Why Were The Early Christians Persecuted?

[Lt_Ripley]

Hahahaha this is pure gold! Nothing worse than fundamental hypocritical violent supporting christians preaching that God and Christ are about love. Awesome pic! Just as a vast majority of muslims dont recognize osama and his gang as true muslims, I dont recognize christians who support violence as true christians.

It isn't just the hypocrisy ............... it's the non violent of both religions DOING NOTHING . If you know your spouse committed a crime and yet didn't turn them in ? your as guilty as they are.

And American has had it's pound of flesh and then some. There were no al qeada in Iraq until bush invaded. That means all those civilians killed ? murder plane and simple. I don't give a hoot what Saddam did - that's a child's argument trying to blame someone else for their own actions . that was also something for the UN to deal with.

so maybe if a million christians file in front of the white house and demanded bush stop and a million muslims file in front of the Iraqi government and demanded stop it would.

Al qeada is of late losing patriots . why ? because religious leaders are telling people over and over again it isn't worth it. that violence never solves anything. that only the weak brained resort to it.

but most don't wish to do anything. they think 'someone else will' . that applies to anything. the homeless , the poor , the starving. pollution , hate , prejudice and ignorance. People can't see past their own back yards nor care about anything past it. that is why religion is ineffective. if it acted en mass things would change. just like the proletariats in the book 1984. ( great book )

[Lt_Ripley]

The Indians were wiped out for their beliefs?

From what I understand....India is still over there and plenty of Indians are walking safely and believing what they want to....

Now Native Americans were wiped out because they were in the way of the settlers...not because they didn't believe what they did....

They were in the way..plain and simple. I know it's a stretch! The white man didn't kill people for not believin' in what the white man believe!

ah your wrong. they were killed and called heathens. Native children were taken , put in orphanages and forced to study christanity .

# Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity............

cont ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

How many people have been killed by Christians since Biblical times?

http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/10...n-killed-by.php

[brave_new_world]

It isn't just the hypocrisy ............... it's the non violent of both religions DOING NOTHING . If you know your spouse committed a crime and yet didn't turn them in ? your as guilty as they are.

And American has had it's pound of flesh and then some. There were no al qeada in Iraq until bush invaded. That means all those civilians killed ? murder plane and simple. I don't give a hoot what Saddam did - that's a child's argument trying to blame someone else for their own actions . that was also something for the UN to deal with.

so maybe if a million christians file in front of the white house and demanded bush stop and a million muslims file in front of the Iraqi government and demanded stop it would.

Al qeada is of late losing patriots . why ? because religious leaders are telling people over and over again it isn't worth it. that violence never solves anything. that only the weak brained resort to it.

but most don't wish to do anything. they think 'someone else will' . that applies to anything. the homeless , the poor , the starving. pollution , hate , prejudice and ignorance. People can't see past their own back yards nor care about anything past it. that is why religion is ineffective. if it acted en mass things would change. just like the proletariats in the book 1984. ( great book )

I agree with you. Also I have read 1984 several times and believe George Orwell knew things behind political scenes that many of the masses (as well as politicians) didnt know of. Religion (in the sense you speak of) that doesnt act on injustices when they arise in my view isnt religion. Religion when properly followed through i.e being moral, motivates one to do things about their life that will make a positive change to oneself and the rest of society.

Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King are great examples of this, or even all the buddhist monks over in Burma who non-violently protested against their government. I dont think religion is to blame but the individuals who falsely proclaim to be of it. Most Christians are not christians in my view and the same goes with all the religious sects. I myself am not a true Christian in this sense.

But you are right that unless us proles become united in guarding our rights and not allowing governments to make unjust decisions, nothing will ever truly change. There will be in the west at least pretend democracies with no radical change and when rights are forgotten the new generation masses wont miss what they never had.

Pacify with no conviction religion and scientific technology.

[Doug1029]

No offense meant Ghost It Notes, but I find that incredibly hard to believe.

Somewhere I read that only about 2000 christians were executed by the Romans. It seems rather easy to believe that more than that number have been killed because of their affiliation with that group during the last 100 years.

According to Mako, there is no historical evidence to support the contention that Christians were executed by the Romans. That post was a long time ago and I don't feel like digging it up, but it is somewhere on this site.

