Obama - we must tear down the world's walls

[Cradle of Fish]

That is who we fighting, not the entire muslim world, right?

And if you would like to try diplomacy to such lunatics, then you go ahead. Or no head?

If you're so eager to fight them grab some guns and go fly to palestine. The rest of us will continue trying to find ways to avoid needless violence.

[AROCES]

If you're so eager to fight them grab some guns and go fly to palestine. The rest of us will continue trying to find ways to avoid needless violence.

Sure, and you go as well with your guitar and songs.

Let's see who 's head would be rolling.

Edited July 27, 2008 by AROCES

[AROCES]

To return to the topic of this thread.....

I have just listened to Obama's entire speech again, it is a considered, expertly delivered monologue. It atempts to mend those fences torn down by 8 years of Bushism and was received by an enthusiastic gathering of nearly quarter of million people!!!!

Die Welt makes an interesting point, McCain could never had engendered that kind of support in Berlin, he might have filled a small hall

The people in Berlin can't vote for Obama.

[keithisco]

The people in Berlin can't vote for Obama.

The large Ex-pat US American community in Berlin, the rest of Germany, and europe can though

[Cradle of Fish]

Sure, and you go as well with your guitar and songs.

Let's see who heads would be rolling.

I haven't seen one pacifists 'head roll' in this conflict yet.

[danielost]

YOU are re-writing the history because it is YOU that has assigned these heinous crimes to an entire culture. You said "culture" that means you are assigning all of these extreme acts to an entire belief system. Grow up... read some real history, it wasnt Islam that was the agressor, it was the Roman Catholic church, it was the Inquisition, it was the Witch Hunts,.. Islam allowed Christianity, and Judaism, to flourish in Iberia, it was tolerant, it kept alive the spark of invention and creativity whilst the Christian, and Jewish forces chose to impose doctrinal mandates...

The renaissance in europe was ony achievable because of the incredibly detailed work and transcriptions that the Islamic world produced, of the ancient philosophies of Greece and Rome, of the technical advances they carefully transcribed and made freely available to everyone, regardless of religious bigotry.

You are not better Aroces than these people.... your entire comfortable lifestyle is testament to their (not your) achievements.

We are talking about an entire culture that demanded the death of the Pope because he quoted someone.

We are talking about an entire culture that demanded the death of all non-Muslims in Norway because a newspaper made a picture of their prophet.

We are talking about an entire culture that demanded the removal of the whole French government because they didn't want Muslim hair dress worn in school.

We are talking about an entire culture that kills their women out of honor.

We are talking about a culture that punishes the woman who gets raped not the rapers.

We are talking about an entire culture where one man on a train made an insulting remark and they kill every non-Muslim on the train.

We are talking about an entire culture that take a public school and made it into a Muslim school here in the USA.

We are talking about an entire culture that made some girls go back into a burning building because they didn't dress right to be out in public.

Maybe we should help them out. Declare a jihad on them and kill them all so they can all go to heaven. Sorry I don't really mean this.

Edited July 27, 2008 by danielost

[keithisco]

We are talking about an entire culture that demanded the death of the Pope because he quoted someone.

We are talking about an entire culture that demanded the death of all non-Muslims in Norway because a newspaper made a picture of their prophet.

We are talking about an entire culture that demanded the removal of the whole French government because they didn't want Muslim hair dress worn in school.

We are talking about an entire culture that kills their women out of honor.

We are talking about a culture that punishes the woman who gets raped not the rapers.

We are talking about an entire culture where one man on a train made an insulting remark and they kill every non-Muslim on the train.

We are talking about an entire culture that take a public school and made it into a Muslim school here in the USA.

We are talking about an entire culture that made some girls go back into a burning building because they didn't dress right to be out in public.

Maybe we should help them out. Declare a jihad on them and kill them all so they can all go to heaven. Sorry I don't really mean this.

You cannot be farther from the truth...

