Disproving the flood using math

[UtahRaptor]

What you are about to see here is the 100% disproval of Noah's Flood, Noah's Ark, and in general Creationism as a whole in one shot.

Why would I do this? No it is NOT to bash you people or any the religion. Personally I think the core of Christianity and Catholicism is just fine. It uses stories and teaches some REALLY good moral values and ways of life. In other places it does however encourage out right murder for no reason. Just read the first quarter of King James and do not skip a single sentence. It is definitely there. Times back then were different than they are now. Thus the reason why entire sections of The Bible are no longer even read. Also thus the reason out right murder was fine back in those days. Remember we are talking about over 2000 years into the past. Times change......

This is really geared to the people who take The Bible too literally and completely accept it and all of it's contents as FACT. All I want to do is to make you think for yourself and see absolutely unquestionable math based 100% fact. No myth, no lore, no imagination, just straight up, in your face, 100% math based fact. I have done my research on, mass, water displacement, equal mass displacement, buoyancy, ship building, water cycle, cosmology, buoyancy in differential gravitational fields, animal's weights, and a whole lot of paleontology and zoology.

Now onto the subject at hand:

Flood:

It is said that the entire planet is submerged by water. The highest peaks are 6 meters under, as taken from Genesis chapters 6-9. Well if you were to liquefy all ice on the planet, the water levels would only rise 20-50 feet globally. Mount Ararat is 16,854 feet high, while the tallest mountain, Mt. Everest is 29,028 feet high. 16,854 feet does not equal 20-50 feet, nor does 29,028 feet. 20-50 feet equals 20-50 feet, no more, no less. This posses two immediate questions! Where did all of that water come from? Where did all of that water go? Well everyone who has made it past 2nd grade can tell you the flood never happened. Why? The water cycle. This planet has had the same exact amount of water on it since it's beginning. It is in an unending cycle of evaporation, condensation, and precipitation. Water changes form, but never amount. Of coarse there is a differential of about maybe 1,000,000 gallons or so due to comet bombardment and volcanic activity. Comets are mainly ice, which is solidified water.

There, the flood never really happened.

Now lets just assume that the flood DID indeed happen, Noah is real, and he is not a story stolen from the ancient Babylonians. There, the flood is real, Noah (not Gilgamesh) is real, and finally the ark itself is real.

The Ark:

I read a bit of the Boatbuilder's Handbook from uscgboating.org. This is the US Coast Guard here. I read there that a boat 18'6" long has the capacity to carry 2513 pounds. This is the deck, propulsion system, sails, passengers...... well everything. The longest figures that I have seen of Noah's Ark is 515ft long. I did some calculations. The largest Noah's Ark can carry 69,954 pounds. The average weight of an African Savanna Elephant is 7.7 tons. This is the largest land animal alive today. Noah's Ark could carry only 4 and a half of them and no more. Genesis chapters 6-9 says Noah needs 1-7 pairs of each animal on the planet. Again Noah's Ark could only hold 4 and a half Savanna Elephants. This is not even including the three decks, the people, food and water for 40 days and nights of the actual flood, the 150 days of water receding, and the 40 or 50 days after the water receded. This is the total actual time spent on the Ark. 7 months and 17 days.

How bid does the ARk actually need to be to hold 1-7 pairs of every animal on the planet. Not only animals but seeds of every plant, food, water, and anything else necessary for all people and animals.

Admittedly this is where I start guessing:

OK with plant seeds and insects alone of all of these alive TODAY and TODAY alone would be perhaps in the low estimate neighborhood of 500 tons. That's is seeds and a few pairs of insects of each specie alive TODAY. Now lets take into consideration the extinction rate from 4300 years ago until now and boost that, at the very least, to 700 tons. (this boat is already stupid huge and we didn't even put a single mouse on it yet nor have we put on storage for these things let alone food and water for 7 and a half months)

I'm gonna take a quick break and name a few animals:

Elephant, Lion, Grizzly Bear, Anaconda, Tiger, Wolverine, Polar Bear.......

Do you think primitive humans could contain such beasts? No freaking way!

