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ShaunZero

CERN's LHC "Super Collider", is it dangerous?

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ShaunZero

According to a friend, the Large Hadron Collider is going to be activated in 6 days from now. I also read that the micro black holes that it will possibly create, will not be a threat, because they will vanish before they can do damage, according to the theoretical hawking radiation. I've also read, however, that hawking radiation has never been observed, and only exists in theory. I'm wondering if hawking radiation would happen to not exist, would these micro blackholes be a threat? What are your concerns about this new LHC, and should we have any concerns? I'm not versed enough in this type of thing to know myself, and all I find is mixed opinions and conflicting ideas.

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Torgo

I have said this before and I will say it again. Even were micro black holes to be produced in the LHC that did not decay (and even the production of such black holes is dependent on the physics of such small scales being what we don't expect them to be) they are not a threat whatsoever. How do we know? Its quite simple. The moon still exists and the sun still exists.

Normal cosmic rays produce, on a regular basis, collisions rivaling the energy the LHC is capable of when they collide with astronomical bodies such as our atmosphere or the surface of the sun or the moon or anything else in our solar system or any other. If the production of black holes is possible during these interactions it would appear that such things are harmless seeing as we don't see stars inexplicably behaving as if they are being eaten from within and both air-covered and airless bodies in our solar system still exist. The sun is the real clincher however - its over a million km in diameter and at its center is ten times as dense as lead. If that doesnt catch a black hole nothing will.

In addition i've done some rough calculations, mentioned in another thread, in which I figured out that the risk posed by a black hole with a whole joule of mass-energy is nil. The GRAVITY of such a black hole is extremely weak - the same as any other particle with that mass. Things can just get closer. In short, assuming things could be swallowed by it by passing a whole TEN THOUSAND TIMES the radius of its event horizon away from it, the odds of it swallowing a single nucleon during a pass through the Earth are something on the order of one in 10^30.

The LHC poses no risk.

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Sardukar

Black holes only shrink over time, they don't grow from consuming matter or anything. Happy to be corrected if i'm wrong.

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Startraveler

Their size is proportional to their mass so, yes, they do grow as they absorb mass.

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ShaunZero

I read something about the micro black holes accumilating over time if they do not evaporate, which would cause a threat. I've also read that they want to produce "stringlets", there is a possibility of a chain reacion which could switch all of the other particles on the earth to stringlets as well, instantly killing humans.

And as I've asked before, what exactly is Hawkins Radiation, and if it does not exist, will micro blackholes still decay? If so, what relevance does Hawkins Radiation have to the safety of this machine?

I get what you're saying about the sun and moon, however, I'm not quite versed in this. Is there a difference at all in how it happens in nature, and how we're going to reproduce it in the LHC? Any new variables at play here?

Edited by ShaunZero

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badeskov
I read something about the micro black holes accumilating over time if they do not evaporate, which would cause a threat. I've also read that they want to produce "stringlets", there is a possibility of a chain reacion which could switch all of the other particles on the earth to stringlets as well, instantly killing humans.

That would be highly unlikely, as we would have been eradicated (or, rather, never give the opportunity to arise) by the black holes generated by nature billions of years ago.

And as I've asked before, what exactly is Hawkins Radiation, and if it does not exist, will micro blackholes still decay? If so, what relevance does Hawkins Radiation have to the safety of this machine?

Hawking radiation is thermal radiation enabled by quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics allows black holes to shed energy that it through classical physics couldn't. All indications are that hawking radiation (or some other mechanism yielding the same resulting effect) exists.

I get what you're saying about the sun and moon, however, I'm not quite versed in this. Is there a difference at all in how it happens in nature, and how we're going to reproduce it in the LHC? Any new variables at play here?

There are only two differences between nature and LHC:

1) Nature can deliver about 100 million times the energy the LHC is capable of. I.e., anything the LHC is capable of producing nature have been producing for billions of years. Thus, any earth gobbling black holes the LHC can produce would already have been produced by nature.

2) The LHC has a fancy set of detectors nature doesn't.

In essence, LHC is like kids playing with fire crackers compared to a nuclear detonation (nature). The whole notion of the LHC producing anything even remotely dangerous to the population of Earth is simply ridiculous :)

Cheers,

Badeskov

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ShaunZero
That would be highly unlikely, as we would have been eradicated (or, rather, never give the opportunity to arise) by the black holes generated by nature billions of years ago.