This not a "culural" thing at all, this is you reading about some tiny minority of extremists within a single religion acting outside of the Qu'ran and its teachings. Just like every Christian denomination and sect acts outside of the teachings of the Bible.

If you are stating that Islam is a culture, and that appears to be your position then you are clearly wrong. If you are talking about cultural sub-groups within Islam then you are right.

You are stereotyping an entire religion, that is shameful and intolrant. If you really want to understand the reality of Islam, and Islamic countries I can recommend Queen Rania (of Jordan) You-tube channel (just enter Queen rania into the search box), she has asked for peoples stereotypes of Islam, and personally adds videoresponses trying to explain the reality.

Your ignorance of the teachings of Islam will hold you in good stead should you ever run for Govt. Office within a republican Administration.

[AROCES]

The large Ex-pat US American community in Berlin, the rest of Germany, and europe can though

Same way they voted for Gore and Kery?

[AROCES]

If you are stating that Islam is a culture, and that appears to be your position then you are clearly wrong. If you are talking about cultural sub-groups within Islam then you are right.

But that is who we been fighting, and been refering to ALWAYS! But you folks always, just always would talk or mix in like we mean or are after the whole muslim world for argument sake.

And it is not just a small group of people, the extreme Muslims have supporters in good numbers. IT IS A CULTURE.

Edited July 27, 2008 by AROCES

[InHuman]

But that is who we been fighting, and been refering to ALWAYS! But you folks always, just always would talk or mix in like we mean or are after the whole muslim world for argument sake.

And it is not just a small group of people, the extreme Muslims have supporters in good numbers. IT IS A CULTURE.

Pie Chart or you're lieing.

[AROCES]

I haven't seen one pacifists 'head roll' in this conflict yet.

You waiting???

[AROCES]

Pie Chart or you're lieing.

Ever seen a mass group of Muslims condemn or protest the human bombs, head cutting or stoning to death of someone?

[AROCES]

To return to the topic of this thread.....

I have just listened to Obama's entire speech again, it is a considered, expertly delivered monologue. It atempts to mend those fences torn down by 8 years of Bushism and was received by an enthusiastic gathering of nearly quarter of million people!!!!

Die Welt makes an interesting point, McCain could never had engendered that kind of support in Berlin, he might have filled a small hall

He made sure the Libs in Germany are satisfied that he didn't have time to visit the wounded soldiers.

I understand the campaign scrapped it when they learned no staff or media will be allowed.

[InHuman]

Ever seen a mass group of Muslims condemn or protest the human bombs, head cutting or stoning to death of someone?

Even if they do speak out, people don't care to listen... the media has a easier time selling a evil-suicide-bombing population of muslims, rather then a diverse religion that created extremists. Look at the populations of places like indonesia where the overwhelming majority is against this (killing of civillians/suicde).

But don't take my word for it, I don't have a pie chart.

Edited July 29, 2008 by InHuman

[AROCES]

Even if they do speak out, people don't care to listen... the media has a easier time selling a evil-suicide-bombing population of muslims, rather then a diverse religion that created extremists. Look at the populations of places like indonesia where the overwhelming majority is against this (killing of civillians/suicde).

But don't take my word for it, I don't have a pie chart.

How do you know when they don't speak out?

Some go by polls, you go by pie chart?

Edited July 29, 2008 by AROCES

[Lt_Ripley]

How do you know when they don't speak out?

Some go by polls, you go by pie chart?

ah but they have spoken out. .... you just haven't been listening ! let's skip what bin laden was trying to originally do. but there is a story there which includes the US.

let's go to Iraq. Where 2 of my family members have served. the 3rd ? looks like he'll be shipped to Afghanistan.

