Is Nasa out of line on global warming ?

[UM-Bot]

Christopher Booker: Considering that the measures recommended by the world's politicians to combat global warming will cost tens of trillions of dollars and involve very drastic changes to our way of life, it might be thought wise to check the reliability of the evidence on which they base their belief that our planet is actually getting hotter.

View: Full Article | Source: The Telegraph

[Essan]

I know Christopher Booker is out of line on global warming (much as I normally like him) - failing to understand that AGW and natural variation can exist side by side or, indeed, that AGW involves a lot more than just carbon emissions.

Mind you, same could be said about most other popular commentators on the issue

[Lt_Ripley]

after reading the article and the letters too such -

it reminds me of right rhetoric. that only see points and not the whole. and that companies paying private scientists to BS their way in line of facts in order to continue business as usual where profit is king should be a warning sign. http://www.itres.com/Oil_And_Gas

even if global climate change is found to be totally wrong that it's part of a natural global occurance that we're just pushing faster ( that's what I think) .......... isn't it better we as a race that's part of this world care for it better by using fuels other than oil and coal ?? it's it better to pollute less ? to care for our air and water ? to be more responsible to what keeps and gives us life ? well that takes work and change.

so either your for being responsible or you a selfish no good slob . your pick.

Edited July 30, 2008 by Lt_Ripley

[Mr. Rightchessness]

Ripley here speaks the words of truth

[Wickian]

after reading the article and the letters too such -

it reminds me of right rhetoric. that only see points and not the whole. and that companies paying private scientists to BS their way in line of facts in order to continue business as usual where profit is king should be a warning sign. http://www.itres.com/Oil_And_Gas

even if global climate change is found to be totally wrong that it's part of a natural global occurance that we're just pushing faster ( that's what I think) .......... isn't it better we as a race that's part of this world care for it better by using fuels other than oil and coal ?? it's it better to pollute less ? to care for our air and water ? to be more responsible to what keeps and gives us life ? well that takes work and change.

so either your for being responsible or you a selfish no good slob . your pick.

I agree that we should eventually make plans for cleaner fuels and such(last time I went to NY my lungs actually hurt from the smog), but since only 3% of co2 annually even comes from us I don't think we contribute at all to GW. In the future it would be a good idea to gradually convert over to alternative sources(once they are viable for mass production/consumption) in a way that doesn't damage the economy or our quality of life.

[War Eagle]

Maybe they should have titled it NASA out of alignment on Global Warming, eh...

This post was edited by REBEL today at 9:10am because he hasn't had his espresso yet.

Edited July 30, 2008 by REBEL

[MasterPo]

Christopher Booker: Considering that the measures recommended by the world's politicians to combat global warming will cost tens of trillions of dollars and involve very drastic changes to our way of life<SNIP>

That's the key here.

PLEASE!!!! Take a moment and REALLY think this through!!!

People like Al Gore want changes that will be a DRASTIC and TOTAL re-engineering of America and American society (while of course finding ways to exempt themselves!!)

This is NOT about simply changing the kind of light bulb you use or the type of motor in your car (all which too have many costs and issues).

This will be a TOTAL change in your life.

And taxes, fees, penalties likes of which history has never seen!!

So before we totaly destory ourselves inorder to save ourselves, isn't it best to know if there really is something to save us from??

[Lt_Ripley]

That's the key here.

PLEASE!!!! Take a moment and REALLY think this through!!!

People like Al Gore want changes that will be a DRASTIC and TOTAL re-engineering of America and American society (while of course finding ways to exempt themselves!!)

This is NOT about simply changing the kind of light bulb you use or the type of motor in your car (all which too have many costs and issues).

This will be a TOTAL change in your life.

And taxes, fees, penalties likes of which history has never seen!!