Let me remind all of you that a Polar Bear can pick up a 2 ton White Whale and throw it using one, single, arm. Yes! they are THAT strong! You think a human can contain that magnitude of strength with primitive technology?? Guess again!

OK! Now for the animals, and I'll take a nice short cut and include all of the animals including the extinction rate of 4300 years to now. This is one pair of each animal: avian, terrestrial, and subterranean..... my extreme guess and best estimate would be 500 billion tons? The ship has got to be the size of the USA by now if not possibly all of Asia! This doesn't even include the three decks, food, water, people, and containment for 7 months and 17 days

Ready for more??? We just started!! We are so not even close to being done yet!! I can do this aaaaalllllllll day!

ALL DAY!

The Christian and Catholics have accepted that dinosaurs exist. Not only that, but they were on the Ark since we all lived at the same time. So, how about all the animals from the time AFTER the dinosaurs but before us? Lets give it a shot!!!

Animals of the Cenozoic Era come on down!!!!:

Woolly Mammoth, Woolly Rhino, Sabre Toothed Cats!!! Yes!!!! Megistotherium, Andrewsarchus (pretty much 6 ton giant dogs) Chalicotherium, Entelodont, Leptictidium, Australopithecus, Castoroides Ohioensis, Gigantopithichus, Ambulocetus, and the Indricotherium. The Indricoltherium is a 20 ft tall, 30 ft long, 20 ton mammal. The largest land mammal ever found. It dwarfs the mammoth in every respect!! The Bullokornis!! This is a 1,100 pound bird and is also known as The Demon Duck Of Doom!!!!!! Terror birds, Gastornis! Yup them too! I'm pretty sure there is a 1 ton bird as well, but I forget it's name..... Also lets not forget the insects and plants. Avian, Terran, and Subterranean of the Cenozoic Era!! Ready???

500 trillion tons!! + 500 billion tons + 700 tons = 500,500,000,000,700 Tons

One pair of each animal, no humans, food, water, decks, nor means of containment yet. This is not even the Ark itself. This is what the Ark must CARRY. I don't even think the planet Earth can contain this boat now! Anyone know the mass of Earth?? I'm not looking that one up yet. And I do stress YET! By the time we are done we might be measuring in solar masses........

Time to load up the dinosaurs!! The Mesozoic Era's turn now!!

Tyrannosaur, Allosaur, Carnisaur, Gigantosaur, Stegosaur, Triceratops, Protoceratops, Plateosaur, Spineosaur, Suchamimus, Gastonia, Ankleosaur, Brachiosaur, Coelophysis, Microraptor, Eoraptor, Velociraptor, Megaraptor, Thilizinosaur, Comptheosaur, Archeopteryx, Ornithechairus, Pteradon, Dinosuchus, Pterodactyl, Ornathilestis!! Yup!!! Load em up!!! Every dinosaur, avian reptile, ancient reptile, ancient amphibian, and primitive mammal!! Every last animal! And lets not forget the insects and seeds!!!! A few quadrillion tons?? Lets just say 100 Quadrillion!!

100,500,500,000,000,700 tons

Nope!! no food, water, people, decks, bla bla bla!! Not yet!!

By the way the mass of Earth is 5.9736 X 10^24kg

Now for the Paleozoic Era! Now I know what your gonna say and your right. Terran animals have only been on land for 315 billion years, so we get a break on this one. But don't for get plants! They have been on land for 475 billion years. Incests are there too. But a little bit less of a time than plants. And no, I'm not going to add in sea scorpions that occasionally made short scouting trips onto land. Nor am I going to add the fish that spawned in fresh water pools and then jumped back into the oceans. I honestly never counted a single fish. I didn't even slip in a guppy under your noses. This one is tough since I have limited study in this time frame. How does 250 trillion tons sound? That one may be an over estimation by 1 or 2 trillion.......

OK!! Grand total!! 100,750,500,000,000,700 tons! now for a few people, 3 decks, reinforcement beams, reinforced containment, food, water, and a few odds and ends. Lets triple that number since large animals can eat their own weight in a few months, and amphibians need a hell of a lot more water than any other animal. Also it's always better to over estimate supplies than run out. Especially for long trips......

