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Sherapy

2+2=4 equates a certainty of god

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Jor-el
I get and enjoyed the analogy Irish, and now for your consideration: I'd say the stakes aren't real high or important in this context..... so the degree of certainty doesn't really matter unless you ask to borrow money ..lol

something as important and requiring such a commitment and a way of life that is exclusivist holding ideas that are questionable and that have lead to harm such as 'god' would and rightlty so need to have some benchmark of verification or explaination and perhaps justification in place (and I am not saying absolutely because i stay away for absolutes myself) ..but 'faith' at some point has to be backed up by some sort of evidence of some kind simply for confidence in use....IMO...

and obviosusly its not enough because many leave behind "god" all the time....

You know, before everyone goes off half cocked, we should 1st examine what it means to be spiritual, what exactly is the spirit world?

If we can come to a consensus on that then at least we can say whether science has a chance of ever explaining it...

In my view, the spirit world is a phrase that simply means a higher dimension of existence. It is part of the material universe that was created by God, not apart from it.

Just as we can't see molecules or atoms or quarks, which by definition makes them invisible, then by extension, there could be a super strata of existence higher than our plane of reality.

It is one of the reasons, spirituality has always defined the "real world" as a world of shadows, which are a reflection of the Spiritual plane of existence.

Edited by Jor-el

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Harte

I posted:

I'd like to interject here that it is not a "fact" that 2+2=4.

It is a previously agreed-upon definition of the arithmetic operation we've agreed to refer to as "addition," and nothing more.

Hence, IAmson is twice correct when he claims to know God exists like he knows 2+2=4.

First, he "knows" it through faith.

Second, he "knows" it because he's defined God in the same way we've defined what is meant by 2+2=4.

Harte

To which IamsSon replied:

I would like to point out that you are right if I am referring to the symbols we have agreed to use to represent the ACT of taking two items, taking two more items and then counting all of them and counting four items. But I am talking about the physical act represented by the agreed-upon symbols and that act does not depend on an agreed-upon format, I will count four items whether you agree with me or not. Because of my experience the reality of God is as solid to me as adding two items to two other items and then counting four.

IamsSon,

In order to count to four, you must first agree on the definition of counting, so it's not just the symbols...

But no worries, I knew what you meant perfectly well. I know where you're coming from, I respect your belief and your faith. I even agree with you, which you might find surprising, I suppose.

I just have a problem with the way some people here misuse the words "fact" and "proven." You may have seen me rail on this seemingly minor (to some) detail of semantics before.

I teach math, which is why the proper usage of such terms is important to me. Additionally, I am constantly trying to make it clear to everyone that there exists no proof of anything outside the field of mathematics. And not really a lot of it within the field of mathematics. The entire field is based on agreed-upon definitions and/or statements that can't be proven which have been previously agreed upon as true for the sake of discussion. Statements like "If two lines are parallel, they will never intersect." It is, in fact, these very same previously-arranged "agreements" that affords mathematics, and only mathematics, the luxury of having the capability of proving a statement to be true or false.

At any rate, I understand what faith is, I even have some myself. Far be it from me to question another person regarding a matter of faith!

Harte

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Jor-el
nothing should be dismissed because it isn't 100% . like evolution , but it does have a huge amount of hard evidence . we could say it's well in the 80% range.

but religion has 0% evidence. personal feelings and opinion is not evidence. so why not dismiss it ?

Maybe because life is not only about facts and the verifiable... whether you want to accept that or not, that is up to you...

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Sherapy
Sheri,

You don't get it simply because it is a comment resting somewhere beyond the logical mind. The 2+2=4 equation can also be used to disprove God since it merely suggests that the concept is so basically sound that it must be true.

The fact is that god is probably a power far greater than the one portrayed in man's efforts to describe him. The Michaelangelo image on the Cistine Chapel ceiling typically represents the human view but true logic suggests that this supreme power rests somewhere beyond these feeble attempts.

We find immediate conflicts in an omnipotent god who needs to rest on the seventh day. An all-knowing god who repents the creation of mankind. And writers of a Bible who claim to know what god said before the creation of man.

2+2=4? The very suggestion that the god Christians have created is too believable to be denied speaks only of the arrogance of the faith, not the existence of their idea of a creator.

