Living EVPs?

[Nile_Shaman]

I was watching season 4 of Ghost Hunters the other day and in the first show at Fort Mifflin, they catch a couple EVPs.

One is of the little girl who was ill, and one is of a workman remarking on something down in the solitary cell.

PIs assume that EVPs are of the dead, but the little girl may have said that when she was still alive and sick in that room. Still and all, that is a maybe.

But the workmen, and a comment while construction was going on, that would be a recording of something said by a living person at the time.

This has been something I have pondered a bit. EVPs may not be proof of anything paranormal, but that something was said at some point in time, and somehow we can sometimes replay these due to something we don't understand yet about time, or the fabric of our reality. In theory, if true, we could "hear" everything ever said anywhere if we figured how or under what circumstances it can happen.

What do you think?

Part 1 of 5 of that show can be viewed at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlWOkWLblg4...feature=related

Cool footage and information about the fort is throughout.

NS

[Aanica]

I was watching season 4 of Ghost Hunters the other day and in the first show at Fort Mifflin, they catch a couple EVPs.

One is of the little girl who was ill, and one is of a workman remarking on something down in the solitary cell.

PIs assume that EVPs are of the dead, but the little girl may have said that when she was still alive and sick in that room. Still and all, that is a maybe.

But the workmen, and a comment while construction was going on, that would be a recording of something said by a living person at the time.

This has been something I have pondered a bit. EVPs may not be proof of anything paranormal, but that something was said at some point in time, and somehow we can sometimes replay these due to something we don't understand yet about time, or the fabric of our reality. In theory, if true, we could "hear" everything ever said anywhere if we figured how or under what circumstances it can happen.

What do you think?

Part 1 of 5 of that show can be viewed at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlWOkWLblg4...feature=related

Cool footage and information about the fort is throughout.

NS

You know I think its a real posability that we will develop the understanding to do this ,like a loop of an event sometime can be seen and heard even though the ghost or evp dosent is not aware of being recorded

[Mabon]

Really great thinking Nile Shaman! *waves*

I guess the iquestion is does the voice interact, or not? It seems to me that EVPs seem to be a mixture of both.

Regards,

Mabon.

[Nile_Shaman]

*waves*

((Mabon))

Yes, you and Aanica both touch on what could be said to be the two types of phenomenon we observe: Interactive (or intelligent, as some call it) and non-interactive (or recorded as it has been called).

The class of things which could be said to be recorded may not be paranormal is what I am thinking, but an as yet not understood ....um... thing, I guess, which happens naturally which we are just beginning to stumble on.

Any physics types or brainiacs out there to comment?

LOL, or more armchair thinkers and wonderers like me are welcome to comment on thier speculations

NS

[Guardian Angel of Fire]

I was watching season 4 of Ghost Hunters the other day and in the first show at Fort Mifflin, they catch a couple EVPs.

One is of the little girl who was ill, and one is of a workman remarking on something down in the solitary cell.

PIs assume that EVPs are of the dead, but the little girl may have said that when she was still alive and sick in that room. Still and all, that is a maybe.

But the workmen, and a comment while construction was going on, that would be a recording of something said by a living person at the time.

This has been something I have pondered a bit. EVPs may not be proof of anything paranormal, but that something was said at some point in time, and somehow we can sometimes replay these due to something we don't understand yet about time, or the fabric of our reality. In theory, if true, we could "hear" everything ever said anywhere if we figured how or under what circumstances it can happen.

What do you think?

Part 1 of 5 of that show can be viewed at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlWOkWLblg4...feature=related

Cool footage and information about the fort is throughout.

NS

You know what?!!!!! Thats a really interesting theory you got there, because those ones that are Risidual that happen over and over somethings gotta be causing them to resay that ya know?

[Nile_Shaman]

Same season, episode 6 or 7, the GH guys get a blatant EVP talking back to them which made me want to yell "get a scientist in there!" LOL. It begs the idea of dimensionality, and a different view of "reality" as a result.

The start of it can be seen at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgqTorkslRo...feature=related

They ask something like "where are you?" and the Princess (maybe...) replies "Where are YOU?"

I mean, cripes. The questions it raises, and if it was of a ghost is the least of them to my mind.

NS

[Guardian Angel of Fire]

Same season, episode 6 or 7, the GH guys get a blatant EVP talking back to them which made me want to yell "get a scientist in there!" LOL. It begs the idea of dimensionality, and a different view of "reality" as a result.

The start of it can be seen at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgqTorkslRo...feature=related

They ask something like "where are you?" and the Princess (maybe...) replies "Where are YOU?"

I mean, cripes. The questions it raises, and if it was of a ghost is the least of them to my mind.

