Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Sherapy

2+2=4 equates a certainty of god

1,115 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

Sherapy
But how do you know that its true if all you have is subjective evidence? Is it the 'truth truth' or just 'your truth'?

church its his personal truth (beleif) based on his personal worldview.bascially...

there are no universal truths at this time....

truths are just fervently held beleifs in religious talk...IMO...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
chaoszerg
church its his personal truth (beleif) based on his personal worldview.bascially...

there are no universal truths at this time....

truths are just fervently held beleifs in religious talk...IMO...

To me it just sounds like it is all down to gut feelings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sherapy
I agree with you Sheri.... the thing is that the evidence we have of God is personal and experiential. It is our experience that convinced us all. Since you don't have that experience then it is pointless trying to convince you otherwise. You may understand where we are coming from but you will never actually believe us until you try it for yourself, and that is an experience I think you don't want or are even looking for...

Jorel you are always such a pleasure to talk with...

i wasn't looking to be connvinced and it is immaterial if I beleive you or not , i was actaully trying to understand and perhaps forge a bridge between son and i and in a ironic way we have managed to have a dialoge without insults or attacks and I am very proud of him truthfully he stuck it out he just debated no ad hominens at all....

i do think I could understand without the experince but you are ocrrect in your assessment i am not seeking this path for personal use but jsut for the fun of learning about it.....

perhaps you try and explain how this is possible for you ...you know irish has a pretty impressive post I am truly interested genuinely...

....

Edited by Supra Sheri

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sherapy
To me it just sounds like it is all down to gut feelings.

good point chaoszerg :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jor-el
Jorel you are always such a pleasure to talk with...

i wasn't looking to be connvinced and it is immaterial if I beleive you or not , i was actaully trying to understand and perhaps forge a bridge between son and i and in a ironic way we have managed to have a dialoge without insults or attacks and I am very proud of him truthfully he stuck it out he just debated no ad hominens at all....

i do think I could understand without the experince but you are ocrrect in your assessment i am not seeking this path for personal use but jsut for the fun of learning about it.....

perhaps you try and explain how this is possible for you ...you know irish has a pretty impressive post I am truly interested genuinely...

....

Sorry Sheri, that went by me...

What post of Irish are you referring to?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sherapy
But that is the difference. I want you to be happy with your own beliefs. If you have this relationship, then I am happy for you, really. It is wonderful for you. Thumbs up to you and good luck to you and I hope you find your happiness.

The disconnect is when you go from a one on one relationship with your god and drag me into it. I dont want to see your ten commandments in front of a building I helped pay for. You are now supporting something that causes me distress, When I see those plaques I see the torture that my Navajo ancestors went through forced on them by christians, I see people burned at the stake, I see the Inquisition...and you dont care as long as you get your way.

Spillover.

I want you to be happy in your beliefs and your relationship with your god. You want to take it ten steps further and rub it in my face.

Can you see that, or are you just too far into it to understand my point of view?

good post again fluffy....gosh or the roots of slavery or the jim jones tragedy or the recent texas FLDS exploitaiton of young girls or matthew shepard being drug through the dirt for bieng gay or 9/11 ... ....

it concerns me when we impose doctrine of any kind on others to many get hurt to many go to far in the name of caliming they are the right path or else.....

Edited by Supra Sheri

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sherapy
Sorry Sheri, that went by me...

What post of Irish are you referring to?

he has two on this thread that are great reads sharing his pov on knowing god....... click his posts you can get to them real fast that way...sorry... :blush: for not being clearer......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TheKnight
Outward displays are NO indication to an observer that "love" exists. None what-so-ever. In fact, outward signs of love can be extremely deceiving.

So I agree with what IamsSon says here.

I'm still baffled by how simple a concept this is and people are STILL asking others to "prove it" It's ridiculous. Get over it, you're only going to get answers from us like "I can't prove it", or colorful analogies.

Some of you folks act like you should be able to experience what a believer does. Why? Do you feel left out like a kid that didn't get picked for dodgeball in Jr. High? Or are you implying people who do have a relationship are mentally ill or kooky? If you were truly interested in what we have to say, you'd accept it when we are honest and say we can't "prove" it.

Get my drift? The regular religious people around here are getting real tired of "prove it" especially when the answer has been given over and over; "we can't prove it to you"

Sheeesh.

