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Lt_Ripley

Bush was not "forthright" on Iraq says

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AROCES
You have a point. When we speak of Bush it should be in conspiracies. When we speak of those who endorse his insanity, it should be in fairy tales.

YES! You finally got it! :tu:

When YOU speak of Bush it's all conspiracies and hocus focus alright.

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AROCES
first off - resolution 17 has nothing to do with Iraq.

here is the fact short and simple for you to understand.

On 8 November 2002, the Security Council passed Resolution 1441 by a unanimous 15 to 0 vote, which included Russia, China and France, and Arab countries, such as Syria. This gave this resolution wider support than even the 1990 Gulf War resolution. Although the Iraqi parliament voted against honoring the UN resolution, Iraqi President Saddam Hussein over-ruled them.[citation needed]

While some politicians have argued that the resolution could authorize war under certain circumstances, the representatives in the meeting were clear that this was not the case. The ambassador for the United States, John Negroponte, said:

“ [T]his resolution contains no "hidden triggers" and no "automaticity" with respect to the use of force. If there is a further Iraqi breach, reported to the Council by UNMOVIC, the IAEA or a Member State, the matter will return to the Council for discussions as required in paragraph 12.[2] ”

The ambassador for the United Kingdom, the co-sponsor of the resolution, said:

“ We heard loud and clear during the negotiations the concerns about "automaticity" and "hidden triggers" -- the concern that on a decision so crucial we should not rush into military action; that on a decision so crucial any Iraqi violations should be discussed by the Council. Let me be equally clear in response... There is no "automaticity" in this resolution. If there is a further Iraqi breach of its disarmament obligations, the matter will return to the Council for discussion as required in paragraph 12. We would expect the Security Council then to meet its responsibilities.[3] ”

The message was further confirmed by the ambassador for Syria:

“ Syria voted in favour of the resolution, having received reassurances from its sponsors, the United States of America and the United Kingdom, and from France and Russia through high-level contacts, that it would not be used as a pretext for striking against Iraq and does not constitute a basis for any automatic strikes against Iraq. The resolution should not be interpreted, through certain paragraphs, as authorizing any State to use force. It reaffirms the central role of the Security Council in addressing all phases of the Iraqi issue.[4]

Published on Friday, March 5, 2004 by the lndependent/UK

Blix: Iraq War Was Illegal

Blair's defense is bogus, says the former UN weapons inspector

by Anne Penketh in Stockholm and Andrew Grice

The former chief UN weapons inspector Hans Blix has declared that the war in Iraq was illegal, dealing another devastating blow to Tony Blair.

Mr Blix, speaking to The Independent, said the Attorney General's legal advice to the Government on the eve of war, giving cover for military action by the US and Britain, had no lawful justification. He said it would have required a second United Nations resolution explicitly authorizing the use of force for the invasion of Iraq last March to have been legal.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0305-01.htm

this is fact --- you believe in Fiction. ( not to mention all Bushs' yes men are ratting him out by telling the truth)

Any statement from the United Nations during the Kofi Anan era is now questionable on it's motive because of the Oil for Food Corruption.

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AROCES
And what did the Bush bunch rely on? How many ex-security personnel testified that they were pressured to submit the type of intelligence the administration wanted? If the Iraqi weapons report had not been mutilated, would it have been discovered that the WMDs did not exist? Would any of these options have been better than blindly attacking a nation that was not associated with terrorism . . . all in the name of the war against terror?

And where were all these people who knows better when the House of Representatives and Senate was about to vote for military action?

Well????

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Dr. D
And you prefer to do nothing to a Tyrant like Saddam for it was nice and quiet, Saddam simply bury everyone in a mass graves without anyone knowing and obvioulsy your prefer that than seeing those oppress giving it a fight for now you see death instead of being it concealed on mass graves.

Like you said, you see it like a movie.

Let’s set the record straight. When the weapons declaration report was received by U.N. members in December of 2002, the Bush mob was quick to shout that it was “incomplete.”

As I have stated here on several occasions and the point has been generally ignored, the report was “incomplete” because the U.S. deleted 8,000 pages of the 11,800 page document. It was later learned that the missing pages listed 24 U.S. corporations as well as the Reagan and Bush administrations as being illegal suppliers of weapons of mass destruction to Saddam Hussein and giving training on their use.

