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Lt_Ripley

Bush was not "forthright" on Iraq says

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The Gremlin
Of course that is standard Military procedure to be in position and ready to go.

You folks keep ignoring and have to ignore the fact that 2 years were given FOR ANYONE TO AVOID A MILITARY ACTION.

Saddam, The UN , Hans blix, all those who are acting like heroes now that they knew there was no WMD were given 2 years to say so before we move in.

2 YEARS and not one was brave enough to say or declare that Saddam had no WMD and is not a threat anymore. The 30 other countries would have not supported the United States if someone had made an official annoncement or declaration..

Now you see why none of these genius matters now?

what i said still stands. I agree that it is SOP to be in place and ready.

I think you have mistakenly got me pegged as someone with a 'political angle' on this.

The aggressors would have preferred the political scene setting to have gone accordingly to their requirements....it didnt quite achieve this, but they were able to cover their behinds using 'intelligence' that everyone now recognises as out of date and inaccurate to justify their decision....re: T.blairs announcement in the house of commons about 'new intelligence that Saddam could have arms away within 48hrs.'

The pretext that they were looking for was there...the fact that it didnt convince everyone didnt matter.

the lions were already in the arena. Thats the realpolitik, everything else is just waffle.

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AROCES
I'll be singing the same to ya' soon ... just wait.. :lol:

Sorry but you have to wait forever.

For I am not one of those who would cry like a baby, hanging chad!, they cheated!, bwahaha! :rolleyes:

If Obama wins, then on to the next election.

Besides if Obama wins and he is true to his words about his policies then I would say a reelection bid won't be in the bag.

Edited by AROCES

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AROCES
I have been FOR no one but I will always be against someone like Curious George who has destroyed the American way of life.

Fine, you are entitled to criticize the President., that is but normal.

But destroyed the american way of life??? Last I heard the American Idol was as popular as ever. ;)

Edited by AROCES

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AROCES
what i said still stands. I agree that it is SOP to be in place and ready.

I think you have mistakenly got me pegged as someone with a 'political angle' on this.

The aggressors would have preferred the political scene setting to have gone accordingly to their requirements....it didnt quite achieve this, but they were able to cover their behinds using 'intelligence' that everyone now recognises as out of date and inaccurate to justify their decision....re: T.blairs announcement in the house of commons about 'new intelligence that Saddam could have arms away within 48hrs.'

The pretext that they were looking for was there...the fact that it didnt convince everyone didnt matter.

the lions were already in the arena. Thats the realpolitik, everything else is just waffle.

Does not matter, if Saddam was not a threat 2 years were given to everyone to say so.

30 other countries were given the same intellignece, Bush could have simply planted a bomb and he is home free.

So all the talk after really is pointless since no matter what Bush have done 2 YEARS was given for everyone to do something to avoid a Military action.

I mean Hans Blix was given 2 years, all he could have done was OFFICIALLY declare there are no WMD and Iraq is not a threat anymore, and suggest to withdraw UN Resolution 17.

NOW THAT COULD HAVE PREVENTED THE WAR, think about it folks!

Edited by AROCES

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The Gremlin
Does not matter, if Saddam was not a threat 2 years were given to everyone to say so.

30 other countries were given the same intellignece, Bush could have simply planted a bomb and he is home free.

So all the talk after really is pointless since no matter what Bush have done 2 YEARS was given for everyone to do something to avoid a Military action.

I mean Hans Blix was given 2 years, all he could have done was OFFICIALLY declare there are no WMD and Iraq is not a threat anymore, and suggest to withdraw UN Resolution 17.

NOW THAT COULD HAVE PREVENTED THE WAR, think about it folks!

Indeed they appeared to obey the forms.

and what did blix conclude in his final report?

how does the 'new intelligence' that Saddam had a 48hr capability fit in with this? Since this was used as the pretext for war.

how soon before the first strike was this 'new intelligence' announced?

how reliable was it? who was responsible for it? was it verified?

I repeat, the pretext they were looking for was found.

They knew the source of this information, we now know that it was unreliable....they knew that then.

but the pretext they were looking for was found.

Edit: I beg your pardon, it wasnt 48hrs.....it was 45 minutes.