Ex as always you bring a clarity that is fresh and thought proviking ... or simply astounding...but i am a fan and freind of yours so my bias is showing ...

iwe could of used you the other day on interpretating elohim and "ish " in hebrew on the jesus came for the jews thread... there was quite a debate going on .............

you know i did get real fast that 2+2=4 does more towards disproivng god than proving god... only a few caught that or mentioned it anyways..........

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Lt_Ripley
When one asks God for patience, how do you think he gives it to us?

"Here you go, a bit of patience for my child....."

No, he provides you with an opportunity to practice that patience, and the more you practice the more you get...

God will give you what you want but not in the way we most times expect...

so how come that doesn't work for the millions who believe and are starving to death ? is your prayer for patience more important ? do you believe more ? more blessed ?

http://www.starvation.net/

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Jor-el
Ex as always you bring a clarity that is fresh and thought proviking ... or simply astounding...but i am a fan and freind of yours so my bias is showing ...

iwe could of used you the other day on interpretating elohim and "ish " in hebrew on the jesus came for the jews thread... there was quite a debate going on .............

you know i did get real fast that 2+2=4 does more towards disproivng god than proving god... only a few caught that or mentioned it anyways..........

You never did give us your opinion on my post regarding the elohim.... :(

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Harte
Hi Belle, A faith analogy for your consideration!

Your belief that I really exist as a human is faith based, built on the evidence presented on my virtual presence and writings here in the virtual world of the internet.

In order to absolutely confirm my true existence as fact you would need to find and meet me in person.

If I were to tell you exactly were I am located in the real world and drew you a map on how to get to my house. The oneness would be on you to follow my directions in order that we may meet in person. Then our relationship would have changed from mealy faith based to a fact based reality.

However our meeting would only be our own reality as we could never prove to anyone else that we really met in person, which brings the experience back to faith in others eyes.

Irish,

In the same vein as what I said previously, I'd have to say that the scenario you lay out here still results in a "faith based"relationship.

In order to accept you're existence, I (or Belle) would have to take as a matter of faith that there really are signals being sent from actual sensory organs to a central nervous system clearinghouse (my brain) that truly exists.

Of course, we all make these assumptions constantly, everyday. But they are still assumptions and they are still faith-based.

Harte

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Jor-el
so how come that doesn't work for the millions who believe and are starving to death ? is your prayer for patience more important ? do you believe more ? more blessed ?

http://www.starvation.net/

1st, the prayer for patience was an example, a metaphor if you like to demonstrate a specific point.

2nd, I won't involve myself in that type of discussion at this time and this thread since, I think we already did that once before.

Edited by Jor-el

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Sherapy
You never did give us your opinion on my post regarding the elohim.... :(

i didnt see it Jorel .. oh my gosh I right on it i am sure its awesome.... :wub:

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Jor-el
i didnt see it Jorel .. oh my gosh I right on it i am sure its awesome.... :wub:

Go to my blog, I posted it there as well for future reference...

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iamfatfrog

i tryed to have some one prove to me australia existed,they said it was on the map i said they were fake and lies they said you can read about it i said anyone can write a lie as well as tell one.they said people clame to be from there i said there just making it up shorte of going there how can one prove it is real?so for those who need proof what short of meeting God or going to heaven what proof is aceptable to you just as australia is self evident without going there so is God and heaven.ultimatly you eather say ok i beleve or i refuse to,its not up to me to prove anything to anyone its rather up to you to decide whats acceptable to what you beleve and in the end perhaps well meet again to see who is right

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Sherapy
Go to my blog, I posted it there as well for future reference...

okay thanks... :wub:

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MissMelsWell
I have spoken often of the arrogance of "the believers." Your comments simply verify this point.

Those who are the "insiders" and "hear" God are the ones who are not confused. But the "outsiders" who do not hear God are confused and without the "ability" to hear God.

But maybe the "insiders" are so confused about life itself that they "hear" God. Maybe the "outsiders" live in a real world where God has not spoken in countless centuries. In a real world where someone like George Bush says that he hears God and was told to kill more than 150,000 innocents in Iraq.

In that real world, hearing God does not reflect much contact with those realities. But then, I might be confused, right?

I think you have mistaken my meaning. That would be my fault for not being clear though. For that I apologize. I failed to add any kind of context.

It's most definitely not an "inside" or "outside" thing. As I've stated, I believe I have a limited ability. There's nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all actually. There's nothing wrong with not hearing at all either. It just is what it is--If you're meant to hear clearly, that will happen. If it's not necessary to God for you to hear, then so be it.