Now neocons want to declare that Hussein was a ruthless dictator and a mass murderer. When someone is in a fight and you hand him a pistol, your message is very clear. When the Bush administration supplied Hussein with the weapons used to exterminate thousands of Iranians and Iraqi dissidents, he became an accomplice.

Those who now distort those facts and want to declare that this illegal invasion of Iraq is justified to eliminate a dictator become equal accomplices to the deaths of thousands of innocents.

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Dr. D
And where were all these people who knows better when the House of Representatives and Senate was about to vote for military action?

Well????

Wrong. They did not vote for military action. They voted to give the president the power to take military action IF SADDAM HUSSEIN DID NOT COMPLY WITH THE U.N. MANDATE. By all current information, Hussein did so comply and Bush INDEPENDENTLY ignored that fact and ordered an invasion.

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Dr. D
YES! You finally got it! :tu:

When YOU speak of Bush it's all conspiracies and hocus focus alright.

Tell than to the 75% of thinking Americans who recognize this idiot as the incompetent fool he really is.

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AROCES
Tell than to the 75% of thinking Americans who recognize this idiot as the incompetent fool he really is.

They have the same opinion of the Democrat controlled Congress, actually worst.

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AROCES
Wrong. They did not vote for military action. They voted to give the president the power to take military action IF SADDAM HUSSEIN DID NOT COMPLY WITH THE U.N. MANDATE. By all current information, Hussein did so comply and Bush INDEPENDENTLY ignored that fact and ordered an invasion.

And they all simply watched????

You can't really put a spin on it.

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muddpuppy
And they all simply watched????

You can't really put a spin on it.

Ok, I have read thru all of your posts....Where do you get YOUR information from? Where is the documentation thats proves you to be right? Most everyone here whom has posted has given you sources for their statements. Where's your sources?

IMO, I think your just a die-hard Bush fan, that refuses to see truth, even though it has been shown to you time and again. Either that, or you have ties to the Bush administration and are part of the problem.

Here's a GOOD question for you(albeit off subject)...What has Bush done that has benefited our country?

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The Gremlin
And they all simply watched????

You can't really put a spin on it.

thats exactly what they did....watched.

weeks and weeks before they declared war, warships and aircraft carriers made their way to the gulf, british navy too...the ball was rolling and no matter whether saddam complied or not, or how much citizens of uk and others protested, they were going in.

the rest of the world just watched it happen, with a few meek protesting voices here and there.

there was no way that the aggressors would fork out the cash to get the troops there, and keep them there on standby for ages while the political scene was set for nothing. no amount of protesting on the streets of london or washington would have made them turn around.

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Dr. D
They have the same opinion of the Democrat controlled Congress, actually worst.

A pretty weak defense of an idiot president.

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questionmark
A pretty weak defense of an idiot president.

Now, quit hacking on Dubya...not his fault that he got bathed too warm as baby!

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Dr. D
Now, quit hacking on Dubya...not his fault that he got bathed too warm as baby!

He's an embarrassment to all true Americans.

He is a threat to the rest of the world.

He is a criminal by any standard of international law.

He is incompetent as an executive of anything, much less a nation.

He is responsible for the America we lost and will probably never regain.

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Bill Hill

When someone is in a fight and you hand him a pistol, your message is very clear. When the Bush administration supplied Hussein with the weapons used to exterminate thousands of Iranians and Iraqi dissidents, he became an accomplice.

Yeah yeah yeah just the US...!?! Throw a rock in the air you'll hit someone guilty...

It's called Capitalism and market forces; you know the concept which allows you to live in Mexico (dirt cheap) paying for your cleaner and Gardener.

And creating Business paying dirt cheap wages.. :o

what's the logic again? If I didn't do it someone else would do it.