Edited by lil gremlin

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Dr. D
Fine, you are entitled to criticize the President., that is but normal.

But destroyed the american way of life??? Last I heard the American Idol was as popular as ever. ;)

I am not a conspiracy nut but George Bush manipulated and exploited 9/11 into a power play grander than any known to human history. He played the terror card to the point of fulfilling personal interests while never fulfilling his promises to the American people. He boosted oil to $130 a barrel (great for his oil family) and never came close to capturing the sibling of his friends . . . . the bin Ladens. His brother, meanwhile, catered and rubbed elbows with the Salinas family that almost bankrupted Mexico with their deceptions and frauds. Jeb had them in his Miami home for their vacations while he had his vacations on their ranch in Puebla.

The consequence of these offenses was to ignore domestic issues and watch the economy of the U.S. plummet as the costs of his personal war skyrocketed. 9/11 was used to control the people with the Patriot Act and all of its anti-Constitutional provisions. Protestors against Bush at his speeches were kept 400 yards from the site while those having signs supporting him were permitted to be at close range. People were detained for having t-shirts with anti-Bush messages. The American way of life permitted the expression of personal opinion in any form. The American way of life permitted a phone call without the government having the right to listen without a court order. The American way of life was largely founded upon the principle of the habeas corpus.

You're damned right, the village idiot played his power mad trump cards to change America forever.

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Last Salvation

If people truly fought for the truth we would all be able to live free. We the people have the right to rebel against bad governments. But instead we sit there and watch all this stuff and complain later. Yeah big help. They did this to us but we don't really care. Cause whos really doing anything to make sure these ******* pay. I can guarantee not y'all.

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Dr. D
If people truly fought for the truth we would all be able to live free. We the people have the right to rebel against bad governments. But instead we sit there and watch all this stuff and complain later. Yeah big help. They did this to us but we don't really care. Cause whos really doing anything to make sure these ******* pay. I can guarantee not y'all.

Agreed. And the real news is ignored . . . why did Georgie try to blackmail Latin American nations to vote against the International Criminal Court?

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Last Salvation

Look I am not going to bad mouth candidates or people views but McCain Is a little old man that if you breath on him your likely going to kill him. The man is so old I bet you he can't program a DVR or a Cell phone. Does he know what I Tunes is. The old man is like a fish flopping around trying to get back in the water. How much medication is he on so that he can get up in the morning. The man is a weak feeble once great solider. Can we finally have a warrior, a strong person that I can raise my head up to and be proud he runs my country. I vote Obama and this is why. I know that one day in that mans life he had to fight for everything he's got. Just because of the color of his skin. I know that he was spit on and laughed at. Instead of being like most uneducated blacks he became a self made millionaire. And he didn't do it through Entertainment or Sports. McCain is an American hero, and in saying that, was Superman ever president no he wasn't. Hero's are not politicians. If Obama was able to rise in the ranks from poverty for himself, imagine what he can do for us with our help. Old men have no spirit's, and a dieing old man can't relate to me can he relate to you, honestly.... He is at the age where he should be coming to peace with his mortality. Is he really going to be focused on 4 years of a already hurt country or fulfilling a dieing wish. By the way thats what baby bush did.

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bathory
and what did blix conclude in his final report?

a whole heap of if, buts and maybes

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AROCES
Indeed they appeared to obey the forms.

and what did blix conclude in his final report?

how does the 'new intelligence' that Saddam had a 48hr capability fit in with this? Since this was used as the pretext for war.

how soon before the first strike was this 'new intelligence' announced?

how reliable was it? who was responsible for it? was it verified?

I repeat, the pretext they were looking for was found.

They knew the source of this information, we now know that it was unreliable....they knew that then.

but the pretext they were looking for was found.

Edit: I beg your pardon, it wasnt 48hrs.....it was 45 minutes.

AGAIN, 2 years was given for all those barking and complaining NOW to come up with what they have. If Bush really just want a war, he could have just go at it ASAP, plant abomb and not give anyone a chance to stop him or verify there was no WMD.

It's a simple analysis really.

Edited by AROCES

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AROCES
Agreed. And the real news is ignored . . . why did Georgie try to blackmail Latin American nations to vote against the International Criminal Court?