I'm not saying you are confused in general, that would be arrogant and well, frankly, horrifically wrong of me... but many people are confused as to why others do "hear" while they do not... when that happens, the old "prove it" gets drug out and batted around. It's silly. It's not a matter of inside, outside, better, worse, special, not special, it's a matter of mechanics in my opinion.

ALL people serve a purpose regardless of what they believe and what they hear and do not hear.

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Dr. D
i tryed to have some one prove to me australia existed,they said it was on the map i said they were fake and lies they said you can read about it i said anyone can write a lie as well as tell one.they said people clame to be from there i said there just making it up shorte of going there how can one prove it is real?so for those who need proof what short of meeting God or going to heaven what proof is aceptable to you just as australia is self evident without going there so is God and heaven.ultimatly you eather say ok i beleve or i refuse to,its not up to me to prove anything to anyone its rather up to you to decide whats acceptable to what you beleve and in the end perhaps well meet again to see who is right

I have been to Australia and in itself that proves the greater point.

The weakness of your argument is in the restriction you propose, ". . . . just as Australia is self evident without going there so is God and heaven."

The fact remains that Australia is accessible to anyone who wants to physically witness it.

God is not.

Heaven is not.

And it is easy to dismiss the concept with the suggestion that those who do not accept it ". . . . refuse to." That gives the idea that the existence of God and Heaven are absolute and those denying it "refuse to" accept their reality.

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Dr. D
Hi Belle, A faith analogy for your consideration!

Your belief that I really exist as a human is faith based, built on the evidence presented on my virtual presence and writings here in the virtual world of the internet.

In order to absolutely confirm my true existence as fact you would need to find and meet me in person.

If I were to tell you exactly were I am located in the real world and drew you a map on how to get to my house. The oneness would be on you to follow my directions in order that we may meet in person. Then our relationship would have changed from mealy faith based to a fact based reality.

However our meeting would only be our own reality as we could never prove to anyone else that we really met in person, which brings the experience back to faith in others eyes.

Hi Belle, A faith analogy for your consideration!

Your belief that I really exist as a human is faith based, built on the evidence presented on my virtual presence and writings here in the virtual world of the internet.

In order to absolutely confirm my true existence as fact you would need to find and meet me in person.

If I were to tell you exactly were I am located in the real world and drew you a map on how to get to my house. The oneness would be on you to follow my directions in order that we may meet in person. Then our relationship would have changed from mealy faith based to a fact based reality.

However our meeting would only be our own reality as we could never prove to anyone else that we really met in person, which brings the experience back to faith in others eyes.

Irish

The key factors here to change from faith to fact are;

1. An honest desire to actually meet me in person.

2. A willingness to follow my directions for that meeting.

Irish

While I appreciate your analogy, I find it a bit faulty.

To be applicable, someone would need to tell me that you existed and expose me to a book telling about your existence that surpassed every reality I had known in my life. You existed before time. You inspired this book and it is considered holy. You used to speak with people but you gave that up. I have to die to see you.

You don't have a physical address . . . . you are in the cosmos in a place beyond my imagination.

I might have a burning desire to see you but that just doesn't happen in modern times. We can have no meeting because there is a thing called life that separates us physically.

The truth is that you do not exist in the real world so I cannot arrange our meeting. I can only have faith that what this other person told me is the truth. A faith that the accounts in the book are valid. I must live and die with faith because you are beyond the reality where I could touch, see or hear you.

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Jor-el
And it is easy to dismiss the concept with the suggestion that those who do not accept it ". . . . refuse to." That gives the idea that the existence of God and Heaven are absolute and those denying it "refuse to" accept their reality.

But then again that is precisely the point.

When people don't accept, it is because they refuse to accept the position that the concepts are real and not imaginary. As such they made a decision, whetever it may be based on, that they are correct, thereby elimanating the arguments that are contrary to that position. They have chosen a position with their mind and with their own wisdom, when the scriptures state that the belief in God is the 1st step toward wisdom.

Relying on our own minds, is the path opposite to where God is...

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churchanddestroy
But then again that is precisely the point.

When people don't accept, it is because they refuse to accept the position that the concepts are real and not imaginary. As such they made a decision, whetever it may be based on, that they are correct, thereby elimanating the arguments that are contrary to that position. They have chosen a position with their mind and with their own wisdom, when the scriptures state that the belief in God is the 1st step toward wisdom.