In the early 1970s, Saddam Hussein ordered the creation of a clandestine nuclear weapons program.[9] Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs were assisted by a wide variety of firms and governments in the 1970s and 1980s.[10][11][12][13][14] As part of Project 922, German firms such as Karl Kobe helped build Iraqi chemical weapons facilities such as laboratories, bunkers, an administrative building, and first production buildings in the early 1980s under the cover of a pesticide plant. Other German firms sent 1,027 tons of precursors of mustard gas, sarin, tabun, and tear gasses in all. This work allowed Iraq to produce 150 tons of mustard agent and 60 tons of Tabun in 1983 and 1984 respectively, continuing throughout the decade. Five other German firms supplied equipment to manufacture botulin toxin and mycotoxin for germ warfare. In 1988, German engineers presented centrifuge data that helped Iraq expand its nuclear weapons program. Laboratory equipment and other information was provided, involving many German engineers. All told, 52% of Iraq's international chemical weapon equipment was of German origin. The State Establishment for Pesticide Production (SEPP) ordered culture media and incubators from Germany's Water Engineering Trading.[15]

France built Iraq’s Osirak nuclear reactor in the late 1970s. Israel claimed that Iraq was getting close to building nuclear weapons, and so bombed it in 1981. Later, a French company built a turnkey factory which helped make nuclear fuel. France also provided glass-lined reactors, tanks, vessels, and columns used for the production of chemical weapons. Around 21% of Iraq’s international chemical weapon equipment was French. Strains of dual-use biological material also helped advance Iraq’s biological warfare program.

Italy gave Iraq plutonium extraction facilities that advanced Iraq’s nuclear weapon program. 75,000 shells and rockets designed for chemical weapon use also came from Italy. Between 1979 and 1982 Italy gave depleted, natural, and low-enriched uranium. Swiss companies aided in Iraq’s nuclear weapons development in the form of specialized presses, milling machines, grinding machines, electrical discharge machines, and equipment for processing uranium to nuclear weapon grade. Brazil secretly aided the Iraqi nuclear weapon program by supplying natural uranium dioxide between 1981 and 1982 without notifying the IAEA. About 100 tons of mustard gas also came from Brazil.

The United States exported $500 million of dual use exports to Iraq that were approved by the Commerce department. Among them were advanced computers, some of which were used in Iraq’s nuclear program. The non-profit American Type Culture Collection and the Centers for Disease Control sold or sent biological samples to Iraq under Saddam Hussein up until 1989, which Iraq claimed it needed for medical research. These materials included anthrax, West Nile virus and botulism, as well as Brucella melitensis, which damages major organs, and clostridium perfringens, which causes gas gangrene. Some of these materials were used for Iraq's biological weapons research program, while others were used for vaccine development.[16]

The United Kingdom paid for a chlorine factory that was intended to be used for manufacturing mustard gas.[17] The government secretly gave the arms company Matrix Churchill permission to supply parts for the Iraqi supergun, precipitating the Arms-to-Iraq affair when it became known.

Many other countries contributed as well; since Iraq's nuclear program in the early 1980s was officially viewed internationally as for power production, not weapons, there were no UN prohibitions against it. An Austrian company gave Iraq calutrons for enriching uranium. The nation also provided heat exchangers, tanks, condensers, and columns for the Iraqi chemical weapons infrastructure, 16% of the international sales. Singapore gave 4,515 tons of precursors for VX, sarin, tabun, and mustard gasses to Iraq. The Dutch gave 4,261 tons of precursors for sarin, tabun, mustard, and tear gasses to Iraq. Egypt gave 2,400 tons of tabun and sarin precursors to Iraq and 28,500 tons of weapons designed for carrying chemical munitions. India gave 2,343 tons of precursors to VX, tabun, Sarin, and mustard gasses. Luxembourg gave Iraq 650 tons of mustard gas precursors. Spain gave Iraq 57,500 munitions designed for carrying chemical weapons. In addition, they provided reactors, condensers, columns and tanks for Iraq’s chemical warfare program, 4.4% of the international sales. China provided 45,000 munitions designed for chemical warfare. Portugal provided yellowcake between 1980 and 1982. Niger provided yellowcake in 1981.[18]

link

Edited by Bill Hill

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Dr. D
Yeah yeah yeah just the US...!?! Throw a rock in the air you'll hit someone guilty...

It's called Capitalism and market forces; you know the concept which allows you to live in Mexico (dirt cheap) paying for your cleaner and Gardener.

