2+2=4 equates a certainty of god

[Ownagebus]

Lets talk: 2+2=4 = God Exists.

Ok, so how about... 2-2=0 = God Does Not Exist.

Its all a matter of personal perception.

In all actuality "2+2=4" has nothing to do with God Existing. If God is not man made, but 2+2=4 is man made... How does those prove anything at all?

[Agent. Mulder]

Lets talk: 2+2=4 = God Exists.

Ok, so how about... 2-2=0 = God Does Not Exist.

Its all a matter of personal perception.

In all actuality "2+2=4" has nothing to do with God Existing. If God is not man made, but 2+2=4 is man made... How does those prove anything at all?

thats the conclusion many come to. although i think he was trying to point out that 2+2 = 4. meaning, in thier opinion, that means theres a god. its basically faith based, but not an absolute at all.

[Dr. D]

(Hebrews 9:27-28)

Using Scripture to deal with a question within Scripture is like throwing water on a drowning man.

Did the people say that they believed Jesus was Elijah returned or not????

That is the question.

[Omnaka]

God helps you write?

Could you present something god helped you write? It must have an obvious divine wisdom to it. An energy... something no human could outdo. I would love to see just a sentense

There are Many things Father and Mother (God ) help me write, I have a whole book load, probably three.

Here is Just one, and it matters not if you believe me. Another is In the beginning there was love, You have to search for that. My Lap top is in the shop with The writings inspired By God, Lots of Quotes from conversations I've had w/ Father and Mother also.

Here is vibrations which I suppose Many could Have written, But if you think about your defuinate proof you are looking For Of God's inspired writings , you will have to look inside your Heart, to see what is and what is not, Iam just sharing what I know, Learned From God.

The How Of Spirit travel

Vibrations,

We live in a universe filled with vibrations or lack of vibrations resonating at certain frequencies both biological and mechanical. Everything is vibration from thoughts to things. Different speeds of vibrations create different masses of reality. What is surprising is that the slower the rate, the more mass you can see. The faster the rate of vibration the more spiritual and intangibility can be sustained. Then the frequency at which this resonating vibration harmonizes can create though communications.

Science and spiritualists both agree that what appears to be empty space is actually a field of unlimited consciousness and potential. This is where vibrations are at the speed beyond light speed. I’ll call this spirit speed. We are the creative force within this unlimited universe and we can learn to create in three dominions. First the state of thought, which is the dominion over intention, intention is a vibration, a very slow state of vibration but compared to mass and reality of material things, it is even faster. Second, the state of body and motion, this is the dominion of emotion. Emotion is nothing more that energy in motion. Hence, E (energy) + motion. Have your ever experienced a heighten body response while sitting completely still; this is the energy of emotion. All emotion and actions vibrate at a higher rate than thought.

Finally the state of feeling. Feeling is the ultimate vibration. Feeling is visceral, you literally feel in your body. Every feeling you sustain in your body is a biochemical change and simultaneously creates and sends a vibration message into the universe. If you can call forth a harmonically equal vibration where all three states are in congruence

I.e. + + + + + (Thought) Compelling energy for traveling and

+ + + + + + + + (Emotion) communication to a higher state

+++++++++++++++++ (Feeling) of consciousness.

You can transcend the physical or mortal states of being.

That is if you have done your homework first. All sin, regret, concerns etc. must be resolved. There can be no doubt in your mind, and you faith must be sincere and intact completely. That there is no resistance to be found in your body, or your thoughts creates such an absolute submission to travel into the realm of heaven and the trust that you can be called back is imperative.

Then you will have your thought, feeling and emotions create in the fields of ultimate potential and possibilities. When all three of your states come together vibration ally equal – you create anything you choose, you can go anywhere you wish and speak to anyone whom you choose. You transcend mass and the elements. You may be able to control the elements and change certain biological matter.

There is a time closely matching these harmonics in which most adult humans can come close naturally to these harmonics. It is when two intended spirits (ones who are totally compatible) melt together, as they do in intercourse and the minds transcend being. In trusting their love they become more concern for the other’s gratification than with self-gratification. In that fraction of a second when each is no longer in their perspective bodies is found a similitude of this process of harmonics.

