Living EVPs?

[Nile_Shaman]

QUOTE (jonny b @ May 21 2008, 01:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The egregor could explain alot in terms of local legends, in any givin area of the world,and there spirits or gods,and the corolation between them and real experiences those people have.

I grew up in hawaii and there is the goddess pele,and people have claimed to actually have seen her, and then there are the nightmarchers as well Which one does not really want to get caught up in.There are a bunch of legends and experiences that people have from that part of the world,that is spacific to the natives there,and the egregor might explain why that is.This is such a cool subject to ponder over.

Yeah. It sounds like an Egregore is to Western Ceremonial Magic what a Golem is to the Judaic versions thereof, after reading your description above. Vodou has it, many others, in fact...... well, I won't go there.

NS

[Mabon]

Hello NS,

I didn't mean to cause offense even casually. I didn't expand on the idea of accountability because it seemed to me to sidetrack from the topic. I don't blame an individual who is in a state of crisis and think that if they choose they can learn from it.

But I will expand here. I don't think that a person who accidentally creates a entity will like being told or finding out they have created it. It is an accountability issue. They are suffering from emotions that they don't want, can't express. Yet to find out that they are the source of some of their own trouble doesn't sit well. The conscious pricks and pinches then adds guilt to the negative emotions that they are already feeling. It doesn't have to.. it can be a catalyst for change and growth if that person chooses it to be. It's a big step, a frightening one. It means speaking about the things that bug the individual instead of holding them in or forcing them out in ways that are negative but channeling that same energy in a positive way.

But that's the bottom line for me is learning about choice in such instances. It's also sometimes very difficult to take a large body of stuff (information, ideas formed or half formed, musings mental ramblings of mine) and try to put it in words that are plain, when each of us who are interested in the phenomena term what may be the same or similar observations in our own way.

I don't (or try not to) get offended by different opinions observations. I hadn't heard the term you used. It's interesting and I will try to find more information on it.

So again I didn't mean to cause offense. All I was doing was thinking about hypothetical situations and brainstorming..

Regards,

Mabon.

[Nile_Shaman]

I didn't mean to cause offense even casually. I didn't expand on the idea of accountability because it seemed to me to sidetrack from the topic. I don't blame an individual who is in a state of crisis and think that if they choose they can learn from it.

Oh, my Lord, Mabon, I know that! In rereading my post it doesn't read like my tone was saying when I was typing it. I am SORRY if I led you or anyone to read censure in what I said. I was trying to open the issue of while we can think we understand a phenomenon, to the victim of it, it can seem very different and is not a case as simple as we might suppose.

I have never ever read you to sound as if you did intend a single word to insult anyone. I didn't INTEND to, here, and if I did, I apologize all over the place to you, my friend. ... I wouldn't to many, LOL, but to you, oh yeah. You don't deserve it.

But I will expand here. I don't think that a person who accidentally creates a entity will like being told or finding out they have created it. It is an accountability issue. They are suffering from emotions that they don't want, can't express. Yet to find out that they are the source of some of their own trouble doesn't sit well. The conscious pricks and pinches then adds guilt to the negative emotions that they are already feeling. It doesn't have to.. it can be a catalyst for change and growth if that person chooses it to be. It's a big step, a frightening one. It means speaking about the things that bug the individual instead of holding them in or forcing them out in ways that are negative but channeling that same energy in a positive way.

Yes, it is a real conundrum and you have explained the reality of it well. We live in a culture which always allows us to blame others in lawsuits and there is an acronym for everything that ails us emotionally, too. Fast as they can make it, pharmacy companies have a pill for it, too.

A lot of that is real, and needed. I am NOT addressing mental health issues of a degree which require treating. I am not a doctor or psychiatrist. I merely am speaking to the range of passing states any of us can experience short of it, during really hard times for us to cope with.

The problem with the whole Tulpa thing, is that we don't know or notice the process and many never do. It can be such a personal construct that it feels like part of us. It can work both ways, too. I have walked into empty houses and felt memories of happiness from the walls, could almost hear laughter and positive things. Not all "haunts" are negative .

Do you recall that story about the tar baby? The more he tried to get loose from it, the more stuck he got. Trying to learn these concepts and change what you are putting out to something like that is similar. When you're depressed or grieving or confused, it is about the last thing to be able to do to send out clean positive happiness and success and love and similar positive things.

It becomes a process of fundamental change within yourself. If I went into detail about how to do this, people would be all screaming and shouting that I was a loon, because the tulpa effect is addictive and reinforces the personality which has been making it since birth. So, I won't go into that and will leave us all to the slower process of learning this (or not) as they go. I suspect we all have our own sort of tulpa. I suspect the process is inherent to us, but we do not yet know the method by which we do it. Some of the "power of positive thinking" folks have a piece of it, but telling a deeply depressed person who sees no hope in their situation to do that is like throwing fuel on a fire or stoning them.

