Atlantis is a reality find out where here

[Ancient-Explorer]

Yes.

And I am here to combat the spread of ignorance, in all its forms.

Very obvious. I will continue posting however, although I do actually care about the subject a bit, even though I care a great deal more about logic and reason.

What I do not care a whit about, however, is your rather ego-centric attitude. I will point out, though, that the person implying secret knowledge he cannot source shares the same "I don't care what you think of me." credibility as the man dropping names at a cocktail party.

Oh well ...

[Quaentum]

Another knowledgeable person? For crying out loud, I clarified that I am posting here to find researchers (with at least history or archaeology first degree), not followers. There is no need to try to prove anything to me, since it is obvious that I do not care.

For the most part, people with history and/or archeological degrees will know from the vast lack of evidence that Atlantis is nothing more than a story and are not actively searching for it. Others with those degrees may be, but have found no evidence or have presented what they thought was evidence that has been refuted.

[Ancient-Explorer]

For the most part, people with history and/or archeological degrees will know from the vast lack of evidence that Atlantis is nothing more than a story and are not actively searching for it. Others with those degrees may be, but have found no evidence or have presented what they thought was evidence that has been refuted.

I thought I was clear when I said that it still under question if Atlantis was real or not (even if I believe that it was real for my reasons), and that there is no hard evidence - at least not public. But the fact that there is a lack of evidence doesn't eliminate the possibility for evidence to be found in the future.

What you say about the research on Atlantis is not true, there are actively many researchers of both categories searching intensively for evidence for Atlantis.

[Quaentum]

I thought I was clear when I said that it still under question if Atlantis was real or not (even if I believe that it was real for my reasons), and that there is no hard evidence - at least not public. But the fact that there is a lack of evidence doesn't eliminate the possibility for evidence to be found in the future.

What you say about the research on Atlantis is not true, there are actively many researchers of both categories searching intensively for evidence for Atlantis.

Just out of curiosity, if you know of such researchers, if you haven't already, why are not contacting them instead of looking for researchers on an internet message board?

[Proclus]

I thought I was clear when I said that it still under question if Atlantis was real or not (even if I believe that it was real for my reasons), and that there is no hard evidence - at least not public. But the fact that there is a lack of evidence doesn't eliminate the possibility for evidence to be found in the future.

What you say about the research on Atlantis is not true, there are actively many researchers of both categories searching intensively for evidence for Atlantis.

Reasonable words from Ancient-Explorer, but I do not think that Atlantis was in the Atlantic Ocean, or that secret societies have knowledge on it.

Maybe the following list of literature could help to improve the discussion!?

http://www.atlantis-scout.de/atlantis_introduction.htm

When writing the list it came to my mind that in German language there is much more reasonable literature on the existence of Atlantis than in English literature. This surprised me. The "big solution" is surely wrong, because it does not consider the historical context.

_

[Ancient-Explorer]

Reasonable words from Ancient-Explorer, but I do not think that Atlantis was in the Atlantic Ocean, or that secret societies have knowledge on it.

Maybe the following list of literature could help to improve the discussion!?

http://www.atlantis-...ntroduction.htm

When writing the list it came to my mind that in German language there is much more reasonable literature on the existence of Atlantis than in English literature. This surprised me. The "big solution" is surely wrong, because it does not consider the historical context.

_

Great thanks Proclus for the list. I especially like that it includes references from both sides.

[Ancient-Explorer]

Just out of curiosity, if you know of such researchers, if you haven't already, why are not contacting them instead of looking for researchers on an internet message board?

Very good question. Obviously I am not looking at this forum (and other forums where I have started posting) for the scientists to form the core team. There are already researchers (with the relevant degrees) in the core team - though not complete yet. I am just looking for new 'stars'. And the reason I do that is because I believe that it is easier to see things from a different perspective when you are new in a specific area. I apologize that I cannot mention more details at the moment, but once the project starts I will be obliged to do so.

[aquatus1]

I thought I was clear when I said that it still under question if Atlantis was real or not (even if I believe that it was real for my reasons), and that there is no hard evidence - at least not public.

No one has asked you for evidence. They have just pointed out flaws in your reasoning and your basic assumptions.

But the fact that there is a lack of evidence doesn't eliminate the possibility for evidence to be found in the future.

Alternatively, the existence of evidence which indicates that Atlantis is a metaphor would.