When the self submits one to the other and trust the other freely accepts the love, there is a special God given connection.

Forgetting and resolving all of lives process, sins and concerns are imperative to do in order to achieve this state. Freeing the body and mind to the three dominions of the universe. First thought with good intentions; second emotion of love with all its energy; third feeling with the harmonics of highest form of vibrations humanly attainable.

Focusing on each other in an enclose environment seeking the highest form of Love is relatively a safe environment. Remaining in the physical space and reaching bliss in each other’s presences. A second coming can also be found in the exhilaration of the heart felt Love shared in the security of the union which bring the state to even more focus at peace. Although this is an incomplete example, it is as similar as I can show you at this point in your enlightenment.

____________________________________________________________________

In traveling to heaven and conversing with the Godheads require complete focus on destination, either with help of spirit guides or a profound knowledge of the destination, or an attraction to something in heaven left behind. . Without guidance and a fixed point of attraction your spirit may be lost. An attraction to God is a good navigator but a poor navigator back to your body. Return travel requires another part left on earth. Not that you love yourself, because self-love cannot attain this travel, but the finding of the actual intended mate, here on earth, which when left behind serves as a lost longing to return.. A portion of oneself, separate, yet left behind which causes heaven to be incomplete.

It is a very difficult thing to live between two worlds, both worlds having their potential completeness but separated by the cosmos. Kind of a half love found nowhere in ones life. From the earth, half left in heaven, and the same for heaven half love left on earth. But within this paradox traveling is possible. To find the courage to let love be the navigator and the motivator to continue to love here on earth as it is done in heaven.

I can actually tell what the conversations were basically about by the flavor which I experience.

This earthbound world creates a non-belief system in any thing which cannot be seen, touched or smelled. But there are other dimensions. I have seen them with help. I knew they existed before but they became real with spiritual help. It is a matter of being in the right place at the right time with the right emotional state, clean and free from sin and a clear self accountability.

Being in true Love of Father where there is nothing on this earth which can be said or done which is more important than having This relationship with God. No sin is as appealing as that relationship and no temptation so great as to temp me into jeopardizing that relationship. The value system is on the love relationship, highest priority.

To lay down one’s life in protection of that relationship. To suffer the slings and arrows of this world seem such a trivial thing that living is worthless with out that relationship with God.

This is a motivator to perform as much good on this earth as possible. To confront the advisory open armed and embrace the evil of this world, but to continue to do good. To get your mind, body and soul so unconditional to the love as a well spring of energy as to endure this world in a Godly way is to find the reception of divine communication. To reach the stage of enlightenment that goes beyond our houses, cars and clothing to where the pure spirit form can be attained.

To reach this state and to maintain this state is easier than all think. To never deny God even in our sin, but to continue to develop our self accountability to the point of perfection because of the love we have for all mankind and for the creator of All universes. Which is really all our other brothers and sister, the rest of Father’s children.

This is the equipment needed to receive and record. Can this be made by a mechanical means? I think not.

I can do the harmonics, vibration and frequency by myself, but not without extreme sadness accompanying me in my travels, which in a way is my incentive to come back. To feel there is something left on this earth which completes me as a completed soul. I find myself only part of that which I can become by traveling alone. Not being complete and not totally aware of my travels, I cannot retain much of that which happened in my travels. Mostly only feelings and emotions are left to me as I return to my human state. Tell; tell signs of what my purpose was can remain but in a confused way. I find myself very drained for doing this travel alone.

.

As I said This was inspired By Mother of This world, Together she and Father Make God.

They help me write wether you believe it or not, and it is understandable , Whatever you believe.

Love Omnaka

[Jor-el]

I can't emphasize this point enough . . . . it is not important whether or not John fits into the time frame . . . . it is not important if any Christian or Christian sect believed in reincarnation . . . . what is important is that within these comments . . . . stating clearly who the PEOPLE thought Jesus was . . . . there appears to be a consistent belief in reincarnation.

