Atlantis is a reality find out where here

[Peter Cox]

And that is fair enought from you perspective, and I wish you all the best in figuring it all out.

Let me give you some food for thought, who is to say Atlantis was not the world before the great flood? (thats if you believe in the biblical account of Noah)

Who is to say its not the sunken city in Spain?

My point is merly that drawing any conclusion based on a place that cannot be proved to exsist is in itself going to be very very hard.

and please Im not suggesting either of the above is atlantis at all however it cant be proven nor 100% disproven. its all a matter of perception and opinion until definitive proof is supplied.

I can see the link you are drawing from culture to civilization, or political vr culture. Its all about methodology i suppose.

Good luck in your quest.

[docyabut2]

qoute-It's quite possible Athens never reached an army of that size. We know when Darius I sent an invasion force to Greece in 490 BCE, Athens could field only around 9,000 men (they were joined by a small force of 1,000 Platean soldiers). I suppose it might have been possible during the early years of the Peloponnesian War, when around 200,000 people might have been living in Athens before the plague reduced it's population by around a quarter. But that's not a certainty, and the number would've included mercenaries in the Athenian army.

All of this is to say, in his dialogs Plato was presenting Athens as a great and influential power from very ancient times, which we know was not the case. Plato probably could not have known that, of course.

(The legend tell us, that all the men of Athens voted for the gift of Poseidon and all the women, for the gift of Athena and because there was one woman more than the men, goddess Athena was selected and from her, the city took her name.

To defend the country from the Karian pirates from the sea and the Boeotians from the land, Kekrops, in order to manage better the population, distributed Attica in the following twelve sections: Aphidna, Brauron, Dekeleia, Epakria, Eleusis, Kekropia, Kephisius, Kytherus, Phalerus, Sphettus, Tetrapolis, Thorikus. He also ordered each man to cast a single stone and by counting the stones, it was found that they were twenty thousand inhabitants.

http://www.sikyon.co...ahist_eg01.html

This is how they dwelt, being the guardians of their own citizens and the leaders of the Hellenes, who were their willing followers. And they took care to preserve the same number of men and women through all time, being so many as were required for warlike purposes, then as now-that is to say, about twenty thousand.

Critias)

Edited December 12, 2012 by docyabut2

[Hartmut]

Like all Myth and Legends, Atlantis has and will be argued and speculated over forever by serious researchers and cranks .

As I see it, and that too is merely an (so far) unprovable opinion, there is only one place that could possibly fit into the legend with some degree of having been Atlantis in reality : The Minoan Empire !

No other Empire at the time was more advanced, more cultured, nor as powerful, yet totally peaceful, than the Minoans.

This exceptional Minoan civilization collapsed completely after the enormous and devastating volcanic explosion

of Thera (Santorini).

No other place or people fit time-wise and historically into the framework and description of what Atlantis was like,

as much or as close than the Minoan Empire.

And just like it has now been scientifically proven that the pyramids were not built by slaves (or aliens),

but by Egyptians, we can only hope that Atlantis too may one day have its existence and origin

proven beyond any doubt.

[docyabut2]

The tale of Atlantis and of the war of Athens points to Cecrops1( Kekrops)- 1582

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/cparada/GML/MythicalChronology.html

Edited December 12, 2012 by docyabut2

[Harte]

I'm using Platos account loosely. I can't prove anyones account. Why continue telling stories similar after Plato? I don't know.

There are no other stories about Atlantis except for later on people commenting on what Plato said.

There exist no stories about Atlantis earlier than Plato either.

Plato's claim that Solon got the story from Egypt is belied by the fact that no myth even remotely similar has been found to exist in Ancient Egypt.

Plato's story is the only story of Atlantis. If you leave Plato behind, you've left Atlantis behind as well.

Harte

[Dontlisten2me]

Thanks for all the replies and information everyone.

[docyabut2]

There are clear references in Plato`s account to the Kings of Athens, Cecrops`s dynasty 1582 bc and their numbers of their inhabitants ,who fought in this war with Atlantis. Atlantis had to have been the Minoan empire and there is the evidence of a eruption that destroyed Thera (Atlantis) around that time.

At Tell el Dab'a in Egypt, pumice found at this location has been dated to 1540 BCE, closer to the traditionally accepted date of Thera's eruption

Edited December 13, 2012 by docyabut2

[Peter Cox]

Like all Myth and Legends, Atlantis has and will be argued and speculated over forever by serious researchers and cranks .

As I see it, and that too is merely an (so far) unprovable opinion, there is only one place that could possibly fit into the legend with some degree of having been Atlantis in reality : The Minoan Empire !

No other Empire at the time was more advanced, more cultured, nor as powerful, yet totally peaceful, than the Minoans.

This exceptional Minoan civilization collapsed completely after the enormous and devastating volcanic explosion

of Thera (Santorini).