What you say about the research on Atlantis is not true, there are actively many researchers of both categories searching intensively for evidence for Atlantis.

Such as whom? What university or group offered a grant to a historian or archeologist looking for Atlantis?

[cormac mac airt]

I thought I was clear when I said that it still under question if Atlantis was real or not (even if I believe that it was real for my reasons), and that there is no hard evidence - at least not public. But the fact that there is a lack of evidence doesn't eliminate the possibility for evidence to be found in the future.

What you say about the research on Atlantis is not true, there are actively many researchers of both categories searching intensively for evidence for Atlantis.

The complete lack of evidence is the only evidence that matters. One can't base an argument on evidence that doesn't exist or hasn't been found. And since Plato's description of Atlantis' geographical location and timeframe are the origin of the story and the geological, chronological, archaeological and genetic records don't support said story, then there is no reason to assume it existed.

cormac

[Ancient-Explorer]

No one has asked you for evidence. They have just pointed out flaws in your reasoning and your basic assumptions.

Alternatively, the existence of evidence which indicates that Atlantis is a metaphor would.

Such as whom? What university or group offered a grant to a historian or archeologist looking for Atlantis?

It is like I am talking to a wall here.. Which part of 'I cannot mention details' you do not understand?

The complete lack of evidence is the only evidence that matters. One can't base an argument on evidence that doesn't exist or hasn't been found. And since Plato's description of Atlantis' geographical location and timeframe are the origin of the story and the geological, chronological, archaeological and genetic records don't support said story, then there is no reason to assume it existed.

cormac

Yes 'Master'...

[aquatus1]

It is like I am talking to a wall here.. Which part of 'I cannot mention details' you do not understand?

The part where you state that many archeologists and historians are actively and intensively searching for Atlantis, but apparently you are not allowed to give their names. Are all of them working on your project?

No, that isn't likely. To be frank, the way you speak of your project, you are not looking for academics, but rather people with a shadier set of skills that would allow them to access and retrieve this information that is being held prisoner.

Yes 'Master'...

You do not have what it takes to be a student of mine.

[Proclus]

The part where you state that many archeologists and historians are actively and intensively searching for Atlantis,

Well, to find some scholars looking for Atlantis it is worth to browse the list of publications mentioned above in my last posting.

The authors are our contemporaries or at least lived in recent decades.

And it is not a secret about this all ;-)

_

[kmt_sesh]

It is like I am talking to a wall here.. Which part of 'I cannot mention details' you do not understand?

...

Aquatus1 already called you on this, and properly so, but if you're not prepared to defend or elaborate on a point you're trying to make, don't bother trying to make the point in the first place. This is a forum for discussion and debate, not for innuendo or evasion.

[Ancient-Explorer]

Well, to find some scholars looking for Atlantis it is worth to browse the list of publications mentioned above in my last posting.

The authors are our contemporaries or at least lived in recent decades.

And it is not a secret about this all ;-)

_

Thanks Proclus. I have done already this and have sent the compiled list to the academics in the team (who are actually in charge) to have a look.

To the rest (aquatus1, kmt_sesh, etc) : Creating all this 'noise' and reaction with the topic has given its fruit - even if you comments were useless they fulfilled their purpose. Two members of the forum with respective university degrees have already contacted me in private - and the funny thing is that they haven't posted a single comment ....

kmt_sesh forums exist for two reasons a) constructive discussions for adults nonsense discussions for kids trying to prove themselves. There is a difference between a constructive discussion and an egocentric nonsense. I am trying to do the first but with little response so far - with the exception of Proclus and Quaentum (even if he had a different opinion - he used arguments).

[aquatus1]

Well, to find some scholars looking for Atlantis it is worth to browse the list of publications mentioned above in my last posting.

Well, I'm not really looking for any old scholar, but rather actual archeologists or historians who are actively looking for Atlantis, as per Ancient-Explorers claim. For instance, take the first four names in your link there:

John Luce is a classicist, not a historian, and certainly not an archeologist. He didn't look for Atlantis, but merely theorized that Atlantis was based on the Minoan civilization. Similarly, Eberhard Zanger, who was actually an geologist, wasn't looking for Atlantis either, but theorized that it was based on the then-legend of Troy. Papamarinopoulos is a physicist, and he doesn't so much search for Atlantis, rather he has held two symposiums on it and published the discussions in a book. Thorwald Franke...well, he's an IT guy and a big fan of Atlantis, as per his website.

