2+2=4 equates a certainty of god

[churchanddestroy]

Who said anything about sound judgment, that is the whole point of my post...

We must abandon our own judgement to meet God, that is how it works. It is called the 1st step of faith... Those who would use their judgment will never experience that because they fear the loss of control too much...

So wait... in order to come to know this being, who is omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent, we must not use the tools that he gave us, i.e. our minds, because he doesn't want us to. Even though he gave us minds. So basically thats like giving a kid presents at Christmas and telling him never to open them, only with God if we do open our presents the punishment is eternal torture and hellfire. Yeah, makes a lot of sense.

[drakonwick]

Then why did God give us minds?

Personally, I've always thought the mind was there for us to think, learn, and make our own conclusions.

I understand the 2+2=4 (God) analogy. It has to do with personal beliefs, they use the 2+2=God analogy,

Because, (To them), thats how sure that God exists. It's like using 2+2=4 to describe how sure you know

that fire is hot.

[Dr. D]

This is what your judment says, and that is why by making the choice you do, you are moving away from God... as I stated to Sheri.

And by making the choice you make, you are moving away from reality . . . . as I stated to Sheri.

[Fluffybunny]

The 1st lesson that we learn as infants is, we need to trust him in all things, since he won't let us down. From there we grow and become more what God intended for us to be, still using our minds but now uniquely for his glory and his work rather than our own benefit and our own egos.

If God had wanted robots then that is what he would have created.

I take umbrage with the part I bolded. He lets people down all the time. Every second of every day.

Not too long ago I have a 3 month old baby who stopped breathing in the middle of the night.

I did CPR in front of mother, father, two siblings and grandparents, all of which were begging and pleading with all of their hearts for god to not let them down and let them have their little baby back. Praying out loud for help. These were good people. I did everything in my power to save him, but in the end that beautiful baby that never did anything wrong to anyone was dead.

I'd like to see you go tell that family that god wont let them down.

You let babies...innocent, beautiful babies die; you are a pretty pathetic god in my opinion.

[Jor-el]

I know Jorel you have to abandon sound judgement ?? why ????

Because over the millenia, we have allowed our minds to become concerned merely with the physical and this has affected all people to the point where they believe that their sound judment is logical.

This "logic" takes us further from the presence of God. Sure it has helped us in many ways, our civilization is miraculous compared to 1000 years ago, but it is also the invisible chain of a prison in our minds, believing that just because our "logic" and "evidence" says so it must be correct. It is a prison mind feeding itself.

[drakonwick]

Because over the millenia, we have allowed our minds to become concerned merely with the physical and this has affected all people to the point where they believe that their sound judment is logical.

This "logic" takes us further from the presence of God. Sure it has helped us in many ways, our civilization is miraculous compared to 1000 years ago, but it is also the invisible chain of a prison in our minds, believing that just because our "logic" and "evidence" says so it must be correct. It is a prison mind feeding itself.

I see your logic as flawed. Perhaps it is the other way around, and we have been becoming more free by not

letting the rules of some imaginary God run our lives.

See how logic works? Just because you think your right does not mean you are, people will always have different opinions.

Edited July 10, 2008 by Moro

[Jor-el]

I take umbrage with the part I bolded. He lets people down all the time. Every second of every day.

Not too long ago I have a 3 month old baby who stopped breathing in the middle of the night.

I did CPR in front of mother, father, two siblings and grandparents, all of which were begging and pleading with all of their hearts for god to not let them down and let them have their little baby back. Praying out loud for help. These were good people. I did everything in my power to save him, but in the end that beautiful baby that never did anything wrong to anyone was dead.

I'd like to see you go tell that family that god wont let them down.

You let babies...innocent, beautiful babies die; you are a pretty pathetic god in my opinion.

I could try and answer your post in a convincing way but in the end, that would make me sound callous. In the end even death is in his hands. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the End of all things, of life and death as well.

[Jor-el]

I see your logic as flawed. Perhaps it is the other way around, and we have been becoming more free by not

letting the rules of some imaginary God run our lives.

See how logic works? Just because you think your right does not mean you are, people will always have different opinions.

But then again, that is why we are all here, stating our opinions.

You may see the logic as flawed but I see you as one of the many thousands if not millions who live in Neros world, the Matrix

Edited July 10, 2008 by Jor-el

[Dr. D]

I take umbrage with the part I bolded. He lets people down all the time. Every second of every day.

Not too long ago I have a 3 month old baby who stopped breathing in the middle of the night.