My own POV: the gospels were written during the 4th Century and heavily redacted in the early 6th Century. Using them as a historical source on the First Century is a dubious proposal.

--Doug

[hetrodoxly]

ah your wrong. they were killed and called heathens. Native children were taken , put in orphanages and forced to study christanity .

# Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity............

cont ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

How many people have been killed by Christians since Biblical times?

http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/10...n-killed-by.php

From your link, this had nothing to do with religion the Irish had converted to christianity lock stock and barrel a thousand years before this date, this was a war between noblemen over land (as usual the innocent suffered) it was the Irish who started to convert the English to Christianity and the English resisted conversion often reverting back to their pagan roots when the king, chieftain etc. died, this makes the validity of this site very suspect.

16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".

Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [sH99,

[Sadonis]

ah your wrong. they were killed and called heathens. Native children were taken , put in orphanages and forced to study christanity .

# Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity............

cont ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

How many people have been killed by Christians since Biblical times?

http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/10...n-killed-by.php

Not sure how old this is...I don't think it's old but w/e.

Gold

Glory

God

The three G's.

Often given as the reason Spanish explorers went into the new world in the first place.

Yes...they were here to spread their ideals of God.

But mostly those that sought profit on these expeditions came for GOLD. Just because religion happened to take precedence once they realized their wasn't much GOLD doesn't mean it was the main reason the Natives were killed.

I mean...aside from the disease of which their bodies had no immunity against.

The Spanish came for Gold and God while other expeditions were usually for land which in turn eventually turned into trade with the Native Americans which eventually soured when people tried to convert them and the settlers needed more land.

[Nik Xues]

There will always be heretics.

ironically they were the ones with the least to gain from it.

The problem nowadays is no one stands up "alone" for fear of becoming a heretic. But everyone will agree in secret that the heretic is right. So why must someone else make that stand.

Humans are unreliable and weak. We can only Rely on ourselves to take action. Id rather be a dead heretic than a cowardly slave.

the History of the church has seen alot of heretics.

Edited July 25, 2008 by Nik Xues

[Lt_Ripley]

From your link, this had nothing to do with religion the Irish had converted to christianity lock stock and barrel a thousand years before this date, this was a war between noblemen over land (as usual the innocent suffered) it was the Irish who started to convert the English to Christianity and the English resisted conversion often reverting back to their pagan roots when the king, chieftain etc. died, this makes the validity of this site very suspect.

16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".

Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [sH99,

the link had to do with how many people had been killed by christianity.

on when christianity settled the lands ---

Christian missionaries like Patrick arrived in Ireland in the 5th century A.D., settling close to royal centers of power and targeting local kings and their families. Conversion was a piecemeal operation, but Christianity spread from the top down. Missionaries like Patrick understood that much of the sophisticated religious system already in place fitted in with Christianity. There was convergence and accommodation as many pagan practices were absorbed into the Celtic Irish church, making the new religion easier to accept. Compared to Christianity's spread elsewhere, conversion was gradual and non-violent.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/ancientireland/religion.html

timeline

167 - At the request of King Lucius, the missionaries, Phagan and Deruvian,were said to have been sent by Pope Eleutherius to convert the Britons to Christianity. This is, perhaps, the most widely believed of the legends of the founding of Christianity in Britain.

209 - St. Alban, first British martyr, was killed for his faith in one of the few persecutions of Christians ever to take place on the island, during the governorship of Gaius Junius Faustinus Postumianus (there is controversy about the date of Alban's martyrdom. Some believe it occurred during the persecutions of Diocletian, in the next century, although we opt for the earlier dating).

303 - Diocletian orders a general persecution of the Christians

306 - Constantine (later to be known as "the Great") was proclaimed Emperor at York.

311 - Persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire ends.

312 - Constantine defeats and kills Maxentius at battle of Milvian Bridge; after seeing a vision of the Cross of Christ in the sky, Constantine realizes that the Christian God may be a powerful ally and decides to attempt to co-opt him for his own purposes.

313 - Edict of Toleration proclaimed at Milan, in which Christianity is made legal throughout the empire.