Relying on our own minds, is the path opposite to where God is...

Then why did God give us minds?

What bothers me is that many people feel that because of their "personal experience" their religion is the absolute truth. But what about other religions? Every religion has people who claim to experience God, but if our subjective experiences are supposed to be evidence of God, then what about people who believe different things who claim to have experienced their Gods? Are they just lying?

Edited by churchanddestroy

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Sherapy
But then again that is precisely the point.

When people don't accept, it is because they refuse to accept the position that the concepts are real and not imaginary. As such they made a decision, whetever it may be based on, that they are correct, thereby elimanating the arguments that are contrary to that position. They have chosen a position with their mind and with their own wisdom, when the scriptures state that the belief in God is the 1st step toward wisdom.

Relying on our own minds, is the path opposite to where God is...

Jorel, can we say this is a blatant refusal or sound judgement????? there is no way to chose a posit Jorel because there is no data to consider..no personal aexperiince to assimilate...

.

how does one have a partner if they are invisible other then in their imagination ???? why would it even be a question you'd ask let alone not even ask for any standards by which to determine what / who it is. and who is right some religions say god is an essence, some say their is no god. etc etc.....................wisdom comes to us all eventually you know what I call wisdom knowledge that has been applied and learned from the ability to adapt...my flesh and blood grandfather told me its the abiltiy to learn from my mistakes and to not repeat them. and for cripes sake use my head ...... and it has served me well..........

in other words what am I agreeing to and what for???? No i do not not feel faith in and of itself is enough to make this sort of leap/ commitment...

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Dr. D
But then again that is precisely the point.

When people don't accept, it is because they refuse to accept the position that the concepts are real and not imaginary. As such they made a decision, whetever it may be based on, that they are correct, thereby elimanating the arguments that are contrary to that position. They have chosen a position with their mind and with their own wisdom, when the scriptures state that the belief in God is the 1st step toward wisdom.

Relying on our own minds, is the path opposite to where God is...

Can you see the fallacies of your arguments? " . . . . they refuse to accept the position that the concepts are real and not imaginary." Just as others refuse to accept the position that the concepts are imaginary and not real.

". . . . thereby eliminating the arguments that are contrary to that position."

" . . . . thereby eliminating the arguments that are contrary to that position."

"They have chosen a position with their mind and with their own wisdom, when the scriptures state that the belief in God is the 1st step toward wisdom."

They have chosen a position with their faith and believe it to be wise because the scriptures state that the belief in God is the first step toward wisdom. And in that position they are asked to believe that the scriptures are something more than the words of men. They are asked to believe that countless natural laws that have forever governed the actions of men were suspended to create miracles. They are asked to forget that there were many other messiahs and to most like miracles were accredited. They are asked to step out of the reality that has characterized their entire existence and have faith in the supernatural that is more kindly called the spiritual. They are asked to believe in mysteries and a concept that because God performs in strange ways, your unanswered prayers are nontheless heard. They are asked to surrender logic and reason and believe in tales without historic evidences or contemporary chronicles. And if presented with the realities that have always regulated the affairs of men, they are the ones who refuse to accept that position.

Edited by Expatriate

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Jor-el
Then why did God give us minds?

To be his imagers as he intended. We stuffed that up royally and were seperated from God, in essence, left to wallow in our own ego and self reliance, since that is what we defied Gods word for. We wanted to be like him (not realizing that already were).

Now that we live in this state of seperation, our minds can think and create, but not necessarily the way God wants us to do so. As such we have to throw out that way of thinking and become as infants allowing God to teach us from scratch how things ought to be done.

The 1st lesson that we learn as infants is, we need to trust him in all things, since he won't let us down. From there we grow and become more what God intended for us to be, still using our minds but now uniquely for his glory and his work rather than our own benefit and our own egos.

If God had wanted robots then that is what he would have created.

Edited by Jor-el

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Sherapy
I have been to Australia and in itself that proves the greater point.

The weakness of your argument is in the restriction you propose, ". . . . just as Australia is self evident without going there so is God and heaven."

The fact remains that Australia is accessible to anyone who wants to physically witness it.

God is not.

Heaven is not.