I did CPR in front of mother, father, two siblings and grandparents, all of which were begging and pleading with all of their hearts for god to not let them down and let them have their little baby back. Praying out loud for help. These were good people. I did everything in my power to save him, but in the end that beautiful baby that never did anything wrong to anyone was dead.

I'd like to see you go tell that family that god wont let them down.

You let babies...innocent, beautiful babies die; you are a pretty pathetic god in my opinion.

And please tell that, " . . . he won't let you down" routine to the child in Africa drinking camel urine . . . . tell it to more than 30,000 villagers around Lake Tankanyika who died from the lack of nutrition. Tell it to world's street children and the disenfranchised. Tell it to the victims of Bush's aggression in Iraq or the maimed and disfigured from the heights of man's ignorance. Tell it to millions of children who sleep with hunger and the widows and abandoned . . . . and then tell us of how God acts in mysterious ways and that the poor will be with us always.

[Dr. D]

Because over the millenia, we have allowed our minds to become concerned merely with the physical and this has affected all people to the point where they believe that their sound judment is logical.

This "logic" takes us further from the presence of God. Sure it has helped us in many ways, our civilization is miraculous compared to 1000 years ago, but it is also the invisible chain of a prison in our minds, believing that just because our "logic" and "evidence" says so it must be correct. It is a prison mind feeding itself.

But that same 1000 years has featured missionary movements greater than ever known in history. Converts exceeded all numbers previously known and churches grew and prospered.

While this may sound like a generalization, I think it can be historically supported. But then your viewpoint of civilization was an equal generalization.

The very concept that logic removes us from God defies both logic and God. We were given, reportedly by God's own laws, a social system based upon logic and human dignity. We swear within a court to tell the truth, but then rely upon logic to reach verdicts that enforce those laws. This is not solely man's system . . . . but was founded upon mores introduced upon Mt. Sinai.

Why is it not conceivable that those whose lives are controlled by either a true God or an imaginary friend are mentally imprisoned? They are required to deny their own judgment and logic and surrender themselves completely to an entity that is based only upon 4th century words and the fraility of faith.

[+Sherapy]

I am constantly amazed at the willingness of most to invite confusion into their lives in the name of faith. To accept that concept, I must believe that there is an all-knowing God but I have free will. But if God knows what I will do because he is "all knowing," then my free will is negated by his absolute power. Now, I have seen every bit of exegesis Christians can throw to defend this absurdity, (God knows you will buy an ice cream, but he doesn't know which flavor . . . . please!) but it remains far beyond the point of logic and either reduces God to an entity who does not know everything or condemns man to being controlled by a destiny already prescribed by an omnipotent God.

In no way do I oppose the idea of a supreme power but I reject the imagry Christianity and Islam have created.

I do not dispute the wonders of life or the universe no argument there i live its magnificence, i see the wonder of the ocean from my window .... but alas I do dispute and oppose the creeds and canons that profess to explain it as a vegan living a no harm creed this would go counter to my beleifs ......

I think science is doing a fabulous job descriibng the process for me and its not static and its open to correction and in tune with the times.... ..

..when i want a moment of silence i just meditate or enjoy the view. or just have a good laugh to me laughter is simply divine and can lighten any moment...... ...

Edited July 11, 2008 by Supra Sheri

[drakonwick]

I do not dispute the wonders of life or the universe no argument there i live its magnificence i see the wonder of the ocean from my window . but alas I do dispute and oppose the creeds and canons that profess to explain it as a vegan living a no harm creed this woudl go counter to my beleifs.......I think science is doing a fabulous job descriibng the process for me and its not static and its open to correction and in tune with the times.... ....when i want a moment of silence i just meditate or enjoy the view. or just have a good laugh to me laughter is simply divine and can lighten any moment...... ...

Indeed Sheri! Those are some great thoughts.

[+Sherapy]

Indeed Sheri! Those are some great thoughts.

thankyou

I was getting really sad reading fluffy and ex ....Its so hard for me to reconcile a god real or imagined that knowingly allows for such harm ,..esepcially to someone that has spent their whole life following the word and been told over and over god loves you and god hears you just pray etc etc...then watches their baby die....

Edited July 11, 2008 by Supra Sheri

[Jor-el]

But that same 1000 years has featured missionary movements greater than ever known in history. Converts exceeded all numbers previously known and churches grew and prospered.

While this may sound like a generalization, I think it can be historically supported. But then your viewpoint of civilization was an equal generalization.

