originated where we now call LAKE TRITONIS, then they fought their neighbors on the west (the Atlanteans), and then they continued on in their conquests, across Libya, made friends with the Egyptians, fought the Arabs, and swung around to Turkey and the Greek islands, building cities wherever they went.

Then along comes Hercules, and takes on their main base at Cherronesus, wipes it out, and puts up some pillars to comemmorate his exploits. Cherronesus ends up sunken in the water, (as do the pillars). Somewhere in here, the Atlanteans are turning to their dark side, and they take control of Libya to the borders of Egypt, and also Italy. Not hard to do if they have THEIR main city on a then NESOS (nose) with their temple hill being in the vicinity of Malta. Which was a man-made island- cut thru with canals, so they could egress out either side. The western end of the Med would be considered part of the ocean, since it was open, but the eastern end was a harbour. They COULD sail the ocean - if they could get to it, which it seems, they used to do, before Atlantis sunk causing a mud blockage.

Edited May 7, 2008 by Qoais