McCain and Obama on Patriotism

[__Kratos__]

A Cause Greater Than Self

by John McCain

(Page 1)

Patriotism means more than holding your hand over your heart during the national anthem. It means more than walking into a voting booth every two or four years and pulling a lever. Patriotism is a love and a duty, a love of country expressed in good citizenship.

Patriotism and the citizenship it requires should motivate the conduct of public officials, but it also thrives in the communal spaces where government is absent, anywhere Americans come together to govern their lives and their communities — in families, churches, synagogues, museums, symphonies, the Little League, the Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts, the Salvation Army or the VFW. They are the habits and institutions that preserve democracy. They are the ways, small and large, we come together as one country, indivisible, with freedom and justice for all. They are the responsible exercise of freedom and are indispensable to the proper functioning of a democracy. Patriotism is countless acts of love, kindness and courage that have no witness or heraldry and are especially commendable because they are unrecorded.

The patriot must not just accept, but in his or her own way protect the ideals that gave birth to our country: to stand against injustice and for the rights of all and not just one's own interests. The patriot honors the duties, the loyalties, the inspirations and the habits of mind that bind us together as Americans.

We are the heirs and caretakers of freedom — a blessing preserved with the blood of heroes down through the ages. One cannot go to Arlington Cemetery and see name upon name, grave upon grave, row upon row, without being deeply moved by the sacrifice made by those young men and women.

And those of us who live in this time, who are the beneficiaries of their sacrifice, must do our smaller and less dangerous part to protect what they gave everything to defend, lest we lose our own love of liberty.

Love of country is another way of saying love of your fellow countrymen — a truth I learned a long time ago in a country very different from ours. Patriotism is another way of saying service to a cause greater than self-interest.

More of the article here: Link (Page 1)

A Faith in Simple Dreams

by Barack Obama

(Page 2)

When I was a child, I lived overseas for a time with my mother. And one of my earliest memories is of her reading to me the first lines of the Declaration of Independence, explaining how its ideas applied to every American, black and white and brown alike. She taught me that those words, and the words of the United States Constitution, protected us from the brutal injustices we witnessed other people suffer during those years abroad.

I've been reminded of this recently as I've followed the brutal injustice surrounding Zimbabwe's so-called elections. For weeks, the opposition party and its supporters have been silently hunted, tortured and killed. They have been dragged from their homes in the middle of the night and strangled while their children watched. The wife of a newly elected mayor was so badly beaten that her own brother only recognized her by the skirt she wore on the day she was killed. Even voters suspected of disloyalty to the President have been herded together and thrashed for hours, all for the simple crime of casting their ballot.

We are a nation of strong and varied convictions and beliefs. We argue and debate our differences vigorously and often. But when all is said and done, we still come together as one people and pledge our allegiance not just to a place on a map or a certain leader but to the words my mother read to me years ago: "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

That is the true genius of America — a faith in simple dreams, an insistence on small miracles. It's the idea that we can tuck in our children at night and know that they are fed and clothed and safe from harm; that we can say what we think, write what we think, without hearing a sudden knock on the door; that we can have an idea and start our own business without paying a bribe; that we can participate in the political process without fear of retribution; and that our votes will be counted.

More of the article here: Link (Page 2)

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Read through both articles today in my Time, I thought I would post it here for people to read.

Edited June 27, 2008 by __Kratos__

[sear]

"Patriotism means more than ..." Senator John McCain [R-AZ]

Senator McCain:

Shame on you.

You have earned respect for your faithful service.

But do not squander your integrity on your implication that (for example) without U.S. military service, a U.S. citizen is less patriotic.

Mohammad Ali was a conscientious objector. He spent his time, not on the battle field, but behind bars; his punishment for staying true to his religious beliefs.

Do you think you're more patriotic than Mohammad Ali Senator McCain?

Senator McCain,

I too am an honorably discharged United States military Vietnam era veteran. But Senator McCain. I was not taken prisoner.

Shall we infer from this that I am a more patriotic citizen than you are, because while you were held prisoner, I was at duty station?

"Patriotism, the last refuge of a scoundrel."

I expect better from you than this Senator McCain. Making thinly veiled suggestions against candidate Obama is unworthy of you. It is unworthy of U.S.

Please do not destroy the honor and reputation you have earned sir. As Andrew Carnegie said: "All honors wounds are self-inflicted."

Your honor, your reputation, your fate is in your own hands Senator McCain. Please do not ever forget that.