NS

yes i know it's quiet interesting, hey NS i have an EVP of mine i have to share with you.

my friend explains him seeing something then we get the response of something saying "Three Seconds"

it kinda cuts off but you can hear it none the less.

Friend_sees_something_moving.wmv

[Mabon]

((Mabon))

Yes, you and Aanica both touch on what could be said to be the two types of phenomenon we observe: Interactive (or intelligent, as some call it) and non-interactive (or recorded as it has been called).

The class of things which could be said to be recorded may not be paranormal is what I am thinking, but an as yet not understood ....um... thing, I guess, which happens naturally which we are just beginning to stumble on.

Any physics types or brainiacs out there to comment?

LOL, or more armchair thinkers and wonderers like me are welcome to comment on thier speculations

NS

(((NS)))!

You know you got me thinking.... (Oh Noes! LOL) An interesting study would be (IMO of course) to set up a long term study. This could be done fairly inexpensively with a tape recorder and lots of tape/disc space. It would be to investigate a place where paranormal activity has occurred and not been explained. Now this would be to check if there is a residual or interactive occurrence. This is one of the reasons I seem to yammer on about taking notes all the time, recording the mood, weather, time of experience yadda yadda. Because to me this plays a part of it. I think the experiment would be to set up a tape over a long period of time and record and take note of the sounds, that way it could be determined if it is residual or interactive. Some things seem to be affected by weather or time of year for the event to occur. So it would be a way to understand at least a little piece of the puzzle.

Although just to throw a monkey wrench into the works.. (and I'm just musing) What if for some odd reason that the entity in question can interact throughout the year but then every year on an anniversary of stressful event goes through the motions of that event? Hmmm..... *goes off to ponder this*

Great though provoking topic!!!

Regards,

Mabon.

[lars123456789]

I hope some people could be interested in reading this and giving some replies onto it, cause i think it might have some relevance for the thing with EVP's from living people and also in all it entirety ghosts, spirits, doppelgangers and so on and so forth. Looking forwards for replys if people have the guts to try and read it through even though getting a lot confused about it (or maybe you are smarter than me, i got confused myself when thinking about it)

"Okay, this topic here actually seems rather interesting to me:)

i've also been wondering about this a little bit and grasped some ideas that i see as plausible (based on a lack of enough knowledge around the subjects, that is why i would hope that someone like badeskov would pop into this topic after i have posted). But when we talk about most of our things in our universe and the way they are build up i remember it as though people allways get into talk about energy as the smallest of them all.

Allright, this part here is where it gets REALLY dirty, and really messed up. But people also say that our universe is build up from more dimensions. Then lets take the theory i have started to see as plausible. We have wormholes, and some people are sure of that these wormholes should be capable of transporting us into another time. By saying another time i mean that it either "fastforwards" or "rewinds" our energycycle (or not our energycycle, man that one was really bull!, what i mean from "energycycle" is that our energy has to come from somewhere, and therefore we would also need a wave from where it all erupts, that wave would then be the controller of it all.) and then releases us in another part of our "energycycle".

when we have so many different energywaves it would only be logical for me that we have means of going both ways in the cycle, making the cycle endless. allright, let's move on now. When travelling through the wormholes it is not us in all actuallity travelling through that wormhole because we would get dematerialized so that the energies wouldn't criss-cross with eachother (which would also be impossible, and which SHOULD also be impossible, because the mixup of the energies would **** the universe up if you ask me), on the other side our past/future-energies would push the other energy-set out into the dimension we just came from so that we still co-exist in every dimension. and now we come to the part where the ghosts come in, because if we have the chance of taking two roads, we also have the chance of taking the wrong way. When you die it wouldn't be dying in the sence we think of, instead it would just be a fastforwarding of our energies, by fastforwarding of our energies to get this part to cooperate with the other part of the theory it would also fastforward our energies from the dimension before and the dimension after.

now lets say that, as an example, i died, my energies were floating now and it knows which direction it should take, but ends in the wrong lane and instead rewinds, that would not make a copy of me but instead keep me in my latter dimension and therefore create a ghost of me. My copy-energy-sets from the other dimension would have done their moves right, but mine didn't work correctly, and therefore my energy-sets will not recognize my own energy-set as an exsisting energy-set and therefore deny the exsistence of "me". But then we have slave-energy-sets as i talked of before, some energy-set that rules the other energy-set, that could as an example be a camera i held in my hend, this energy-set is instructed to capture the things in all it's actuallity and therefore would also recognize my "gone-wrong-energy-set", when i snap a photograph of "me" standing in front of the camera it then would capture my "gone-wrong-energy-set", in doing so i will say i have captured a picture of my doppleganger.

this can also be done with any exsisting energy-set and i can therefore capture energy from the other dimension that had lost it's way. The energy-set will at some given time be instructed to "pass on" to it's right dimension and start a new life a little behind there until it gets into balance with the flow again. therefore my ghost (or any other given ghost) will still be captured in those dimensions.