Total now is: 302,251,500,000,002,100 tons. Now lets convert this into pounds. (# x 2000)

604,431,000,000,004,200,000 pounds!

And how long is Noah's Ark actually supposed to be? If a 18'6" boat hold 2513 pounds than Noah's Ark is........

604,431,000,000,004,200,000 divided by 2513 = 240,521,687,226,424,273.776'362'912'853'16 X 18'6" =

Noah's actual Ark should have been 4,449,651,213,688,849,064.862'713'887'7835 feet long in order to carry all animals, plants, humans, and insects and keep them alive for 7 months and 17 day.

OH! How forgetful of me!!! This is only ONE pair of each animal. NOT the required 2-7 pairs for some animals!! So this boat is NOT even it's full ACTUAL size!

Earth's Equatorial Radius: 6,378.1 km

Earth's Equatorial Circumference: 40,075.02 km

The Sun's Equatorial Radius: 6.955×10^8 m

The Sun's Equatorial Circumference: 4.379×10^9 m = 14,366,797,900,260 feet

This boat for one pair of each animal is 309,717.673 times LONGER than OUR Sun's Equatorial circumference.

1 soalr mass = 4,385,214,857,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 pounds. Nope, we didn't hit 1 solar mass.

Dear God that's a lot of POOP!

Edited May 10, 2008 by UtahRaptor

[annmariet]

wow - I need to read that a few times to get all the math - but very interesting!! And I thought my dogs left me a lot of "presents" in the yard. This helped put that in perspective for me!!! Nice post

[UtahRaptor]

Please let me know if you see some math errors. There is bound to be tons of spelling errors. I royaly suck at spelling and I'm noctural. It's 2:42 pm so it is WAY past my bed time and I'm extremely tired now.

Edited May 9, 2008 by UtahRaptor

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

Please let me know if you see some math errors. There is bound to be tons of spelling errors. I royaly suck at spelling and I'm noctural. It's 2:42 pm so it is WAY past my bed time and I'm extremely tired now.

What every happened about the super dino your "friend" had supposedly found?

[Primeval]

Math huh? I just used common sense! Never was good at math though...

[Tiggs]

Moved to Spirituality vs Skepticism, as the OP is made from a Skeptical, rather than Spiritual, viewpoint.

Tiggs

[Forum Mod Team]

[SQLserver]

The flood is a freaking joke... Even the most die hard Creationists shudder at trying to defend it...

Of course it is impossible. It is botanically, biologically, and meterologically impossible to boot.

-SQLserver

[Rosewin]

The flood is a freaking joke... Even the most die hard Creationists shudder at trying to defend it...

Of course it is impossible. It is botanically, biologically, and meterologically impossible to boot.

-SQLserver

zomg this has to be the very best argument i have ever heard against it. oh noes i guess i cannot believe in god now.

[IamsSon]

Oh wow!! Right here on UM!!! Finally proof that the Flood didn't happen!!!

[bleach]

I have read part of your post, math is not my favorite subject in the least. It seems to me you are subtracting God from the equation. Was this story not in the bible? It is like saying Jesus did not turn water into wine because no one else has ever done it.

[Guyver]

Well that is complete non-sense. Sure, I could spend my time pointing out the myriad of issues - but why? Think of the time it took to think that up, even if it were complete fiction, there would be no changing this persons mind. I believe in the actual, historical creationist view of the flood mind you, not the neoscientific mediterranean only version - and I have no problem with any aspects of the event. With about 75% of our planet covered in water, it's hard to believe someone would actually doubt it, unless they really, really wanted to.

[Cimber]

Well that is complete non-sense. Sure, I could spend my time pointing out the myriad of issues - but why? Think of the time it took to think that up, even if it were complete fiction, there would be no changing this persons mind. I believe in the actual, historical creationist view of the flood mind you, not the neoscientific mediterranean only version - and I have no problem with any aspects of the event. With about 75% of our planet covered in water, it's hard to believe someone would actually doubt it, unless they really, really wanted to.

Becker, B. & Kromer, B., 1993. The continental tree-ring record - absolute chronology, C-14 calibration and climatic-change at 11 KA. Palaeogeography Palaeoclimatology Palaeoecology, 103 (1-2): 67-71.