And it is easy to dismiss the concept with the suggestion that those who do not accept it ". . . . refuse to." That gives the idea that the existence of God and Heaven are absolute and those denying it "refuse to" accept their reality.

maybe its me but it seems tthat its more about valdiating a belief by getting us to agree or convert because there hasn't not been any real data for me to consider other than i don't know and reasons why they don't know......

you know my youngest some time back testing out his thinking apparatus i suppose said some thing silly like kids say with the standard and 'its a fact"...I forget what it was but it was not a fact it was absurd.......I said well "how do you know??" He said "i don't know" i said welll how can it be a fact if you dont know???" he sort of crinkled his brow in deep thought and said "good point mom...".he was 8 or so....

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Jor-el
Jorel, can we say this is a blatant refusal or sound judgement????? there is no way to chose a posit Jorel because there is no data to consider..no personal aexperiince to assimilate...

.

how does one have a partner if they are invisible other then in their imagination ???? why would it even be a question you'd ask let alone not even ask for any standards by which to determine what / who it is. and who is right some religions say god is an essence, some say their is no god. etc etc.....................wisdom comes to us all eventually you know what I call wisdom knowledge that has been applied and learned from the ability to adapt...my flesh and blood grandfather told me its the abiltiy to learn from my mistakes and to not repeat them. and for cripes sake use my head ...... and it has served me well..........

in other words what am I agreeing to and what for???? No i do not not feel faith in and of itself is enough to make this sort of leap/ commitment...

Who said anything about sound judgment, that is the whole point of my post...

We must abandon our own judgement to meet God, that is how it works. It is called the 1st step of faith... Those who would use their judgment will never experience that because they fear the loss of control too much...

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Jor-el
Can you see the fallacies of your arguments? " . . . . they refuse to accept the position that the concepts are real and not imaginary." Just as others refuse to accept the position that the concepts are imaginary and not real.

". . . . thereby eliminating the arguments that are contrary to that position."

" . . . . thereby eliminating the arguments that are contrary to that position."

"They have chosen a position with their mind and with their own wisdom, when the scriptures state that the belief in God is the 1st step toward wisdom."

They have chosen a position with their faith and believe it to be wise because the scriptures state that the belief in God is the first step toward wisdom. And in that position they are asked to believe that the scriptures are something more than the words of men. They are asked to believe that countless natural laws that have forever governed the actions of men were suspended to create miracles. They are asked to forget that there were many other messiahs and to most like miracles were accredited. They are asked to step out of the reality that has characterized their entire existence and have faith in the supernatural that is more kindly called the spiritual. They are asked to believe in mysteries and a concept that because God performs in strange ways, your unanswered prayers are nontheless heard. They are asked to surrender logic and reason and believe in tales without historic evidences or contemporary chronicles. And if presented with the realities that have always regulated the affairs of men, they are the ones who refuse to accept that position.

This is what your judment says, and that is why by making the choice you do, you are moving away from God... as I stated to Sheri.

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Sherapy
Who said anything about sound judgment, that is the whole point of my post...

We must abandon our own judgement to meet God, that is how it works. It is called the 1st step of faith... Those who would use their judgment will never experience that because they fear the loss of control too much...

I know Jorel you have to abandon sound judgement ?? why ???? its the frst step towards not thinking for yourself basicailly...

Edited by Supra Sheri

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Dr. D
maybe its me but it seems tthat its more about valdiating a belief by getting us to agree or convert because there hasn't not been any real data for me to consider other than i don't know and reasons why they don't know......

you know my youngest some time back testing out his thinking apparatus i suppose said some thing silly like kids say with the standard and 'its a fact"...I forget what it was but it was not a fact it was absurd.......I said well "how do you know??" He said "i don't know" i said welll how can it be a fact if you dont know???" he sort of crinkled his brow in deep thought and said "good point mom...".he was 8 or so....

I am constantly amazed at the willingness of most to invite confusion into their lives in the name of faith. To accept that concept, I must believe that there is an all-knowing God but I have free will. But if God knows what I will do because he is "all knowing," then my free will is negated by his absolute power. Now, I have seen every bit of exegesis Christians can throw to defend this absurdity, (God knows you will buy an ice cream, but he doesn't know which flavor . . . . please!) but it remains far beyond the point of logic and either reduces God to an entity who does not know everything or condemns man to being controlled by a destiny already prescribed by an omnipotent God.

In no way do I oppose the idea of a supreme power but I reject the imagry Christianity and Islam have created.

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