[InHuman]

They both make solid points. But I've heard 1 more then I've heard the other.

[questionmark]

"Patriotism, the last refuge of a scoundrel."

Durn, you beat me to the Johnston quote...

[Homer]

Shame on you.

You have earned respect for your faithful service.

But do not squander your integrity on your implication that (for example) without U.S. military service, a U.S. citizen is less patriotic.

sear, I didn’t see this the way you did. First I want to be clear that I don’t support McCain, so this isn’t about that, but I thought he said some good things regarding patriotism. although he stated:

One cannot go to Arlington Cemetery and see name upon name, grave upon grave, row upon row, without being deeply moved by the sacrifice made by those young men and women.

But next he stated: "And those of us who live in this time, who are the beneficiaries of their sacrifice, must do our smaller and less dangerous part to protect what they gave everything to defend, lest we lose our own love of liberty."

He also stated:

Love of country is another way of saying love of your fellow countrymen — a truth I learned a long time ago in a country very different from ours.

Obviously the country in reference is Viet Nam, but I read this statement more as his example of where he learned the truth of love of country, and not that he thinks he’s more patriotic because of his experiences. His very next sentence was: “Patriotism is another way of saying service to a cause greater than self-interest.” If you take that whole paragraph together, it implies to me that he didn’t learn ‘love of country’ and a ‘greater cause’ while he served in the armed forces, but only after he became a POW.

He also stated:

I hope more Americans would consider enlisting in our armed forces.

But he said next “I hope more would consider running for public office or working in federal, state and local governments. But there are many public causes where your service can make our country a stronger, better one than we inherited.”

But aside from those 3 military related statements, he stated:

Patriotism is a love and a duty, a love of country expressed in good citizenship.

and:

Patriotism and the citizenship it requires should motivate the conduct of public officials, but it also thrives in the communal spaces where government is absent, anywhere Americans come together to govern their lives and their communities — in families, churches, synagogues, museums, symphonies, the Little League, the Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts, the Salvation Army or the VFW.

and:

The patriot must not just accept, but in his or her own way protect the ideals that gave birth to our country: to stand against injustice and for the rights of all and not just one's own interests.

I may be naïve, and failing to read between the lines, but I didn’t read any of that ‘you’re more patriotic if you enlist’ crap

[Incorrigible1]

Homer, in my humble opinion, yours is far and away the lesser opinion that could ever be described as "knee-jerk."

[sear]

qm,

Next time, the typing practice is yours. (it's the obvious quotation in this context)

"sear, I didn’t see this the way you did. First I want to be clear that I don’t support McCain, so this isn’t about that, but I thought he said some good things regarding patriotism. although he stated ..." Homer

I know.

But there are things explicit. And there are things implicit.

So what?

So U.S. Senator McCain is in an election campaign for President of the United States.

Candidate McCain has disadvantages against his political rival, the Democrat likely to run for that office.

So McCain is following the familiar formula: "accentuate the positive".

Clearly McCain is not Senator Obama's equal in intellect.

Nor is McCain Senator Obama's equal in physical stamina germane to holding Presidential office.

That office multiplies the aging process, as photographs of U.S. Presidents before and after attest.

And these candidates are not *****-footing around.

They don't campaign on Tuesdays, work on their stamp collection on Wednesdays, and spend the rest of the week making some extra cash bagging groceries at the Piggley Wiggley.

Except for sleep, these guys are campaigning ~24/7, until the last ballot is cast; with only brief, desperately needed mini-vacations.

So when candidate McCain mentions "patriotism", it's not some casual conversation that has nothing to do with his campaign in general, or Obama in particular.

McCain doesn't have to say "Obama isn't a U.S. military combat veteran."

Simply raising the topic of "patriotism" is enough to call the implicit (even if not explicit) contrasts to the minds of those to whom McCain speaks.

It's a very thinly veiled swipe at Obama. And in my opinion, it's not equal to the integrity Senator McCain is obliged by his station to manifest.

[Homer]

It's a very thinly veiled swipe at Obama.

I suppose you're right, but I honestly hadn't thought of it like that. See, I told you I was naïve

But still, this is politics in an election year, and the Obama juggernaut seems unbeatable. I see this less as McCain swiping at Obama, and more of McCain trying to put separation in a topic that would seem to favour him. Sort of highlighting himself without insulting the other party.

