Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
ShaunZero

CERN's LHC "Super Collider", is it dangerous?

195 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

NeoGenesis
Which scientists and where is that stated?! Please provide a link or a reference, as to the best of my knowledge all the scientists working on this are pretty much in agreement that nothing can happen, simply because the LHC has nowhere the energy to unleash such.

They have a very good idea of what will be discovered, and no deadly radiation will come from this. Again, to repeat what has been said over and over: nature does this all the time, just using 10 million times the energy that the LHC can do it with. So, in those terms the LHC is a pebble gun. What is it in that comparison that is so hard to understand?!

Cheers,

Badeskov

Excellent and thorough knowledge and understanding on this subject.I solute you Sir.

Cheers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
badeskov
Excellent and thorough knowledge and understanding on this subject.I solute you Sir.

Cheers.

Thank you for the kind words, and the same to you :tu:

Cheers,

Badeskov

Edited by badeskov

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
dest_titor1

not dangerous, even if it does not exist then the shear amount of mass and energy in such a small state rotating so fast would mean the rotation would destroy the thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ShaunZero

The best thing to do for those who are not willing to accept our claims, we should gather all of the myths about the LHC, and debunk them here. If anyone else can't prove that these claims/myths are true, then we can safely ignore any other posts made about them.

The only one that I think I've researched a bit would be:

Can the LHC create mini-black holes?

If it can, then they are being created as we speak in our atmosphere, where collisions of the same kind, but more power are happening all the time. Based on that, even if the LHC did create blackholes, they would not be dangerous to us, or we'd be dead right now from the ones created in the atmosphere.

What I'd say is a fair worry is: "What if Hawking Radiation does not exist?". If this would be the case, the blackholes, from what I understand, would not evaporate, or at least not as quickly as they would if it did exist. However, since blackholes would be being created in nature as well, we could assume they evaporate too quick to do any damage, as the earth is still here.

I guess I have a question of my own:

How possible is it for a phenomena to only be able to exist in the energy levels of what the LHC will produce, but not be able to be produced in nature due to the higher energy levels? In other words, the huge energy levels in nature prevent the phenomena from occuring.

Edited by ShaunZero

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
badeskov
The best thing to do for those who are not willing to accept our claims, we should gather all of the myths about the LHC, and debunk them here. If anyone else can't prove that these claims/myths are true, then we can safely ignore any other posts made about them.

This one I have a hard time with. Given that nature should have destroyed us all eons ago if such dangers existed really means that it is a waste of time. Just by reading this and other threads on this matter should make that clear (mind you, this is not aimed at you).

The only one that I think I've researched a bit would be:

This I can deal with. Specific questions pertaining to this topic instead of completely unfounded (and absolutely ludicrous doomsday scenarios).

Can the LHC create mini-black holes?

If it can, then they are being created as we speak in our atmosphere, where collisions of the same kind, but more power are happening all the time. Based on that, even if the LHC did create blackholes, they would not be dangerous to us, or we'd be dead right now from the ones created in the atmosphere.

We actually don't know. But if they do their mass and size would be so small that the chance of actually sucking up any more mass before being way beyond the lunar orbit or having evaporated would be extremely small. Torgo made a good calculation in some other thread (I'll dig that up tomorrow if I can find the time).

What I'd say is a fair worry is: "What if Hawking Radiation does not exist?". If this would be the case, the blackholes, from what I understand, would not evaporate, or at least not as quickly as they would if it did exist. However, since blackholes would be being created in nature as well, we could assume they evaporate too quick to do any damage, as the earth is still here.

All indications are that Hawking radiation (or a mechanism like it) does exist. However, the question is kind of moot, as the same theory enabling the creating of miniature black holes is the same theory enabling the Hawking radiation. Thus, if Hawking radiation doesn't exist such black holes couldn't be created in the first place according to physics as we know it.

Cheers,

Badeskov

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ShaunZero
All indications are that Hawking radiation (or a mechanism like it) does exist. However, the question is kind of moot, as the same theory enabling the creating of miniature black holes is the same theory enabling the Hawking radiation. Thus, if Hawking radiation doesn't exist such black holes couldn't be created in the first place according to physics as we know it.