Ahhhhh.... now my head feels so much lighter after having rambled so much sh** I don't see this as fact, i only see it as plausibility, and that is also why i hope one of the brains inhere pops by and reads it so i can get a hint of if it could be possible or not.

* a small edit for the guys who might think i just went offtopic because i didn't mention aliens at all. when taking the bigger picture of it all and taking the smaller details into the bigger picture the rules apply for EVERY material existing in the universe, every energywave that exist in the universe cooperates with the others to make the bigger picture of what we call the "world" (world seems a wrong word to me since we don't know the true exsistence of a world), this also applies to aliens that might or might not exist, so it is not just offtopic-rambling

ps. I hope you read it even though it might seem long"

- Cited from myself

[Nile_Shaman]

Hi Lars

Thanks for your thoughts, and I agree, I also hope others will mull this over in their minds and post their thoughts about it. I don't see the point of research if one then doesn't consider impact or what it means, and then test that. If we found out more about this phenomenon, and figured how to reproduce it, then it is no longer outside the parameters of science. IF that, then it changes a whole lot about the paranormal and what we're really seeing, hearing and dealing with.

But when we talk about most of our things in our universe and the way they are build up i remember it as though people allways get into talk about energy as the smallest of them all.

well, it is ubiquitous - which is to say, everywhere and throughout.

We have wormholes, and some people are sure of that these wormholes should be capable of transporting us into another time. By saying another time i mean that it either "fastforwards" or "rewinds" our energycycle (or not our energycycle, man that one was really bull!, what i mean from "energycycle" is that our energy has to come from somewhere, and therefore we would also need a wave from where it all erupts, that wave would then be the controller of it all.) and then releases us in another part of our "energycycle".

If you mean that the princess in that one EVP might very well be experiencing life as it was before her death, as her reality, then, maybe I agree with your idea as plausible.

*IF* living EVPs, like the one of the workmen, or responsive EVPs are actually bleedover from another dimension, this may be another route to learning more about dimensional theory and/or the nature of time. It might also explain how we can pick up the recorded type of phenomenon.

Ahhhhh.... now my head feels so much lighter after having rambled so much sh** I don't see this as fact, i only see it as plausibility, and that is also why i hope one of the brains inhere pops by and reads it so i can get a hint of if it could be possible or not....<snip>* a small edit for the guys who might think i just went offtopic because i didn't mention aliens at all. <snip>ps. I hope you read it even though it might seem long"

Yes, this is just talking, throwing ideas around, not beliefs as yet . No worries about aliens, that is the other thread. and yeah, I read it all. You went to the trouble of replying, so it is the least I can do

NS

[lars123456789]

Hi Lars

Thanks for your thoughts, and I agree, I also hope others will mull this over in their minds and post their thoughts about it. I don't see the point of research if one then doesn't consider impact or what it means, and then test that. If we found out more about this phenomenon, and figured how to reproduce it, then it is no longer outside the parameters of science. IF that, then it changes a whole lot about the paranormal and what we're really seeing, hearing and dealing with.

well, it is ubiquitous - which is to say, everywhere and throughout.

If you mean that the princess in that one EVP might very well be experiencing life as it was before her death, as her reality, then, maybe I agree with your idea as plausible.

*IF* living EVPs, like the one of the workmen, or responsive EVPs are actually bleedover from another dimension, this may be another route to learning more about dimensional theory and/or the nature of time. It might also explain how we can pick up the recorded type of phenomenon.

Yes, this is just talking, throwing ideas around, not beliefs as yet . No worries about aliens, that is the other thread. and yeah, I read it all. You went to the trouble of replying, so it is the least I can do

NS

Regarding the part with the workingman and the princess i think you got my general idea, because my thought on it was that if these energies from the past dimension ( and when saying past dimension i mean we have HUGE amounts of them where our energies are living again and again and again) as i also said didn't know which direction to take the princess would still see the place that is our reality as her own reality meaning that everything as it was before for her in her own little bubble in our reality. the energy she has would be an individual energy with the possibilities of denying our reality and still keep her own and our individual energies in our reality also have the ability of denying her exsistence since her exsistence shouldn't be practically possible according to ourselves (holy sh** im rambling now). But then if we use a taperecorder as i also said before upthere we end up using a slaveenergyform that has been instructed to capture every other energy present in the room, also the coexisting non-existing energy from the "ghost", since the possibility of a ghost is out ruled here if you ask me since it would more be a doppelganger instead.

But the bigest problem i see in this theory is agressive ghosts, cause they shouldn't be capable of meddling with our reality, only theirs, but maybe some minds would be capable of learning to control the energies?