I lost one of my closest mentors, who was like a big brother to me as a cop, to cancer. On top of the other stresses in my life and having to keep on going as if my mind was not always on his latest treatment or prognosis over the two years before he succumbed, it overwhelmed me and I had to leave it ALL. I am still trying to totally overcome that lingering influence of sadness and hope and loss, apart from the simple and normal grief. So, I know it can be a long process, depending on your own personality. I am very much of a loner and introvert, so that quality tends to reinforce the construct from that timeframe.

Do I think ALL depression or hauntings are caused by this? Oh no way! But for the average joes and janes among us, it is a larger player than we know, even if it never progresses to any degree of outward manifestation.

But that's the bottom line for me is learning about choice in such instances. It's also sometimes very difficult to take a large body of stuff (information, ideas formed or half formed, musings mental ramblings of mine) and try to put it in words that are plain, when each of us who are interested in the phenomena term what may be the same or similar observations in our own way.

Yes, communication is a high magic in itself, I think LOL. Maybe the highest Mankind has.

I hadn't heard the term you used. It's interesting and I will try to find more information on it.

So again I didn't mean to cause offense. All I was doing was thinking about hypothetical situations and brainstorming..

that's all I was doing, too, and it came off wrong. I hope you will share your thoughts with me about it and maybe we can keep brainstorming, even if no one else is interested. Then, we can figure out ways to test the theory and maybe learn more about it, or debunk it and revise it, eh? Obviously, most aren't interested so we could take it to our inboxes.

NS

[jonny b]

Well, I am seriously interested in this subject, as I see it as one of the most interesting topics I've talked about with someone else in a long time.

Infact, I was thinking about this, and given the fact that someone might suppress things in thier subconcience, "like a tramatic effect of some sorts", A person might create this entity in this way and not even know it's something of thier own doing.This might lead to a ngative huanting or explain a polterghiest.

But this is what I really started to think about.If factions of societies around the world start to think about paranormal events, such as aliens visiting the earth,and a group or collective conciousness forms this entity, such as aliens or space craft, and others witness it, even if they have never heard of the phenomenon before,they would become believers.This would make the entity stronger and more prevalant.

[Mabon]

No problems Nile!

(((HUGS)))!!!

Thank you so much for talking with me!!

I do regret how what I wrote read... It was one of those instances where I knew what I meant..

Brier Rabbit is one of my favorite teaching tales. It's a good analogy too.

Warm regards,

Mabon.

[Nile_Shaman]

But that's the bottom line for me is learning about choice in such instances. It's also sometimes very difficult to take a large body of stuff (information, ideas formed or half formed, musings mental ramblings of mine) and try to put it in words that are plain, when each of us who are interested in the phenomena term what may be the same or similar observations in our own way.

Yes, and I think that the origins of "tulpa", "egregore", "golem" and others are signs of how widespread awareness is of such things, but also how nebulous. It is simpler for us to brush it all off under the present favorite word "ghosts".

I don't think all "ghosts" are the same thing. My ideas here are not intended to be interpreted that this is what I believe all ghosts are, or all hauntings, or all demon possessions or whatever.

But, I know, I have seen and watched and interacted with these advanced constructs, and I see a lot of phenomenon which coincides with the same signatures, if you will.

It would be easy to end up in an argument, just based on terminology and coming at it from different points, and feel as if we were not speaking about the same thing, because people tie different understandings to a word, as you say.

Most of the time, if someone speaks of a haunting that has turned ugly, or a demonic infestation, you see the debate break into three camps. The Believers, the You Need A Psychiatrists, and the That Would Be So Cool To Be Like The Addams Family For Reals.

But, they all see this as outside. I don't think it always, or even usually, is. I also don't think it means someone is in need of Psychiatirc help if they become aware of repeating and undesireable trends going on in their life and start to wonder if they are "cursed" or a real loser somehow. I think it is worth talking about to see if others consider it and find correlations at all enough to help us define it better and maybe then define the best ways to ... reform such a thing for our betterment if it proves out that we do this inherently simply by living.

*frowns* does that make sense? It does to me but I am not sure if I was clear....

jonny b wrote: But this is what I really started to think about.If factions of societies around the world start to think about paranormal events, such as aliens visiting the earth,and a group or collective conciousness forms this entity, such as aliens or space craft, and others witness it, even if they have never heard of the phenomenon before,they would become believers.This would make the entity stronger and more prevalant.

Yes, I think there is more linkage between the ET thing and Ghost thing than we realize yet, but some people out there are starting to note the similarities and have the brass to sit back and question it all. If we cannot get rid of the cr*p and fantasy, we will never find out if there is anything defineable and identifiable truly under it all.