Cheers,

Badeskov

Ahh, okay. I understand now. I remember reading something about the black holes themselves were just hypothetical.

Edited by ShaunZero

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
NeoGenesis
not dangerous, even if it does not exist then the shear amount of mass and energy in such a small state rotating so fast would mean the rotation would destroy the thing.

No that will not happen.The stream of protons used for the experiment is conveyed in a tube if you will of electromagnetism created by extremely powerful electromagnets the tube that is about the size of a closed fist,this happens in the main structure of the accelerator which is a about a meter in diameter.The LHC is equipped with a very accurate telemetry system if a problem does occur the computers will know about it and diagnose the problem before the engineers even took a look at the it.The LHC is a testament of engineering prowess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
NeoGenesis
I guess I have a question of my own:

How possible is it for a phenomena to only be able to exist in the energy levels of what the LHC will produce, but not be able to be produced in nature due to the higher energy levels? In other words, the huge energy levels in nature prevent the phenomena from occuring.

Black Holes need a immense amount of energy to be created.Matter need to be compressed into itself by extremely powerful gravitational forces,that is the very reason that black holes has such a powerful gravitation fields around it.As for the LHC only a small amount of protons are being collided into one another and this happens in the earths gravitation field.The LHC simply does not have the power to kick start any strange phenomena that is the very reason that this does not happen here on earth in nature.Man made devices does not have the power and aw to challenge the powerful forces nature have created over the eons.

Cheers ;) .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ShaunZero

This video could be wrong in what it claims, but if it's not, then does this not mean that the LHC will be creating conditions not happening in nature currently? It claims it will create conditions that did not exist since right after the big bang. I believe it's around the 3:20 mark.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
badeskov
This video could be wrong in what it claims, but if it's not, then does this not mean that the LHC will be creating conditions not happening in nature currently? It claims it will create conditions that did not exist since right after the big bang. I believe it's around the 3:20 mark.

Actually, I think the video is probably slightly misrepresenting what has been said by scientists, not out of malice, but simply out of lack of knowledge. My take is that there should have been a "under controlled conditions" in there somewhere.

The fact of the matter is that nature is doing this all the time; just not under controlled conditions where we have a chance of analyzing the results.

Cheers,

Badeskov

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ShaunZero

Ah, so it's not going to create any "new" conditions or phenomena, or at least "new" to recent times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
badeskov
Ah, so it's not going to create any "new" conditions or phenomena, or at least "new" to recent times.

No, it is not. Such happens all the time in our upper atmosphere as we are constantly being bombarded by high energy particles from various places. The only new here is that it is under controlled conditions where we can measure exactly what happens (well, measure to the best extent possible by our measurement equipment).

High energy protons from Super Novae (http://www2.slac.stanford.edu/VVC/cosmicrays/crsuper.html).

The cosmic rays we are interested in at this web site have a much higher energy than those from the sun. They typically have energies of several billion electron volts (GeV), but they can have many trillion electron volts (TeV).

Emphasis mine. Also, from wiki:

The first observation of a cosmic ray with an energy exceeding 1020electronvolts was made by John Linsley at the Volcanic Ranch experiment in New Mexico in 1962.[1][2]

Cosmic rays with even higher energies have since been observed, among them the Oh-My-God particle (a play on the nickname "God particle" for the Higgs boson), observed on the evening of October 15, 1991, over Dugway Proving Grounds, Utah. Its observation was a shock to astrophysicists, who estimated its energy to be approximately 3 × 1020 electronvolts (50 joules)— in other words, a subatomic particle with macroscopic kinetic energy equal to that of a baseball (142 g) thrown at 100 km/h (60 mph).