This is a recurring pattern. You ask for experts in the field of archeology or history, fields which would be directly involved in the discussion of an ancient civilization, but all you get is fields that have nothing to do with it. It's the old story of Appeal to Authority.

The authors are our contemporaries or at least lived in recent decades.

No argument. And they are (mostly) all scholars as well. No one is denying that much has been written about Atlantis. That isn't in question. The question is how many people who actually work in the field of archeology or history consider Atlantis to be a credible candidate as an existing city.

And it is not a secret about this all ;-)

Of course not. One of the more amusing aspects to "hidden", "secret", or even (gasp!) "suppressed" information is that most of it is a mere click away from discovery.

When you publish, you want the world to know. Intellectual recognition is great and all, but hey, money is nice too.

Which, of course, begs the question of what purpose there is in concealing actual evidence of Atlantis.

[Harsh86_Patel]

Well, I'm not really looking for any old scholar, but rather actual archeologists or historians who are actively looking for Atlantis, as per Ancient-Explorers claim. For instance, take the first four names in your link there:

John Luce is a classicist, not a historian, and certainly not an archeologist. He didn't look for Atlantis, but merely theorized that Atlantis was based on the Minoan civilization. Similarly, Eberhard Zanger, who was actually an geologist, wasn't looking for Atlantis either, but theorized that it was based on the then-legend of Troy. Papamarinopoulos is a physicist, and he doesn't so much search for Atlantis, rather he has held two symposiums on it and published the discussions in a book. Thorwald Franke...well, he's an IT guy and a big fan of Atlantis, as per his website.

This is a recurring pattern. You ask for experts in the field of archeology or history, fields which would be directly involved in the discussion of an ancient civilization, but all you get is fields that have nothing to do with it. It's the old story of Appeal to Authority.

No argument. And they are (mostly) all scholars as well. No one is denying that much has been written about Atlantis. That isn't in question. The question is how many people who actually work in the field of archeology or history consider Atlantis to be a credible candidate as an existing city.

Of course not. One of the more amusing aspects to "hidden", "secret", or even (gasp!) "suppressed" information is that most of it is a mere click away from discovery.

When you publish, you want the world to know. Intellectual recognition is great and all, but hey, money is nice too.

Which, of course, begs the question of what purpose there is in concealing actual evidence of Atlantis.

Here is a good trivia question for you,please look into the same.

How many archaeologists and historians have dived underwater at Dwarka, Mahabalipuram,Off the coast of Cuba, Yonaguni. Why are these sites being practically ignored.

We have Graham Hancock self financing and diving in these spots,and one of the few people who publicised these sites. Where was the mainstream? where are the people from the stream itself?

In the absence of mainstream archaeologists studying these sites,you will have to rely on outsiders for information.

[aquatus1]

Thanks Proclus. I have done already this and have sent the compiled list to the academics in the team (who are actually in charge) to have a look.

Good luck with that. I think two of the authors are still alive.

Creating all this 'noise' and reaction with the topic has given its fruit - even if you comments were useless they fulfilled their purpose.

I agree, though probably not about the same conclusion that you refer to.

Two members of the forum with respective university degrees have already contacted me in private - and the funny thing is that they haven't posted a single comment ....

Of course they did.

kmt_sesh forums exist for two reasons a) constructive discussions for adults nonsense discussions for kids trying to prove themselves. There is a difference between a constructive discussion and an egocentric nonsense. I am trying to do the first but with little response so far - with the exception of and (even if he had a different opinion - he used arguments).

You would be more successfull with the first if you didn't have so much of the second mixed in. Egocentrism isn't really an obstacle to credibility, though (heck, I own my egocentrism proudly, and never pretend it is anything other than what it is). The problem is when one's egocentrism, rather than being an aspect of their character, becomes the foundation for their authority (or lack thereof). When the ego is given priority over reason, you run into the problem that ego tries to stay at the top by creating more and more grandiose claims, which end up making the actual lack of foundational knowledge more and more apparent.

So you end up with someone who incorrectly describes the story of Atlantis as one in which an ideal country (Atlantis) comes to a bad end, and mentions secrets that he has first-hand experience with. When called on this, the story grows to include secret societies, binding promises of silence, and insistence of a controversy where non exists. This then grows into entire organizations of wealth and power hiding evidence on a global scale. This then becomes a quest to find "True Researchers (ers, ers, ers...)", like historians, or archeologists, not "followers", like those silly people who are wasting valuable time talking about...the story...and history...and archeology...