I enjoy a good line in a sci fi or ghost novel. But, I cannot base my life and beliefs on something like that. I want the truth to the extent I can determine it. Nice if it proves a fond fantasy or two.... but, on the whole, my life doesn't seem to work that way often LOL. Pick one fantasy of mine to prove real? Winning the world's biggest ever lotto all by myself. Yeah.

anyway,

NS

[jonny b]

Yes, I tend to agree with alot of what you say.

It seems to me, And this is something else about this that I was thinking about, is that I have heard people say"I asked for a spirit to haunt me" or they were ingaged in something paranormal"or what is considered to be anyways",and bam the next thing you know they have an experience.Now this would seem to tie into the tulpa thing completely.I understand where you are comming from though as I believe as well that there are real entities out there that are truely of thier own origin.

Again I have to say that this is one of the best topics that I have actually come across.Is there anyone who does alot of research or adresses this subject?

[Nile_Shaman]

QUOTE (jonny b @ May 23 2008, 01:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It seems to me, And this is something else about this that I was thinking about, is that I have heard people say"I asked for a spirit to haunt me" or they were ingaged in something paranormal"or what is considered to be anyways",and bam the next thing you know they have an experience.Now this would seem to tie into the tulpa thing completely.I understand where you are comming from though as I believe as well that there are real entities out there that are truely of thier own origin.

Indeed, there are. There are also some who, if they did begin as racial archetypes way back when, have evolved through the constancy of these subconcious forms, into what can seem (and might well actually be) independant states. That is one theory, anyway.

As for examples where someone messes into something they already believe subconciously is wrong or dangerous, they are vulnerable to receiving thier own "punishment" as it were. I think the mental state and inner matrix of a person controls a good deal of that... which, as you say, does tie into the idea of tulpas. However, I also know that there is a large contingent of people who'd say this was simply a result of the sin of messing with forbidden spirits and into occultic matters, and I am not here to debate them. I am simply following the breadcrumb trail I have been on for many years now. If one thinks, it may well be the same thing we're talking about in this instance, looked at from two different perspectives. *shrugs*

Again I have to say that this is one of the best topics that I have actually come across.Is there anyone who does alot of research or adresses this subject?

I have never met anyone, yet. I used to maintain a database and documented my findings from the past 30 years of working around it, but after finding this forum a year ago or so now and realizing the potential hazard such info could be for people, I removed it all from any connection to the internet, destroyed a lot of it, and retain it in part only for my godson, who is understudying me as he can. I would be responsible for anything I myself have found out and let go to someone who then got harmed by it, and that is a bigger issue with me than any other factor.

But, the ideas of tulpas are not unique, which is the only reason I have mentioned it to this extent. I am not responsible for what others do or release online to anyone who reads it. Just myself and my own data.

There may be books about tulpas? I haven't looked to know if there are any or how good they are. I don't have a high opinion of any books out there commonly which deal in anything which could be said to touch on occultic topics. What angle specifically interests you?

They form part of the answer, are majorly overlooked, but not the whole answer or picture, and even for me, they do not form the larger part of my own journey of wonderings pursued.

JMO

NS

[Mabon]

Hello NS.

Post 31 is an awesome one.

One of the first places that I read about different branches of study coming together was in Mothman Prophesies. Keel observed that UFO, cryptids (Sp?), poltergeists et all were present during the sightings/encounters er... however anyone wants to term it. I thought that it was very interesting and opened (unfortunately) more questions than it answered. He also questioned the idea of dimensional beings. Perhaps forty years later the book isn't as revolutionary as it once was but for the time... I found it and still find it to be a good read.

Reason being for me, was that he was more interested in debunking the events first. He observed things with a skeptical eye and really as his prior book Jadoo showed, wouldn't have had a problem looking for and exposing the trick for what it was.

One of the prospects that this board holds is people with information, termed their own way!! Learning how they view things/aspects..

Tulpa, egregore, golem are just names, perhaps ethnically and in their original meaning do mean different and precise things maybe they don't. I don't know yet. Two of these I know their meaning and one of them is new to me.. eregore. (Like I said I'm going to have to investigate that one!) Personally this is one of the aspects of the board that I enjoy. Finding something new! But then the questions begin... is it similar? is it different? Ya know, hold it up to the light, throw it around and see what falls out of it. This is also one of the wonderful things about not being so serious all the time (at least for me) is to get to just think and muse and wonder. *sighs*

Not that the I find the subject to frivolous, quite the contrary, it just seems the way that I work best is to not to be so hide bound all the time. All work and no play and all that....

Regards,

Mabon.

garbled sentence.