No evidence of a global flood based on tree ring records.

[fullywired]

Well that is complete non-sense. Sure, I could spend my time pointing out the myriad of issues - but why? Think of the time it took to think that up, even if it were complete fiction, there would be no changing this persons mind. I believe in the actual, historical creationist view of the flood mind you, not the neoscientific mediterranean only version - and I have no problem with any aspects of the event. With about 75% of our planet covered in water, it's hard to believe someone would actually doubt it, unless they really, really wanted to.

It is equally hard to believe that someone would actually believe in the flood ,unless they really wanted to

fullywired

[grither]

Raptor great post! The flood couldn't have happened. Loved the way you made your point with math, something I suck at. By the way I like your avatar.

[Stellar]

Ooops! You forgot a step there Raptor! Let me fix it:

604,431,000,000,004,200,000 divided by 2513 = 240,521,687,226,424,273.776'362'912'853'16 X 18'6" + HOCUS POCUS =

Noah's actual Ark should have been 444.965 feet long in order to carry all animals, plants, humans, and insects and keep them alive for 7 months and 17 day.

Edited May 9, 2008 by Stellar

[--Mandalore--]

Here's a hypothetical situation for you, since you don't believe it happened. Let's assume Noah had some common sense, he wouldn't take fully grown animals, he probably brought babies or 'toddlers(for the lack of a better word), for the simple fact that they are smaller, eat less and sleep more than adults do. Now factor that into your calculations. Also factor in the canopy theory(I know most disagree with it but this is a hypothetical situation anyways), which if it were true, would've made the plants, animals, peolpe, etc. bigger than modern plants, animals, people, etc., which in turn would've made bigger trees, thus making a bigger ark. Since the people would be bigger, the cubit's would be bigger(maybe something like 18 in.). Now try and figure the amount of water/ice in this canopy and factor in what the Bible says about the fountains of the deep, possibly underground springs or something, which would probably give you the amount of water needed for a complete covering of the earth. Also, factor in God, which is an important factor.

If anything is wrong let me know, preferably without saying something along the lines of 'LOL that's so wrong cause this....', so please do it in an orderly manner. Thanks!

Tarheelsfan

Edited May 10, 2008 by tarheelsfan23

[Leonardo]

Here's a hypothetical situation for you, since you don't believe it happened. Let's assume Noah had some common sense, he wouldn't take fully grown animals, he probably brought babies or 'toddlers(for the lack of a better word), for the simple fact that they are smaller, eat less and sleep more than adults do. Now factor that into your calculations. Also factor in the canopy theory(I know most disagree with it but this is a hypothetical situation anyways), which if it were true, would've made the plants, animals, peolpe, etc. bigger than modern plants, animals, people, etc., which in turn would've made bigger trees, thus making a bigger ark. Since the people would be bigger, the cubit's would be bigger(maybe something like 18 in.). Now try and figure the amount of water/ice in this canopy and factor in what the Bible says about the fountains of the deep, possibly underground springs or something, which would probably give you the amount of water needed for a complete covering of the earth. Also, factor in God, which is an important factor.

If anything is wrong let me know, preferably without saying something along the lines of 'LOL that's so wrong cause this....', so please do it in an orderly manner. Thanks!

Tarheelsfan

I can't find the post, but some time ago I argued against the canopy theory by using a website showing how the thermal transfer of energy of the precipitation required to generate such a flood would have heated our atmosphere to approx 6400^o C. Noah, his family, boat and all the animals would have been carbonised. I'll try to find the ste I found before and link it again.

Also, the amount of water involved is approx 3x the amount of water currently in all the seas and oceans on the planet. Can that amount of water actually be present - even underground?

If you wish to factor in God, one would have to ask why He went to the effort of actually making a flood? Why not just blink everything except Noah etc away?

[UtahRaptor]

Stellar!

LMAO!!! Hocus Pocus!!!!! LMAO!!!

You so rock!!

[UtahRaptor]

I can't find the post, but some time ago I argued against the canopy theory by using a website showing how the thermal transfer of energy of the precipitation required to generate such a flood would have heated our atmosphere to approx 6400^o C. Noah, his family, boat and all the animals would have been carbonised. I'll try to find the ste I found before and link it again.