Well, it got ignored because it is not real news.

You simply go it the other way around.. :tu:

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AROCES
If people truly fought for the truth we would all be able to live free. We the people have the right to rebel against bad governments. But instead we sit there and watch all this stuff and complain later. Yeah big help. They did this to us but we don't really care. Cause whos really doing anything to make sure these ******* pay. I can guarantee not y'all.

Well, most of us do live free. There are some of you who don't, until you get everything your way, right?

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AROCES
Look I am not going to bad mouth candidates or people views but McCain Is a little old man that if you breath on him your likely going to kill him. The man is so old I bet you he can't program a DVR or a Cell phone. Does he know what I Tunes is. The old man is like a fish flopping around trying to get back in the water. How much medication is he on so that he can get up in the morning. The man is a weak feeble once great solider. Can we finally have a warrior, a strong person that I can raise my head up to and be proud he runs my country. I vote Obama and this is why. I know that one day in that mans life he had to fight for everything he's got. Just because of the color of his skin. I know that he was spit on and laughed at. Instead of being like most uneducated blacks he became a self made millionaire. And he didn't do it through Entertainment or Sports. McCain is an American hero, and in saying that, was Superman ever president no he wasn't. Hero's are not politicians. If Obama was able to rise in the ranks from poverty for himself, imagine what he can do for us with our help. Old men have no spirit's, and a dieing old man can't relate to me can he relate to you, honestly.... He is at the age where he should be coming to peace with his mortality. Is he really going to be focused on 4 years of a already hurt country or fulfilling a dieing wish. By the way thats what baby bush did.

You ever listened to Obama's policies? Reminds me of Jimmy Carter, and Carter was successful individually as well.

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The Gremlin
AGAIN, 2 years was given for all those barking and complaining NOW to come up with what they have. If Bush really just want a war, he could have just go at it ASAP, plant abomb and not give anyone a chance to stop him or verify there was no WMD.

It's a simple analysis really.

perhaps i should explain.

i dont think that the 2 years mentioned is relevent, the world was waiting for the results of the inspections, and were happy that things were going through the correct channels, despite setbacks.

the inspectors wanted more time....but the US had its own agenda and timescale.

They defied the UN in declaring war.

the pretext that was actually used for going in is what people are 'barking and complaining' about.

the intelligence report which was dodgy, and manipulated by the US and UK to suggest to their citizens that Saddam had a 45 minutes launch capability for WMD.

This is what is at issue. Not the 2 years of previous inspections....this is why Bush and Blair are accused of lying.

Even Blix in numerous interviews is appauled at how they doctored and misrepresented the intelligence report, which was far from conclusive.

Edited by lil gremlin

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Dr. D
Well, it got ignored because it is not real news.

You simply go it the other way around.. :tu:

Oh, I see . . . . so Jenna's wedding is front page stuff and Bush trying to blackmail Mexico by saying the U.S. would cut all the anti-drug funding if they didn't vote for the International Criminal Court is not news. Interesting . . . but probably a hideous truth about this administration.

Georgie putting on his wannabee flight suit and proclaiming that the "heavy fighting is over! is news but having a clandestine operation to remove 8,000 pages of the Iraqi's arms report is not news.

The "national security" B.S. has been held over the press for the past eight years while Bush has done things to make Richard Nixon look like a jaywalker. But no . . . . it's not news.

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AROCES
perhaps i should explain.

i dont think that the 2 years mentioned is relevent, the world was waiting for the results of the inspections, and were happy that things were going through the correct channels, despite setbacks.

The WORLD was waiting???? Nope, there were those in the world who would wait and wait and wait and wait while Kofi is doing everything to cover up his Oil Fod food corrupt deals.

the inspectors wanted more time....but the US had its own agenda and timescale.

They defied the UN in declaring war.

They been there for 10 years??????????? More time????????????

the pretext that was actually used for going in is what people are 'barking and complaining' about.

Like I said, 2 years were given to prevent Military action.

the intelligence report which was dodgy, and manipulated by the US and UK to suggest to their citizens that Saddam had a 45 minutes launch capability for WMD.

Does not matter, nobody really knew then Saddams capability.

This is what is at issue. Not the 2 years of previous inspections....this is why Bush and Blair are accused of lying.