Edited May 23, 2008 by Mabon

[jonny b]

Indeed, there are. There are also some who, if they did begin as racial archetypes way back when, have evolved through the constancy of these subconcious forms, into what can seem (and might well actually be) independant states. That is one theory, anyway.

As for examples where someone messes into something they already believe subconciously is wrong or dangerous, they are vulnerable to receiving thier own "punishment" as it were. I think the mental state and inner matrix of a person controls a good deal of that... which, as you say, does tie into the idea of tulpas. However, I also know that there is a large contingent of people who'd say this was simply a result of the sin of messing with forbidden spirits and into occultic matters, and I am not here to debate them. I am simply following the breadcrumb trail I have been on for many years now. If one thinks, it may well be the same thing we're talking about in this instance, looked at from two different perspectives. *shrugs*

I have never met anyone, yet. I used to maintain a database and documented my findings from the past 30 years of working around it, but after finding this forum a year ago or so now and realizing the potential hazard such info could be for people, I removed it all from any connection to the internet, destroyed a lot of it, and retain it in part only for my godson, who is understudying me as he can. I would be responsible for anything I myself have found out and let go to someone who then got harmed by it, and that is a bigger issue with me than any other factor.

But, the ideas of tulpas are not unique, which is the only reason I have mentioned it to this extent. I am not responsible for what others do or release online to anyone who reads it. Just myself and my own data.

There may be books about tulpas? I haven't looked to know if there are any or how good they are. I don't have a high opinion of any books out there commonly which deal in anything which could be said to touch on occultic topics. What angle specifically interests you?

They form part of the answer, are majorly overlooked, but not the whole answer or picture, and even for me, they do not form the larger part of my own journey of wonderings pursued.

JMO

NS

What interests me?Well, I guess the whole subject,trying to sift through the all the stories out there for answers.It's not like I would ever want to or need to create one,but this just fascinates me, and it seems to open up into a whole new realm of posibilities.It seems to spawn new questions,and new answers,and I am a very curious person.I have had alot of personal paranormal experiences, and I wonder if I could apply this to the experiences that I have had in the past.I really have to agree with you, that if this is a part of the answer to things that are paranormal, it is widely overlooked,and it is an issue that is worth investigating in my opinion.

[jonny b]

Ok sorry for the double post but another thought occurs to me, that I have had alot of personal experience with.I know there are many others with the same experience as well.I have moved into places,and "nothing", it is calm, there is no real energy in there but my own,and then there has been places I have lived in that seem to have some sort of residual negative energy, "that I assume was spawned by someone who has lived there before me".I am very good at picking up on emotional imprints both from the past and directly off of other people in real time.So If I go into a place and feel a strong energy of emotions such as anger or sadness,or any other states of turmoil,I was thinking this is exactly something that could be explained by what we are talking about here.

Poeple have this happen all the, time and they themselves preform rituals to cleanse a place, such as a blessing of the home or smudding sage, etc.etc.Not that these energies are full blown entities or anything,but more of a low level tulpa or egregor.Again this could also be that these emotional states get caught er trapped in time or embedding in a spacific place, where it just seems to stew.people could unknowingly add to the negativity making it stronger if say they just had a crapy day and they are in a bad mood,and so on and on.Then eventually that imprint may grow till it seems to be uncontrollable.

anyways just kinda thinking about this some more and thought I would share.

[Nile_Shaman]

One of the first places that I read about different branches of study coming together was in Mothman Prophesies. Keel observed that UFO, cryptids (Sp?), poltergeists et all were present during the sightings/encounters er... however anyone wants to term it. I thought that it was very interesting and opened (unfortunately) more questions than it answered. He also questioned the idea of dimensional beings. Perhaps forty years later the book isn't as revolutionary as it once was but for the time... I found it and still find it to be a good read.

You know, I never really have looked into that, in fact, did not hear about it until I read it mentioned here. But, it does make things harder when you get a mixed group of observers unless they stay on it and talk back and forth and are willing to let go of their pet belief (it's a bird, it's a plane, no, it's whatever) and consider it might even be a separate "thing". They sort of have to learn each other's contexts and constructs and compare notes. It makes it all worse when you are talking about things which generally are not mainstreamed and not always seen, and are, when it comes down to it, often matters more of faith than tangible evidence. The one time I read an account about a sighting or two, it struck me that it sounded like the version of loup gawou that lurks in Haitian mythology somewhat. Sort of a case of "same thing, only different".

Reason being for me, was that he was more interested in debunking the events first. He observed things with a skeptical eye and really as his prior book Jadoo showed, wouldn't have had a problem looking for and exposing the trick for what it was.

I think we have to. In investigating anything, one has two choices. Either one tries to mainstream their data for more participation and inputs, or they keep it to themselves or in small groups to avoid that drama. There is a price both ways. The former suffer being mocked as loons, and the latter get suspected of evil doings... perhaps even loony evil doings LOL.