So before we totaly destory ourselves inorder to save ourselves, isn't it best to know if there really is something to save us from??

yes and oil is not infinite. what we need is a total change. that total change could also rebuild America. Build new industry and jobs , that keeps people working. that keeps America in the fore front moving instead of in the Pack fighting for a declining more expensive fuel . that saves us money in the long run.... but cons never were good with long term vision. .Please really take a moment to REALLY think this through.

it isn't that we destroy ourselves to save ourselves. we create ourselves to save ourselves.

economically we are floundering. If each home had to have at least 1 solar panel and a wind mill - most could be off the grid ... people would be working for years to come ............remember oil is finite and we'll need it for more important things down the line than gas for car or home ...... like the medical field.

so life won't be the same cushie as you like it to be..... grow up and be a man. open that damn wallet and quit being cheap. care for something other than yourself . your going to have to anyway if you thought Iraq was worth it ( the ones who agree with it should have to solely pay for it ).

Edited July 31, 2008 by Lt_Ripley

[Lt_Ripley]

I agree that we should eventually make plans for cleaner fuels and such(last time I went to NY my lungs actually hurt from the smog), but since only 3% of co2 annually even comes from us I don't think we contribute at all to GW. In the future it would be a good idea to gradually convert over to alternative sources(once they are viable for mass production/consumption) in a way that doesn't damage the economy or our quality of life.

humans only contribute 3 % of co2 ? maybe just by breathing yes.

a long but great article on warming , the history there of and what now --

http://www.aip.org/history/climate/impacts.htm#impacts

[MasterPo]

I am trying very hard to control myself....

I presume you are very young and idealistic so I will try very hard not to lash too much at you. And if you're not young, if you're around my age, there's a saying "Young and conservative - no heart, old and liberal - no hope".

If each home had to have at least 1 solar panel and a wind mill - most could be off the grid

Really? How just how do you propose all that is paid for? I've looked into solar panels for my home. Would cost $40,000-$45,000. Are you going to give me $40k?

Wind mills? Impossible. First, a wind mill tower would need to be at least 100 feet up. Most towns have building codes that prohibit non-commercial structures more than 30 or so feet. So you'd have to change the building codes in every town/villiage/city in the country! The Federal government does not have the authority under the U.S. Constitution to mandate building codes to the states and localities. Second, I live near an airport. Couldn't do it for obvious reasons. Third, I've looked into wind for sh*ts&giggles. WOuld cost $65,000-$75,000 plus yearly maintenance. You got a spare $65k or $75k laying around?

... people would be working for years to come ............remember oil is finite and we'll need it for more important things down the line than gas for car or home ...... like the medical field.

This makes no sense. Are you trying to say that people who now work in the oil field could be moved over to the medical field? Yea, sure. I'm sure a 50 year old refinery worker would be happy to spend the next 10 years in medical school! You'd go to a refinery work/turned doctor for your health care, right?

You can not take someone who has worked 15-20-25 years in some field or industry and say "For the greater good your job is being eliminated. Here's a new entry-level job in some other totally unrealted field."

A quick less in economics: There is very little growth and health to an economy that only provides the base/basic needs of daily life. A growing, healthy economy is based on people having excess pay beyond what is needed to keep alive day to day AND having places to spend it! I'll bet you drink Starbucks at least twice a week. Do you really need Starbucks coffee?? Is Starbucks coffee essential to human survival? (no jokes please). And it surely isn't cheap!! But you choose to pay for it. That's fine. That's FREEDOM - the ability to earn and keep what you earn, then buy what you want with it. Look at home many people - often kids who need started jobs - make their living from Starbucks. In your vision of this new world I very much doubt places like Starbucks will be allowed.

so life won't be the same cushie as you like it to be.....

Cushie???? This is the 21st century!!! We live in the finest nation on earth, in all of human history!!! Why in Heaven's name shouldn't we live a good life if you're worked hard for it?!?!?! Why the hell am I busting my *** 50-60 hours a week, dealing with work and **** just so I can live in a tiny government mandadted pre-fab cell in some central controlled complex? George Orwell would love you.

grow up and be a man. open that damn wallet and quit being cheap. care for something other than yourself . your going to have to anyway if you thought Iraq was worth it ( the ones who agree with it should have to solely pay for it ).

As it is now between my Federal, State, FICA and Medicare tax I loose 35% of my pay before I even see it! In the last 15 years I've always had to write an extra check come April 15th too! Then there is property tax (I pay $13,000/yr - is that enough for you?), sales tax, excise tax, use tax, energy tax, port tax, import tax, departure tax, disposal tax, water tax, sewer tax, "sin" tax (like on liquors), toll tax, registration tax, personal property tax, imputed value tax, license/permits tax, and in many case "processing fees" up the waaa-zoo to the same government I have to submit these taxes too!