314 - Three British bishops, for the first time, attend a continental church gathering, the Council of Arles.

quick jump -

429 - At the request of Palladius, a British deacon, Pope Celestine I dispatches bishops Germanus of Auxerre and Lupus of Troyes to Britain to combat Pelagian heresy. While in Britain, Germanus, a former military man, leads Britons to "Hallelujah" victory in Wales.

c.432 - Traditional dating for the beginning of St. Patrick's mission to Ireland

550 - St. David takes Christianity to Wales

563 - Irish monk, St. Columba founds a monastery on island of Iona and begins conversion of the Picts to Christianity

c.570 - Probable death of Gildas.

584 - Foundation of the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Mercia in England

597 - The Roman brand of Christianity is brought to Britain for the first time by St. Augustine, the missionary sent from Pope Gregory to convert the Saxons. Augustine founded a monastery and the first church at Canterbury, and was proclaimed its first Archbishop.

http://www.britannia.com/history/time1.html

at any rate it seems England was introduced first. they fought it. so what ? your point is ??????? and that isn't 1000 years. seems 165 years difference.

Edited July 26, 2008 by Lt_Ripley

[GIDEON MAGE]

Ah, Saint Pattie! He drove hundreds of pagan priests into a mass suicide into the sea. They had tatoos of the Midgard Serpent around their right wrists. The church later rewrote this into the "legend" that little St. Pattie drove the "snakes" into the sea. Of course, paleontology has found no evidence of actual snakes in Ireland; not ever.

[Marcus Aurelius]

so how does one justify decisons under uncertainty brahman that is what I am suggesting ??? it does that by subjecting ideas to a a rigorous testing , what seems to acheive the rigour is a seemingly adversial process..see one asks another party to bring to the public the strongest doubts or the strongest grounds for objection, that one can imagine often this is done with experts or reseaching or in my case having lots of PHD pals that are proffessors of something as resources and i am back at school myself working towards my masters........... ... ....the discipline we can use for this is argumetation.....i do feel that any idea that I may consider dying for or advocating or useful for another had better be able to stand up had better be sound ...

the best argument most inspirational pov i had against home schooling was my own mother, and I had lots of them i asked for them.... , she said to me .. well it seems you are very arrogant to think you can do a better job then the public system and yet you have never done this .......perhaps you would want to consider this.....

this pov changed my life, i became an expert by consulting other experts( which I am very fortuante to know alot of educated helpful people ) I learned alot and made it my buisness to ask everyones opinion and no opinion was dismissed because I felt uncomfortable i addressed them all and in it i learned, and refined and reevaluated and learned some more and had damn good articulated reasons as to why I thouhgt this could work and why..I never said I can't explain it I just know blah blah ........... ..... so this works and very well...

why should religion get a free pass?? well I don't think it should....

how do you by a new car ?? or decide on a education for you children or where you will work or what god you will worship??? or if any god warrants such a accolade inthe first place .............i am suggesting a 'objective' that that grounds our decisions in good reasons or at the very least withstands the scrutinty that critical and careful listeners and quality arguers/experts bring to them...

the key word is 'objective' not 'subjective' and a perception that is functional and flexable, not static. one of the intelligences is the abiltiy to adapt ones perspective based on the situation at hand........ ......quite frankly my judgment is sound because this is how I apply it......and I make darn sure I understand my thinking apparatus and its shortcomings and use it to its full potential ....

Good luck in getting your Masters. What are you studying?

Now, as they say, onto the heart of the matter.....

Since you gave a little background on yourself, and how you arrived at where you are, its only fair I do the same. I was in my third year of Bible College at a well respected seminary, studying to become a minister......when.......I began arriving at the same conclusions you have, albeit in a different light. I was one of my professor's top academic students. He joked with me that I should be a theologian instead of a minister. And while that was sort of my leaning, I preached sermons to filled pews. Now I'd lived an interesting philosophical life....from belief to unbelief and skepticism and back again. I studied naturalist philosophy for years; indeed, read many things that made me think there was probably no God. But that changed from EXPERIENCE. Then, there I was, studying to be a minister.....when.....gradually I started to disagree with what I was preaching. I didn't for a second question my belief in God, but rather my perception of same, AND the church. The ONE WAY ONLY path began to eat at me. So I left.