Poor naïve Homer...he'll believe anything

[IronGhost]

I would like to see less hot blather about patriotism from both these guys. The whole concept of partiotism is basically bulls***

I wish some candidates would spend more time talking about things like how are we going to establish the first colony on Mars, or build massive space stations in L5 orbit.

Both McCain and Obama's partiotism rap is basically nickel and dime philosophy that churns endlessly around on itself -- it does nothing for anyone but provide vague ideas about vague concepts of society.

[sear]

Homer,

I appreciate your apparent objective efforts here. But I'm not entirely comfortable with McCain's beliefs expressed here. For example:

"Patriotism is a love ..." McCain

?

I might not have known it if I hadn't lived in (then West) Germany for several years.

But U.S. citizens use the word "love" in ways that amuse those in some other cultures.

I don't think loving one's own country is a crime.

But I don't think being appreciative, without love of country should be deemed a hangin' offense either.

"... and a duty, ..." McCain

Now we're in more alarming territory.

"Patriotism" is "a duty"?

patriotism (pâ´trê-e-tîz´em) noun

Love of and devotion to one's country.

Excerpted from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.

My country is run upon roughshod by a dangerous, ruthless, loose cannon of a government.

That government has overthrown national leaders in both Iraq, and Iran (Afghanistan, & elsewhere). And it's gotten into untold additional mischief in Central and South America.

Any doubters should Google “Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation”. It's formerly known as "School of the Americas (SOA)".

It's regarded by some as a combat training school for Latin American dictators. The reality isn't much more flattering.

Not only is my country's government treacherous abroad. It's even treacherous if not treasonous at home.

Its Wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are not the only two Wars it's fighting. It's also fighting is "War against Drugs" at home. And as we should all realize by now, it isn't really a "War against Drugs". It's a War against U.S. citizens.

There's only one crime defined in the U.S. Constitution. Apparently this one crime in particular was deemed as very serious by the Founders that wrote our Constitution.

That crime is the crime of treason.

ARTICLE 3. SECTION 3.

1 Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War Against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. ..."

There are two elements to this definition. Meeting either test constitutes Treason.

Drug War meets BOTH tests.

So our own government continues to wage bloody, ruthless, treacherous, punitive War against its own People; and it's our "duty" to "love" it in return?!?!

Sure. That'll happen. When the cows come home wearing plaid golf pants.

Love must be earned. And it pains me deeply to recognize that our government, and thus our nation is not worthy.

And while McCain's smug -my fudge don't stink- / -holier than thou- attitude here may be self-satisfying for him; it's both simpleminded, and wrong-headed.

McCain brandishes his age and tenure like it's something to be proud of; as if younger citizens are less worthy; less than peers.

But with all Senator McCain's tenure; he bears more responsibility for being party to this conspiracy to treason of his than Senator Obama does.

I like McCain. In Y2K he had my vote assured (but we couldn't get him on the ballot in November).

But his ~half decade of captivity in the Hanoi Hilton seems to have nudged him off course a tad.

If the United States of America wants its citizens to be loyal to it, to protect it, to love it; then it should stop waging bloody treacherous War against them. It should be loyal to, and protect those citizens; and not terrorize, incarcerate, and oppress them (us, our own countrymen).

"... a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, .... Time makes more converts than reason." Thomas Paine / Common Sense

"The despotism of custom is everywhere the standing hindrance to human advancement." John Stuart Mill 1806 - 1873

"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded."

Abraham Lincoln (1809-65), U.S. president. Speech, 18 Dec. 1840, to Illinois House of Representatives

Illinois? Did you say "Illinois House of Representatives"?

[Homer]

Homer,

I appreciate your apparent objective efforts here.

Sear,

You’re making me seem like a McCain fan, which I’m not. I have made a lot of posts on political threads here and have never supported McCain or Obama on any of them because quite frankly, I don't like either of them. So I truly am trying to be objective. But I just think you’re blowing this out of proportion. There are plenty of things McCain stated in his patriotism article that I can dispute also, but I think this is more politics than patriotism anyways, as this is his way of trying to sway those ‘patriotic, flag-waving, pick-up truck driving, cowboy boots wearing, country music listening’ type voters why they better not vote for Obama. Politics.

I do understand, and agree, with your assessment on how bad our government is, and why should we be patriotic(to love and defend) to our government?