One of the prospects that this board holds is people with information, termed their own way!! Learning how they view things/aspects..

Tulpa, egregore, golem are just names, perhaps ethnically and in their original meaning do mean different and precise things maybe they don't. I don't know yet. Two of these I know their meaning and one of them is new to me.. eregore. (Like I said I'm going to have to investigate that one!) Personally this is one of the aspects of the board that I enjoy. Finding something new! But then the questions begin... is it similar? is it different? Ya know, hold it up to the light, throw it around and see what falls out of it. This is also one of the wonderful things about not being so serious all the time (at least for me) is to get to just think and muse and wonder. *sighs*

Yes, it is! When I saw that live EVP and a clue light came on, and I thought of many others, too, in hindsight where it was an EVP from just people like us, and we simply assume it was a sound or word from the Dead, I had hoped for the same when I started this topic. But, I find most people by far enjoy their ghost stories and few are willing to even entertain a possible way which might explain them as something else entirely, or totally be a way to confirm them as real. Learning poses either risk .

To me, the very idea of dimensionality and an ability to interact somehow with denizens of the other is wildly fascinating. Who knows what we could find out and learn, if true? Or find out this is all cr*p and we're after a red herring and start over. It takes other minds for that. Other ideas and experiences being shared, and after a point, that becomes dangerous. Some experiences run the risk of really drawing fire. I'm surprised nobody went ape over my blowout of a week I talked about here, for example. On another recent thread, I considered the evidence a Believer was asking about and then what the "debunkers" said and went and did some work on my own time. I had to side with the debunkers and wrote a summary of why and what I believed it was, and got snideness for the effort from that believer. Some people do not want truth, they want proof of their beliefs, and nothing else.

But, that is not knowledge or learning. It's no threat to give up a bit proven wrong and chase what is not proven yet, if your passion is for truth, versus any idea. Ideas are just hypotheses until a whole lotta independant testing can be done to make it more solid.

Not that the I find the subject to frivolous, quite the contrary, it just seems the way that I work best is to not to be so hide bound all the time. All work and no play and all that....

Well, these are serious days for me, as I jobhunt in the midst of the Poverty Belt from a farm that is 40 miles from the nearest gas station or convenience store. In fact, I may soon make a few folks happy and vanish from the net for a bit if one of these resumes and applications doesn't get picked up SOON. I am facing several serious decisions personally, these days. So, maybe that tone is leeching into my escapism to immerse myself in research and writing. But, on the whole, I do turn very serious when it comes to a few areas, and this is one. I have been pursuing this area for over 30 years at every opportunity. (and all of that and a buck can get me a cup of coffee, before tax).

But, I do not take myself too seriously. Just the topic. That is something at least LOL.

Hugs,

NS

[Nile_Shaman]

QUOTE (jonny b @ May 23 2008, 11:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What interests me?Well, I guess the whole subject,trying to sift through the all the stories out there for answers.It's not like I would ever want to or need to create one,but this just fascinates me, and it seems to open up into a whole new realm of posibilities.

It does, IMO, but a lot of people really feel those occultists over there are evil, and assume we all are sacrificing cats and doing pacts with the devil, when in fact we're chasing our own ideas and observations the very same as ghost hunters or any others on these boards. I have NEVER sacrificed a living thing, nor made any pact with anybody but my Creator, nor have I had to. Ridiculous.

What I might explain to you face to face is not what I would write, jonny. I just won't go there and don't need to for the discussion here on UM anyway.

One of my personal life options is pointing to having to move for a while to your neck of the woods anyway, so we might have that conversation someday. Who knows?

It seems to spawn new questions,and new answers,and I am a very curious person.I have had alot of personal paranormal experiences, and I wonder if I could apply this to the experiences that I have had in the past.I really have to agree with you, that if this is a part of the answer to things that are paranormal, it is widely overlooked,and it is an issue that is worth investigating in my opinion.

Well, look the memories over, and consider it and bounce ideas off me if you like. I'm easy that way. If, in the process, you find this to be useless, I'd like to hear that, too. But... I'm not holding my breath expecting the latter.

as always JMO, LOL.

NS

[Nile_Shaman]

QUOTE (jonny b @ May 23 2008, 12:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok sorry for the double post but another thought occurs to me, that I have had alot of personal experience with.I know there are many others with the same experience as well.I have moved into places,and "nothing", it is calm, there is no real energy in there but my own,and then there has been places I have lived in that seem to have some sort of residual negative energy, "that I assume was spawned by someone who has lived there before me".I am very good at picking up on emotional imprints both from the past and directly off of other people in real time.So If I go into a place and feel a strong energy of emotions such as anger or sadness,or any other states of turmoil,I was thinking this is exactly something that could be explained by what we are talking about here.