And creating Business paying dirt cheap wages.. :o

what's the logic again? If I didn't do it someone else would do it.

In the early 1970s, Saddam Hussein ordered the creation of a clandestine nuclear weapons program.[9] Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs were assisted by a wide variety of firms and governments in the 1970s and 1980s.[10][11][12][13][14] As part of Project 922, German firms such as Karl Kobe helped build Iraqi chemical weapons facilities such as laboratories, bunkers, an administrative building, and first production buildings in the early 1980s under the cover of a pesticide plant. Other German firms sent 1,027 tons of precursors of mustard gas, sarin, tabun, and tear gasses in all. This work allowed Iraq to produce 150 tons of mustard agent and 60 tons of Tabun in 1983 and 1984 respectively, continuing throughout the decade. Five other German firms supplied equipment to manufacture botulin toxin and mycotoxin for germ warfare. In 1988, German engineers presented centrifuge data that helped Iraq expand its nuclear weapons program. Laboratory equipment and other information was provided, involving many German engineers. All told, 52% of Iraq's international chemical weapon equipment was of German origin. The State Establishment for Pesticide Production (SEPP) ordered culture media and incubators from Germany's Water Engineering Trading.[15]

France built Iraq’s Osirak nuclear reactor in the late 1970s. Israel claimed that Iraq was getting close to building nuclear weapons, and so bombed it in 1981. Later, a French company built a turnkey factory which helped make nuclear fuel. France also provided glass-lined reactors, tanks, vessels, and columns used for the production of chemical weapons. Around 21% of Iraq’s international chemical weapon equipment was French. Strains of dual-use biological material also helped advance Iraq’s biological warfare program.

Italy gave Iraq plutonium extraction facilities that advanced Iraq’s nuclear weapon program. 75,000 shells and rockets designed for chemical weapon use also came from Italy. Between 1979 and 1982 Italy gave depleted, natural, and low-enriched uranium. Swiss companies aided in Iraq’s nuclear weapons development in the form of specialized presses, milling machines, grinding machines, electrical discharge machines, and equipment for processing uranium to nuclear weapon grade. Brazil secretly aided the Iraqi nuclear weapon program by supplying natural uranium dioxide between 1981 and 1982 without notifying the IAEA. About 100 tons of mustard gas also came from Brazil.

The United States exported $500 million of dual use exports to Iraq that were approved by the Commerce department. Among them were advanced computers, some of which were used in Iraq’s nuclear program. The non-profit American Type Culture Collection and the Centers for Disease Control sold or sent biological samples to Iraq under Saddam Hussein up until 1989, which Iraq claimed it needed for medical research. These materials included anthrax, West Nile virus and botulism, as well as Brucella melitensis, which damages major organs, and clostridium perfringens, which causes gas gangrene. Some of these materials were used for Iraq's biological weapons research program, while others were used for vaccine development.[16]

The United Kingdom paid for a chlorine factory that was intended to be used for manufacturing mustard gas.[17] The government secretly gave the arms company Matrix Churchill permission to supply parts for the Iraqi supergun, precipitating the Arms-to-Iraq affair when it became known.

Many other countries contributed as well; since Iraq's nuclear program in the early 1980s was officially viewed internationally as for power production, not weapons, there were no UN prohibitions against it. An Austrian company gave Iraq calutrons for enriching uranium. The nation also provided heat exchangers, tanks, condensers, and columns for the Iraqi chemical weapons infrastructure, 16% of the international sales. Singapore gave 4,515 tons of precursors for VX, sarin, tabun, and mustard gasses to Iraq. The Dutch gave 4,261 tons of precursors for sarin, tabun, mustard, and tear gasses to Iraq. Egypt gave 2,400 tons of tabun and sarin precursors to Iraq and 28,500 tons of weapons designed for carrying chemical munitions. India gave 2,343 tons of precursors to VX, tabun, Sarin, and mustard gasses. Luxembourg gave Iraq 650 tons of mustard gas precursors. Spain gave Iraq 57,500 munitions designed for carrying chemical weapons. In addition, they provided reactors, condensers, columns and tanks for Iraq’s chemical warfare program, 4.4% of the international sales. China provided 45,000 munitions designed for chemical warfare. Portugal provided yellowcake between 1980 and 1982. Niger provided yellowcake in 1981.[18]

link

While your logic about my personal life is lacking . . . there are many communist nations where I could live even cheaper, so it is not a question of capitalism.