My sister in laws brother served there during that original vote . remember the one where you saw all those pics of purple fingers ?? here's the part most aren't aware of . Most of those out laying Iraqi's were told if they voted the Americans would withdrawl. not to forget some area's didn't get to vote . why ? it wouldn't form the government Bush wanted to put in place.

thankfully Maliki is starting to find a backbone. he must have enough cash from this administration. each time he opened his mouth against bush he got a call from washington and would later recant. corruption in this new government is rampant. but now it's not playing heel anymore. grrrrr makes bushco mad.

Iraqi's have stated they want our withdrawl a few times now. we didn't listen. they have stated our presence is adding to violence not controlling it. and they have spoken out on many things

like abu ghaib

about our intention with their oil

Demonstrators chant slogans during a protest in Baghdad October 6, 2007. Members of the Iraqi Democratic Nation Party held a rally in Baghdad on Saturday protesting against the federal system in Iraq which was proposed by the U.S. Senate. The writing on the banner reads " No No to Federalism, United Iraq from south to north and from east to west".

how about lately ?

Tens Of Thousands Of Iraqis Protest US-Iraq Security Deal

May 30, 2008

BAGHDAD — Tens of thousands rallied in several cities Friday against a proposed U.S.-Iraqi security agreement, raising doubts that negotiators can meet a July target to finalize a pact to keep U.S. troops in Iraq after the current U.N. mandate expires.

Although U.S. officials insist they are not seeking permanent bases, suspicion runs deep among many Iraqis that the Americans want to keep at least some troops in the country for many years.

"We denounce the government's intentions to sign a long-term agreement with the occupying forces," Asaad al-Nassiri, a sheik loyal to anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, said during a sermon in Kufa. "Our army will be under their control in this agreement, and this will lead to them having permanent bases in Iraq."

President Bush and Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki signed a statement last December on the future of U.S.-Iraqi relations, saying they planned to finalize a new security agreement by July 31 _ in time for Iraq's parliament to approve the deal before a U.N. mandate expires at the end of the year.

U.S. and Iraqi officials began negotiations in March on a blueprint for the long-term security agreement and a second deal, to establish the legal basis for U.S. troops to remain in the country after the U.N. mandate runs out.

Rallies in Baghdad and several other Iraqi cities followed Friday prayer services and were the first in wake of a call by al-Sadr for weekly protests against the deal, even though few details of the talks have been released.

Most of the protesters appeared to be followers of al-Sadr, the hardline Shiite cleric and militia leader whose Mahdi Army battled American and Iraqi troops in Baghdad's Sadr City district until a truce this month ended nearly seven weeks of fighting.

But opposition to the agreement appears to be growing beyond the Sadrist movement.

A militant Sunni clerical group, the Association of Muslim Scholars, denounced the "ring of secrecy" surrounding the talks and said the proposed deal would pave the way for "military, economic and cultural domination" by the Americans.

On Thursday, the head of the country's biggest mainstream Shiite party, Abdul-Aziz al-Hakim, said some unspecified points under negotiation "violate Iraq's national sovereignty," adding that a "national consensus" was emerging against the proposed agreement.

Al-Hakim is al-Sadr's main rival in the majority Shiite community and maintains close ties to the country's main Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani. Aides to the powerful ayatollah say he also has reservations about the deal.

Some congressional Democrats are also insisting that Congress should authorize any agreement that would obligate the United States to defend Iraq.

Before the Friday protests, al-Sadr's office in Baghdad issued a statement branding the negotiations as "a project of humiliation" aimed at turning Iraq "into a small stooge of the United States."

U.S. officials have declined to comment on the talks until the draft is completed.

Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari said two weeks ago that "we are making progress" although other Iraqi officials acknowledged there were many unresolved issues, including how many Americans would remain and what they would do. American soldiers now enjoy full immunity from the Iraqi legal system.

The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not supposed to talk about the negotiations.

Rallies against the security deal occurred as the U.S. military was seeking to contain the public relations damage caused by reports that an American Marine handed out coins promoting Christianity to Sunni Muslims in the former insurgent stronghold of Fallujah.