Sorry to interject here but aren't you confusing the expectation of a physical return with the concept of reincarnation?

If I go away and tell people I'll be back in 10 years , are you going to wait for me to return in my own body or a new one, maybe ten years old?

You are taking one concept and trying to fit it into a different frame, a frame that doesn't fit the concept unless you ignore a multitude of different verses to get your point across.

In effect a round peg only fits into a round hole not a square hole...

Edited August 12, 2008 by Jor-el

[Jor-el]

Using Scripture to deal with a question within Scripture is like throwing water on a drowning man.

Did the people say that they believed Jesus was Elijah returned or not????

That is the question.

Yes they did, that is very true, that was the popular expectation, even if it was misunderstood within scripture.

But in your question you hit the nail on the head... the keyword is RETURNED not reborn...

[MARAB0D]

Using Scripture to deal with a question within Scripture is like throwing water on a drowning man.

Did the people say that they believed Jesus was Elijah returned or not????

That is the question.

Yes, they did say this - but these only were just people, not the prophets or Christ. People say many things, in the Bible as well. The fact is that Christianity does not accept reincarnation and does not talk about past and future lives, limiting a human to one life only. Different goals, this position does not in fact deny reincarnation as such, it simply does not use it.

Reincarnation is not an exact repeat of a person in the next life, there still would be ANOTHER person. In the sense of reincarnation we all are Adam and Eve's incarnates, but what Christianity says is that we only have this our current combination of Body+Soul+Spirit to deal with, not with any future possible combination.BTW even spiritualistically reincarnation is a very imperfect concept - as all people are Images of God, incarnates of God, so they are all One the same time, they all have connections, dead or alive they be. These connections may cause memories of someone else's life to be acquired, because we are all One, this is like to receive two radiostations at once. This does not mean "past" life of the individuum who receives these memories, this only means we share a lot of things.

[Dr. D]

Sorry to interject here but aren't you confusing the expectation of a physical return with the concept of reincarnation?

If I go away and tell people I'll be back in 10 years , are you going to wait for me to return in my own body or a new one, maybe ten yuears old?

You are taking one concept and trying to fit it into a different frame, a frame that doesn't fit the concept unless you ignore a multitude of different verses to get your point across.

In effect a round peg only fits into a round hole not a square hole...

But that was not the scenario . . . . the question was very clear . . . . "Who do the people say I am?" . . . . anyone would have known that Jesus was not Elijah as a 30-year-old man . . . .

Concerning the other verses . . . . yes, I do ignore them because they simply endorse a commonly held tradition and were written across a wide time frame.

But in that moment, the people believed Jesus was Elijah . . . . some suggested he was Jeremiah . . . . unless, of course, if the disciples were lying.

[Omnaka]

Christ said that God is for the living people only, not for dead people. Christianity does not need any "reincarnation" to promote that moral code it chose to promote. Reincarnation is a weapon of a crook - as it in fact allows to make any sins, promising some karmic punishment in the next life. Christianity teaches that we only have one chance, the current life - you fail it, too bad. This is just different approaches, it has little to do with the beliefs.

Or The Truth, IMO.

As I said It need not be believed to be An absolute Universal Truth. This is one o dem truths.

It's like Not Knowing The Dynamics Of The Father , son and Mother, Or Holy spirit, One need only Love God to put the power in to effect, The power is Love.

Love Omnaka

[Dr. D]

Yes they did, that is very true, that was the popular expectation, even if it was misunderstood within scripture.

But in your question you hit the nail on the head... the keyword is RETURNED not reborn...

Okay . . . . returned as what . . . . returned as who?

Throughout thousands of years of writings about reincarnation, the concept of "returned" has been used. Probably far more than "reborn."

[Ownagebus]

thats the conclusion many come to. although i think he was trying to point out that 2+2 = 4. meaning, in thier opinion, that means theres a god. its basically faith based, but not an absolute at all.

I just personally find it a pointless way to explain God or Faith in god.

[Jor-el]

Okay . . . . returned as what . . . . returned as who?