Just let me know when I've paid enough.

[Wickian]

humans only contribute 3 % of co2 ? maybe just by breathing yes.

a long but great article on warming , the history there of and what now --

http://www.aip.org/history/climate/impacts.htm#impacts

If possible I'd like to not start a debate here, so I'll just say that of all the volcanoes, decaying plant matter, the respiration of all living animals on the planet as well as other natural sources, we would have to pump out much more co2 to rival that.

[Lt_Ripley]

I am trying very hard to control myself....

I presume you are very young and idealistic so I will try very hard not to lash too much at you. And if you're not young, if you're around my age, there's a saying "Young and conservative - no heart, old and liberal - no hope".

I'm 42. I just have long term thinking unlike people who think bush is a god and good for this country.

Really? How just how do you propose all that is paid for? I've looked into solar panels for my home. Would cost $40,000-$45,000. Are you going to give me $40k?

try educating yourself below. on the subject.

Wind mills? Impossible. First, a wind mill tower would need to be at least 100 feet up. Most towns have building codes that prohibit non-commercial structures more than 30 or so feet. So you'd have to change the building codes in every town/villiage/city in the country! The Federal government does not have the authority under the U.S. Constitution to mandate building codes to the states and localities. Second, I live near an airport. Couldn't do it for obvious reasons. Third, I've looked into wind for sh*ts&giggles. WOuld cost $65,000-$75,000 plus yearly maintenance. You got a spare $65k or $75k laying around?

This makes no sense. Are you trying to say that people who now work in the oil field could be moved over to the medical field? Yea, sure. I'm sure a 50 year old refinery worker would be happy to spend the next 10 years in medical school! You'd go to a refinery work/turned doctor for your health care, right?

You can not take someone who has worked 15-20-25 years in some field or industry and say "For the greater good your job is being eliminated. Here's a new entry-level job in some other totally unrealted field."

why that's exactly what this administration has done and they are called auto workers. among other industries.

A quick less in economics: There is very little growth and health to an economy that only provides the base/basic needs of daily life. A growing, healthy economy is based on people having excess pay beyond what is needed to keep alive day to day AND having places to spend it! I'll bet you drink Starbucks at least twice a week. Do you really need Starbucks coffee?? Is Starbucks coffee essential to human survival? (no jokes please). And it surely isn't cheap!! But you choose to pay for it. That's fine. That's FREEDOM - the ability to earn and keep what you earn, then buy what you want with it. Look at home many people - often kids who need started jobs - make their living from Starbucks. In your vision of this new world I very much doubt places like Starbucks will be allowed.

you mean like the jobs that have left and what is available now ? I've never been in Starbucks in my life. but a new industry to service and install solar panels , to manufacture them , not to mention the smaller companies that pop up around larger industry = many jobs. many good paying jobs. If they are kept here . buy American.

Cushie???? This is the 21st century!!! We live in the finest nation on earth, in all of human history!!! Why in Heaven's name shouldn't we live a good life if you're worked hard for it?!?!?! Why the hell am I busting my *** 50-60 hours a week, dealing with work and **** just so I can live in a tiny government mandadted pre-fab cell in some central controlled complex? George Orwell would love you.

guess what . it's getting less cushie. and plenty of people all over the world I would bet work harder than you for barely anything so be careful . there are children that work 50 - 60 hours a week. your spoiled by other standards.

As it is now between my Federal, State, FICA and Medicare tax I loose 35% of my pay before I even see it! In the last 15 years I've always had to write an extra check come April 15th too! Then there is property tax (I pay $13,000/yr - is that enough for you?), sales tax, excise tax, use tax, energy tax, port tax, import tax, departure tax, disposal tax, water tax, sewer tax, "sin" tax (like on liquors), toll tax, registration tax, personal property tax, imputed value tax, license/permits tax, and in many case "processing fees" up the waaa-zoo to the same government I have to submit these taxes too!

hey get ready for that I supported the Iraq war tax .........you broke it you bought it.