No other place or people fit time-wise and historically into the framework and description of what Atlantis was like,

as much or as close than the Minoan Empire.

And just like it has now been scientifically proven that the pyramids were not built by slaves (or aliens),

but by Egyptians, we can only hope that Atlantis too may one day have its existence and origin

proven beyond any doubt.

I have to agree with you on this, Atlantis is if anything at all is a fable of the Minoan Empire.

It makes the most sense to base it on that than anythign else that I can think of (prehaps for the South America theory)

However again Plato's was telling a story and may have made the entire thing up. So to speculate on a story is at best just a researched opinion. But if you had to pin point it to anything I would say you are right. It could be nothing and yet may be something.

[docyabut2]

Agree harmut, I defended the lost city of Tartesso as Atlantis for years because of the phase in Critius`s Atlantis And the name of his younger twin-brother, who had for his portion the extremity of the island near the pillars of Herakles up to the part of the country now called Gadeira after the name of that region, was Eumelos in Greek, but in the native tongue Gadeiros,--which fact may have given its title to the country which would put it at Cadiz, but then theres the country call Melos near Thera in the Agean.

http://0.tqn.com/d/ancienthistory/1/0/p/8/3/shepherd-c-004.jpg

[ISAEYEALLSEEING]

I have to agree with you on this, Atlantis is if anything at all is a fable of the Minoan Empire.

It makes the most sense to base it on that than anythign else that I can think of (prehaps for the South America theory)

However again Plato's was telling a story and may have made the entire thing up. So to speculate on a story is at best just a researched opinion. But if you had to pin point it to anything I would say you are right. It could be nothing and yet may be something.

Hi have you reasd this topic from the beginning ?

[Peter Cox]

For the most part yes. But i must admit I have missed several posts and comment on seleceted posts.

Why is there something critical I am missing?

[ISAEYEALLSEEING]

For the most part yes. But i must admit I have missed several posts and comment on seleceted posts.

Why is there something critical I am missing?

I DONT THINK SO IN THAT CASE i JUST FIND SOME OF YOUR COMMENTS REALLY INTERESTING

[Silver Surfer]

the links are all dead... i'd be interested in a read of this ...

[Ancient-Explorer]

There is the debate if Plato told a true story or describing an ideal country. In my opinion Atlantis existed and Plato described a real thing. Why I support this?

a) If he was describing an ideal country, it wouldn’t have had a bad end…

I know from a first-hand experience that specific organizations/societies have the alphabet of the Atlanteans and they use it as a form of encryption. Which means that they have access to information that the public do not.

c) There is plenty of evidence of submerged cities in the Atlantic Ocean (totally disagree with the theory that Atlantis was in Santorini).

And we should have in mind that if evidence of such a supreme civilization was found (which would also include technology) it would never come out in public. Unfortunately the best way to hide true information is to throw in a lot of rubbish – which happens with most of the theories that go against the ‘Status Quo’.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Ancient-Explorer

[Quaentum]

There is the debate if Plato told a true story or describing an ideal country. In my opinion Atlantis existed and Plato described a real thing. Why I support this?

a) If he was describing an ideal country, it wouldn’t have had a bad end…

I know from a first-hand experience that specific organizations/societies have the alphabet of the Atlanteans and they use it as a form of encryption. Which means that they have access to information that the public do not.

c) There is plenty of evidence of submerged cities in the Atlantic Ocean (totally disagree with the theory that Atlantis was in Santorini).

And we should have in mind that if evidence of such a supreme civilization was found (which would also include technology) it would never come out in public. Unfortunately the best way to hide true information is to throw in a lot of rubbish – which happens with most of the theories that go against the ‘Status Quo’.

a ) The premise that it must be real because the story had an unhappy ending is invalid since not all stories have happy endings.

b ) The premise that secret societies have and use the Atlantean alphabet is invalid for two reasons

b1 ) Since what Plato wrote about Atlantis can be refuted, there are no references to Atlantis prior to Plato, and The only references to Atlantis after Plato are based on Plato's writings, Atlantis didn't exist there can be no Atlantean alphabet

b2 ) If Atlantis had existed, their alphabet would have been found on carvings and other works of art as well as stone structures and possible documents, but there are none to be found

c ) Ask yourself this. Which of these supposed cities are located directly in front of the straights of Gibraltar?

In short, there is as yet nothing to support Atlantis that has not or can not be refuted. It places the mythical nation/continent/people just where Plato intended them to be. A fictional story designed to teach.

[Ancient-Explorer]

I would agree with you under different circumstances. However, first of all you will need to read Plato to understand what I mean. The main theory supporting that Plato used a fictional Atlantis is based on the idea that he used Atlantis to describe a perfect society. But this is not what he did - that's why I mentioned about the happy end. Of course not all stories need to have a happy end! But in the specific content it should - if someone would support the theory.