Beyond that the logic fades even more. Now we encounter the typical Bu****e smoke and mirrors logic where it says "everyone was doing it, so . . . ." Why can't we then excuse Hussein for his genocides because, after all, it was done in other nations.

But everyone did not destroy a U.N. document to hide the truth.

None of the other nations had their navy monitoring Iraq and permitting oil shipments to pass unchecked.

The other nations were not later callling Hussein a murderous dictator and invading his nation and hunting him down and hanging him (none of that "Iraq hanged him," there was an army of U.S. military attorneys there to make sure it happened).

And wow, "it was approved by the Department of Commerce!" Isn't that a relief! And incredibly convincing! The last I knew, the Department of Commerce was a part of the U.S. Government that was responsible for supplying Hussein with the weapons they later condemned him for using.

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Bill Hill

While your logic about my personal life is lacking . . . there are many communist nations where I could live even cheaper, so it is not a question of capitalism.

I don't know you personally...I can only use your posts... your words. How close that is to the real person depends on how honest the poster is being.

Life is about watching for opportunities and accepting them to find personal satisfaction. In Chapala, Jalisco, Mexico, the very rich take advantage of a super luxurious settlement exclusively for gringos. I took advantage of a small village where I was immediately welcome and accepted.

I have started several businesses and never had a problem. You simply file for a corporation and have it signed and stamped by a notary. You then file with the Hacienda (Mexico's IRS) and you're in business.

The economy of Mexico is somewhat better than the rest of Latin America. The entire continent, however, is poor and always has been. Those conditions existed centuries before I arrived here and will exist long after I am gone. I am not responsible for those conditions and to suggest that they would be made better by my bringing U.S. economic standards here is absolute nonsense. The Mexican people understand that some Americans move southward to take advantge of that economy but because of it they also have jobs they would not have without the American.

Sound like opportunist capitalism to me...with the added 'If I didn't do it someone would.' logic.

I'm not even sure how you can refute it? :blink:

Beyond that the logic fades even more. Now we encounter the typical Bu****e smoke and mirrors logic where it says "everyone was doing it, so . . . ." Why can't we then excuse Hussein for his genocides because, after all, it was done in other nations.

er I thought that's exactly what you're doing; I thought that was your logic.

Excusing Saddam's personal responsibility. Did any of the Nations which sold him chemicals (which can be used as weapons) force him to use them on his people?

Just out of interest how would you have dealt with Saddam? Did you have a plan?

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Dr. D
I don't know you personally...I can only use your posts... your words. How close that is to the real person depends on how honest the poster is being.

Sound like opportunist capitalism to me...with the added 'If I didn't do it someone would.' logic.

I'm not even sure how you can refute it? :blink:

er I thought that's exactly what you're doing; I thought that was your logic.

Excusing Saddam's personal responsibility. Did any of the Nations which sold him chemicals (which can be used as weapons) force him to use them on his people?

Just out of interest how would you have dealt with Saddam? Did you have a plan?

The United States was the moving force for the formation of the U.N. and the regulations and standards for dealing with nations like Iraq under Hussein were insisted upon by U.S. delegates. Now we have an idiot breaking the very rules that were the mandate of the U.S. Do I have a plan? Yes. Permit the U.N. to handle international affairs and start realizing that the U.S. is not the god of all nations. It is not the enforcer of justice for all nations. It is not the mediator or the evaluator of other nations. It is simply a nation that should abide by the very principles that it demanded.

Incidentally, I have never said "If I didn't do it someone else would." That's the kind of innane comment a Bu****e would make. Again, my decision had nothing to do with capitalism and I could live much cheaper in Cuba, no matter how it sounds to you.

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AROCES
Ok, I have read thru all of your posts....Where do you get YOUR information from? Where is the documentation thats proves you to be right? Most everyone here whom has posted has given you sources for their statements. Where's your sources?