Also i apologize for the alien-thingy in the end, i copied it from another post i made in a discussion about the possibilities of aliens having ghosts:P

Edited May 18, 2008 by lars123456789

[jonny b]

The GH that really got me was the one where they were underneath the hotel "the shining", and they were saying hello, and they were getting a womans voice saying hello back in real time,It was clearly audible over the tv.Some EVP's seem to be able to react in real time while others may seem to be embedded in time.If you start talking about differant dimensional plains, it would seem that we would have to consider that thought itself would have something to do with it.Infact, I think that we could link alot of hauntings to that hypothysis.Say you have a residual haunting,a loop in time,which at one time had human thought behind it,a life, that persons thoughts could be manifest into it's own energy, or even rouge life form.Same sort of thing with an interactive haunting.That spirit or entity, might be able to create it's own percieved reality by it's own thoughts and experiences.It may or may not know exactly where it is, or what the date is.If it does,It may very well be able to see us and interact with us as anyone living can, and if not then they still might be able to interact with us,"maybe knowing, maybe confused",on a limited range as we might apear to them as they do to us.

[Nile_Shaman]

since the possibility of a ghost is out ruled here if you ask me since it would more be a doppelganger instead.

Well, my understanding is that the princess was not seen in any way, and doppelgangers are seen, impersonating someone else in the same time. So, I don't think this is the right word?

But the bigest problem i see in this theory is agressive ghosts, cause they shouldn't be capable of meddling with our reality, only theirs, but maybe some minds would be capable of learning to control the energies?

Totally possible, IMO. Whether the masses believe it or not, some people can learn how to "travel" astrally, and there are multiple cases of people being able to affect electronic equipment.

In the wierdest week of my life, I got a demo of energy going haywire. Coincidence? Maybe. In one week, in which I was stressed out past belief, my microwave, then my stove, my toaster, then my REFRGERATOR for crissakes, and the overhead light all blew on different days, as I touched it, turned it on or opened a door or threw a switch... When finally my coffeepot blew, I'd had it . Anything but the coffee pot *snivels*.

Yes, it was checked by an electrician. No, nothing was wrong with fuses or wiring. IF I actually did it, I wish I knew how to do so on command. How kewl to shut down boom boxes when they bother me I was using a pencil to flip switches for a while to avoid the POTENTIAL that maybe I was somehow projecting my emotional energy. After so much happening just by touching things, I got paranoid, yeah. *zap**smoke**flash**pop**hiss**pow** I wanted to sit down and howl LOL.

Having to buy new appliances when I was sure it was over with, whatever "it" was, just added insult to injury.

No, I have no super powers . I have no idea wtf was going on, and still don't. But, if could happen at random, then it might could be learned and controlled, so I don't blow off stories about people said to be able to affect electronics automatically. So, spirits can do something, somehow, if they can affect this plane, such as poltergeists throwing things.

*sits and thinks for a moment* now I think I'm babbling, so this post is over with LOL.

NS

[Nile_Shaman]

QUOTE (jonny b @ May 18 2008, 07:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That spirit or entity, might be able to create it's own percieved reality by it's own thoughts and experiences.It may or may not know exactly where it is, or what the date is.If it does,It may very well be able to see us and interact with us as anyone living can, and if not then they still might be able to interact with us,"maybe knowing, maybe confused",on a limited range as we might apear to them as they do to us.

Yeah, the word for it escapes me now, but will come to me and I'll edit this, but some occultists actively work to create these very things. It is a high octane version of thought forms and a lot of work, but they do it with some degree of success and ramifications too. The ramifications go to the amateurs messing with a master level sort of training *shrugs*. So, again, if it can be deliberately done, it can also happen given someone who invested intensely into their own identity and life, perhaps.... to some degree.

But, does it have a mind? Not really. It is not as we'd think of a personality as being. Can it gain and lose energy? Yes, readily. If not maintained, any structure or cohesion tends to break down and randomize more, which I see in a lot of haunting reports.

This is why I don't tend to believe in ghosts as defined by most.

I'll look up the word for this thing and be right back to edit this post with it.

NS

edit to add the word . Egregore.

Edited May 19, 2008 by Nile_Shaman

[lars123456789]

Well, my understanding is that the princess was not seen in any way, and doppelgangers are seen, impersonating someone else in the same time. So, I don't think this is the right word?