The very concept that logic removes us from God defies both logic and God. We were given, reportedly by God's own laws, a social system based upon logic and human dignity. We swear within a court to tell the truth, but then rely upon logic to reach verdicts that enforce those laws. This is not solely man's system . . . . but was founded upon mores introduced upon Mt. Sinai.

Why is it not conceivable that those whose lives are controlled by either a true God or an imaginary friend are mentally imprisoned? They are required to deny their own judgment and logic and surrender themselves completely to an entity that is based only upon 4th century words and the fraility of faith.

Earlier on I stated that it would be good to come to a consensus on what the spiritual world really is. I was ignored.

This is the key to understanding this whole concept and the discussion at hand.

I stated previously that what we call the spiritual world is part of the material physical universe yet it is undetectable or invisible. Just as atoms, molecules and quarks are a substrata of reality but are nonethelss undetectable and invisible to the naked eye.

I concieve the spiritual world to be a plane of reality ovelying our own and that what we call the "real world" is merely a "shadow of an image reflected off a wall". In effect the parallel of the Matrix is quite adequate to the discussion as I just stated.

As such the logic of the argument is that those who infact embrace the physical , denying the spiritual are the prisoners, I have simply taken the red pill.

Food for thought

Edited July 11, 2008 by Jor-el

[Dr. D]

Earlier on I stated that it would be good to come to a consensus on what the spiritual world really is. I was ignored.

This is the key to understanding this whole concept and the discussion at hand.

I stated previously that what we call the spiritual world is part of the material physical universe yet it is undetecatable or invisible. Just as atoms, molecules and quarks are a substrata of reality but are nonethelss undetectable and invisible to the naked eye.

I cocieve the spiritual world to be a plane of reality ovelying our own and that what we call the "real world" is merely a "shadow of an image reflected off a wall". In effect the prallel of the Matrix is quite adquate to the discussion as I just stated.

As such the logic of the argument is that those who infact embrace the physical , denying the spiritual are the prisoners, I have simply taken the red pill.

Food for thought

And can this spiritual world exist without a God?

We can, after all, detect, view, measure and witness atoms, molecules and quarks. We can even watch sub atomic particles move faster than the speed of light and into the past to a place unknown. That is done in the real world where science performs its miracles not beyond the naked eye, but from the creative powers of the human mind.

The spiritual world is accepted by countless belief systems but many function without a God.

One does not need to deny the spiritual in order to accept the physical or vice versa. But the belief system noted within this thread demands such denials in order to realize a God established by faith alone.

[+Sherapy]

Earlier on I stated that it would be good to come to a consensus on what the spiritual world really is. I was ignored.

This is the key to understanding this whole concept and the discussion at hand.

I stated previously that what we call the spiritual world is part of the material physical universe yet it is undetectable or invisible. Just as atoms, molecules and quarks are a substrata of reality but are nonethelss undetectable and invisible to the naked eye.

I concieve the spiritual world to be a plane of reality ovelying our own and that what we call the "real world" is merely a "shadow of an image reflected off a wall". In effect the parallel of the Matrix is quite adequate to the discussion as I just stated.

As such the logic of the argument is that those who infact embrace the physical , denying the spiritual are the prisoners, I have simply taken the red pill.

Food for thought

Jorel so are neutrinos yet science came up with a way to find them ...

It took 30 years....

check into Quantum physics and quantum Mechanics its very interesting if nothing else...science is moving in this direction....

[Jor-el]

And can this spiritual world exist without a God?

We can, after all, detect, view, measure and witness atoms, molecules and quarks. We can even watch sub atomic particles move faster than the speed of light and into the past to a place unknown. That is done in the real world where science performs its miracles not beyond the naked eye, but from the creative powers of the human mind.

The spiritual world is accepted by countless belief systems but many function without a God.

One does not need to deny the spiritual in order to accept the physical or vice versa. But the belief system noted within this thread demands such denials in order to realize a God established by faith alone.

Who do you think created the spiritual world in the 1st place?

[Jor-el]

Jorel so are neutrinos yet science came up with a way to find them ...

It took 30 years....

check into Quantum physics and quantum Mechanics its very interesting if nothing else...science is moving in this direction....

Did I say we would never be able to detect this "higher plane of existence" in the future? NO

We just can't do it with todays science.

Edited July 11, 2008 by Jor-el

[MissMelsWell]

Better watch out Sheri... meditation is what led me to God in the first place

He might get you too. Oh oh. Big trouble. BIG trouble.