Ultimately, you end up with a guy who hasn't actually read the story of Atlantis (or, at least, missed the part about the Atlanteans being the barbarians and the Athenians being the perfect society), doesn't know anything about the context of its creation beyond who the author was (or what the author wrote about), isn't able to refer to a single historian or archeologist out of all the many researchers in either category actively searching for Atlantis (really, just what sort of binding oath prevents you from referring to any experts in two entire academic fields?), and yet is somehow part of a team with a core group of researchers focused on...well, he can't really tells us that either, although he can tell us that two people with expert credentials we have never heard of or from have decided to contact him because he is so believable.

Seriously though, if you want to talk about Atlantis, great, we can talk about Atlantis. Your side says X, our side says Y, we post, we rant, we laugh, we smug (I smug. I know others smug. Smugging is fun), and when all is said and done, we go to our corners, and tomorrow, we do the whole thing again. The part where you are recruiting for the super-double-secret elite team that is going to take on the Vatican and any other organization using the Atlantean alphabet you have personally seen? You don't need that. You don't have to prove anything to us. We like you as is; you don't have to be anything greater. If you learn something, great! If you don't, oh well. In the end, no one gets hurt, either way.

Ego unchained is an terrible thing. If you let it loose as is, its just going to jump around and annoy people. Collar it, chain it to the doghouse, and only let it out to play when its been good. That way, we can enjoy our tea and crumpets, as well as talking about Atlantis, without the cold nose of egocentrism demanding attention.

[Harsh86_Patel]

Ya but at the same time have enough of an Ego to honour a proposition after you have made it as it is bad for your self image to decline after extending a invitation.

[aquatus1]

How many archaeologists and historians have dived underwater at Dwarka, Mahabalipuram,Off the coast of Cuba, Yonaguni.

How many? Geez...to my recollection, Dwarka has had about eight official expeditions, not counting the current university group over there. I think the first two were mostly geologists, but pretty much all the ones after that were archeological studies, so I would guesstimate, maybe a dozen archeologists, over the last three decades? Somewhere in that general area? Depends on which part of the site is accesible, mostly.

Mahabalipuram, being a World Heritage site and visited fairly regularly by tourists, has archeologists working regularly, so over a dozen, easily. The Archaeological Society of India (I forget the official name) has been pushing it lately, after the 2004 tsunami uncovered some incredible new structures.

Yonaguni has been pretty much decisively shown to be a natural formation, which doesn't make it any less cool, but right now, tensions in that area are a bit high, what with China making noises over the Senkaku Islands and all.

Why are these sites being practically ignored.

How are you defining "ignored"?

We have Graham Hancock self financing and diving in these spots,and one of the few people who publicised these sites. Where was the mainstream? where are the people from the stream itself?

Publishing actual research on it. You won't find that in the Fiction section of the bookstore, however. You will have to go to the Science section. Or the travel section, in the case of Mahabalipuram.

In the absence of mainstream archaeologists studying these sites,you will have to rely on outsiders for information.

Harsh...

Don't you think, prior to assuming that no academic has ever investigated something, it is worth spending a few minutes on Google to see if any academic has...well, investigated something?

It's like you want science to be the bad guy.

[aquatus1]

Ya but at the same time have enough of an Ego to honour a proposition after you have made it as it is bad for your self image to decline after extending a invitation.

Okay, first off, Ego and Honor are two seperate things.

Second, if you are referring to my offer to teach you about science, it is definitely still on, and it will not be anything quick. You do understanding that I do not post solely for you. I can't be everywhere at once (see, that's ego).

[Harsh86_Patel]

How many? Geez...to my recollection, Dwarka has had about eight official expeditions, not counting the current university group over there. I think the first two were mostly geologists, but pretty much all the ones after that were archeological studies, so I would guesstimate, maybe a dozen archeologists, over the last three decades? Somewhere in that general area? Depends on which part of the site is accesible, mostly.

Mahabalipuram, being a World Heritage site and visited fairly regularly by tourists, has archeologists working regularly, so over a dozen, easily. The Archaeological Society of India (I forget the official name) has been pushing it lately, after the 2004 tsunami uncovered some incredible new structures.