It could, but there may also be environmental factors involved. Others are looking more into that, I see posts anyway referring to subsoil and such, or limestone deposits, etc. I assume they are not talking to sound as if they know anything, but are actually pursuing this.

I also think it could depend on when the negative got imprinted and for how long and by whom. I was a cop and so often had to go in on unattended deaths/found body calls (often as compared to the odds of regular folks finding one). In more than half the cases, there was no sense of the personality or I had to look for it as it was so faint upon separation from the body. The majority were like that, even at fresh (1 to 24 hours after)suicide scenes.

However, I had one remarkable man who I found when friends complained he'd not answered his phone or taken in his papers for three days and had not said he was going anywhere. At first, he was really wary, suspicious as I had to go through his things, seeking legal ID and to secure any blatant valuables before calling in the morgue team. No question about EMS, the man was DAID. No evidence of anything but natural causes. However, in such cases I considered the investigation and report to be something of the last thing I can do for them, telling the story for their loved ones to read if they pull the report.

I explained this as I worked in the small condo to him, and he relaxed more and in the end we really enjoyed each other. I would have liked this fellow had we met before his death. He had a rich sense of humor. It was mutual. I was almost sorry when I heard the elevator ding, signalling the arrival four hours later of the morgue team. I'd told him they were coming, and he knew, but before they entered I heard him tell me "Thanks for being my last new friend here." I was startled all to heck, but told him that may be the highest compliment I have ever gotten, and that I wish I'd known him before we'd met this way. He'd have been good fun to run with. He smiled. I could feel the smile.

I know that remains a cheerful, calm condo for rent down there on the beach, even if he is hanging about enjoying his vacation still. Given that the sense of his presence dissipated almost immediately with the removal of his body, I don't know if he is. I did not go back and never allowed myself to dwell on the sometimes rough aspects of the job.

I'm rambling too much. Anyway, point being that John was way kewl and a very caring, but lonely person. He'd never mean any hurt to anyone. Others are different and they hold the potential to be stronger spirits as he was, or weaker as the majority were. John was not a tulpa and he did not live there, so there was nothing like that lingering on much past his departure from the rental.

But, I learned the hard way with the house from heck I owned for a while. You'd not believe the story about that place, gentle reader. I'm glad it is gone out of my life, now. I still don't believe it myself. I have pictures of the exterior and if you're sensitive, you will feel it. I failed to get it all out. Some things just are foundation deep. *shakes head*

Poeple have this happen all the, time and they themselves preform rituals to cleanse a place, such as a blessing of the home or smudding sage, etc.etc.Not that these energies are full blown entities or anything,but more of a low level tulpa or egregor.Again this could also be that these emotional states get caught er trapped in time or embedding in a spacific place, where it just seems to stew.people could unknowingly add to the negativity making it stronger if say they just had a crapy day and they are in a bad mood,and so on and on.Then eventually that imprint may grow till it seems to be uncontrollable.

You are well onto the trail . I added emphasis where needed. My house from heck fit that totally. Worst house for me possible, and biggest mistake I ever made was living in it for any length of time at all.

anyways just kinda thinking about this some more and thought I would share.

Thank you so much for doing that. It's why I am talking about this stuff at all and it helps me, too.

NS

[jonny b]

Hey NP and thank you for sharing as well.I would aslo like to add that chatting face to face someday about this would be really cool,and I can respect you not wanting to talk about certain things..

Anyways, I did want to add that also positive experiences could be played out in this way.Such as hearing children playing or laughing or even getting that positive vibe off a place,but I had to run really quick and had to stop typeing,hehe.

There was one place I lived in for a while and no matter what,I would not go into the attic.Every time the attic got even mentioned,the mood of the entire house changed.There were some people that lived there before me,alot of differant people who seemed to come and go.I was told that 2 of them wrote spells down on the walls and painted over them, and a short time afterwards, one of them went crazy and tried to stab the other one.Well I don't know if any of this were true, however even if it was, it didn't bother me.There was a negitive energy in the house though that seemed to come and go,and it would effect all 4 people that lived there at the time.The only thing that truely bothered me was the room I moved into which was painted red.I would wake up with a raging headache every morning so after about 2 weeks of this I repainted the room so it looked like the sky, sorta marbled effect using a sponge.Blue with nice white clouds,and walla my headaches went away,lol.It was a really old house, and there was a tilt to it as well.you could set a marble on the floor and it would roll to one side,lol and it still had cloth wireing "which always scared me",and it still had the pipes from when it had gas that powered the lights.It was an old house to say the least.