IMO, I think your just a die-hard Bush fan, that refuses to see truth, even though it has been shown to you time and again. Either that, or you have ties to the Bush administration and are part of the problem.

Here's a GOOD question for you(albeit off subject)...What has Bush done that has benefited our country?

Well, quite obvious you were salivating to the suppose to be evidence of Bush criminal acts posted here and then suddenly you see it get debunked and you finally decided to come to the rescue.

My source are right in front of you as it happened, my source are facts and things that are common sense, events that does that not support your evidence.

And here is a good question for you, what made you think I would waste my time telling something that Bush did thinking you will find it good. :blink:

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AROCES
thats exactly what they did....watched.

weeks and weeks before they declared war, warships and aircraft carriers made their way to the gulf, british navy too...the ball was rolling and no matter whether saddam complied or not, or how much citizens of uk and others protested, they were going in.

the rest of the world just watched it happen, with a few meek protesting voices here and there.

there was no way that the aggressors would fork out the cash to get the troops there, and keep them there on standby for ages while the political scene was set for nothing. no amount of protesting on the streets of london or washington would have made them turn around.

Of course that is standard Military procedure to be in position and ready to go.

You folks keep ignoring and have to ignore the fact that 2 years were given FOR ANYONE TO AVOID A MILITARY ACTION.

Saddam, The UN , Hans blix, all those who are acting like heroes now that they knew there was no WMD were given 2 years to say so before we move in.

2 YEARS and not one was brave enough to say or declare that Saddam had no WMD and is not a threat anymore. The 30 other countries would have not supported the United States if someone had made an official annoncement or declaration..

Now you see why none of these genius matters now?

Edited by AROCES

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AROCES
He's an embarrassment to all true Americans.

He is a threat to the rest of the world.

He is a criminal by any standard of international law.

He is incompetent as an executive of anything, much less a nation.

He is responsible for the America we lost and will probably never regain.

Actually I think you simply were for Gore and Kerry.

I say get over it.

Edited by AROCES

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Cinders
Actually I think you simply were for Gore and Kerry.

I say get over it.

Ha! Well I guess we know who Acroces will be voting for in Nov 2008 - ie: McSame or is that McLame?

And if true, Acroces, it will be YOU that will be hearing "Get over it" ... well, that is unless we all have another RE-RUN of "RECOUNT"....

Any way,

From May 29th

Interesting interview with McClellan (14 minutes) and more found here

Around 8 minutes into the interview when he mentions BUSH and Plame as they were boarding the plane - I was like REALLY?...

All along, I really thought it was all Cheney's doing

May 30th - The Fallout... again, pretty interesting.. (8 minutes)

NO ONE should be surprised at any of this news...

If anything, it just affirms what we've known all along... *yawns*

Yea, and Bush changed Washington alright! :lol:

Edited by Cinders

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AROCES
Ha! Well I guess we know who Acroces will be voting for in Nov 2008 - ie: McSame or is that McLame?

And if true, Acroces, it will be YOU that will be hearing "Get over it" ... well, that is unless we all have another RE-RUN of "RECOUNT"....

Same with you, Gore lost 8 years ago so get over it

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merril

Nothing personal, but I listened to almost four minutes of this former Press Secretary Scott McClellan. Boring.

I suspect he is trying to cash in, and clear his own name (in his own self-interest). At the same time, I did not hear him do anything but walk a fine line...

We all know the numerous and pre-emptive reasonings (not overlooking the usual opportunists and vested interests and intel bs'ing). Even Scott Ritter wanted Iraq to have an internal revolt to overthrow Sadam- and turn him into the Hague. Sadam had his detractors in many areas, and they played up to Bush, who made this amalgamation of concerns known to the American people.

I guess if Iraq had recovered financially from the Iran war, and been left to themselves, and knowing the Husseins, I wonder. Where would things stand today?

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Cinders
Same with you, Gore lost 8 years ago so get over it

I'll be singing the same to ya' soon ... just wait.. :lol:

Edited by Cinders

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Dr. D
Actually I think you simply were for Gore and Kerry.

I say get over it.

I have been FOR no one but I will always be against someone like Curious George who has destroyed the American way of life.

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