Throughout thousands of years of writings about reincarnation, the concept of "returned" has been used. Probably far more than "reborn."

Returned physically from heaven... that is all, as for the rest you are speculating and that is what gives rise to the weird conjectures so many people are filled with. When so many skeptics say that they can read anything they want into the bible they are right because just like you they ignore the 1st rule of the word, support for an idea must be supported by multiple scriptures and must not violate others in terms of meaning...

I have said this to many people before and I will say it again, you can believe in reincarnation or anything else you want, but don't bother to use the scriptures for support... I don't go to a barber to buy milk... I go to the supermarket.You want scripture to support reincarnation go to the "Vedas" or some other "holy" book, not the bible.

[Omnaka]

I just personally find it a pointless way to explain God or Faith in god.

I agree , It's Bad Math IMO.

LOVE mnka

(New Keyboard)

Edited August 12, 2008 by Omnaka

[Dr. D]

Returned physically from heaven... that is all, as for the rest you are speculating and that is what gives rise to the weird conjectures so many people are filled with. When so many skeptics say that they can read anything they want into the bible they are right because just like you they ignore the 1st rule of the word, support for an idea must be supported by multiple scriptures and must not violate others in terms of meaning...

I have said this to many people before and I will say it again, you can believe in reincarnation or anything else you want, but don't bother to use the scriptures for support... I don't go to a barber to buy milk... I go to the supermarket.You want scripture to support reincarnation go to the "Vedas" or some other "holy" book, not the bible.

Is it not an equally legitimate argument that Scripture is filled with repeated phrases in support of a singular idea or belief? I find no reason to believe a concept is somehow validated because multiple verses refer to it. It only means that the concept was believed by multiple writers.

Maybe I wouldn't go the barber to buy milk, but I should be able to come to a thread and get reason and logic. The premise is very simple . . . . I am not interested in if the people understood prophesy . . . . I am not interested if Christianity supports reincarnation . . . . I am not interested in how often an idea is repeated throughout the books of the Bible . . . . I am interested in a singular moment in a single day in the life of Jesus when he asked the simple question and the disciples responded that the people believed that Jesus was Elijah.

Now it can be repeated that they thought of the physical Elijah . . . . we can debate the semantics of "return" and "reborn" but the fact remains that on that day and in that moment they believed that JESUS was indeed ELIJAH and being a different person than Elijah, it is not difficult to conclude that the concept of reincarnation existed in that time.

[Jor-el]

Is it not an equally legitimate argument that Scripture is filled with repeated phrases in support of a singular idea or belief? I find no reason to believe a concept is somehow validated because multiple verses refer to it. It only means that the concept was believed by multiple writers.

Maybe I wouldn't go the barber to buy milk, but I should be able to come to a thread and get reason and logic. The premise is very simple . . . . I am not interested in if the people understood prophesy . . . . I am not interested if Christianity supports reincarnation . . . . I am not interested in how often an idea is repeated throughout the books of the Bible . . . . I am interested in a singular moment in a single day in the life of Jesus when he asked the simple question and the disciples responded that the people believed that Jesus was Elijah.

Now it can be repeated that they thought of the physical Elijah . . . . we can debate the semantics of "return" and "reborn" but the fact remains that on that day and in that moment they believed that JESUS was indeed ELIJAH and being a different person than Elijah, it is not difficult to conclude that the concept of reincarnation existed in that time.

OK, Dr... if you say so...

One last question---

Do you consider yourself to be a good person?

Edited August 12, 2008 by Jor-el

[Dr. D]

OK, Dr... if you say so...

One last question---

Do you consider yourself to be a good person?

Thank you . . . .

More important, Jo-el, others consider me to be a good person . . . .

I see where you're going . . . .

[Jor-el]

Thank you . . . .

More important, Jo-el, others consider me to be a good person . . . .

I see where you're going . . . .

I knew you would... that's why I know you also see the weakness in your particular argument....

Edited August 12, 2008 by Jor-el

[Dr. D]

I knew you would... that's why I know you also see the weakness in your particular argument....

On the contrary . . . . equating human qualities with a quality human is vastly different.