Just let me know when I've paid enough.

when you die you'll know. same as the rest of us. cushie living isn't cheap

solar panel projects

you should try better at controlling yourself. and gain the ability to see long term. here , try educating yourself.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/2...-bn11solar.html

http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/04...d_for_2000.html

here , if your really cheap - diy

http://www.cleanpower.thesietch.org/projec...panel/index.htm

federal and state incentives

a list of Federal, state, and local rebates and tax incentives for your area. In some cases that can reduce your cost up to 50%.

http://www.dsireusa.org/

A very general rule of thumb: Small, single-PV-panel systems that produce about 75 watts can cost about $900 installed, or $12 per watt. A 2-kilowatt (1 kilowatt=1,000 watts) system that meets most energy needs of an extremely energy-efficient home can cost $16,000-$20,000 installed, or $8-$10 per watt. A 5-kilowatt system that completely meets the energy needs of many conventional homes can cost $30,000-$40,000 installed, or $6-$8 per watt. ( I've seen it much cheaper )

Despite the initial investment, solar systems can substantially reduce costs of energy over time and add value to your home. Plus, you might be eligible for government financial support as an incentive to buy your solar panels.

What Incentives are Available for Going Solar?

Location counts in another way besides having an effect on how much sun your system gets. If you live in a state with generous incentives to install solar systems, you might be able to get rebates, low-interest loans, state tax credits and exemptions, and other perks for switching to the sun. Federal grants and tax credits may also be available. Sometimes builders and utility companies offer incentives for solar systems.

A new federal law provides a 30% tax credit, maximum $2,000 for PV, solar water heaters and fuel cells installed in 2006 and 2007. Also, listed below are some examples of incentive programs in MA, GA, AZ, CA and IL. They come from a website that keeps track of incentives for renewable energy in all 50 states. The Website will provide more detailed information; the programs below are only a small summary of what is available.

http://www.trustyguides.com/solar-panels2.html

on windmills -

http://www.baywinds.com/new/Manitowoc%20He...ind%20saves.htm

Edited August 1, 2008 by Lt_Ripley

[Lt_Ripley]

If possible I'd like to not start a debate here, so I'll just say that of all the volcanoes, decaying plant matter, the respiration of all living animals on the planet as well as other natural sources, we would have to pump out much more co2 to rival that.

you didn't read it did you ? there is no debate to be made.

[MasterPo]

I don't really care about California, Cleveland, or Mass. I live in New York, Long Island. Here it will cost me $40-$45,000 for a full solar array on my house. That's the reality I have to deal with! Good for people in other places if it's cheapr. But I'm not moving my family to Cleveland just to maybe get cheaper solar cells.

And all those so-called "incentives" are vaporware. You have to "qualify" for them which not a lot of people won't. The incentives don't last forever. In my area the cost of electricity would have to double for me to just break even on the "incentives". And even then I still have to lay out the $40-$45,000 first then apply for the incentives, some of which are paid back in dribs and drabs over as long as 20 years! Do the cash flow calculations on it: You loose money.

Why does it always come back to President Bush and Iraq? Why can't greenies like you logically discuss the merits of the claim and the realities of the costs without tying it back to Bush or Iraq?

Could it be you know people like me are right and the only why you can [try to] whip up support for huge costs and outragous taxation is to fall back on tired old rhetoric? Me thinks so...

Tell you what, if you believe soooooo strongly in all this then YOU do it right now! Go ahead and put up your solar panels and wind tower NOW! Show me it can be done. Show us the real bills for the costs, the real way you paid for it all up front, and the real "incentives" paid back to offset the cost. Show us your electric bill and prove it was a great investment. Put your money where your mouth is! If you're going to tell ME how I should live then YOU should be walking the walk already.

But you won't do it. None of you greenies do. You just want to tell hardworking Americans like me how WE should live and spend OUR money.

Sickens me!

[manticor225]

Then there is property tax (I pay $13,000/yr - is that enough for you?), sales tax, excise tax, use tax, energy tax, port tax, import tax, departure tax, disposal tax, water tax, sewer tax, "sin" tax (like on liquors), toll tax, registration tax, personal property tax, imputed value tax, license/permits tax, and in many case "processing fees" up the waaa-zoo to the same government I have to submit these taxes too!