The alphabet that I mentioned is based on ancient documents that those high prestige and power organizations support that they have. I haven't personally seen them, but I know that many things that have been discovered are not known to the public. And that it includes not only the Vatican but also a few of those societies. Of course I cannot prove any of that, at least not public. So it is just my opinion, nothing more.

So publicly at the moment there is no evidence at all that Atlantis existed and archaeologists are split in two camps, the supporters and the non supporters.

However I would remind you that Mycenae and Troy were also legends until Schliemann discovered them ... So what is myth and what is history is not clearly defined.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Ancient-Explorer

[Quaentum]

I would agree with you under different circumstances. However, first of all you will need to read Plato to understand what I mean. The main theory supporting that Plato used a fictional Atlantis is based on the idea that he used Atlantis to describe a perfect society. But this is not what he did - that's why I mentioned about the happy end. Of course not all stories need to have a happy end! But in the specific content it should - if someone would support the theory.

The alphabet that I mentioned is based on ancient documents that those high prestige and power organizations support that they have. I haven't personally seen them, but I know that many things that have been discovered are not known to the public. And that it includes not only the Vatican but also a few of those societies. Of course I cannot prove any of that, at least not public. So it is just my opinion, nothing more.

So publicly at the moment there is no evidence at all that Atlantis existed and archaeologists are split in two camps, the supporters and the non supporters.

However I would remind you that Mycenae and Troy were also legends until Schliemann discovered them ... So what is myth and what is history is not clearly defined.

I agree that you must read what Plato wrote, then you must apply critical reasoning to what you find there. For example, Plato indicates that Atlantis subjugated parts of Europe and Africa. In cases like that there would be myths, legends, stories or perhaps even writings depicting this but nothing can be found in any of those areas. This, of course can be applied to other parts of the story. As more parts of the story are refuted the question pops up...How many parts of the story need to be shown to be untrue to come to the conclusion that it is just a fictional tale.

The claims by the secret societies that they have things like the Atlantean alphabet is just a way to get more people interested and willing to pay dues to join. Like Scientology telling Tom Cruise that if he paid them enough money and raised in the ranks he would eventually reach a level where he could learn to fly unaided.

Yes there are places like Troy that have been found by checking the most likely locations but the specific location of Atlantis, revealed by Plato has not yielded Atlantis or even a part of it.

There is no evidence, public or private and without evidence there is no real Atlantis, just the fictionalized one.

[Ancient-Explorer]

Well if you know for sure that there is no private evidence then I rest my case! However I would suggest that you should not underestimate the power of a few that may have this information and keep it secret in one way or the other - especially if you do not have experience on that.

[Quaentum]

Well if you know for sure that there is no private evidence then I rest my case! However I would suggest that you should not underestimate the power of a few that may have this information and keep it secret in one way or the other - especially if you do not have experience on that.

As far as private evidence, I rely on two questions:

1 - Is there an organization that has such wealth and power that they could have scoured the entire planet gathering for themselves or eliminating all references to Atlantis, be they physical, verbal or written, which would include wiping all traces of Atlantis from the minds of countless numbers of people without ever being detected?

2 - If such an organization could do and did that going to such great lengths, why would they have left Plato's works?

[Ancient-Explorer]

1. The ancient texts that have been discovered that go so far in time are extremely few. Ancient Greek texts are the exception and again if we suppose that what Plato says is true, it is a reference and not an original text from Atlantis. There are many organizations of such wealth and power that could easily hide something that is rare. Vatican is one of those and it is well known.

2. Plato was very famous and well known and his writings has been known since his days, so it was impossible to hide...

Further more, references to Atlantis in other civilizations could have been made under different names.

And just to mention my point again, I am not saying that I am 100% sure that Atlantis did exist, I am just leaning towards that direction based on what I have seen and I just keep my options open.

[cormac mac airt]

The Vatican can't hide the entire geological record for the area in question where Plato's Atlantis is claimed to reside. A record of which goes back millions of years without so much as a hint to the existance of Atlantis.

What names, as those usually suspected by Atlantis proponents actually have nothing to do with Atlantis?

cormac

[aquatus1]

I would agree with you under different circumstances. However, first of all you will need to read Plato to understand what I mean. The main theory supporting that Plato used a fictional Atlantis is based on the idea that he used Atlantis to describe a perfect society. But this is not what he did - that's why I mentioned about the happy end. Of course not all stories need to have a happy end! But in the specific content it should - if someone would support the theory.

You should read Plato again. The story of Atlantis is used by Plato to describe the perfect society. But the perfect society isn't Atlantis. The perfect society is Athens, the society that was being subjugated by the warmongering Atlanteans.