Now, if "good person" had lived 2,000 years before and people thought I was one and the same, then we'd have something to talk about.

Let's not forget that the Pharisees believed in reincarnation . . . . Origin believed in reincarnation . . . . and as much as it is distasteful to you, the gnostic writings are filled with reincarnation references.

[Marcus Aurelius]

On the contrary . . . . equating human qualities with a quality human is vastly different.

Now, if "good person" had lived 2,000 years before and people thought I was one and the same, then we'd have something to talk about.

Let's not forget that the Pharisees believed in reincarnation . . . . Origin believed in reincarnation . . . . and as much as it is distasteful to you, the gnostic writings are filled with reincarnation references.

As a reincarnationist myself, I disagree somewhat with this post. Origen supporting reincarnation is shaky grounds at best. Really what it is, is a bunch of scholars trying to RE-interpret some of his writings to fit their own agendas....effectively putting words in the theologian's mouth. Like taking a sound bite out of context. Origen really DID NOT believe in reincarnation, NONE of his writings explicitly state it at all, or even give much in the way of hints to it. What he did believe in was the pre=existence of souls, that we existed in spirit before we took on bodily form, much in keeping with Platonic philosophy, from whom he borrowed heavily. Now while some may take this as an allusion to reincarnation; it really is not, they are two seperate things.

Also, and I may be wrong about this, but it is my understanding that we have no solid proof that the pharisees ever believed in reincarnation, rather, it was something that came about AFTER the destruction of the temple, when the displaced Jews, almost as a coping mechanism, turned to a more inward sort of spirituality, the Kabbalah. The temple and their external faith was gone, so they had to compensate somehow. This is where the belief in reincarnation really came into play, but lets not be mistaken here, either, the kabbalah, while I myself like it a lot, and even practice some kabbalah meditations, it still is a far cry from mainstream Judaism. Reincarnation has never been accepted by mainstream Judaism.

If anyone in believed in reincarnation AT THAT time period, it is my opinion, and mine only, that the Essenes may have. But I don't have any evidence to support it, I just feel they might have.

Lastly, I do agree with you, gnostic literature has all kinds of references to it. That's one of the reasons why I like so many of the gnostic books

[Jor-el]

As a reincarnationist myself, I disagree somewhat with this post. Origen supporting reincarnation is shaky grounds at best. Really what it is, is a bunch of scholars trying to RE-interpret some of his writings to fit their own agendas....effectively putting words in the theologian's mouth. Like taking a sound bite out of context. Origen really DID NOT believe in reincarnation, NONE of his writings explicitly state it at all, or even give much in the way of hints to it. What he did believe in was the pre=existence of souls, that we existed in spirit before we took on bodily form, much in keeping with Platonic philosophy, from whom he borrowed heavily. Now while some may take this as an allusion to reincarnation; it really is not, they are two seperate things.

Also, and I may be wrong about this, but it is my understanding that we have no solid proof that the pharisees ever believed in reincarnation, rather, it was something that came about AFTER the destruction of the temple, when the displaced Jews, almost as a coping mechanism, turned to a more inward sort of spirituality, the Kabbalah. The temple and their external faith was gone, so they had to compensate somehow. This is where the belief in reincarnation really came into play, but lets not be mistaken here, either, the kabbalah, while I myself like it a lot, and even practice some kabbalah meditations, it still is a far cry from mainstream Judaism. Reincarnation has never been accepted by mainstream Judaism.

If anyone in believed in reincarnation AT THAT time period, it is my opinion, and mine only, that the Essenes may have. But I don't have any evidence to support it, I just feel they might have.

Lastly, I do agree with you, gnostic literature has all kinds of references to it. That's one of the reasons why I like so many of the gnostic books

Good post brahaman, you hit the nail on the head with that one.

While I have spent quite some time studying the gnostic literature of the later centuries after Christ and also some of the Kabbalistic literature, I hesitate to call these texts scripture, since, essencially they antagonistic in structure to one another and although they both draw on the same kind of imagery, they have a completely different theological foundation and outlook.

