Why doesn't God help?

[+Link of Hyrule]

Now prayer and miracles should occur daily all around the globe and by the millions--stupifying scientists and skeptics--and proving Christianity as “the” true religion. But it doesn’t, even though Jesus stated otherwise ... And please do not respond with the standard ad hoc "out of context" nonsense!

*snip for brevity*

Never worked for me--nor anybody that I know. And, as mentioned above, the prayer of the faithful should be answered. This world should be a utopia ... but it is not!

Miracles are nothing but emotions based on faith. God does not help--at least the pathetic deities humans have created--because he is fiction.

Most kindly,

Sean

Unfortunately, I must respond with the standard ad hoc "out of context" nonsense. I addressed these quotes of yours in another post - here. Naturally we disagree with each other (no surprises there, my friend ). I think the passages, once you read them in the context of the verses they were written, clearly show that they are not necessarily saying everything will be answered "yes, you are miraculously granted your wish".

However, I'm not saying that prayer is useless, or that prayer is not helpful, or that prayer won't work. I believe that all prayers are answered. Prayer is a very important part of my life as a Christian. I just don't necessarily believe prayers are all answered positively with "yes, miraculously you will get what you asked for", nor do I think the Bible supports this view. I think the passages you have taken here are grossly out of context, and I'm sorry that you don't think context is important.

That said, if you disagree with me, and think the passages are clear-cut, then I would be more than happy to read your interpretation - just quote the verses around the passage, tell me what that is talking about, and then tell me how God answering prayer is contextually relevant - and no "the passage speaks for itself" answers, please. Then if we still disagree, at least I can accept that you have made contextual understanding of the verse. Thanks for your time

~ PA

Edited June 10, 2008 by Paranoid Android

[Leonardo]

That said, if you disagree with me, and think the passages are clear-cut, then I would be more than happy to read your interpretation - just quote the verses around the passage, tell me what that is talking about, and then tell me how God answering prayer is contextually relevant...

Mark 11:

11: And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.

12: And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:

13: And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.

14: And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

15: And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;

16: And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.

17: And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.

18: And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.

19: And when even was come, he went out of the city.

20: And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.

21: And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.

22: And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

23: For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

24: Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

25: And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

26: But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

My interpretation:

Jesus was hungry, went to a fig tree out of the season. Surprise, no figs. Curses fig tree - forever!

Goes to the temple. Chucks out the shysters, who are a bit p*ssed.

Pass by the fig tree, now dead. Peter remarks "Gor blimey! Look at that boss!"

Jesus says "Yep. You have faith in the LORD and pray for stuff and it happens."

What you are implying, PA, by quoting "context" is not context at all. You are implying those for whom prayer does not fulfill the need, want or desire ARE NOT BELIEVERS. This is not context, but a rather subjective, and I must say in my mind arrogant, opinion. Just my opinion of course.

Jesus says, "If you believe, what you want will happen". This is very clear from the line Sean quoted within the context of the surrounding verse.

[+Link of Hyrule]

Fair enough, Leo. I do agree that my interpretation of Mark 11 may not be absolutely correct (it is based on prophesy from Zechariah 14, of course). But let us say for a moment that I am wrong. Before reading up on Zechariah 14, my opinion of this passage hinged on verse 23, which read: "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. *emphasis added*. The question is can anyone ever ask a mountain to throw itself in the sea and not have the least bit of doubt?

Not to be picky, but Mark 11 (and Matthew 21:21) are the easiest to refute, particularly if you don't take the prophecy of Zechariah 14 into consideration.

But thank you anyway What about the other six references - Matthew 7:7; Matthew 17:20; Matthew 21:21; John 14:12-14; Matthew 18:19; James 5:15-16. For Matthew 7:7, I would also ask that you examine the parallel account in Luke 11, for it has an extra sentence which I think helps clarify the meaning. Thanks,

[Leonardo]

Fair enough, Leo. I do agree that my interpretation of Mark 11 may not be absolutely correct (it is based on prophesy from Zechariah 14, of course). But let us say for a moment that I am wrong. Before reading up on Zechariah 14, my opinion of this passage hinged on verse 23, which read: "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. *emphasis added*. The question is can anyone ever ask a mountain to throw itself in the sea and not have the least bit of doubt?

Not to be picky, but Mark 11 (and Matthew 21:21) are the easiest to refute, particularly if you don't take the prophecy of Zechariah 14 into consideration.

But thank you anyway What about the other six references - Matthew 7:7; Matthew 17:20; Matthew 21:21; John 14:12-14; Matthew 18:19; James 5:15-16. For Matthew 7:7, I would also ask that you examine the parallel account in Luke 11, for it has an extra sentence which I think helps clarify the meaning. Thanks,

My reply would be then, what use describing what a true believer can achieve if the interpretation and the belief is there are no true believers? Are we then to believe that only Jesus had true belief and we (mere humans that we are) are incapable of achieving this?? To what end, then, is this belief uplifting and satisfying?

[Leonardo]

Just to add, I see no relevance in Zechariah 14 to the passage in Mark 11. There may be a weak link in the meaning of the two verses you quoted...at a stretch, but does not the linking of these two passages for one to give or add meaning (by a believer) to the other not vindicate my point in another thread about belief being inextricably linked to context (from the pov of a believer)? A response to which you posted here.