And why don't you ask the Pagans around here to "prove" their Gods and Goddesses. That NEVER happens on UM though.

I like this post...

But that is the difference. I want you to be happy with your own beliefs. If you have this relationship, then I am happy for you, really. It is wonderful for you. Thumbs up to you and good luck to you and I hope you find your happiness.

The disconnect is when you go from a one on one relationship with your god and drag me into it. I dont want to see your ten commandments in front of a building I helped pay for. You are now supporting something that causes me distress, When I see those plaques I see the torture that my Navajo ancestors went through forced on them by christians, I see people burned at the stake, I see the Inquisition...and you dont care as long as you get your way.

Spillover.

I want you to be happy in your beliefs and your relationship with your god. You want to take it ten steps further and rub it in my face.

Can you see that, or are you just too far into it to understand my point of view?

This too is a good post. I think most Christians can live without seeing the 10 commandments on the front of a courthouse. In fact, when considering how you put it (ie "I see the torture that my Navajo ancestors went through forced on them by christians") I think that it is nothing less than dutiful for the Christian to take the commandments off of the courthouse. After all, the greatest commandment according to the christian demi-god himself is to love your neighbor. Most certainly that comes before a display of something that Paul calls a curse to people anyways.

Do you not see it that way as well IamsSon? When considering the pain that such a visage might cause certain people, don't you think that maybe we can do without them on the building? I mean, think about, does it change anything whether or not the tablets are there on the courthouse? Does it stop corruption from entering? Does it stop judges from making mistakes every once in a while? Not at all.

If something causes your brother pain, don't you think that maybe you can do without the placitude that it gives you. If you don't, isn't it selfish to keep your placitude despite his pain?

Edited by ~Kaizen CJM~

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jor-el
I like this post...

This too is a good post. I think most Christians can live without seeing the 10 commandments on the front of a courthouse. In fact, when considering how you put it (ie "I see the torture that my Navajo ancestors went through forced on them by christians") I think that it is nothing less than dutiful for the Christian to take the commandments off of the courthouse. After all, the greatest commandment according to the christian demi-god himself is to love your neighbor. Most certainly that comes before a display of something that Paul calls a curse to people anyways.

Do you not see it that way as well IamsSon? When considering the pain that such a visage might cause certain people, don't you think that maybe we can do without them on the building? I mean, think about, does it change anything whether or not the tablets are there on the courthouse? Does it stop corruption from entering? Does it stop judges from making mistakes every once in a while? Not at all.

If something causes your brother pain, don't you think that maybe you can do without the placitude that it gives you. If you don't, isn't it selfish to keep your placitude despite his pain?

Great post yourself Kaizen.... :tu:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IamsSon
But that is the difference. I want you to be happy with your own beliefs. If you have this relationship, then I am happy for you, really. It is wonderful for you. Thumbs up to you and good luck to you and I hope you find your happiness.

The disconnect is when you go from a one on one relationship with your god and drag me into it. I dont want to see your ten commandments in front of a building I helped pay for. You are now supporting something that causes me distress, When I see those plaques I see the torture that my Navajo ancestors went through forced on them by christians, I see people burned at the stake, I see the Inquisition...and you dont care as long as you get your way.

Spillover.

I want you to be happy in your beliefs and your relationship with your god. You want to take it ten steps further and rub it in my face.

Can you see that, or are you just too far into it to understand my point of view?

I can certainly understand your viewpoint and actually agree with it. Like I said, the problem I have with this is the way that the First Amendment was completely misinterpreted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
churchanddestroy
I posted an edit, please read back...

Ooooh, well, that changes a lot. Let me get back to you on that in a bit, I'm going to need to think about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IamsSon
I like this post...

This too is a good post. I think most Christians can live without seeing the 10 commandments on the front of a courthouse. In fact, when considering how you put it (ie "I see the torture that my Navajo ancestors went through forced on them by christians") I think that it is nothing less than dutiful for the Christian to take the commandments off of the courthouse. After all, the greatest commandment according to the christian demi-god himself is to love your neighbor. Most certainly that comes before a display of something that Paul calls a curse to people anyways.

Do you not see it that way as well IamsSon? When considering the pain that such a visage might cause certain people, don't you think that maybe we can do without them on the building? I mean, think about, does it change anything whether or not the tablets are there on the courthouse? Does it stop corruption from entering? Does it stop judges from making mistakes every once in a while? Not at all.