NS

Yes i also know myself the word is used a little wrong so i will have to explain myself properly for you to understand what i mean

Okay my picture of this with the energymasses is that we somewhere outthere (based on normal logics) must have something that controls the energy, and therefore we will end up with a master-energy and a slave-energy. Okay, now to my "doppelganger"-thesis, Let's make a little more fiction here again that some of my energies (that would be my individualenergies) was spilled out from another dimension and into this one ( the same as you were talking about with the wroksman where a dimension bled into this one), Now i have two complete energysets of me inhere in this dimension, but my originating energyset from this dimension will not recognice the other energyset, and the energyset that spilled in will not recognize this reality as reality because the result would be that it will give fatal problems in the whole general timeaspect that no human brain would be capable of handling to se oneself standing right next to one self in physical form. Now we get to the beef, as i said we had a master and a slave-energy, my energy is also a slave of an even bigger energy, but i also have some energies that i am master over and in complete control of. That would be f.x my digital camera and my taperacorder, these everydaythingenergies under my command are instructed to capture all energy in the room and translate that energy into either audio or video, therefore also capturing my own complete energyset next to me, i will therefore on the film be capable of seeing myself and capable of hearing myself on the tape, that is what i see as a doppelganger, and okay yes, i admit, i used the word wrong;P sorry. But you can see my general idea right? and don't worry about rambling, i do it all he time inhere:D

[Mabon]

Wow!

This thread got really interesting! I love all the brainstorming going on!

I LOL, out loud at the part of your post,

Anything but the coffee pot *snivels*. ~NS

It was a sympathetic laugh of course.

NS, is the word that you are looking for Tulpa? A Tulpa is a thought form manifesting as an energy construct in this space.

Regards,

Mabon.

[jonny b]

Wow!

This thread got really interesting! I love all the brainstorming going on!

I LOL, out loud at the part of your post, It was a sympathetic laugh of course.

NS, is the word that you are looking for Tulpa? A Tulpa is a thought form manifesting as an energy construct in this space.

Regards,

Mabon.

I was wondering if it is a possiblity for a living person "not dead yet", to create an emotional imprint in time, in a certain location.Say someone had a tramatic experience, or an experience that had a powerfull emotion behind it at a certain location.Say it imprints itself in time, and lets say that person moved away and on with thier life somewhere else,but are still well and alive.would we still be able to pick up EVP's say from what seems to be A residual haunting,and would or could there be what seems to be residual activity caused by that persons experiences in the past.

Kinda what I was saying earlier about an emotion or even just the actions that might be looping over and over again like a movie that somehow tends to become it's own rouge lifeform, or energy pattern of sorts.Tending to flair up at times and not others, or even managing to interact on a limited scale in the present even though it seems to be a haunting from past events.

Is it even a possibility that a residual haunt might at some point take on it's own awareness and become interactive?Not a true living entity but one that is created out of ill will or anger.More of a rouge emotion than a true life force or spirit if you will,which might explain things such as demons or even just some melevolant spirit activity.Really all we have to go on is our own perceptions and belief systems,and we have no real proof of life after death.Either way this is just food for thought, and I am just sort of spouting off random thought and questions.

We might be able to pick up EVP's from ourself at a point from the past if we still live in the same location and have a strong emotional imprint at that same location.That would be really messed up if someone had a residual or even interactive haunting from themselves.

[Guardian Angel of Fire]

QUOTE (jonny b @ May 20 2008, 07:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was wondering if it is a possiblity for a living person "not dead yet", to create an emotional imprint in time, in a certain location.Say someone had a tramatic experience, or an experience that had a powerfull emotion behind it at a certain location.Say it imprints itself in time, and lets say that person moved away and on with thier life somewhere else,but are still well and alive.would we still be able to pick up EVP's say from what seems to be A residual haunting,and would or could there be what seems to be residual activity caused by that persons experiences in the past.

I think that that is actually possible, i'm not sure really but i was watching a show where they were talking bout something like that, something happened to this woman but it was more or less she created her own hauntings, imprints, a poltergeist if you must say.

QUOTE (jonny b @ May 20 2008, 07:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is it even a possibility that a residual haunt might at some point take on it's own awareness and become interactive?Not a true living entity but one that is created out of ill will or anger.More of a rouge emotion than a true life force or spirit if you will,which might explain things such as demons or even just some melevolant spirit activity.Really all we have to go on is our own perceptions and belief systems,and we have no real proof of life after death.Either way this is just food for thought, and I am just sort of spouting off random thought and questions.

We might be able to pick up EVP's from ourself at a point from the past if we still live in the same location and have a strong emotional imprint at that same location.That would be really messed up if someone had a residual or even interactive haunting from themselves.

I doubt really in my opinion that a residual haunt can become an intelligent haunting. But one that, like i stated above that a person created such as a poltergeist, i believe can be come interactive, but it more less depends upon who that person is that is creating this haunting, you can infact create your own haunting through your emotions. You can project your emotions and give it a physical body, face and personality.

[Mabon]

Hello Jonny b.

Just musing myself.... A residual haunting would be of a specific event or trauma. Or at least that's how I perceive it.