It was most likely a proton with a velocity almost equal to the speed of light. In a race, such a proton, traveling at [1 − (5×10−24)] times c, would fall only 46 nanometers behind a photon after one year.[3]

Since the first observation, by the University of Utah's Fly's Eye Cosmic Ray Detector, at least fifteen similar events have been recorded, confirming the phenomenon. These very high energy cosmic rays are however very rare and most cosmic rays possess an energy between 107eV and 1010 eV

Thus, we are constantly hit by high energy protons. The highest energies recorded are on the order of 1020eV. While rare, they still occur frequently enough for us to detect them (and those are only the ones we detected). Cosmic rays having energies around those in the LHC would occur much more frequently.

Looking at LHC, it has collision energies of around 7000GeV (7TeV or 7×1012eV). Total collision energy is thus 14×1012eV (two beams from opposite directions). Or about 10 million times less than the energies recorded in nature.

Thus, it is happening in nature all the time.

Cheers,

Badeskov

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
chemical-licker
No, it is not. Such happens all the time in our upper atmosphere as we are constantly being bombarded by high energy particles from various places. The only new here is that it is under controlled conditions where we can measure exactly what happens (well, measure to the best extent possible by our measurement equipment).

High energy protons from Super Novae (http://www2.slac.stanford.edu/VVC/cosmicrays/crsuper.html).

Emphasis mine. Also, from wiki:

Thus, we are constantly hit by high energy protons. The highest energies recorded are on the order of 1020eV. While rare, they still occur frequently enough for us to detect them (and those are only the ones we detected). Cosmic rays having energies around those in the LHC would occur much more frequently.

Looking at LHC, it has collision energies of around 7000GeV (7TeV or 7×1012eV). Total collision energy is thus 14×1012eV (two beams from opposite directions). Or about 10 million times less than the energies recorded in nature.

Thus, it is happening in nature all the time.

Cheers,

Badeskov

:blink: are you god?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Raptor
I guess I have a question of my own:

How possible is it for a phenomena to only be able to exist in the energy levels of what the LHC will produce, but not be able to be produced in nature due to the higher energy levels? In other words, the huge energy levels in nature prevent the phenomena from occuring.

Nature produces collisions of all different energy levels, including those in the range of what the LHC will produce. There still aren't any signs of micro black holes being created, and if they are, they aren't causing us any harm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jaquariuml

Morning all!

I just wanted to get an update. Today is August 16th so i am assuming that these tests have already begun? Anybody have a website with information and updates on this?

Thanks, Jaq

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Raptor

Hey Jaq, they'll have regular updates on the CERN website, check it out if you're interested. Here's the latest:

LHC synchronization test successful

The synchronization of the LHC's clockwise beam transfer system and the rest of CERN's accelerator chain was successfully achieved last weekend. Tests began on Friday 8 August when a single bunch of a few particles was taken down the transfer line from the SPS accelerator to the LHC.

After a period of optimization, one bunch was kicked up from the transfer line into the LHC beam pipe and steered about 3 kilometres around the LHC itself on the first attempt. On Saturday, the test was repeated several times to optimize the transfer before the operations group handed the machine back for hardware commissioning to resume on Sunday.

The anti-clockwise synchronization systems will be tested over the weekend of 22 August.

CERN

Edited by Raptor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
badeskov
:blink: are you god?

Oh bugger, you found me out...now I need to change user name again (I was actually rather fond of this one) ;)

Cheers,

Badeskov

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
atom286
No, it is not. Such happens all the time in our upper atmosphere as we are constantly being bombarded by high energy particles from various places. The only new here is that it is under controlled conditions where we can measure exactly what happens (well, measure to the best extent possible by our measurement equipment).

Cheers,

Badeskov

[/size]

Excuse me.

This experiment is likely to discover new particles and could therefore lead to new phenomonom or effects.

We could discover new forces, new radiation, stragnelets, micro black holes etc. This collider experiment is not risk free and everybody should be made aware of that fact.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
badeskov
Excuse me.

This experiment is likely to discover new particles and could therefore lead to new phenomonom or effects.

We could discover new forces, new radiation, stragnelets, micro black holes etc. This collider experiment is not risk free and everybody should be made aware of that fact.