But according to some, those created in nature are less stable than those that may be created at the LHC. The ones at the LHC, though by a small chance, would have a higher possibility of stabelizing, as they may have time to be "grabbed by earth's gravitational field". Not sure how true any of this is, which is why I created this topic. Trying to get people to reply from both sides. I don't like simply putting my trust in someone(Christian, Scientist, Atheist, etc) without actually understanding the subject more.

Hawking radiation is thermal radiation enabled by quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics allows black holes to shed energy that it through classical physics couldn't. All indications are that hawking radiation (or some other mechanism yielding the same resulting effect) exists.

But what about it never being observed yet? What if it does not exist?

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badeskov
But according to some, those created in nature are less stable than those that may be created at the LHC. The ones at the LHC, though by a small chance, would have a higher possibility of stabelizing, as they may have time to be "grabbed by earth's gravitational field". Not sure how true any of this is, which is why I created this topic. Trying to get people to reply from both sides. I don't like simply putting my trust in someone(Christian, Scientist, Atheist, etc) without actually understanding the subject more.

No, the stability of micro black holes created by nature will be the same as that created by LHC. The only difference is that nature has a lot more energy at it's disposal. Thus if such black holes represented a danger of any kind, we'd know by now (or, rather, we'd be long gone by now).

But what about it never being observed yet? What if it does not exist?

Hawking radiation is so far theoretical, however, somehow black holes are radiating one way or the other. And since nature hasn't produced black holes that has gobbled us up yet, it's a fair assumption that this is not something to be worried about.

Cheers,

Badeskov

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DONTEATUS

Really 6 days till its on line? theres an paradox in that time frame some where? Or was that 7 days LoL. Keep us up on the results

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ShaunZero

My friend made a mistake. It'll be finished being built in a few days, but won't go live for a few months. So, so far the counter arguement is that "it happens in nature and we're still here, so making them ourselves won't be any different"? Sounds good enough for me so far.

Edited by ShaunZero

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chemical-licker

4 days till doomsday :unsure2: cant wait.

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Lord Sappington

Last day according to http://www.lhcountdown.com/...

Prepare for unforeseen consequences.....

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atom286

When I think about Cern I have a really strange instinctual feeling something big is going to happen Saturaday when its turned on.

I'm worried. Anybody else get that feeling something is about to happen to?

Something tells me things are about to change and come Saturday evening we aren't going to be here as we are now.

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chaoszerg
When I think about Cern I have a really strange instinctual feeling something big is going to happen Saturaday when its turned on.

I'm worried. Anybody else get that feeling something is about to happen to?

Something tells me things are about to change and come Saturday evening we aren't going to be here as we are now.

I thought it is going to be switched on today.

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Sweetpumper

Nah. I'm all good.

Looking forward to some camping and some fantasy drafts in the next few weeks.

Who is 'Cern' and why is someone turning him on?

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badeskov
When I think about Cern I have a really strange instinctual feeling something big is going to happen Saturaday when its turned on.

I'm worried. Anybody else get that feeling something is about to happen to?

No! Why should we?!

Something tells me things are about to change and come Saturday evening we aren't going to be here as we are now.

We'll be here, just a bit older. Nothing is going to happen, besides some will probably enjoy a glass of champagne.

Cheers,

Badeskov

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SkepticalEd

Author Dan Brown had it covered back in 2000 in "Angels & Demons." I hear Tom Hanks is growing his hair long again. :w00t:

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ODIN-X

And I thought it would be the Americans to blow up the world..

J/K!

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DONTEATUS

The BBC just said it will be next month for the test? Who`s on First Nack,Nack,NAck!

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Cradle of Fish
When I think about Cern I have a really strange instinctual feeling something big is going to happen Saturaday when its turned on.

I'm worried. Anybody else get that feeling something is about to happen to?

Something tells me things are about to change and come Saturday evening we aren't going to be here as we are now.

First of all, a gut feeling is nothing compared to science, so why should we follow it? If no one had ever mentioned things that could go wrong, would you be worried? No, because you wouldn't know about it, like all the other particle accelerators in the world.

Second, what if that change is a good thing? A gigantic step forward for science? A deeper understanding about the universe and it's origins? That's far more likely than a black hole. Don't worry so much.

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Sweetpumper
linked-image

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Cradle of Fish

This is more accurate. :P

linked-image

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Oderint

[nitpicking]

CERN is always turned on.

Do you mean the particle accelerator?

[/nitpicking]

So long and thanks for all the fish :tu:

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Mr.Dot

Countdown to LHC start-up

There was another countdown that i was looking at on another site, it said on that site that it was suppose to be activated about one hour ago, but i guess that countdown was fake or something, but it was funny because there was some kind of weird thunder sound around that time and i was like :blink:

Edited by Mr.Dot

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