What your talking about really does sound like a Tulpa. Say for sake of argument *disclaimer LOL!* there is an individual who is in a stressful situation (it can be anything just so long as it's stressful).

They can't deal with the emotions they are feeling and they don't want those emotions to be a part of them. They create (unconsciously) an entity of pure thought that is that emotion, hate, revenge something strong and usually dark because they don't want to 'claim' that emotion as a part of themselves. I guess that according to the way it's traditionally read/thought of a tulpa fits the bill for this.

Because as long as the individual is outwardly calm but inwardly upset the entity will continue to grow and it seems sometimes takes on so much of the person's hidden personality that it seems like a separate entity.

Personally I think it explains demons and poltergeist perfectly. But a lot of people won't like the answer because of accountability issues. LOL!

I don't know if a residual would become aware.. that one is a puzzle..

However if an individual could somehow connect with an aspect of themselves living in a different 'time' they possibly could interact with that aspect. At this point of thinking of all possibilities of such a thing my head begins to threatens to explode. LOL!

Or to quote Dr. Who....

People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but *actually* from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff.

err... it's complicated.

Regards,

Mabon.

[jonny b]

Hello Jonny b.

Just musing myself.... A residual haunting would be of a specific event or trauma. Or at least that's how I perceive it.

What your talking about really does sound like a Tulpa. Say for sake of argument *disclaimer LOL!* there is an individual who is in a stressful situation (it can be anything just so long as it's stressful).

They can't deal with the emotions they are feeling and they don't want those emotions to be a part of them. They create (unconsciously) an entity of pure thought that is that emotion, hate, revenge something strong and usually dark because they don't want to 'claim' that emotion as a part of themselves. I guess that according to the way it's traditionally read/thought of a tulpa fits the bill for this.

Because as long as the individual is outwardly calm but inwardly upset the entity will continue to grow and it seems sometimes takes on so much of the person's hidden personality that it seems like a separate entity.

Personally I think it explains demons and poltergeist perfectly. But a lot of people won't like the answer because of accountability issues. LOL!

I don't know if a residual would become aware.. that one is a puzzle..

However if an individual could somehow connect with an aspect of themselves living in a different 'time' they possibly could interact with that aspect. At this point of thinking of all possibilities of such a thing my head begins to threatens to explode. LOL!

Or to quote Dr. Who....

err... it's complicated.

Regards,

Mabon.

yeah, tulpa would be a really good word to use for that.

Golems are said to be the same sort of thing, kinda.They are animated through magic and display all sorts of human attributes, yet they are not alive,but they are self aware.They are also considered to be dangerous, and need to be kept in check.But this is jewish folklore im talking about here,but it is the same kind of premise.Lets say a reisidual haunting is seperate from the individual who may have created it.Lets say that that residual haunting somehow becomes self aware,then it would be able to be interactive and capable of change.Might start to think for itslef,like the theory that a computer someday might be able to become self aware,and start to think on it's own.maybe even able to create it's own basic emotional states, yet it would not be alive,at least in the sence that you and the rest of us are.

[Nile_Shaman]

NS, is the word that you are looking for Tulpa? A Tulpa is a thought form manifesting as an energy construct in this space.

EGREGORE is the word used by occultists who do this systematically. Perhaps the words are interchangeable in meaning, but occultists I know, speak of the process as that word I used and sometimes solicit other occultists to further it energy-wise and developmentally. Normally, they are created with a specific scope of function, with a specific goal in mind, when done by those who take this sort of thing seriously. Those who play with the idea and experiment (every discipline has that fringe element of gamers) generally end up with something (if anything) no more organized than their own brain cells and self controls. Those usually dissipate or randomize past usefulness eventually. It takes more to do it right than most can manage, which is a good thing.

I have often observed stories in these ghostie forums, and wondered if this is what is being dealt with in many cases, versus Dead. My background has been years and years studying occultism and religions, and I am new to the ghost community, by comparison. When I joined here is about when I even knew some of these paranormal ideas were floating around. I was researching a particular demon's history and google linked to JN's famous thread. The phenomenon is familiar to me, but not all the interpretations I read here, on the whole, and for the most part, that is a good thing. I read a lot, I don't post a lot.

However, if you know the mechanics of it, you would recognize that tulpas are readily created to varying degrees (requiring no knowledge or intent) by lasting emotions, or longterm ones. To do it in one event would require extremity, and these are not as diverse in behavior or scope or organization. It is from the normal that occultists discern the potentials to do something more advanced, on the whole. Tulpa-like things happen, so how to make it happen in the way I want, to do what I want?

Because as long as the individual is outwardly calm but inwardly upset the entity will continue to grow and it seems sometimes takes on so much of the person's hidden personality that it seems like a separate entity.