Sunni officials and residents said a Marine distributed about 10 coins at a checkpoint controlling access to the city, the scene of one of the fiercest battles of the war.

One side asked: "Where will you spend eternity?"

The other contained a verse from the New Testament: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16."

Mohammed Hassan Abdullah said he witnessed the coins being handed out on Tuesday as he was waiting at the Halabsa checkpoint, although he didn't receive one himself.

The U.S. military responded quickly to the incident, first reported by McClatchy Newspapers, removing a Marine from duty pending an investigation. Military regulations forbid proselytizing any religion.

"Indications are this was an isolated incident _ an individual Marine acting on his own accord passing out coins," Lt. Col. Chris Hughes, a spokesman for U.S. forces in western Iraq, said in an e-mailed statement.

Distribution of the coins was the second perceived insult to Islam by American service members this month. A U.S. Army sniper was sent out of the country after using a Quran, Islam's holy book, for target practice in a predominantly Sunni area west of Baghdad.

"This event did not happen by chance, but it was planned and done intentionally," Sheik Abdul-Rahman al-Zubaie, an influential tribal leader in Fallujah, said of the coins. "The Sunni population cannot accept and endure such a thing. I might not be able to control people's reactions if such incidents keep happening."

__

Iraqi's protest

now ........ what if some country invaded American because they hated Bush and decided to take him out ? invaded to control our natural resources ? Bombed our country to shreds and arrested you for being a terrorist because you own a gun ? how would you feel if that country kept on making excuses for it's actions. ? impoverished your community ? harrassed you ? shot at you ? limited your freedom ?

how long would it take before becoming a 'terrorist' to get that invading country out of your own ? or would you just kneel like a dog before them and let them do as they please while saying it's for your own good ?

their culture beheads and we find it horrifying. no doubt it is. but traditional. we invaded their culture so you can't expect them to react the way you want them too. that's ignorance . don't want anyone beheaded ? well then we shouldn't have invaded ! by invading we took that chance ! Just like it's American male culture to be obsessed with homosexuality and force prisoners into mimicking poses to get our jollies off on . to shame them of course . yet it really shows how obsessed straight men are with g*a*y sex. Not to forget how obsessed we are with pointing at naked prisioners and laughing. like little kids giggling at seeing ' pee pee' parts as Bill Mahar put it . lol

I can't help but think there would be no beheadings at all if we had stayed out of Iraq.

Edited July 29, 2008 by Lt_Ripley

[AROCES]

ah but they have spoken out. .... you just haven't been listening ! let's skip what bin laden was trying to originally do. but there is a story there which includes the US.

let's go to Iraq. Where 2 of my family members have served. the 3rd ? looks like he'll be shipped to Afghanistan.

My sister in laws brother served there during that original vote . remember the one where you saw all those pics of purple fingers ?? here's the part most aren't aware of . Most of those out laying Iraqi's were told if they voted the Americans would withdrawl. not to forget some area's didn't get to vote . why ? it wouldn't form the government Bush wanted to put in place.

Ever wonder why it is only your sister in laws brother and you who knew about it???

thankfully Maliki is starting to find a backbone. he must have enough cash from this administration. each time he opened his mouth against bush he got a call from washington and would later recant. corruption in this new government is rampant. but now it's not playing heel anymore. grrrrr makes bushco mad.

Iraqi's have stated they want our withdrawl a few times now. we didn't listen. they have stated our presence is adding to violence not controlling it. and they have spoken out on many things

There you go, that is how we want it. The Iraqi leader speaking for them.

Edited July 29, 2008 by AROCES

[Lt_Ripley]

Ever wonder why it is only your sister in laws brother and you who knew about it???

There you go, that is how we want it. The Iraqi leader speaking for them.

he spoke for them a few times for withdrawl. we didn't care to listen.

actually it did make it in the news , barely. it was the carrot on the stick. some were kept from voting and some rounded up to vote.