Well that's your first problem right there. You live on Long Island. I'm from Suffolk county, I know what the cost of living is like, and that's why I got out. Don't complain about the price you pay for the place you choose to live.

Also, if everyone were suddenly forced to put a solar panel on their roof, it would not cost $40,000 or more. The only reason the cost is that high now is because there is little to no market for it, as less than .1% of the U.S. currently runs on solar power. Now if you were take 300 million people and require that they have a solar panel on their roof (which would never happen anyway, but for the sake of the argument), the price would drop dramatically as more solar power companies emerge and compete to offer higher quality and less cost.

Edited August 3, 2008 by ilovejules25

[MasterPo]

Well that's your first problem right there. You live on Long Island. I'm from Suffolk county, I know what the cost of living is like, and that's why I got out. Don't complain about the price you pay for the place you choose to live.

A) If I could leave I would in a New York minute!

You don't know me or my situation so you have no basis to say that.

C) It wouldn't matter. If me and thousands like me left LI and other expensive places guess what? Where ever we settled sooner or later (and more sooner than later) prices will also go up! Look at The Raleigh/Durham area of NC. It was very cheap and nice living. Still is cheap and good living but as the population jumped over the last 10 years or so (because it was so nice) prices and problems too have increased.

Also, maybe in Tumble Weed Nebraska or Corn Field Central Iowa a solar system may not be $40-$45k. But it won't be $100 either! It's still a matter of cost anyway you look at it. Who are you or anyone to tell someone "You can afford $10-$15-$20,000 for a solar and wind system"??

Arrogancy.

[manticor225]

A) If I could leave I would in a New York minute!

You don't know me or my situation so you have no basis to say that.

C) It wouldn't matter. If me and thousands like me left LI and other expensive places guess what? Where ever we settled sooner or later (and more sooner than later) prices will also go up! Look at The Raleigh/Durham area of NC. It was very cheap and nice living. Still is cheap and good living but as the population jumped over the last 10 years or so (because it was so nice) prices and problems too have increased.

Also, maybe in Tumble Weed Nebraska or Corn Field Central Iowa a solar system may not be $40-$45k. But it won't be $100 either! It's still a matter of cost anyway you look at it. Who are you or anyone to tell someone "You can afford $10-$15-$20,000 for a solar and wind system"??

Arrogancy.

You're right, I don't know you or the situation you're in. Nor do you know mine or anyone else's. So don't sit there and complain about what you pay to live.

A) As you said, it's a matter of cost anyway you look at it. Honestly I don't care what you pay for your property taxes and I'm not going to feel bad for you. If I pay a third of what you pay, I may still feel my own is expensive based on my own income.

As someone else has also stated, gas is not infinite. Whether global warming is happening or not, the need for alternative energy sources is inevitable. Whether it's solar, wind or whatever, we are going to need a viable replacement eventually. And sooner rather than later. The added bonus is the environmental benefits of cleaner energy, but I better stop right there or you'll label me a "greeny".

C) In all probability, you'll be dead before we're all forced to put up solar panels so none of this would be affecting you anyway. That's not meant to be insulting, it's just the truth. Maybe it would affect your kids (if you have any) though I would hope that they along with the rest of their generation (and my own) will be more open minded.

Also, no where did I tell you what you can afford. I simply stated that the price would come down if it were mass produced. No, the cost probably wouldn't be $100. But how much are you paying now at the pump to fill your tank(s)? In your mind, I'm just a young liberal "greeny" and to me, you're just another old die-hard "let's drill the Gulf of Mexico for lower gas prices in 30 years" conservative.

Ignorance.

Edited August 4, 2008 by ilovejules25

[MasterPo]

You're right, I don't know you or the situation you're in. Nor do you know mine or anyone else's. So don't sit there and complain about what you pay to live.

Like I said to Lt.:

If this is such a GREAT thing to do why haven't you done it? Put your money where you mouth is. Walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

And if you have done it what kind of system? How much did it cost in total? How long did it take? What sort of permits and approvals did you need? What "incentives" are you getting back for having done it?