Lie to 30 other countries and the whole world??? And expect to get away with it?

Even Blix in numerous interviews is appauled at how they doctored and misrepresented the intelligence report, which was far from conclusive.

Yeah , he does sound so right now. AFTER!

Edited by AROCES

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Dr. D
perhaps i should explain.

i dont think that the 2 years mentioned is relevent, the world was waiting for the results of the inspections, and were happy that things were going through the correct channels, despite setbacks.

the inspectors wanted more time....but the US had its own agenda and timescale.

They defied the UN in declaring war.

the pretext that was actually used for going in is what people are 'barking and complaining' about.

the intelligence report which was dodgy, and manipulated by the US and UK to suggest to their citizens that Saddam had a 45 minutes launch capability for WMD.

This is what is at issue. Not the 2 years of previous inspections....this is why Bush and Blair are accused of lying.

Even Blix in numerous interviews is appauled at how they doctored and misrepresented the intelligence report, which was far from conclusive.

We are both wasting our time. Some here would ask you to forget all intelligence and logic and believe that George W. Bush, with the world's finest intelligence agencies at his command . . . agencies that can tell you the day and hour you started your potty training . . . . and he did not know the real status of the WMDs in Iraq.

They would ask you to believe that the very issue of Iraq was so critical that immediate action needed to be taken. They cannot explain, however, what would have been lost to permit the inspectors to continue . . . for another ten years if necessary? They worked for the U.N., not the U.S. Was Iraq posing a danger to the security of the United States? Had the inspectors found anything to raise suspicions about Iraq's danger to the world? Or was it little more than, "He tried to kill my daddy?"

We are asked to fall for the ignorance of Bush when he so arrogantly told Americans that Bin Laden was no longer a priority. Suddenly Saddam Hussein was a bigger threat. By what scrap of intelligence was this decision made?

But we do have one advantage. We can sleep at night and look in the mirror in the morning and know that we did not vote for this imbecile and thus are not accomplices to the destruction of America or the genocide of more than a hundred thousand innocent civilians.

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AROCES
Oh, I see . . . . so Jenna's wedding is front page stuff and Bush trying to blackmail Mexico by saying the U.S. would cut all the anti-drug funding if they didn't vote for the International Criminal Court is not news. Interesting . . . but probably a hideous truth about this administration.

Georgie putting on his wannabee flight suit and proclaiming that the "heavy fighting is over! is news but having a clandestine operation to remove 8,000 pages of the Iraqi's arms report is not news.

The "national security" B.S. has been held over the press for the past eight years while Bush has done things to make Richard Nixon look like a jaywalker. But no . . . . it's not news.

Yup, now you getting it right.

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AROCES
We are both wasting our time. Some here would ask you to forget all intelligence and logic and believe that George W. Bush, with the world's finest intelligence agencies at his command . . . agencies that can tell you the day and hour you started your potty training . . . . and he did not know the real status of the WMDs in Iraq.

The Clinton Administration, some Senators and the UN had warned the WORLD about Saddam WMD numerous times prior to Bush seeking the Presidency. and Clinton had the same Finest intelligence agencies at his command.

They would ask you to believe that the very issue of Iraq was so critical that immediate action needed to be taken.

Nope, 2 years was given to prevent war.

They cannot explain, however, what would have been lost to permit the inspectors to continue . . .

It never said to continue on forever, right?

What would have been lost? How about Saddam being able to retool since he is making hundred of millions with the help of Kofi?

for another ten years if necessary? They worked for the U.N., not the U.S. Was Iraq posing a danger to the security of the United States? Had the inspectors found anything to raise suspicions about Iraq's danger to the world? Or was it little more than, "He tried to kill my daddy?"

Yup, working for the UN headed by the corrupt Kofi.

But we do have one advantage. We can sleep at night and look in the mirror in the morning and know that we did not vote for this imbecile and thus are not accomplices to the destruction of America or the genocide of more than a hundred thousand innocent civilians.

Genocide? Who were the victims then?

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Dr. D
The Clinton Administration, some Senators and the UN had warned the WORLD about Saddam WMD numerous times prior to Bush seeking the Presidency. and Clinton had the same Finest intelligence agencies at his command.

