Atlantis Discussion Thread

[M.A.D CapeBretoner]

you know i was gonna give a big speel about this but there is just a big fog of forgetfullness that surrands this and if you can see and hear what i am saying then bless it be if not then damed will be ,follow what the lord has said for he has showed the way .

my pationts grow thin and soon you will know what i mean ,that heavy hand is starting to rise, i pray that when she comes down the truth will be seen.

[The Puzzler]

you know i was gonna give a big speel about this but there is just a big fog of forgetfullness that surrands this and if you can see and hear what i am saying then bless it be if not then damed will be ,follow what the lord has said for he has showed the way .

my pationts grow thin and soon you will know what i mean ,that heavy hand is starting to rise, i pray that when she comes down the truth will be seen.

Thanks for all the info M.A.D and sorry for taking so long to reply.

I did read a Wiki article on Cape Breton Island and it's really interesting. Looks a beautiful place.

As for it being Atlantis, I'm not sure but it's as good a place as any.

[Dr. D]

To add to the quote from Da Verminator earlier.

Santorini

Up from the 30 cubic km originally believed to have been expelled.

It should also be noticed that the destruction of Santorini would have a "same day effect" on the area around Athens which agrees with Plato. Also from the size Plato gives, 3000 stadia X 2000 stadia, there is no geological evidence of an island/continent outside the Straits of Gibraltar that size. Interesting enough, that size is about the same size as the Southern Aegean before it drops off into the deeper Mediterranean.

cormac

Plato noted, “At a later time thee occurred portentous earthquakes and floods, and the grievous day and night befell them, when the whole body of your (Greek) warriors was swallowed up by the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner was swallowed up by the sea and vanished . . .”

There is no indication of part of the island remaining even though it was “larger than Libya and Asia (Asia Minor) together . . . .”

[cormac mac airt]

Plato noted, “At a later time thee occurred portentous earthquakes and floods, and the grievous day and night befell them, when the whole body of your (Greek) warriors was swallowed up by the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner was swallowed up by the sea and vanished . . .”

There is no indication of part of the island remaining even though it was “larger than Libya and Asia (Asia Minor) together . . . .”

True enough, but really begs the question of whether this was a real event or not and if so how much was real and how much made up. How does anyone decide? There is no evidence that the story, if true, was true in its entirety.

cormac

[Dr. D]

True enough, but really begs the question of whether this was a real event or not and if so how much was real and how much made up. How does anyone decide? There is no evidence that the story, if true, was true in its entirety.

cormac

" . . . . Yonder is a real ocean, and the land surrounding it may most rightly be called, in the fullest and truest sense, a continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there existed a confederation of kings, a great a marvelous power, which held sway over all the island, and over many other islands also and parts of the continent, and, moreover, of the lands here within the Straits they ruled over Libya as far as Egypt, and over Europe as far as Tuscany."

Plato Timaeus 24 E-25 B.

In spite of this far-reaching power, we have found nothing in the form of artifacts or relics that can be associated with Atlantis. We find nothing in the writings of Egypt even though the king's list of Herodotus reached back through the centuries.

Strabo and Pliny thought that the story of Atlantis was an illusion of the elderly Plato.

Plato wrote down what Solon had heard in Egypt from a knowledgeable priest. With that alone we have third hand information that is rarely valid.

[cormac mac airt]

" . . . . Yonder is a real ocean, and the land surrounding it may most rightly be called, in the fullest and truest sense, a continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there existed a confederation of kings, a great a marvelous power, which held sway over all the island, and over many other islands also and parts of the continent, and, moreover, of the lands here within the Straits they ruled over Libya as far as Egypt, and over Europe as far as Tuscany."

Plato Timaeus 24 E-25 B.

In spite of this far-reaching power, we have found nothing in the form of artifacts or relics that can be associated with Atlantis. We find nothing in the writings of Egypt even though the king's list of Herodotus reached back through the centuries.

Strabo and Pliny thought that the story of Atlantis was an illusion of the elderly Plato.

Plato wrote down what Solon had heard in Egypt from a knowledgeable priest. With that alone we have third hand information that is rarely valid.

I have to agree with you. I'm not saying that Santorini was Atlantis, at least not entirely as described by Plato, but I do think it may have been a good template for the story. The devastation of the eruption and the collapse of the middle of the island would have been remembered for centuries. And the story of Atlantis isn't even third hand information. From the Egyptian Priest to Solon to Dropidas to Critias the elder to Critias the younger to Plato, so at least 5th hand. Realistically, how accurate would it have been overall, not very I'd think.

cormac

[Dr. D]

I have to agree with you. I'm not saying that Santorini was Atlantis, at least not entirely as described by Plato, but I do think it may have been a good template for the story. The devastation of the eruption and the collapse of the middle of the island would have been remembered for centuries. And the story of Atlantis isn't even third hand information. From the Egyptian Priest to Solon to Dropidas to Critias the elder to Critias the younger to Plato, so at least 5th hand. Realistically, how accurate would it have been overall, not very I'd think.

cormac

But nowhere in Plato's account was the middle of the island sunk. The island disappeared completely with only traces of mud to show where it had been.