Yonaguni has been pretty much decisively shown to be a natural formation, which doesn't make it any less cool, but right now, tensions in that area are a bit high, what with China making noises over the Senkaku Islands and all.

How are you defining "ignored"?

Publishing actual research on it. You won't find that in the Fiction section of the bookstore, however. You will have to go to the Science section. Or the travel section, in the case of Mahabalipuram.

Harsh...

Don't you think, prior to assuming that no academic has ever investigated something, it is worth spending a few minutes on Google to see if any academic has...well, investigated something?

It's like you want science to be the bad guy.

Most of the things on google related to these sites are opinions of these so called scholars based on miniscule amount of data collected regarding these sites. You understand right that if the structures at majority of these sites are recognized as man-made will then lead us to ancient lost civilizations.

[Harsh86_Patel]

Okay, first off, Ego and Honor are two seperate things.

Second, if you are referring to my offer to teach you about science, it is definitely still on, and it will not be anything quick. You do understanding that I do not post solely for you. I can't be everywhere at once (see, that's ego).

Ego is not attitude....it is self image,without having a healthy ego a person cannot be happy.

Honouring your commitments means fulfilling them.....was not talking about honour as an abstract concept.

Was more eager to teach you science and not the other way round. (now thats called 'attitude')

[aquatus1]

Most of the things on google related to these sites are opinions of these so called scholars based on miniscule amount of data collected regarding these sites.

Harsh...come on. Don't pretend you have the slightest idea how much data has been collected by these people.

You understand right that if the structures at majority of these sites are recognized as man-made will then lead us to ancient lost civilizations.

There is nothing at these sites that we don't see at other sites, all around the world, throughout all of time.

Ego is not attitude....

Nope. Ego influences attitude.

it is self image,without having a healthy ego a person cannot be happy.

Yep. Alternatively, an unhealthy ego leads people to boost themselves by making themselves feel bigger.

Honouring your commitments means fulfilling them.....

Yep. It doesn't mean being at your beck and call.

was not talking about honour as an abstract concept.

Good. Honor isn't an abstract concept.

Was more eager to teach you science and not the other way round. (now thats called 'attitude')

Indeed it is!

It's also wrong, but we'll hash that out in the other thread. I think we've derailed this one long enough.

[Proclus]

John Luce is a classicist, not a historian, and certainly not an archeologist. He didn't look for Atlantis, but merely theorized that Atlantis was based on the Minoan civilization. Similarly, Eberhard Zanger, who was actually an geologist, wasn't looking for Atlantis either, but theorized that it was based on the then-legend of Troy. Papamarinopoulos is a physicist, and he doesn't so much search for Atlantis, rather he has held two symposiums on it and published the discussions in a book. Thorwald Franke...well, he's an IT guy and a big fan of Atlantis, as per his website.

Can't you see that you create principally impossible criteria?

Archaeologists by nature cannot talk of Atlantis (at least they should not) and not of Troy etc.,

because ... it is a question of interpretation whether this heap of rubble or that heap was Troy or Atlantis, etc.

And this is not the job of archaeologists.

By the way: Zangger is "geoarchaeologist", not geologist.

When it comes to interpretation then classicists are the first ones.

Why do you exclude them? I don't get it. Really. This exclusion is utter nonsense.

You really have to explain this thoroughly if you want to stay with this exclusion.

Left are the historians. They already have interpretations for all known cultures.

The key idea of all academicians in favour of existence is: Atlantis was one of the known cultures.

So the historians have no urge to say of any of these cultures that it was Atlantis. They just leave this to the classicists.

The classicists are the ones who have to act first.

Then the historians.

Then the archaeologists.

Zangger and Luce: Why did they not dig for Atlantis?

Because there is no need for digging! There is a need for interpretation!

(The "IT guy" Franke: Even Atlantis skeptical classicists said of his books that they are "worth reading". Did they ever say anything similar on any book of an Atlantis searcher?)

[Ancient-Explorer]

Okay, first off, Ego and Honor are two seperate things.

Second, if you are referring to my offer to teach you about science, it is definitely still on, and it will not be anything quick. You do understanding that I do not post solely for you. I can't be everywhere at once (see, that's ego).

To teach Science you have to be a scientist and not a 'Google Search user', as it seems that you are... If I judge from the number of your posts in this forum .... oh boy ... you could have studied at a University real science if you have used your time wisely. But then I know your reply ... No more comments ...