It's easy to tell others what they should do when it comes to someone else spending their money.

[manticor225]

Like I said to Lt.:

If this is such a GREAT thing to do why haven't you done it? Put your money where you mouth is. Walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

And if you have done it what kind of system? How much did it cost in total? How long did it take? What sort of permits and approvals did you need? What "incentives" are you getting back for having done it?

It's easy to tell others what they should do when it comes to someone else spending their money.

Jeez I never told you to do anything or spend any money on this. I'm not saying that I'm rushing out to throw up solar panels on my house and you need to follow me. No one said that. This was a thread about global warming and if humans are a cause of it. You then turned it into how much you pay on your taxes and that you'll be damned if Al Gore makes you put a $45k solar panel on your house.

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand your point on the cost. The bottomline is that a scenario requiring a solar panel on every house, that would cost every homeowner $45k, would never happen. It couldn't. The government would have to offer an easy low-cost solution to all in order for it to work.

As for "incentives" I'm not really sure what to tell you. You wouldn't have an electric bill. There would be less dependence on oil, which means OPEC wouldn't have this country by the balls anymore. I'm sure a hardworking American such as yourself could appreciate that. And again, there's the cleaner side. Less pollution = less environment destruction, so in the end your kids and your grandkids won't have to look in a history book to see what a polar bear was.

If you are only going to reply with the same points you've repeated in your last two posts, then please don't bother.

[BaneSilvermoon]

I'd personally very much like to go Solar, as well as purchase a Chevy Volt or Lightning GT (drool) in the future. But I have a feeling all of the above are going to be hovering above my affordability range for some time to come heh.

[MasterPo]

Pardon me. No direct insult as intended.

I get very worked up when greenies say we (I) should pay more, get less for it, and be thankful for just being allowed to live altogether. But they themselves haven't done what they preach.

[rideron]

Think about it, human society has evolved over THOUSANDS of years to be what it is today.

If a non-petroleum energy based society were feasible, perferable, and affordable. THATS WHAT WE WOULD HAVE TODAY: ALREADY.

[MasterPo]

Think about it, human society has evolved over THOUSANDS of years to be what it is today.

If a non-petroleum energy based society were feasible, perferable, and affordable. THATS WHAT WE WOULD HAVE TODAY: ALREADY.

Excellent point!

I don't doubt that someday faaaaaar in the future there will be a bountiful non-petrolium based fuel source (that's assuming politics and PC-ism doesn't stop it). But we aren't there now. And, much contrary to what some are saying, we are very much NOT running out of oil for at least 200 years.

So before we turn back the clock and all have to live spartan life styles (and pay more for it!) let's give technology a chance to evolve too.

ps- If solar and wind are such great options tell me: Why isn't Europe and other countries using more of it? Has France dismantled it's nuke plants in favor of solar or wind? Is Germany replacing gas cars with electric at a break neck pace? Show me the fields of solar cells in Spain and Italy.

If it was such a great option, cheap and plentiful, others would have long since been doing it. Don't show me a field here and there. I'm sure it's there. Show me where a modern nation has replaced 40-50-60% or more of their petrolium energy with solar and wind, maintained it's high standard or living, not driven up costs or economic turmoil, and then you might have a point.

Until them, keep pipe dreaming.

[manticor225]

Think about it, human society has evolved over THOUSANDS of years to be what it is today.

If a non-petroleum energy based society were feasible, perferable, and affordable. THATS WHAT WE WOULD HAVE TODAY: ALREADY.

That makes no sense at all. Yes human society has evolved over THOUSANDS of years, but petroleum energy has only been in use since the 1800's. So what you're saying is that in another THOUSAND years, we're all going to have to make a pit stop at the Shell station on Mars to refill our starships with gasoline? Please.

That's like saying, "if a cancer-free society were feasible, we would have already discovered the cure."

Man this is really starting to get bad...

[Wickian]

I find nothing wrong with using fossil fuels. Without them the industrial revolution would never have started and we would probably be living in a world with similar technology to ancient Rome(I say Rome since they're the most advanced civilization we know of that didn't have engines and such).

We're going to run out of the resources eventually anyway, why force ourselves to stop now?

Edited August 6, 2008 by Wickian