Also, the amount of water involved is approx 3x the amount of water currently in all the seas and oceans on the planet. Can that amount of water actually be present - even underground?

If you wish to factor in God, one would have to ask why He went to the effort of actually making a flood? Why not just blink everything except Noah etc away?

Loenardo, Thank you, I was going to write that and now I don't have to.

Also this is not to mention the sheer amount of volcanic activity required to generate the components for water that would have to be superheated to 6400*C

Edited May 10, 2008 by UtahRaptor

[bball]

Sorry peoples but there was no global flood. But this shouldn't have any bearing on one's faith.

Can someone explain to me how in world animals would have gotten to Australia and the Galapogos islands if there was a global flood.

[UtahRaptor]

Here's a hypothetical situation for you, since you don't believe it happened. Let's assume Noah had some common sense, he wouldn't take fully grown animals, he probably brought babies or 'toddlers(for the lack of a better word), for the simple fact that they are smaller, eat less and sleep more than adults do. Now factor that into your calculations. Also factor in the canopy theory(I know most disagree with it but this is a hypothetical situation anyways), which if it were true, would've made the plants, animals, peolpe, etc. bigger than modern plants, animals, people, etc., which in turn would've made bigger trees, thus making a bigger ark. Since the people would be bigger, the cubit's would be bigger(maybe something like 18 in.). Now try and figure the amount of water/ice in this canopy and factor in what the Bible says about the fountains of the deep, possibly underground springs or something, which would probably give you the amount of water needed for a complete covering of the earth. Also, factor in God, which is an important factor.

If anything is wrong let me know, preferably without saying something along the lines of 'LOL that's so wrong cause this....', so please do it in an orderly manner. Thanks!

Tarheelsfan

Toddlers huh? Well thats a fine idea for some animals. But still most of the planet's past species were still well over a ton in toddlerhood and not to mention very leathal in toddlerhood. For example: Indricotherium, Tyranosaur, Bracheosaur, Apotosaur, stegosaur, triceratops, elephant, Utahraptor, megaraptor, velociraptor, Gigantopithechus dinosuchus, bla bla bla the list in unending. Yes true some enclosed aninamls do not weigh a ton at toddlerhood but are extremely leathal at just a few months old. And toddlerhood for dinosaurs can be quite a few years........

Also, when is the last time you tried to get a hatching from a mother croc? How about polar bear, lion, grizzly bear, gigantopithechus, leptictidium, bullokornis, black panther, raven, badger, tasmainian devil, ornithechchirus, dimetrodon, lynx, gastonia, gastornis, castoroides ohioensis babies? Ever try to get them from their parents? I think even the cute little leptictidium could really mess some people up!

Edited May 10, 2008 by UtahRaptor

[UtahRaptor]

Sorry peoples but there was no global flood. But this shouldn't have any bearing on one's faith.

Can someone explain to me how in world animals would have gotten to Australia and the Galapogos islands if there was a global flood.

Quite right bball, but read the first part of my entry. It says my aim here, and I specifically state that I do not wish to bash people nor religion. Sort of a diclaimer I guess.

[Guyver]

Have you calculated cubic measures for the entire earth's atmoshpere? Before the flood the atmosphere contained a "mist" that watered the earth every night. According to the bible it had never rained before the flood. If that canopy collapsed, that might add a few feet to the sea level?

[Lt_Ripley]

I have read part of your post, math is not my favorite subject in the least. It seems to me you are subtracting God from the equation. Was this story not in the bible? It is like saying Jesus did not turn water into wine because no one else has ever done it.

here's the thing --- other people have done it. it's a trick, and not a hard one. plus all you have to do is tell someone a drink is alcholic ( even if it isn't ) and they think it will be.

[bball]

Quite right bball, but read the first part of my entry. It says my aim here, and I specifically state that I do not wish to bash people nor religion. Sort of a diclaimer I guess.

Nor am I. Which is why I mention that just because there wasn't a global flood, that doesn't mean you can't still follow the religion.

At the risk of my conundrum being ignored-

Can someone explain to me how in the world animals would have gotten to Australia and the Galapogos islands if there was a global flood.