Personally I think it explains demons and poltergeist perfectly.

Yes, a ton of depression cases, poltergeist cases, and hauntings are rooted in this (IMO, IMO, from my own investigations, so if you don't agree go keep on doing your theories, too with my blessing. There are endless variations and mysteries for us all to have our own proofs and ideas and no need to argue or as one here has, accuse me of being the Devil myself You should be so lucky if I was). One *can* undo them themselves if they change the inputs, but it takes time and is very hard for the victim to do it alone, and they are hampered as well. Hence why an outside cathartic event, such as an exorcism, with outside energy inputs, can reduce or obliterate it entirely.

They are not self aware, but can mimic it, as they are patterned on the matrices of those who input to them as they were forming up. The ones created without any knowledge, such as we're speaking of here, can be regular psychological cluster-f's to sort out, and require an extreme level of self honesty to realize and root out the truth and links within.... or to get an outside blast and skip that.

However, not everything is a tulpa. The majority of cases I read about here, are versions of it. I do know there are very advanced forms which approach intelligent, awareness enough to identify with the name of their matrix even after the matrix has died and passed over. But, they lack the survival instinct of a real ...um.... person(?). Satisfy thier main self believed reason for being and they can and will self absolve. What that reason is, however, is obscure and not something it wears on it's sleeve. It may not even be rational or logical, as it is on auto-pilot, really, at that point.

But a lot of people won't like the answer because of accountability issues. LOL

I disagree, hun. This is more spiteful than you realize to assume and painful, too. It is like telling someone suffering clinical depression to just "get over it". You just isolate the victim more, and increase their belief in themselves as a failure of some kind. You make it worse.

After being freed of it, they can learn these things, if they are even inclined to. Once over the depression a victim can see the fact that given counselling or a pill, or whatever the break was, it passed and life is worth living and the answer is not to suicide or whatever they thought, but not at the time. Don't hurt people, hun, like that. Think about it.

I do know, there are fully intelligent evils out there. Call them what you wish. Some are not from here/human in origin and those I think of as demons. Some are very obscure and hard to track to source. Others seem to be rooted into human sources. Those get made in many cases, but the hows and whys and length of time and effort (generations) it takes to do so leaves us with the good news that it ain't the case much. Some refer to them as archetypes, but they don't usually understand the mechanics or state of what it actually is. They can and do bounce religions off them.

And it suits me to the very core of my soul if you don't believe that. I'm happy and comfy if you don't believe me at all.

There is also the Great Good, and an array of opposing energies as well of the same classes. I very much believe in God, and Creation.

It is a system. But above that is a level we do not create, of both extremes. Do they come into your livingroom and stalk your kid? Rarely. No need, as we are beyond capable of creating our own angels and demons all by our little selves, which is an aspect of "let Us create them in our Image" that nobody ever addresses. We are creators, too, and haven't learned how to create our own Edens very well, yet.

JMO, based on my own work and effort. YMMV and similar disclaimers....

NS

Edited May 20, 2008 by Nile_Shaman

[Nile_Shaman]

QUOTE (jonny b @ May 20 2008, 07:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was wondering if it is a possiblity for a living person "not dead yet", to create an emotional imprint in time, in a certain location.Say someone had a tramatic experience, or an experience that had a powerfull emotion behind it at a certain location.Say it imprints itself in time, and lets say that person moved away and on with thier life somewhere else,but are still well and alive.would we still be able to pick up EVP's say from what seems to be A residual haunting,and would or could there be what seems to be residual activity caused by that persons experiences in the past.

Precisely the point of my starting this thread, my friend! The GH show recorded an apparent EVP of living workmen while they were working. Zero history of them dying in that job or anything of the sort. They left the place and went on with thier lives by everything we can know.

Once I thought about it, I realized they happen a lot, and get filed with the "ghost" EVPs and it had never occurred to me to sit up and say "Wait a minute". IF it doesn't matter if one is dead or alive at the time of the words, then we may be dealing with a symptom or indicator of something far bigger.

Dimensionality? A quirk of "time"?

I dunno, but it is wildly good fun to talk here with other thinkers and brainstorm thoughts and ideas based on it.

NS

[jonny b]

EGREGORE is the word used by occultists who do this systematically. Perhaps the words are interchangeable in meaning, but occultists I know, speak of the process as that word I used and sometimes solicit other occultists to further it energy-wise and developmentally. Normally, they are created with a specific scope of function, with a specific goal in mind, when done by those who take this sort of thing seriously. Those who play with the idea and experiment (every discipline has that fringe element of gamers) generally end up with something (if anything) no more organized than their own brain cells and self controls. Those usually dissipate or randomize past usefulness eventually. It takes more to do it right than most can manage, which is a good thing.