[cormac mac airt]

But nowhere in Plato's account was the middle of the island sunk. The island disappeared completely with only traces of mud to show where it had been.

Which is why I suggested that the story of Santorini may have been a good template for Plato's story of Atlantis. If a person takes everything that Plato says about Atlantis as fact, assuming something existed as a basis for the story, then the story unravels rather quickly.

Plato says it's located just outside the Straits of Gibraltar, c. 9500 BC. There is no evidence.

Plato describes it as 3000 X 2000 stadia, roughly 345 miles X 230 miles. Something that large should have existed on continental crust, where Plato says Atlantis existed there is none.

Plato says Atlantis' destruction was the cause of impenetrable mud shoals. For that to happen just outside the Straits of Gibraltar, the sea level would have to be ridiculously low in order for mud to be a problem. In the Aegean Sea off of Santorini that wouldn't be the case.

Athens and Egypt, as a people, didn't exist in 9500 BC. Their ancestors were nomads.

It's just as possible I believe for Plato to have taken an old half remembered story, like Santorini, modifying a few of the details including where it was and then using it in a morality story. The point of the story wasn't about Atlantis anyway, it was about how little the then current Greeks knew about their past.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Which is why I suggested that the story of Santorini may have been a good template for Plato's story of Atlantis. If a person takes everything that Plato says about Atlantis as fact, assuming something existed as a basis for the story, then the story unravels rather quickly.

Plato says it's located just outside the Straits of Gibraltar, c. 9500 BC. There is no evidence.

Plato describes it as 3000 X 2000 stadia, roughly 345 miles X 230 miles. Something that large should have existed on continental crust, where Plato says Atlantis existed there is none.

Plato says Atlantis' destruction was the cause of impenetrable mud shoals. For that to happen just outside the Straits of Gibraltar, the sea level would have to be ridiculously low in order for mud to be a problem. In the Aegean Sea off of Santorini that wouldn't be the case.

Athens and Egypt, as a people, didn't exist in 9500 BC. Their ancestors were nomads.

It's just as possible I believe for Plato to have taken an old half remembered story, like Santorini, modifying a few of the details including where it was and then using it in a morality story. The point of the story wasn't about Atlantis anyway, it was about how little the then current Greeks knew about their past.

cormac

The arguments you and expatriate put up are great points to look at and thankfully stay true to Plato instead of some super advanced alien based culture(??!).

I don't believe it is set in 9500BC but I do think it is meant to be around 4000BC since an Egyptian priest in 600BC would know very well his culture had been around longer than 600 years, when people say he is talking about 900 years instead of 9000 years. If an Egyptian priest of 600BC thought his culture had only been around since 1200BC he wouldn't be a very good history teller now would he? Doesn't make sense, it has to be set at the beginning of Egyptian civilisation, which is when the priest is saying it is......regardless of the year stated, he is talking about the beginning of his culture. They didn't even start counting years back then so a precise date cannot be stated imo. In 4000BC I believe they had enough capability to build a place as mentioned as Atlantis. If you read it carefully, there is nothing overly advanced really. The temples and Hypogeum in Malta are very superior built places from the same time 4000BC, also people had been on the Acropolis in Greece since 5000BC. The religious rituals and way there was meetings held in the temples by the kings to discuss matters and sarificing of bulls are all found in Maltese and Etruscan culture and these areas fit much better with Plato's western description.

I think the timeline is not very important in the narratives and that some known Minoan influence is present in the story but overall don't think it is a story based in it as I do think there would be a record of it in that case.

I don't think either it was known at Atlantis and that is simply a Greek word for it based on where Plato knew it was situated, the Egyptians would have had another name for it, we may know about it and don't even recognise it!

The whole story is based in morality and what constitutes a perfect state (of ourselves and how this makes for a better society).

I have a second theory that fits in too, that Plato is telling 2 meshed stories, and he does tell us this when he says:

"in accordance with Solon's story and his laws".

I have a whole topic on my interpretation of how the whole story is a parallel to Solon's life too, which is more inline with Socrates part in the Atlantis narrative more than the island itself.

The story as I have worked out is not actually told by a Critias but is heard by Plato himself as a child from his maternal great grandfather Critias who was a nephew of Solon. It is more likely for a GREAT grandfather to be 90, not a grandfather when you are 10, once again illogical. I do have a link in another topic about Plato being Critias in another narrative, I'll find it. In Timeaus and Critias, Plato is actually "Critias", who himself heard it as a child as I mentioned.