Edited June 10, 2008 by Leonardo

[+Link of Hyrule]

As I said, I am just showing my point of view on this passage. Since you have tried looking at this in context, thank you. That is still only 1-out-of-7 quoted. I might add it is also the easiest of the seven to look at from the point of view of a non-believer. The others have clear contexts (eg, Matthew 7, and moreso the parallel account in Luke 11) speaks of meeting our spiritual needs (How much more will the Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask?, says Luke). As I said, I'm quite happy to look at your different views, but so far you ahve only looked at one (I'm not saying this to go against you, I do thank you for what you have done).

All the best, Leo.

[Devol]

As usual, my efforts seem to bear no lasting affect. Splendid. Take care, all.

[crazyrichie]

I do not know what is the best for you but I will tell you about my path.

To open the doorway. You must be ignorant.

Yes. what did he say? Ignorant.

Ignorance IS bliss!! (in the sense of clear the mind in the present)

it WILL open the door to the true godess.

Praying helps only if you let go of yourself.

People pray when they are sad, when their mind is blurred with negative emotion. Clear that first.

I have no clue how others operate their vessel. But i do know what has cured me, with the help of my teachers if i may add. thanks guys

They have helped me to remember my TRUE heritage as I remember now how I was as a kid. I am.... REBORN AGAIN

If i let go of thoughts. Let go of commands that are sent to my peripheral nerve system.

I am allowing all that is true to take over. no addiction or form of manipulation can stand a chance.

Yes the evils which are fading were incredibly strong. But now that i know the truth...

Well... infinity cannot be beaten by the number 100000000000000000000000. that idea.

But without the sight, you are lost in their trap.

other animals on this planet can act as a guide to see how nature has intended life to flourish.

Forget what you have learned. Instead feel what is right and wrong (the sight of the wizard)

if god would just be here and sit on a throne, freely available to everyone in the physical world.

Then there would be no true life, atleast not how we have to deal with it the way it was given. What if god had made... eeee not relevant. Focus on what is. We would depend on GOD for everything and this would destroy the phurpose of meaning. It's called free will. And it is not free this way. Yes god would never treat you the way the global elite treats you now. I know but the principle itself (slowly over time and over the generations) destroys free will. Ironically this is not far from the real truth but GOD cannot be found the way you think she can be found. She can only be accessed if you give in to her grace and let go of yourself. It is where the true bliss is and where true manifestation is born. the TRUE PATH.

HEAL YOURSELF!

When you are enlightened, as the people like to call it, you will heal your body and soul step by step.

Do not blame god for not helping you the way you want it. Do not wait for the miracle, you are the miracle (yes this comes from bruce almighty but it is another shard of the emerald i am respectfully incorporating in my own character). I never consolidate the work of the false prophet. Well... i try to using my key that unlocks the door of light.

Do not let the ego consciousness speak. Let the heart govern your path.

Power will be born from wisdom. Show the divine you can handle your heritage. Be modest and true justice over your own body and soul. If your intent is true you can capture the hearts of others. Share and create love.

Wisdom

Power

Courage

(The shard of Zelda)

Sight

Balance

Willpower

What this man does is wrong. No doubt. Its the parth of the false prophet.

The kid should explore the world for herself as was intended.

Let her walk her own path, she will find out her own way. Let her grow on her own. It is not the way and you know it is not.

Guide when your heart feels so.

Becoming angry is the most obvious choice for most. But remember there are powers behind the curtains that are ABSOLUTE in this reality. It is how it was made to be. yoda was speaking the truth. Ridiculous? only in YOUR MIND. FEEEEEEL THE TRUTH. there are truths in everything. Movies, music, books. REAL ART IS BORN FROM TRUE PASSION!! (Nonsense? -> lost sheep)

I really hope you FEEEEEEL these words the way i want you to feel them. I am not the bad guy. Dont shove the shards of the emerald off the table. Instead analize them. NO MATTER HOW FARFETCHED THEY SEEM!!! What is one hour of trying in a whole lifetime? think about it. Im sure you can miss one of the repetitive,brainwashing shows on the tele to try it the other way. If you dont like it, then go on with your life the way you want it to. I WILL NEVER FORCE ANYTHING ON OTHERS. I ONLY SHOW THE WAY.

Evil has the phurpose to remind you what is good.

When you find the middle path of her divinity... there is NOTHING You cannot manifest. But only if your thoughts are... PURE and untainted.

If you give in to evil, you create an evil environment both internally and externally. (bollox? your choice I am free and you could be too)

Collect the shards and form the crystal of pure untainted essence that governs all. Her love is INFINITE.

*I have exiled myself as i knew the people were taught to ridicule good behaviour. IT IS NO SIN. ACCEPT IT. CONQUER YOUR HERITAGE MY FRIEND. Let go of the past and live in the present*

if peace is what you want. take the first step. I will always hold your hand. For i have given my life for Her grace. and i will do it as long as she wants me to.

Collect the shards by judging with passion. With the heart if you will. And form a bright crystal of illumination, adding shards every day to come.

I cannot say this enough times. There are GOOOD hidden messages in so many pieces of art. But, unfortunately there is a lot of false information too.

Believe in yourself. You are a godess only if you allow it to be. If you walk the same path as me, you will understand. You are amazing, just lost in a world based on ancient evil 'hacks' with the sole intent to create misery for the many and to feed the endless greed for the few.

When you are free, then you dont really need to seek for answers. The answers shall find you. Magnificent majestic magica.

"Hidden in dark corners the pure owls shepherd the lost though the valley of darkness onto the mountain of light."