No More Purple Fingers: GOP Disappointed with Iraq’s Government

..............But even at the time, most commentators seemed to miss the significance of the elections, which astute observers noted actually pointed to the desire of the Iraqi people for U.S. and coalition forces to leave their country. As Matthew Rothschild wrote in The Progressive,

Despite President Bush’s trumpeting of the elections as a symbol of support for the U.S. efforts, many Iraqi voters, like [Khalid] Kareem, cast their ballots to boot out the Americans. Even in Fallujah, a city that is one of the most potent symbols of resistance to the occupation and the new government, local leaders and resistance groups risked assassination by jihadis by encouraging their followers to vote and avoid attacking polling stations. In some cases, these leaders even called upon their people to protect polling stations from Al Qaeda operatives, who threatened death for anyone participating in the political process.

Rothschild quoted Moayed Jassim Abed, a truck driver from Ramadi, who seemed to reflect the sentiments of many Iraqi voters, that their primary concern in electing their government was the ongoing problem of security. “We want security and stability,” Abed said. “The Americans have been there three years and they have done worse than Saddam has done.”

By participating in the electoral process and electing a national government, Abed, like so many other Iraqis, hoped that he would be hastening the day that the Americans would leave.

Beyond anecdotal evidence, Rothschild also cited a nationwide poll conducted just before the election:

A recent Oxford Research Associates poll conducted for a number of Western media organizations found two-thirds of Iraqis oppose the presence of U.S. troops in their country. In the same poll, “occupation forces” came last behind religious leaders, police, the United Nations, the new Iraqi army, and political parties when Iraqis were asked, “How much confidence do you have in …?” A survey conducted by Iraqi pollster Saadoun Al-Dulaimi (now the minister of defense) ahead of the January 2005 elections found that 85 percent of Iraqis wanted withdrawal “as soon as possible.”

A secret poll taken by the British Ministry of Defense less than a year later found an even greater majority of Iraqis opposing the presence of foreign troops in their country. The poll, reported the conservative British Telegraph, found that 82% of Iraqis opposed the occupation and that up to 65% of Iraqis supported attacks on occupation forces. Fewer than one percent thought that U.S. and British military involvement was helping to improve security in their country.

http://consortiumblog.wordpress.com/2007/0...aqs-government/

http://www.democracyarsenal.org/2005/12/iraqi_elections.html

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1003-34.htm

but you go ahead and keep swallowing the con propaganda. tasty , but not the truth.

Edited July 29, 2008 by Lt_Ripley

[keithisco]

Lt Ripley....

have you ever noticed that no matter the depth of your research, and depth of consideration Aroces only ever replies with a single line? No statement supported by any thought??

I think he is trying to make as many posts as possible, in competition with his classmates

Probably best to ignore him, he doesnt want a serious debate, either he posts what his dad tells him to post, or he is in serious competition with his "friends". Either way he is a waste of space....IMO

[AROCES]

Lt Ripley....

have you ever noticed that no matter the depth of your research, and depth of consideration Aroces only ever replies with a single line? No statement supported by any thought??

I think he is trying to make as many posts as possible, in competition with his classmates

Probably best to ignore him, he doesnt want a serious debate, either he posts what his dad tells him to post, or he is in serious competition with his "friends". Either way he is a waste of space....IMO

Then stop reading my short post???? No wonder you waste time, you already know and you still doing it?

[keithisco]

Then stop reading my short post???? No wonder you waste time, you already know and you still doing it?

Yet another post with no content

Are you beating the 5th graders yet? No...

[AROCES]

Yet another post with no content

Are you beating the 5th graders yet? No...

You are no different from those who gets annoyed with those who slows down and look at a traffic accident, and when you pass by it, you look at it yourself.

[BiffSplitkins]

You are no different from those who gets annoyed with those who slows down and look at a traffic accident, and when you pass by it, you look at it yourself.

LOL - hey I'm one of those 'rubberneckers' too... LOL

but not when it comes to politics