I think the main question we have to ask is what did Atlantis represent in the story, which seems to be a place that was created with great splendour reduced to nothing by means of their immorality and greed. This was written at a time when Plato had discovered the concept of a virtuous Monad (one God) contrary to his Greek pantheon of immoral Gods.

These are some of my main views on it.

[The Puzzler]

Just adding to that:

I also think early Egyptians were migrants from the Sahara, first arriving around 5000BC and building the Sphinx and Great Pyramid with later migrations replicating it and taking on new beliefs around 3500-4000BC, what we know as the 'beginning' of Egyptian culture.

The Saharans had to go somewhere and imo they went to Egypt, Malta up into Italy and also moved south in Africa once again imo. This was the 'unprovoked expedition'.

I followed the Gods amongst other things and they all link together from culture to the next with one taking another on in their pantheon of Gods. Poseidon is a Libyan God who is also an Etruscan God then Greek and also shows his head in Minoan culture also He is a bull god, horse god and god of earthquakes.

I also think the Trojan War is an Etruscan tale adopted by the Greeks as the Greeks also adopted many Etruscan Gods as well not to mention a most important aspect - the seer. The Cumae and the Delphi oracle are very intriguing in the whole story with the link to Calchas (the seer on the journey to Troy) even more so. It's in these aspects that I picked up that I believe the Greeks myths are actually Etruscan ones.

Edited June 29, 2008 by weareallsuckers

[The Puzzler]

Back also to the shoal of mud which is common in translation. I found this translation in this old 1911 newspaper srticle about a find of Poseidon statue indicating Atlantis was in Africa, now I'm not going on that but here is the translation:

"This is the explanation of the shallows that can be found in that part of the Atlantic Ocean."

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/...amp;oref=slogin

or we have:

"For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island."

So is it shallows there now or is it impenetrable (from the mud shoals) I wonder?

[The Puzzler]

Can anyone show me any links to any translations of Timaeus and Critias in English please that they know of besides Jowetts.

[ravergirl]

I say no where, and hope im wrong. But i think it is conceptual not actual.

[The Puzzler]

I say no where, and hope im wrong. But i think it is conceptual not actual.

I think that sometimes but wonder whether Plato would have intentionally made the person of Solon, a genuinely respected person in ancient Greece, into a big liar or put words into his mouth he did not speak. Anyone else I'd say 'yeah' but Solon?????

[ravergirl]

I think that sometimes but wonder whether Plato would have intentionally made the person of Solon, a genuinely respected person in ancient Greece, into a big liar or put words into his mouth he did not speak. Anyone else I'd say 'yeah' but Solon?????

Oh so Plato said Solon said something? That wouldn't hold water in ancient or modern courts. sorry it's hearsay. I mean by all means believe as you do, but take a look at the way other philosophers work. I mean they are not scientists or historians they are thinkers, idea makers, and are wrong A LOT.

[The Puzzler]

Oh so Plato said Solon said something? That wouldn't hold water in ancient or modern courts. sorry it's hearsay. I mean by all means believe as you do, but take a look at the way other philosophers work. I mean they are not scientists or historians they are thinkers, idea makers, and are wrong A LOT.

Ancients courts did away with Socrates for being a free thinker and modern courts - well need I say more - the justice system is a sham.

Like I said anyone other than Solon, yes, but Solon, no, I don't think so. Plato was not a historian I know, I even said that myself once, but he was not setting out to tell us history, he was incorporating what he heard was history. Many novels are not history but are historical fiction based in history, one of my favourite authors does just that all the time. Jean Plaidy writes historical fiction based in real historic events. It's a common thing.

[The Puzzler]

I say no where, and hope im wrong. But i think it is conceptual not actual.

Let me ask this:

WHY do YOU think it would be complete fiction? Just interested in people's reasons in why they don't believe it.

[ravergirl]

Plato isn't a novelist. It was his niche to come up with possibilities. In a time where VERY little was understood about anything.

I don't think that it is complete fiction. It is likely "concerns" Plato had about the direction or progress, morality, ethics, government, discovery, and war and he focused it on something that the people he was talking to could relate to. Don't high school and college teachers use metaphors to explain things that are difficult to handle or are offensive to ease the blow?

[The Puzzler]

Plato isn't a novelist. It was his niche to come up with possibilities. In a time where VERY little was understood about anything.

I don't think that it is complete fiction. It is likely "concerns" Plato had about the direction or progress, morality, ethics, government, discovery, and war and he focused it on something that the people he was talking to could relate to. Don't high school and college teachers use metaphors to explain things that are difficult to handle or are offensive to ease the blow?

Sure, that makes sense and once I did think it was just allegory but now I think it is an historic event woven into his story albeit very loosely based on the event and not in the time frame of 9000 years before Solon.