Nope, 2 years was given to prevent war.

It never said to continue on forever, right?

What would have been lost? How about Saddam being able to retool since he is making hundred of millions with the help of Kofi?

Yup, working for the UN headed by the corrupt Kofi.

Genocide? Who were the victims then?

The Clinton Administration, some Senators and the UN had warned the WORLD about Saddam WMD numerous times prior to Bush seeking the Presidency. and Clinton had the same Finest intelligence agencies at his command.

Fortuntely, Clinton was a Rhodes scholar with the intelligence and insight to permit the U.N. to do their job. Warning the world and attacking a sovereign nation and killing their president is something quite different. The first is called responsible leadership, the second is blatant aggression taken against world opinion.

Nope, 2 years was given to prevent war.

That's nonsense. It would be convenient to have people believe it was two years after Georgie took office, but that would ask us to forget that among his many lies was that the invasion was relative to the War against Terror. That would make the relation to 9/11 a more legitimate timetable . . . . But then we would also have to forget those who told CNN that Bush was planning the invasion of Iraq BEFORE 9/11. So either Bush used 9/11 as an excuse to invade Iraq and lied to the Congress or it was a personal dream of his long before he had an excuse. Whichever scenario is correct, it still shows us just what type of creature he is.

It never said to continue on forever, right?

What would have been lost? How about Saddam being able to retool since he is making hundred of millions with the help of Kofi?

Highly unlikely with his nation occupied by inspectors. You conveniently forget the final report indicating that he never had WMDs . . . that he wanted that image of a nation with WMDs . . . so how can you "retool" what you didn't have? You must receive news that the rest of us don't. When was Kofi's trial? I didn't know that he had been convicted of any crime. At least, that's the line neocons give us about Bush.

Yup, working for the UN headed by the corrupt Kofi.

But Kofi didn't invade anyone and is not personally responsible for innocent deaths. So Kofi is corrupt and George is squeaky clean? Kofi couldn't hold a candle to Georgie's crimes.

Genocide? Who were the victims then?

The U.N. defines genocide in part as, ". . . .any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part. . . . . "

Considering that God personally told Georgie to invade Iraq, we can see some religious implications here.

Now, is he responsible for "killing members of the group?" Yes.

Has he "caused serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group?" Yes.

Has he "deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part?" Yes.

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AROCES
Fortuntely, Clinton was a Rhodes scholar with the intelligence and insight to permit the U.N. to do their job. Warning the world and attacking a sovereign nation and killing their president is something quite different. The first is called responsible leadership, the second is blatant aggression taken against world opinion.

So, the intelligence is the same but Bush did something about it against your all talk President

So there was no lie, right?

That's nonsense. It would be convenient to have people believe it was two years after Georgie took office, but that would ask us to forget that among his many lies was that the invasion was relative to the War against Terror. That would make the relation to 9/11 a more legitimate timetable . . . . But then we would also have to forget those who told CNN that Bush was planning the invasion of Iraq BEFORE 9/11. So either Bush used 9/11 as an excuse to invade Iraq and lied to the Congress or it was a personal dream of his long before he had an excuse. Whichever scenario is correct, it still shows us just what type of creature he is.
You may call it nonsense, but 2 years is still 730 days. that is more tahn enough really.

Highly unlikely with his nation occupied by inspectors. You conveniently forget the final report indicating that he never had WMDs . . . that he wanted that image of a nation with WMDs . . . so how can you "retool" what you didn't have? You must receive news that the rest of us don't. When was Kofi's trial? I didn't know that he had been convicted of any crime. At least, that's the line neocons give us about Bush.

We can only say now he has no WMD for we went in and VERIFIED it.

Can't really put any twist on that as hard as you may try..

But Kofi didn't invade anyone and is not personally responsible for innocent deaths. So Kofi is corrupt and George is squeaky clean? Kofi couldn't hold a candle to Georgie's crimes.

Sure, he was merely making side corrupt deals with the one responsible for mass graves after mass graves.

The U.N. defines genocide in part as, ". . . .any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part. . . . . "

So who were the victims?

Edited by AROCES

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Dr. D
So, the intelligence is the same but Bush did something about it against your all talk President

So there was no lie, right?