Pardon me, but have you been following the thread?! What you are saying is essentially nonsense, if you don't mind my candor. Nature does this all the time. We just don't have the sophisticated measurement equipment surrounding the places it happens. Claiming that LHC will create events not seen in nature is honestly bordering ignorance.

The only difference between nature and LHC is that in the LHC we can measure precisely what happens when it happens.

Cheers,

Badeskov

Edited by badeskov

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
freeman88

Sorry if this was already posted.

"The collider is currently undergoing commissioning while being cooled down to its final operating temperature of approximately 1.9 K (−271.25 °C). Initial particle beam injections were successfully carried out between 8-11th August 2008,[2][3] the first attempt to circulate a beam through the entire LHC is scheduled for September 10, 2008,[4] and the first high-energy collisions are planned to take place after the LHC is officially unveiled, on October 21, 2008."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Owlscrying

The first particles have been injected into the biggest atom smasher on the planet, marking the start of the countdown to probing the secrets of the universe.

Scientists are pushing ahead with powering up the machine, shrugging off speculative fears that it could destroy all life on Earth by sucking it into a black hole.

Earlier this month, the successful injection of the first particles - protons - into part of the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) experiment at CERN, the European Centre for Nuclear Research, took place.

This weekend, scientists are hoping to complete testing of another part of the machine, which sits in a 17 mile circular tunnel approximately 100 metres underneath the Franco-Swiss border, with the aim of seeing particles travel the whole way around for the first time.

As such preparations for the formal September 10th start date continue, the entire machine has been successfully cooled to temperatures below minus 270ºC, a fraction of a degree above the lowest achievable temperature.

In this temperature range, helium becomes a liquid, and is used to cool the superconducting magnets which keep the proton beams circulating at almost the speed of light as well as making the LHC the biggest refrigerator on the planet.

The LHC is the world's most powerful particle accelerator, producing beams seven times more energetic than any previous machine, and around 30 times more intense when it reaches design performance, probably by 2010.

The protons injected into the giant machine are obtained by removing electrons from hydrogen gas and are then accelerated in bunches.

For the tests, the proton bunches were first accelerated by the Super Proton Synchrotron (SPS), a smaller 4.3 mile ring, before injection (like a lane merging onto a motorway) into the LHC, which has to be timed to the nanosecond to work.

Once the individual detectors around the LHC are ready (the "eyes" that study the effects of collisions between particles), further injection tests will attempt to ensure two counter-rotating proton beams circulate throughout the machine.

Capturing the remnants of high energy collisions between these beams will then become possible, setting the stage for the LHC to potentially rewrite the laws of physics as we know them.

Tests will continue into September to ensure that the entire machine is ready to accelerate and collide beams at an energy of 5 TeV per beam, the target energy for the end of 2008 - this is equivalent to each particle having the energy of a flying mosquito squeezed into a space a million million times smaller.

Withstanding any major setbacks, the LHC will see its first circulating beam on 10 September at the injection energy of 450 GeV (0.45 TeV). Once stable circulating beams have been established, they will be brought into collision, and the final step will be to commission the LHC's acceleration system to boost the energy to 5 TeV, taking particle physics research to a new frontier.

go

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Seriously

Quick funny story proving my nerdyness.

I own a company and I am at work and apparently I have a meeting on Sept 10th and have to be out of the office. This meeting escaped my mind totally and some how it wasn't on my planner. So anyways, I get a call from one of my employee's and he asks if I remember whats important about Sept 10th. I look in my planner and let rip how excited I am about the LHC being used for the first time. Employee decides not to interupt me until 10 minutes later and then tells me I have a meeting and that he doesn't know what the hell I was talking about.

Sigh..... LHC is in the planner but meeting is not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sylent Nyte

So can we use this as a Proton Cannon and shoot things with it? :blink:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1.618
So can we use this as a Proton Cannon and shoot things with it? :blink:

Yeah, you can shoot atoms with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
stevewinn

Is it safe, thats the main thing, because if it isnt were all in **** street, :wacko:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.