If something causes your brother pain, don't you think that maybe you can do without the placitude that it gives you. If you don't, isn't it selfish to keep your placitude despite his pain?

Like I said, my problem with this issue is specifically with the misinterpretation of the Fist Amendment. I really could care less about the statues, since I don't even have "religious" iconography in my home.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
churchanddestroy
Like I said, my problem with this issue is specifically with the misinterpretation of the Fist Amendment. I really could care less about the statues, since I don't even have "religious" iconography in my home.

I'm curious Iams, how do you interpret it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lt_Ripley

I read a few posts ........... and I think the other side of the coin could use 2+2 = 4 as well, that God doesn't exist. yet that isn't just a personal view but a view of scientific fact. logical thinking. that's what makes it more concrete.

personal is not fact for anyone other than the individual.

I think I'm much too late for this debate ! lol

ps -- about how people 'feel ' God and are that way sure....

how many had 'fallen in love' with someone only to find they didn't feel that way ?? while you thought they did ?

just because you feel something doesn't make it real.

Edited by Lt_Ripley

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IamsSon
I'm curious Iams, how do you interpret it?

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Considering that many of the people who came to the Colonies did so to get away from the government supported Anglican Church, it seems obvious that the Amendment insures that the government will not establish a state religion. This is quite different from preventing religious people from using their faith-based views to guide how they participate in government.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lt_Ripley
Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Considering that many of the people who came to the Colonies did so to get away from the government supported Anglican Church, it seems obvious that the Amendment insures that the government will not establish a state religion. This is quite different from preventing religious people from using their faith-based views to guide how they participate in government.

yet one can say making a law with relgious belief in mind is respecting an establishment of religion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
churchanddestroy
Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Considering that many of the people who came to the Colonies did so to get away from the government supported Anglican Church, it seems obvious that the Amendment insures that the government will not establish a state religion. This is quite different from preventing religious people from using their faith-based views to guide how they participate in government.

Hypothetical situation: Imagine for a moment, if you will, that the majority of American's are Satanists, instead of Christians. Imagine as well, that 1. you are still you: you are IamsSon, you still retain the same personality/values etc. etc. etc., and 2. that your interpretation of the first amendment stands. How would you feel, as a Christian, about your interpretation if Satanists had on display the 11 Satanic Rules of the Earth? How would you feel about a Satanist (remember, this is LaVey's Satanism) using his/her Satanic views to guide how they participate in the gov't?

Here are the 11 Rules, as a refresher:

The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth (courtesy of Wikipedia)

1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.

2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.

3. When in another’s lair, show them respect or else do not go there.

4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat them cruelly and without mercy.

5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.

6. Do not take that which does not belong to you, unless it is a burden to the other person and they cry out to be relieved.

7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.

9. Do not harm little children.

10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.

11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask them to stop. If they do not stop, destroy them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lt_Ripley
Sheri, I can't prove it to you. I don't have to prove it to myself because I already know this is the truth.

ah ....... if you can't prove it to anyone other than yourself , why proclaim it to be the truth to others without such proof ?

If someone were to say to you 'drink this which I believe yet have no proof of ' concoction that will give you super human strength .... would you ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IamsSon
yet one can say making a law with relgious belief in mind is respecting an establishment of religion.
That's right as citizens of a democratic republic we can use whatever values we want to use in participating in the process of governing.

Hypothetical situation: Imagine for a moment, if you will, that the majority of American's are Satanists, instead of Christians. Imagine as well, that 1. you are still you: you are IamsSon, you still retain the same personality/values etc. etc. etc., and 2. that your interpretation of the first amendment stands. How would you feel, as a Christian, about your interpretation if Satanists had on display the 11 Satanic Rules of the Earth? How would you feel about a Satanist (remember, this is LaVey's Satanism) using his/her Satanic views to guide how they participate in the gov't?

Here are the 11 Rules, as a refresher:

The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth (courtesy of Wikipedia)

1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.

2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.

3. When in another’s lair, show them respect or else do not go there.

4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat them cruelly and without mercy.

5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.

6. Do not take that which does not belong to you, unless it is a burden to the other person and they cry out to be relieved.

7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.

9. Do not harm little children.

10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.