You may call it nonsense, but 2 years is still 730 days. that is more tahn enough really.

We can only say now he has no WMD for we went in and VERIFIED it.

Can't really put any twist on that as hard as you may try..

Sure, he was merely making side corrupt deals with the one responsible for mass graves after mass graves.

So who were the victims?

So, the intelligence is the same but Bush did something about it against your all talk President

So there was no lie, right?

The intelligence reports may have been the same but the intelligence of the two presidents cannot be compared. Georgie, with his "Is our children learning?" mentality decided to be the savior of the world and invade this nation while the responsible members of the U.N. were persuing the correct measures of having inspectors determine the TRUE state of Iraq's arms. Clinton preferred that solution and by it he did not kill 150,000 innocents. Clinton did not lie and say that Iraq was a direct threat to the U.S.

You may call it nonsense, but 2 years is still 730 days. that is more tahn enough really.

Considering that George is a little slow about everything, maybe he needed that amount of time to plan the invasion he had already decided to do.

We can only say now he has no WMD for we went in and VERIFIED it.

Absurd. Endorsing an international crime under any guise will always be unacceptable by a civilized world. We "verified" it at the cost of 4,000 American lives and God knows how many Iraqis? The inspectors would have eventually verified it, as well. There is no logical argument against that point. That a legitimate research, study and hands-on inspection takes longer than the ignorance of an invasion will not be contested. But there is something called humanity and George Bush has never learned about it.

Sure, he was merely making side corrupt deals with the one responsible for mass graves after mass graves.

The "Food for Oil" scandal cannot, no matter how hard you try, be compared to Georgie's daddy training the Iraqis on the use of biological weapons. That the real bosses in corporate America also had their fingers in this pie of international corruption should not be denied, either. To even imagine comparing Kofi to this vermin is fruitless and baseless.

So who were the victims?

Do I really need to explain this to you? When you are a power-mad idiot and lie to Congress to con them into voting a war declaration privilege that you use to invade a sovereign nation and kill at least 150,000 of their innocents and then have the stupidity to tell foreign representatives that God told you to do it . . . . by damn you have committed genocide and if you cannot recognize the victims, you share his lack of human compassion.

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AROCES
The intelligence reports may have been the same but the intelligence of the two presidents cannot be compared. Georgie, with his "Is our children learning?" mentality decided to be the savior of the world and invade this nation while the responsible members of the U.N. were persuing the correct measures of having inspectors determine the TRUE state of Iraq's arms. Clinton preferred that solution and by it he did not kill 150,000 innocents. Clinton did not lie and say that Iraq was a direct threat to the U.S.

George did something about a Tyrant, not a Nation that has been the headache of the world for almost a decade, you folks should at least be glad that Saddam is gone after all the mass graves found.

Your concern about human life really is being disengenous, seems like you simply prefer people dying and you don't hear about it.

Absurd. Endorsing an international crime under any guise will always be unacceptable by a civilized world. We "verified" it at the cost of 4,000 American lives and God knows how many Iraqis? The inspectors would have eventually verified it, as well. There is no logical argument against that point. That a legitimate research, study and hands-on inspection takes longer than the ignorance of an invasion will not be contested. But there is something called humanity and George Bush has never learned about it.

And you rather not do anything, gamble and wait for an explosion as verification, right?

Same thinking before 9/11, we been attacked many times but chose to take it lightly so the nenmy will not get angrier. So the enemy made sure we can't simply ignore the next attack.

The "Food for Oil" scandal cannot, no matter how hard you try, be compared to Georgie's daddy training the Iraqis on the use of biological weapons. That the real bosses in corporate America also had their fingers in this pie of international corruption should not be denied, either. To even imagine comparing Kofi to this vermin is fruitless and baseless.

That biological weapon was attained illegally, not a US govt' deal.

Do I really need to explain this to you? When you are a power-mad idiot and lie to Congress to con them into voting a war declaration privilege that you use to invade a sovereign nation and kill at least 150,000 of their innocents and then have the stupidity to tell foreign representatives that God told you to do it . . . . by damn you have committed genocide and if you cannot recognize the victims, you share his lack of human compassion.

150,000? Who are these people?

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