Edited July 11, 2008 by MissMelsWell

[+Sherapy]

Did I say we would never be able to detect this "higher plane of existence" in the future? NO

We just can't do it with todays science.

when you put up an idea the critical analysis is the most helpful aspect its not personal...it helps refine and clarify your idea for your understanding .. to see how it holds up.... ...if it can...... what to change... what to keep...what to scrap I know you know this jorel so remember this is not personal against you ...

i think science is pretty capable..... Now ..i wouldn't be so quick to write them off IMO ...I have taken a few physics classes and its pretty amazing what science is capable of...

now of course its not the 'new god' just a disicipline that happens to be a great expression of what the mind is capable of that keeps limits to a bare minimum.....and is a big advocate of self correction and testability and replicability (good science).. thats why findings are published......

Edited July 11, 2008 by Supra Sheri

[Jor-el]

when you put up an idea i the critical analysis is the most helpful aspect its not personal...it helps refine and caklrify your idea for you ...

i think science is pretty capable..... Now ..i wouldn't be so quick to write them off IMO ...I have taken a few physics classes and its pretty amazing waht science is capable of...

now of course its not the 'new god' jsut a disicipline that happens to be a great expression of what the mind is capable of that keeps limits to a bare minimum.....and is a big advocate of self correction and testability and replicability l.. thats why findings are published......

And I have no problem at all with the above, I even rely on science as well in most areas of my life.

The point is that one cannot reject what science is not yet equiped to prove, just because it cannot yet be proven... Scientists also believed man could never fly, look how that turned out...

Like many of us "christians" keep saying, science isn't bad or good, it is a tool, but one that is not yet mature enough to answer these questions yet... that is no reason to dismiss the concept of the spiritual world and of God, which is pretty much what many of you are saying...

Edited July 11, 2008 by Jor-el

[+Sherapy]

And I have no problem at all with the above, I even rely on science as well in most areas of my life.

The point is that one cannot reject what science is not yet equiped to prove, just because it cannot yet be proven... Scientists also believed man could never fly, look how that turned out...

Like many of us "christians" keep saying, science isn't bad or good, it is a tool, but one that is not yet mature enough to answer these questions yet... that is no reason to dismiss the concept of the spiritual world and of God, which is pretty much what many of you are saying...

i agree with some of this i recognize sceince for what it is and i recognize religion for what it is...

its an antiquated system that can't help us with our modern day issues, even the basic simple ones...Such as conflict resolution, parenting ( i recently got a alternative way of child care implemented for those who choose to parent in non violence and no longer use the traditonal reward/punishment methods at my local YMCA).

We are moving away from so many things that we once used because we know more.... it can't help with communication skills, understanding the world we live in or self awareness ( as it teaches one to deny the self in favor of an outside at present an invisible agent, so it really teaches dependency not self reliance or self responsibility ) ..... let alone getting along with someone who is different with you or disagrees with you ..

How about sexual differences, i am not even really getting into the fear tthat surrounds the embracing of ones sexuality that is natural to the human experience .....nope it can't help here........

gosh, the issues we have now with global warming and the things to solve them religion can't help yet it claims it can,it claims it can do alot of things that it just can't...... .....

often through the suggestion to pray, well prayer imo is the same as doing nothing ..don't you think its to get up and be the changes get proactive and responsible fro ourselves..............

finally, one of its major trips is to exclude so many if not all the other disicplines as useless and absurd..such as science and evolution for cripes sake....( not all christians do this but alot do) .we can read many threads on here to support this posit....

this leads to ignorance not effectiveness IMO ... ..........

Now not all christians adhere to this of course there is a wonderful side many redefining the face of religion in many ways and I am all for it to be honest , we are moving away from a fear based construct, an arrogance based posit and i credit the religious for stepping up to the plate those that do .. in support of these changes.....and i think its gonna be alot more too ...it will have to or religion cannot survive in its current form ....

jorel .if you dig the ritual and tradition of a religion, hey great for you and I sincerely mean this .....

if anything i'd say buddhism is the hot new movement, diesm and agnostism is huge. Paganism is popular with the young ones...coming up ... ..

i think its time to celebrate our growing pains, to look forward to growing up thats what man is doing he is growing up and in the process somethings aren't gonna be useful anymore but new things replace them... this is life this is incredible change is life........there are so many alternatives, i myself have a blast checking them all out i always walk away richer for it but I dont have to sign on any dotted lines and its all good......