This is perfectly in keeping with the rest of Plato's works. There are exactly two and only two mentions of Atlantis in all of history, and they both come from Plato. You won't find any other mention of this metaphor that doesn't trace directly back to these two. Plato, however, did not write travelogs. He wrote dialogues on politics and philosophy, none at all on history. Timaeus and Critias are part of a 6 dialogue set (Critias, Laws, Philebus, Sophist, Statesman, Timaeus), the others of which refer directly to politics. Why would Plato suddenly pause in the middle of a dialogue regarding political philosophy and suddenly start talking about a city he heard that was being destroyed by barbarians? The only reason would be if he was using the city to clarify a point in the lecture, particularly since he specifically refers to it as fiction in the dialogues.

That Atlantis is fictional and a metaphor is not even in question by any academic, to the point that when they did an Atlantis special for ABC (CBS?), they had to find philosophers to talk about Atlantis, because they couldn't get any historians who believed it to be real. Who "they", you ask? The folk at Disney, who were trying to drum up some promotion for their new movie, but were surprised at the rather universal agreement among historians that Atlantis was not an actual city, no more than Plato's cave of shadows was an actual cave.

The alphabet that I mentioned is based on ancient documents that those high prestige and power organizations support that they have. I haven't personally seen them, but I know that many things that have been discovered are not known to the public. And that it includes not only the Vatican but also a few of those societies. Of course I cannot prove any of that, at least not public. So it is just my opinion, nothing more.

This is also known as "Snob Appeal".

So publicly at the moment there is no evidence at all that Atlantis existed and archaeologists are split in two camps, the supporters and the non supporters.

What archeologists or historians support the existence of Atlantis? Any? Let alone enough to be referred to as a "camp"?

However I would remind you that Mycenae and Troy were also legends until Schliemann discovered them ... So what is myth and what is history is not clearly defined.

Neither Mycenae nor Troy were used as examples of political philosophy in an academic dialogue spanning multiple texts on that specific topic. Context does indeed matter. If you ignore the context, you might as well scour northern Scotland for Hogwarts.

Edited April 3, 2013 by aquatus1

[docyabut2]

To me the only referrences of the Atlantis tale`s sinkings points to the 1500bc. Thera or the lost city of Tartesso in a like manner 595bc.

[Ancient-Explorer]

You should read Plato again. The story of Atlantis is used by Plato to describe the perfect society. But the perfect society isn't Atlantis. The perfect society is Athens, the society that was being subjugated by the warmongering Atlanteans.

This is perfectly in keeping with the rest of Plato's works. There are exactly two and only two mentions of Atlantis in all of history, and they both come from Plato. You won't find any other mention of this metaphor that doesn't trace directly back to these two. Plato, however, did not write travelogs. He wrote dialogues on politics and philosophy, none at all on history. Timaeus and Critias are part of a 6 dialogue set (Critias, Laws, Philebus, Sophist, Statesman, Timaeus), the others of which refer directly to politics. Why would Plato suddenly pause in the middle of a dialogue regarding political philosophy and suddenly start talking about a city he heard that was being destroyed by barbarians? The only reason would be if he was using the city to clarify a point in the lecture, particularly since he specifically refers to it as fiction in the dialogues.

That Atlantis is fictional and a metaphor is not even in question by any academic, to the point that when they did an Atlantis special for ABC (CBS?), they had to find philosophers to talk about Atlantis, because they couldn't get any historians who believed it to be real. Who "they", you ask? The folk at Disney, who were trying to drum up some promotion for their new movie, but were surprised at the rather universal agreement among historians that Atlantis was not an actual city, no more than Plato's cave of shadows was an actual cave.

This is also known as "Snob Appeal".

What archeologists or historians support the existence of Atlantis? Any? Let alone enough to be referred to as a "camp"?

Neither Mycenae nor Troy were used as examples of political philosophy in an academic dialogue spanning multiple texts on that specific topic. Context does indeed matter. If you ignore the context, you might as well scour northern Scotland for Hogwarts.

Another knowledgeable person? For crying out loud, I clarified that I am posting here to find researchers (with at least history or archaeology first degree), not followers. There is no need to try to prove anything to me, since it is obvious that I do not care.

[aquatus1]

Another knowledgeable person?

Yes.

For crying out loud, I clarified that I am posting here to find researchers (with at least history or archaeology first degree), not followers.

And I am here to combat the spread of ignorance, in all its forms.

There is no need to try to prove anything to me, since it is obvious that I do not care.

Very obvious. I will continue posting however, although I do actually care about the subject a bit, even though I care a great deal more about logic and reason.

What I do not care a whit about, however, is your rather ego-centric attitude. I will point out, though, that the person implying secret knowledge he cannot source shares the same "I don't care what you think of me." credibility as the man dropping names at a cocktail party.

Edited April 3, 2013 by aquatus1