Edited July 14, 2008 by weareallsuckers

[The Puzzler]

Plato isn't a novelist. It was his niche to come up with possibilities. In a time where VERY little was understood about anything.

I don't think that it is complete fiction. It is likely "concerns" Plato had about the direction or progress, morality, ethics, government, discovery, and war and he focused it on something that the people he was talking to could relate to. Don't high school and college teachers use metaphors to explain things that are difficult to handle or are offensive to ease the blow?

Sorry I had to go before but wanted to make another comment that I think what you say is true here:

It is likely "concerns" Plato had about the direction or progress, morality, ethics, government, discovery, and war and he focused it on something that the people he was talking to could relate to.

but why would that stop him from adding in some truth?

[ravergirl]

Sorry I had to go before but wanted to make another comment that I think what you say is true here:

It is likely "concerns" Plato had about the direction or progress, morality, ethics, government, discovery, and war and he focused it on something that the people he was talking to could relate to.

but why would that stop him from adding in some truth?

Nothing would.

But history repeats itself is a common teaching/learning factor i.e. if you touch the stove you will get burned. If you p*** of the Spartans they will fight you. So in earnestness.....wait a minute. See the thing is that im not a philosopher, i just think that the best way to get people to believe the danger of the future is to recall the catastrophies of the past. I just don't recall having heard of anything that cataclysmic and so I think that the "facts" were "borrowed" and thus Atlantis was born. The end (change) justifying the means.

but seriously if they really find Atlantis I will totally drop my point, I just don't know if it can be found because it might only exist on paper.

[The Puzzler]

Nothing would.

But history repeats itself is a common teaching/learning factor i.e. if you touch the stove you will get burned. If you p*** of the Spartans they will fight you. So in earnestness.....wait a minute. See the thing is that im not a philosopher, i just think that the best way to get people to believe the danger of the future is to recall the catastrophies of the past. I just don't recall having heard of anything that cataclysmic and so I think that the "facts" were "borrowed" and thus Atlantis was born. The end (change) justifying the means.

but seriously if they really find Atlantis I will totally drop my point, I just don't know if it can be found because it might only exist on paper.

Cool. I know, it's a toughy, I have become quite immersed in the whole Atlantology thing because of the enigma surrounding it. There really is no right and wrong answers.

Quite addictive.

[ravergirl]

Cool. I know, it's a toughy, I have become quite immersed in the whole Atlantology thing because of the enigma surrounding it. There really is no right and wrong answers.

Quite addictive.

But see, that is getting lost in the enigma of it. there IS a right and wrong answer and no one since Plato knows what the heck it is. Only that searching for it (and other myths) has given way to a great many other discoveries advancing our cultures in the direction that Atlantis went. Philisophically speaking searching for Atlantis is kind of turning the world into atlantis. maybe we are going to sink into the sea in a single day and night.

[The Puzzler]

But see, that is getting lost in the enigma of it. there IS a right and wrong answer and no one since Plato knows what the heck it is. Only that searching for it (and other myths) has given way to a great many other discoveries advancing our cultures in the direction that Atlantis went. Philisophically speaking searching for Atlantis is kind of turning the world into atlantis. maybe we are going to sink into the sea in a single day and night.

good thoughts.........and on that note I'm off to bed to think about your post.

[MARAB0D]

Ancients courts did away with Socrates for being a free thinker and modern courts - well need I say more - the justice system is a sham.

Like I said anyone other than Solon, yes, but Solon, no, I don't think so. Plato was not a historian I know, I even said that myself once, but he was not setting out to tell us history, he was incorporating what he heard was history. Many novels are not history but are historical fiction based in history, one of my favourite authors does just that all the time. Jean Plaidy writes historical fiction based in real historic events. It's a common thing.

You are not exactly correct about Socrates. He WAS a criminal from the point of view of the Law, Thucidides gives full details of this legal case. I can briefly re-tell it: Spartans had a sea battle with Athenians (it was Peloponnesys War) and Athenian fleet make Spartan ships to flee. Athenian navarchs ordered the chase, as their ships were faster; but several Athenian trieres were sunk by the Spartans and their crews were in water, so Athenians forgot about them in the chase. This moment storm happened, and those sailors in water died, while the Spartan ships managed to escape. Because of this Athenian court sentenced all naval commanders of that battle to exile; also popular vote passed the Law, that anyone rising voice in defense of those navarchs must be sentenced to death. Socrates ignored that law and made a public speech, trying to persuade the Athenians to return the navarchs from exile for them to govern Athenian fleet in war - so he was sentenced to death. Important thing that Hellenic culture knew no jails, those were used only to hold prisoners before the court, while the punishments could be either physical, or a fine or death.

The situation very much resembles today's situation with Holocaust - many countries consider public denying of Holocaust a criminal offence and violators are prosecuted. Lex dura dura lex!