So as long as No one tried getting into the attic everything seemed fine, but from time to time people would tend to be angry for some reason like out of the blue.This actually happened to me once there,but I recognized it right off the bat and even discussed it with another person there and felt like that negitive emotion had seemed to have been generated from an outside source,like it was just in the air.I am not comparing this to a spirit or demon,which I have had experiences with, but what just seems to be a negative emotional imprint that was in the house maybe even left by multiple people.I actually felt the energy once while someone was mad, and I out right asked the person,"why are you angry", and they could not give me a reasonable explanation,that person had no idea why.I thought it was because that person was feeling what I was feeling, that was in the air in that house, but couldn't recognize it like I could, and it overwhelmed them at the time.Mind you the attic had come up in a conversation right before that.I never did bother with that house to much,and it never really bothered me, and eventually I moved out after 2 years and right into a place that had a full blown polterghiest.

Way to upgrade eh?lol

[Radian]

I also think it could depend on when the negative got imprinted and for how long and by whom. I was a cop and so often had to go in on unattended deaths/found body calls (often as compared to the odds of regular folks finding one). In more than half the cases, there was no sense of the personality or I had to look for it as it was so faint upon separation from the body. The majority were like that, even at fresh (1 to 24 hours after)suicide scenes.

NS

Interesting thread NS!

"more than half" I agree, I've experienced the personality after reviewing/analyzing the scene going home and in my sleep have them talk to me- show me things. One thing that I've been able to notice is those that do this I have automatically been able to connect in a small way with them from the beginning- can't honestly say what or why..& they all have usually succumb to violent deaths and/or were accidents very young at the time of their death. I wonder about their (peace), about their travel in that realm. Does that mean they stay and haunt forever, NO, I'm not saying that. I am saying that I think sometimes they do tell their tale, and are intelligent enough to know what has occurred to them.

I believe some of these evps *may be captures of past emotions/energies, but I don't believe all are.

[Nile_Shaman]

QUOTE (jonny b @ May 23 2008, 04:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Anyways, I did want to add that also positive experiences could be played out in this way.Such as hearing children playing or laughing or even getting that positive vibe off a place

Yeah, an example of this more of us can relate to was in the GH show that investigated that house at Wright-Patt. They got some EVPs of kids laughing, signs of ebergy still at play there and I vaguely recall someone saying on the show how sad all those kids died or similar.

There was no evidence all those kids died there. Zero. The place emanates "happy". Even over the computer and youtube. This is an example of something else going on entirely, IMO.

There was one place I lived in for a while and no matter what,I would not go into the attic.

Unless you are the type of person who is always having these irrational dreads of places (speaking generally, not about you!), then this sense, when it comes, is for a reason, IMO. It's good you stayed out of there. ME? I'd probably be up there evicting it about the second time I seriously suspected it was bothering with me and my business in my part of the house. But, then, I am familiar with this sort of thing and have a short fuse when my own space is involved.

So as long as No one tried getting into the attic everything seemed fine, but from time to time people would tend to be angry for some reason like out of the blue.This actually happened to me once there,but I recognized it right off the bat and even discussed it with another person there and felt like that negitive emotion had seemed to have been generated from an outside source,like it was just in the air.I am not comparing this to a spirit or demon,which I have had experiences with, but what just seems to be a negative emotional imprint

Maybe, maybe not. I had a similar experience once. It was a hot day and we had the back sliding glass door open for the breeze and my Mom and I were in the kitchen. I was washing dishes and she was cooking at the stove in a townhouse we lived in then. Typical 2 story deal. It was a happy house but behind it was a small trailer park where it was always drama, drug busts, domestic violence going on. Anyway, Mom said something totally innocuous, and all of a sudden I literally felt as if something had jumped on my back and was hanging onto my shoulders. I found it hard to breathe, hot and sickish inside and as if my vision blurred and all I saw was the knife in my hands I was washing, and all I felt emotionally was raw hatred towards her and clear as a bell was the thought I could just stab her dead.

I threw the knife back into the water and walked away, shaking my shoulders hard and praying and invoking St Michael. I felt the weight leave fast, and "saw" in my mind's eye a monkey looking thing with a nasty face lurching out the back door as a flash of light struck it and it vanished with a scream. This happened from start to finish in under a minute. It was the most hideous thing I'd seen to that time, and certainly what it had tried to interject against all my own self and normal feelings was even worse. I have seen them since then in different places. I call them "gremlins" for lack of a better word.

Is it really a creature, as in a lesser demon? Or is it massed negativity floating about witlessly we simply apply an image to subconciously in the natural organization of the brain to define, always define? I have my own ideas about that, and part of the source for the troubles behind my house then. Not everything is a tulpa. Not a trace of that attack came from me or anything i have EVER felt toward my Mother. That happened over a decade ago and hasn't happened again. But, I have seen them maybe four or five times skulking about places, and always there is some kind of active trauma or great emotional strife related to the areas they skulk in.

eventually I moved out after 2 years and right into a place that had a full blown polterghiest.