11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask them to stop. If they do not stop, destroy them.

church, I know from your perspective this may be a very "Christian" nation, but from the perspective of a spiritual Christian, this country is not a Christian nation, so it's not like I currently live in a country that is run the way I believe it would be run if it was Christian.

That being said, other than #7, I have no problems with the Eleven Satanic Rules.

Now as to how I would feel, to be honest, I've been thinking about it, and I'm not sure that I can really tell. I'm sure I would feel like any other minority feels to some degree, but I've never been a minority really (I'm Mexican-American, but grew up in an area of the country where the population is more than 80% Mexican-American, so I wasn't a minority) so I have no idea what that feels like. But if the Constitution was still the Constitution and we were respecting it, I think for the most part I would be quite fine with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Fluffybunny
That's right as citizens of a democratic republic we can use whatever values we want to use in participating in the process of governing.

church, I know from your perspective this may be a very "Christian" nation, but from the perspective of a spiritual Christian, this country is not a Christian nation, so it's not like I currently live in a country that is run the way I believe it would be run if it was Christian.

That being said, other than #7, I have no problems with the Eleven Satanic Rules.

Now as to how I would feel, to be honest, I've been thinking about it, and I'm not sure that I can really tell. I'm sure I would feel like any other minority feels to some degree, but I've never been a minority really (I'm Mexican-American, but grew up in an area of the country where the population is more than 80% Mexican-American, so I wasn't a minority) so I have no idea what that feels like. But if the Constitution was still the Constitution and we were respecting it, I think for the most part I would be quite fine with it.

If you agree with number one: Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked., then doesnt that support my point? Enjoy your religion but dont give me your advice or opinion(via plaques or such) unless I ask you about it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IamsSon
If you agree with number one: Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked., then doesnt that support my point? Enjoy your religion but dont give me your advice or opinion(via plaques or such) unless I ask you about it?

Fluff, we're in a forum debating and expressing opinions, and here I express my opinion. Out in the world, you would find that I actually follow 10 (including #1) of those Satanic Rules quite well.

Edited by IamsSon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Agent. Mulder
No one can? Who said that? Is that some sort of rule? Or is it something that makes people feel better about not knowing? To say that no one can know is a cop out. It's like saying "I don't know, there are others who don't know, thus no one can know." Unless you meet everyone in the world, you can't say something such as "no one can know". Because there are those who can and do know.

does it make you feel better saying you Do Know? while others apparently cannot? does this make you feel high and mighty? being able to Know something, that cant be proven, and that you cant show to Anyone Else? saying that is a cop out. "oh, i know its real...but i cant prove it. youll have to see for yourself" weeeeeeaaak

oh, and i have met everyone in the world...but i cant prove it to you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MissMelsWell
1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.

2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.

3. When in another’s lair, show them respect or else do not go there.

4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat them cruelly and without mercy.

I don't believe in treating anyone or anything with cruelty and without mercy.

5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.

6. Do not take that which does not belong to you, unless it is a burden to the other person and they cry out to be relieved.

I don't think I have a problem with this one. But it might require some more detail before I'd commit to be ok with it

7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

Ya, I'll never have any belief in magic. So this one doesn't make any sense to me.

8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.

9. Do not harm little children.

10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.

I'd fix this up with a little by having it read: not killing human or non-human animals

11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask them to stop. If they do not stop, destroy them.

I have a problem with "destroying" other people. I have no desire to destroy anyone.

I actually have more problems with these rules than IamsSon does.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Paranoid Android

^ Hey MMW, that'd be my take on the 11 rules. If someone's in my lair, and they disrespect me, I won't "destroy them", nor would I do so if walking in open territory. But generally, they sound fine (number 7 is the only one i completely disagree with and the caveats you have put on the others I'd agree with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
iamfatfrog

i tryed to have some one prove to me australia existed,they said it was on the map i said they were fake and lies they said you can read about it i said anyone can write a lie as well as tell one.they said people clame to be from there i said there just making it up shorte of going there how can one prove it is real?so for those who need proof what short of meeting God or going to heaven what proof is aceptable to you just as australia is self evident without going there so is God and heaven.ultimatly you eather say ok i beleve or i refuse to,its not up to me to prove anything to anyone its rather up to you to decide whats acceptable to what you beleve and in the end perhaps well meet again to see who is right

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.