I looked up patriotism in the dictionary, and it only mentioned the national level. What about serving the community at the local level, such as being active in the church or being a little league coach or joining boy/girl scouts. These things may not make one a better person, but I certainly don’t think it’s wrong for someone to write about it, as McCain did.

To me the bottom line is, although I’m not really disagreeing with you in principle, I just think you’re making too much of this. He is just trying to gain political points with the type of people that would find these ‘patriotic’ issues important

[sear]

"You’re making me seem like a McCain fan, which I’m not." Homer

I deduce by the fact that you highlighted in bold the word "apparent", that your issue lies there. It ought not.

apparent (e-pàr´ent, e-pâr´-) adjective

1. Readily seen; visible.

2. Readily understood; clear or obvious. *

I claim no supernatural powers here Homer. I don't know what's in your mind. But I am strongly inclined to reflexively grant benefit of doubt.

Until I have unambiguous evidence that you are either a) not objective, or a McCain supporter, I shall not consider deeming you that way or in any way other way.

"So I truly am trying to be objective." Homer

Then my comment was precisely right. Thank you for confirming.

"But I just think you’re blowing this out of proportion." Homer

Define "this".

"This" one quotation?

Or "this" issue in general? McCain has had lots more to say about patriotism in the context of his own Presidential qualifications. And he's been saying it at length since he joined the race (& long before).

His comment to Senator Clinton about the Woodstock museum comes to mind.

I poorly paraphrase from weak and fading memory McCain (I'm missing the words, but capturing the important gist in this context): [correction by exact quote is gratefully invited]

- I've heard it was a well attended pharmacological event, but I didn't attend it. I was tied up at the time. - McCain

Now clearly, he's NOT saying:

- I'm superior to you because I served in combat, I was taken prisoner, I was tortured, I was offered an early trip home, I didn't take it, I'm Mr. Fabulous. -

NO! He's NOT saying that.

BUT!!

He is bringing it up, again and again and again, in creative, subtle ways, because he seems to feel it's a qualification to his benefit (otherwise he'd keep it quiet).

And if that make him the superior candidate, then by definition, that makes the other candidate inferior.

That is inescapable logic.

"There are plenty of things McCain stated in his patriotism article that I can dispute also, but I think this is more politics than patriotism anyways, as this is his way of trying to sway those ‘patriotic, flag-waving, pick-up truck driving, cowboy boots wearing, country music listening’ type voters why they better not vote for Obama. Politics." Homer

Well if that's what you think sir, then we have absolutely no quarrel here. For my conclusion is quite similar; except that (for questionmark's benefit):

"Patriotism, the last refuge of a scoundrel."

I'm not calling McCain a scoundrel. But I am suggesting that the cumulative affect of some of his behavior hints at it.

So let's not overdo that Senator McCain. OK?

"I looked up patriotism in the dictionary, and it only mentioned the national level. What about serving the community at the local level ..." Homer

I believe I omitted it due to brevity. But my reaction was much the same. Rather than jingoism, why not humanitarianism?

To love one's own country more means, by definition, to love other countries less. And that's fertile ground for no end of arrogant, self-righteous mischief.

I love all nations and all Peoples equally, because it is my duty as a human being to do so.

* Excerpted from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.

PS

On the over-doing it thing Homer:

Republicans have a pattern of this. The following are generalizations. I'm not asserting it applies to all Republicans. Instead I'm observing that it's a familiar pattern in the Republican party.

They think they're superior patriots to Democrats.

They think they're morally superior on religion.

They think they're morally superior about abortion.

They think they're morally superior about sex.

They think they're morally superior about same sex marriage.

And frankly, I find it offensive. And it is that context in which I respond to this issue. It's just more of the same.

And in my opinion, if someone thinks themself superior when they're not, then by reason of their own false self-pride, they are actually inferior.

I prefer to think of us as equals.

[Homer]

I deduce by the fact that you highlighted in bold the word "apparent", that your issue lies there. It ought not.

I don't know what I'm thinking sometimes

Define "this".

By blowing 'this' out of proportion I just meant by your original post on this thread when you stated the 'shame on you' etc etc.

To be honest with you, I haven't been keeping up on McCain too much, so I just recently(as in the past hour ) noticed(as you have been saying ) that McCain does keep bringing up the patriotism card over and over. So I must concede your point.

I claim no supernatural powers here Homer. I don't know what's in your mind.

Not to worry, because I don't know whats in my mind either. In fact, merely suggesting that I have a mind is quite the compliment.