Edited July 11, 2008 by Supra Sheri

[Lt_Ripley]

Who do you think created the spiritual world in the 1st place?

how about Man ? not being able to answer questions like what happens after we die ? very logical. that would soothe and give hope. but that doesn't make it real. and as time goes on this myth becomes ingrained into our psyche as a culture. Man tends to make up answers for questions that have no answer.

[Mr Walker]

i get this Daniel but me being female, dosent automatically create a foregone conclusion there is a god... not to mention I can see

by looking I have female parts, i have many ways available to support this but thats all it supports or shows is that certain labels equate female......it doesn't warrant a leap to certainlty of purple dragons....

Im sorry if this has been addressed in the 14 intervening pages. This post has just grown like topsy.

I will get to read them, But daniels q and supras response illustrated to me perfectly how i know god exists. My knowledge consists of two parts. a definition and then evidence/criteria that meets that definition.

It probably doesnt matter which you tackle first, but lets take definition "god" is a generic form like female. Just as there are many shapes forms etc which still qualify as female, so there are a variety of shapes and forms which qualify as god. All are simply social labels designed for definition and ease of communications. None the less, to be female you must meet certain specific criteria, and definitely not meet others.

The same with god. To meet the accepted classical or culturaly acceptable definition, you must meet certain criteria. These are slightly less clear than those for being female, but might include.

The ability to manipulate the universe in ways which appear magical (in fact they may be achieved by science or through the innate nature of god)

The ability to exist, apart from linear time (thus appearing to have no beginning and no end,) and perhaps actually having an extremely long life.

Another attribute of a god is usually that they display interest in and involvement with sentient beings. Thus, they are sentient them selves, and display certain, probably universal, sentient qualities like; curiousity creativity etc.

People have often constructed the idea of gods which are omniscient and omnipotent, particularly the abrahamic versions, but this is actually not possible given the nature of the universe, and the other definition of god, in intervening in sentient's lives. A god which is universal, and omnipetent, and omniscient, would have no need to intervene in something he already knew the outcomes for.

The most interesting question is, how did these common criteria for god arrive? Those without any experience of god will tend to claim that they are purely human constructs, modelled on the nature of humanity, and employed for many psychological purposes some valid, some not so.

But those who have experienced god, in any of the diverse forms he manifests, recognise something else. There is a general commonality in the contacts which leads to a generalised but recognisable set of criteria for god. So for us, the construction of criteria for god is not an intellectual exercise based on what we should like to see god as, but one of comparing our own experiences, with the recorded experiences of others so that we can get an accurate general description

This is of course how a definition for female comes about. It is constructed from the experiences of people, who then come to a commonly acccepted definition. If i want to find out if some one is female, I can either experience her for myself or check her out against that common criteria. And so people can do with god. What i cannot accurately do, is construct an idealised definition of female, if it actually contradicts the basic definition, based on observation etc of what a female is.

That brings us to the second part of how my knowledge of god evolved. It was like my knowledge of females. In gods case, i had the experiences first then did the research, verification and social background, second.

In the case of females, i started with äcademic research Eg, play boy, checked the commonly accepted definitions, social backgrounds and expectations next,(through general social interaction and real academic research,) and only finally got round to physical verification.

But, both with god and with females, i know they exist, because we have a commonly accepted definition, and because both research and personal experience show that something exists which meets those criteria.

In my case those experiences are both quite unusual and compelling. Many people never have one such experience, let alone a life time of them.

(here i must, somewhat sadly, point out that i am talking about my experiences with god, not with females, which is another story completely)

However, many of these people seem to come to that same 2+2= 4, knowledge of god, through a varied combination of, the socially accepted model of god meeting their life experiences, and perhaps a more spiritual, (real but not physical) manifestation of god in their lives.

The people i admire the most, but cannot comprehend, are those like my wife ,who never have any physical proof of god in their lives, and yet have such an absolute knowledge of gods existence that they would happily die for that faith based knowledge. I also would happily die for god, but only because i know he exists through physical evidence in my life. I could not do so for faith, no matter how strongly held.

Edited July 11, 2008 by Mr Walker

[danielost]

I have been to Australia and in itself that proves the greater point.

The weakness of your argument is in the restriction you propose, ". . . . just as Australia is self evident without going there so is God and heaven."

The fact remains that Australia is accessible to anyone who wants to physically witness it.

God is not.

Heaven is not.

And it is easy to dismiss the concept with the suggestion that those who do not accept it ". . . . refuse to." That gives the idea that the existence of God and Heaven are absolute and those denying it "refuse to" accept their reality.

personal experience doesn't count sorry,