I have often observed stories in these ghostie forums, and wondered if this is what is being dealt with in many cases, versus Dead. My background has been years and years studying occultism and religions, and I am new to the ghost community, by comparison. When I joined here is about when I even knew some of these paranormal ideas were floating around. I was researching a particular demon's history and google linked to JN's famous thread. The phenomenon is familiar to me, but not all the interpretations I read here, on the whole, and for the most part, that is a good thing. I read a lot, I don't post a lot.

However, if you know the mechanics of it, you would recognize that tulpas are readily created to varying degrees (requiring no knowledge or intent) by lasting emotions, or longterm ones. To do it in one event would require extremity, and these are not as diverse in behavior or scope or organization. It is from the normal that occultists discern the potentials to do something more advanced, on the whole. Tulpa-like things happen, so how to make it happen in the way I want, to do what I want?

As Jonny B says here:

Yes, a ton of depression cases, poltergeist cases, and hauntings are rooted in this (IMO, IMO, from my own investigations, so if you don't agree go keep on doing your theories, too with my blessing. There are endless variations and mysteries for us all to have our own proofs and ideas and no need to argue or as one here has, accuse me of being the Devil myself You should be so lucky if I was). One *can* undo them themselves if they change the inputs, but it takes time and is very hard for the victim to do it alone, and they are hampered as well. Hence why an outside cathartic event, such as an exorcism, with outside energy inputs, can reduce or obliterate it entirely.

They are not self aware, but can mimic it, as they are patterned on the matrices of those who input to them as they were forming up. The ones created without any knowledge, such as we're speaking of here, can be regular psychological cluster-f's to sort out, and require an extreme level of self honesty to realize and root out the truth and links within.... or to get an outside blast and skip that.

However, not everything is a tulpa. The majority of cases I read about here, are versions of it. I do know there are very advanced forms which approach intelligent, awareness enough to identify with the name of their matrix even after the matrix has died and passed over. But, they lack the survival instinct of a real ...um.... person(?). Satisfy thier main self believed reason for being and they can and will self absolve. What that reason is, however, is obscure and not something it wears on it's sleeve. It may not even be rational or logical, as it is on auto-pilot, really, at that point.

Jonny b said:

I disagree, hun. This is more spiteful than you realize to assume and painful, too. It is like telling someone suffering clinical depression to just "get over it". You just isolate the victim more, and increase their belief in themselves as a failure of some kind. You make it worse.

After being freed of it, they can learn these things, if they are even inclined to. Once over the depression a victim can see the fact that given counselling or a pill, or whatever the break was, it passed and life is worth living and the answer is not to suicide or whatever they thought, but not at the time. Don't hurt people, hun, like that. Think about it.

I do know, there are fully intelligent evils out there. Call them what you wish. Some are not from here/human in origin and those I think of as demons. Some are very obscure and hard to track to source. Others seem to be rooted into human sources. Those get made in many cases, but the hows and whys and length of time and effort (generations) it takes to do so leaves us with the good news that it ain't the case much. Some refer to them as archetypes, but they don't usually understand the mechanics or state of what it actually is. They can and do bounce religions off them.

And it suits me to the very core of my soul if you don't believe that. I'm happy and comfy if you don't believe me at all.

There is also the Great Good, and an array of opposing energies as well of the same classes. I very much believe in God, and Creation.

It is a system. But above that is a level we do not create, of both extremes. Do they come into your livingroom and stalk your kid? Rarely. No need, as we are beyond capable of creating our own angels and demons all by our little selves, which is an aspect of "let Us create them in our Image" that nobody ever addresses. We are creators, too, and haven't learned how to create our own Edens very well, yet.

JMO, based on my own work and effort. YMMV and similar disclaimers....

NS

LOL, sorry, I can't read all of your post till i get back from work, but those quotes are from mabon, and not me.Sorry got to go, I'm late and will read later.

[Nile_Shaman]

QUOTE (jonny b @ May 20 2008, 03:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

LOL, sorry, I can't read all of your post till i get back from work, but those quotes are from mabon, and not me.Sorry got to go, I'm late and will read later.

Sorry, fixed it, but if you will persist in quoting entire posts before replying, it's gonna happen

NS

[jonny b]

ok, I'm back and read your posts.some good info and opinions there.

It's pretty funny, cause I was actually thinking about this topic quite a bit about 3 weeks ago.

The egregor could explain alot in terms of local legends, in any givin area of the world,and there spirits or gods,and the corolation between them and real experiences those people have.

I grew up in hawaii and there is the goddess pele,and people have claimed to actually have seen her, and then there are the nightmarchers as well Which one does not really want to get caught up in.There are a bunch of legends and experiences that people have from that part of the world,that is spacific to the natives there,and the egregor might explain why that is.This is such a cool subject to ponder over.