While they gnostic texts may lend themselves to reincarnation, the biblical texts certainly do not.

[Jor-el]

On the contrary . . . . equating human qualities with a quality human is vastly different.

Now, if "good person" had lived 2,000 years before and people thought I was one and the same, then we'd have something to talk about.

Let's not forget that the Pharisees believed in reincarnation . . . . Origin believed in reincarnation . . . . and as much as it is distasteful to you, the gnostic writings are filled with reincarnation references.

I do believe you are equating the belief in the resurrection to reincarnation, when speaking of the Pharisees. The context is clearly demonstrated in the bible in various dialogues both the Pharisees and the Saducees had with Jesus. One has nothing to do with the other.

That is what I meant by context, which you purposefully ignore to make your point.

That is what I meant in the question I asked you earlier, how can someone say whether you are good or bad without knowing you or something about you before they make their decision on whether you are good or bad.

In the same vein you are rejecting the context so that you can missapply the verses you quoted.

Edited August 13, 2008 by Jor-el

[+Sherapy]

On the contrary . . . . equating human qualities with a quality human is vastly different.

Now, if "good person" had lived 2,000 years before and people thought I was one and the same, then we'd have something to talk about.

Let's not forget that the Pharisees believed in reincarnation . . . . Origin believed in reincarnation . . . . and as much as it is distasteful to you, the gnostic writings are filled with reincarnation references.

What i find interesting is that the ethical monothiesist usually argues that reincarnation is one of the 'perks' of the diety....especially the scriptures that infer the circle of life, rebirth/ reborn and reincarnation etc.....

[MARAB0D]

I do believe you are equating the belief in the resurrection to reincarnation, when speaking of the Pharisees. The context is clearly demonstrated in the bible in various dialogues both the Pharisees and the Saducees had with Jesus. One has nothing to do with the other.

Now I have to agree with Jor-el on that too. Reincarnation and resurrection are two completely different things. Reincarnation is a concept that we have multiple lives, each of us PERSONALLY, and through the experiences of these lives we learn; also we receive the punishment in this life for our sins in the past life. Resurrection suggests one life only and one chance to learn; it is actually closer to the idea of LingaSharira, Eternal Now, and resurrection means the end of Time for us as Time exists now, so all ever living people would find each other in one Moment, as now we are separated with Time, which is our method of filing the events. I can suggest that if our Conscience changes to the next stage and we would be able to see 4-dimensionally, then this is what would happen, we would find ourselves among all people who ever were living, but this most likely would be in spirit, not in physical state, so we wont be able to have a cupo with Adam, but still would be able to have a chat.

[Marcus Aurelius]

What i find interesting is that the ethical monothiesist usually argues that reincarnation is one of the 'perks' of the diety....especially the scriptures that infer the circle of life, rebirth/ reborn and reincarnation etc.....

A perk only in that we are not doomed to an eternal hell if we live a mistake riddled life. If we only live one life, spiritually speaking, then the majoirity of people are going to hell, which in turn, IMO, means that God is NOT all loving, as if He were He would not save some and damn others. From a reincarnationist perspective, it is my view that we save and damn ourselves as a direct result of our actions here. You can't shake your karma. But let's not be mistaken here, let's assume this cycle does exist.....well, it isn't pretty lol. We have to live COUNTLESS lives here before we can ever reach the end goal. Its good to have the chances to do it, but the process itself sucks lol. We are like a hamster forever running on a wheel. We are always driven to be materialistic, making escaping the cycle of birth, death, and rebirth ever more difficult with each incarnation.

Marabod, I agree with much of your post. That is how I feel the spiritual state is. But learning is not limited to the material plane. We also do interplanetary sojourns in spirit, and this eternal now, this nirvana like state, for much of us, will only be very temporary at best, as we will have to come down here and incarnate again.

[Ownagebus]

http://www.geocities.com/scientific_proof_...od/mathweb.html

If I cut/paste it you dont see the pull meanings because of the coding of this forum.

I read through it, but I still dont see how this is proof.

Edited August 13, 2008 by Ownagebus