Way to upgrade eh?lol

Yeah. It may be a good thing that you are seeking to learn more about this sort of thing if you tend to attract it or be drawn to places of activity .

NS

[jonny b]

Yes I do tend to attrack all sorts of crazy energy,and alot of it comes from other people.As I have said there are times I can walk into a place and feel the energy, weather it is positive or negative.Same thing goes for people, and I tend to be a magnet for people with all sorts of either problems:which I am always glad to lend a hand" or people who see something that they want to try and take from me either consiously or unconsiously.There are certain people I don't even want touching me because of the energy they have around them, and in most cases I will ask that person not to touch me, but always in a manner that is not rude.That is unless there is something really wrong with them.Like there are just certain people that one comes across in life and you get that vibe off of them, like they have done something horrible in life and you can generally sence that they are dangerous, or that there is something not right about them.

Thankfully "knock on wood", the last few places I have lived have been free of any kind of external energies.Just mine, my wife,and my awsome dog.Well with the exception of this apt. here right now,But I do not believe it is connected to the building.A while back, I was getting the sensation of some entity here,and as soon as I said something out loud to my wife about it, it disappeared.Very strange and it seemed very random, but this sort of thing has happened alot in my past, including the times my relatives have died.Almost like there is something around me that I can not seem to put my finger on that is telling me something serious has happened.

I have had so many experiences it's not even funny.Even alot of the building that I have worked in have been haunted.There was a resturant that I worked in that was, but personally I do not know if it was the whole block, the resturant or the theater behind that place that the haunt was connected to.There is a theater right behind the resturant that is actually listed as being one of the most haunted places in seattle.I can believe it as every night I would walk past it,and say to myself"man that place has the craziest energy comming off of it, especially the basement".Anyways the two buildings are litterally 3 feet away from one another, and I have been standing in the kitchen and seen a door "very heavy" unbolt itself, open up all tha way, screen door open all the way,close, then the door close and bolt itself.LOL seriously, and just a bunch of other really random almost trickster kind of stuff happening.Like dishes being knocked over for no reason or light switches turnning themselves off, and mostly when it was empty at night you could hear footsteps all the time.Even right in the middle of the business of it all though, I would get that death chill to the core of my bones and violently shake for a second.It always started at the base of my neck and just went through me.

I just could never figure out though what building these things were tied to though, or if it was all of them,but then again I never studied the history behing these buildings either to see if they were onces connected.

Ok I just went and googled it and I found this site with a picture of the theater, and the resturant I worked in is right next to it,infact that dumpster there is the resturants dumpster.Anyways, Interesting how they said they identified spirits and a thought form.

http://www.hauntedhouses.com/states/wa/har...xit_theater.cfm

[Nile_Shaman]

Hey, thanks for that link, it was a lot of fun to study the pic, get my sense of what was going on, then read their findings. Some jived, some did not, but it was fun anyway.

I appreciate you sharing some of your feelings and experiences. It is dangerous to talk about some of them, because it risks mockery or being thought a fool, but for those who experience it, they really do need to know that they're not alone. I'm glad an array of odd experiences have been shared here, and I hope others feel safer to share their's as well.

I think some is death related/ghosts and a lot is not, and it behooves us to know what we share space with here, IMO.

The truth IS stranger than fiction.

NS

[jonny b]

Yeah NP, I thought it was cool to find a picture of the place, and anything else there was a bonus I guess.Not sure who the psychics or paranormal investigators were that were mentioned, but very interesting to say the least.

I agree with you, but for me personally I am ok with people thinking what ever they want of me,hehe.If there is one thing I can do though, which is share with others,so that they may compare and feel like they have someone who does understand what they have gone through,I am all for it.

Heck I have even seen a huge ufo over the pugit sound in broad daylight with a bunch of other witnesses.I can not explain it,and I do not know what it's origins were from, and never saw anything about it in the media.However I recently met a guy who saw the exact same craft that day from another vantage point 16 years later, which was really cool, for both of us, as it sorta gave us both a bit of validation"which I suspect he needed it more than I" none the less we were a bit tripped out when we realized we were talking about the same incident.

I do agree though that people are taking a chance by revealing these kinds of thing to others and there is a serious risk, especially if you have a certain kind of job or hold a certain spot in a community where you are suppost to be a profesional.Such as a pilot, police,doctor,etc,etc.Talking about these subjects can ruin a person to an extent, or be deemed crazy by others.I don't really like to use the word crazy though as I think it is just very dismissive without even trying to get all the facts.