And ever since then, I have studied about every religion known to man lol. I have an entire library of the stuff. So yes, I do hold all of it to scrutiny, or else I would be a preacher in a pulpit right now. That WAS NOT my path. Not for this life, anyway. These other POV changed MY life. I consider myself to be a spiritual person, NOT a religious one. I find beauty and truth in all the religions, and I think there are multiple paths to what we understand as God.

I mean, you're right, ultimately. Religion shouldn't get a free pass. But for me I have studied both sides of the fence (especially in philosophy); and for me, there is no doubt. I have come to this conclusion based upon what I have studied by others, and by my own experiences, both as a spiritualist, and as a professional paranormal investigator. I have had mystical experiences that I can honnestly say and believe with all my heart, beyond any shadow of doubt, regardless of what others may say or think, come from an infinite and loving being outside of the self, a being I call God. And were that not enough for me, as an investigator, I have also witnessed things that I cannot rationally explain away in any other manner, other than....paranormal......and that even in this field, I am convinced that there is something beyond our bodily death.

I appreciate your posts. I enjoy debating open minded skeptics like yourself. But I HAVE held up my own beliefs to scrutiny, I DON'T have BLIND faith. I have logically arrived at these conclusions, just as you have at yours. Actually, you and I are not all that different, we've just landed on different sides of the fence. Just like I said on another thread, its the same as John Locke and Jack from Lost. Two well intentioned people, just different experiences led them to different conclusions.

Edited July 26, 2008 by brahman1888

[hetrodoxly]

the link had to do with how many people had been killed by christianity.

on when christianity settled the lands ---

Christian missionaries like Patrick arrived in Ireland in the 5th century A.D., settling close to royal centers of power and targeting local kings and their families. Conversion was a piecemeal operation, but Christianity spread from the top down. Missionaries like Patrick understood that much of the sophisticated religious system already in place fitted in with Christianity. There was convergence and accommodation as many pagan practices were absorbed into the Celtic Irish church, making the new religion easier to accept. Compared to Christianity's spread elsewhere, conversion was gradual and non-violent.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/ancientireland/religion.html

timeline

167 - At the request of King Lucius, the missionaries, Phagan and Deruvian,were said to have been sent by Pope Eleutherius to convert the Britons to Christianity. This is, perhaps, the most widely believed of the legends of the founding of Christianity in Britain.

209 - St. Alban, first British martyr, was killed for his faith in one of the few persecutions of Christians ever to take place on the island, during the governorship of Gaius Junius Faustinus Postumianus (there is controversy about the date of Alban's martyrdom. Some believe it occurred during the persecutions of Diocletian, in the next century, although we opt for the earlier dating).

303 - Diocletian orders a general persecution of the Christians

306 - Constantine (later to be known as "the Great") was proclaimed Emperor at York.

311 - Persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire ends.

312 - Constantine defeats and kills Maxentius at battle of Milvian Bridge; after seeing a vision of the Cross of Christ in the sky, Constantine realizes that the Christian God may be a powerful ally and decides to attempt to co-opt him for his own purposes.

313 - Edict of Toleration proclaimed at Milan, in which Christianity is made legal throughout the empire.

314 - Three British bishops, for the first time, attend a continental church gathering, the Council of Arles.

quick jump -

429 - At the request of Palladius, a British deacon, Pope Celestine I dispatches bishops Germanus of Auxerre and Lupus of Troyes to Britain to combat Pelagian heresy. While in Britain, Germanus, a former military man, leads Britons to "Hallelujah" victory in Wales.

c.432 - Traditional dating for the beginning of St. Patrick's mission to Ireland

550 - St. David takes Christianity to Wales

563 - Irish monk, St. Columba founds a monastery on island of Iona and begins conversion of the Picts to Christianity

c.570 - Probable death of Gildas.

584 - Foundation of the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Mercia in England

597 - The Roman brand of Christianity is brought to Britain for the first time by St. Augustine, the missionary sent from Pope Gregory to convert the Saxons. Augustine founded a monastery and the first church at Canterbury, and was proclaimed its first Archbishop.

http://www.britannia.com/history/time1.html

at any rate it seems England was introduced first. they fought it. so what ? your point is ??????? and that isn't 1000 years. seems 165 years difference.

From 500AD to 1500AD = 1000.

My point is your link is wrong.