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pendora

Palin's daughter pregnant

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Neognosis
Trust me, I was being sarcastic. I'm still up in the air about who to vote for.

How is it up in the air for you? What are you basing your vote on? Do you have a philosophy that you think is right? I mean, two candidates, polor oppostite in policy. do you mean that you have waited your whole life to consider what your own political beliefs are?

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BiffSplitkins
How is it up in the air for you? What are you basing your vote on? Do you have a philosophy that you think is right? I mean, two candidates, polor oppostite in policy. do you mean that you have waited your whole life to consider what your own political beliefs are?

I know what my beliefs are... I just dislike both candidates overall.

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Lt_Ripley
How is it up in the air for you? What are you basing your vote on? Do you have a philosophy that you think is right? I mean, two candidates, polor oppostite in policy. do you mean that you have waited your whole life to consider what your own political beliefs are?

well they are have taxes in common. Obama wants to tax higher brackets more also admitting that to get the country back in shape isn't going to be easy. McCain is kinda saying he won't tax , but ...

McCain admits to pandering on taxes: ‘I have to be against tax increases, as you know.’»

hw.gifLast month, after incurring the wrath of hardline anti-tax conservatives for saying that tax increases weren’t “off the table” for fixing Social Security, he caved to his base and made “an updated version” of George H. W. Bush’s infamous “Read my lips, no new taxes” pledge. In Aspen yesterday, McCain admitted that he was in a box on Social Security and taxes, saying, “I have to be against tax increases, as you know“:

McCain has called for a bipartisan effort to fix Social Security and infuriated some conservatives by saying that everything, including increasing payroll taxes, could be on the table. He said today that “you know I’m opposed to tax increases” when Isaacson asked him about it. “I think I can convince people on the other side of the table that we do not need tax increases.”

When Isaacson said the proposal would have to be on the table to be negotiated off the table, McCain drew a smattering of laughter when he said “I have to be against tax increases, as you know.”

McCain is stuck in the “rhetorical trap” of conservative anti-tax fundamentalism, which, as Matthew Yglesias explains, is denial of policy reality based on having “spent the past 30 years trying to convince people that any hint of tax increase for any purpose is the purest evil.”

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/08/15/mccain...er-taxes-aspen/

flip flop.

Vote Summary

* McCain voted no on 6 tax cuts including the two big votes - final passage of the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts.

* McCain voted yes on 3 tax cuts including 2 which received near unanimous support in the Senate and were relatively non controversial.

* McCain was not present for an additional 3 tax votes, including 2 on the very important American Jobs Creation Act of 2004.

* McCain does not support permanent repeal of the estate tax, a major goal of the taxpayer movement.

* McCain has told reporters "off the record" that he would raise taxes if elected President

http://www.atr.org/content/html/mccainvotingrecord.html

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Stubbly_Dooright
HER DAUGHTER. Not HER. HER DAUGHTER. A parent could live their values, and impart those values fully to their kids, and the kid can still stray and make a mistake. You are making the most humorous and ignorant leap in judgement. Surely, you aren't ignorant enough to believe that the kids of people who live conservative values never get pregnant, are you? Yet, you continue to imply that somehow she does not live her proclaimed values because of a mistake her daughter made.

Now, partly because of people like you, they are going to force this kid to marry the father to appease the type of person who is ignorant of policy and votes based on some ridiculous fuzzy feel good emotion. .. In some twisted miscarriage of logic, this seems to be the right thing to do for some of you.

Calling her a hypocrite for not living her conservative values because her daughter is pregnant requires the most severe intellectual disconnect and a serious inability to create and analyze a logical sequence of reasoning.

I sure don't. Yet, you seem to have no issue with judging someone else for how a mistake a member of their family made. Hm, interesting.

You seem to be under the imaginative delusion that because Palin's daughter got pregnant, Sarah Palin therfore must have not taught her the correct values. That's just ignorant. Kids taught the most stringent conservative values still have premarital sex and occasionally end up pregnant. For your illogical train of thought to work, you have to assume that SP did not teach her kids any of her values, that she knew the daughter was having sex, and that she did not try to teach her better. This is just one ridiculous and baselesss assumption upon another.

YOU seem to make a judgement too quickly, and then ride with it. You are too quick to make a big leap into assuming that I thought she doesn't teach her children her values. Maybe you would consider thinking, that I feel she never followed up on her teaching her values.

You also have shown a lack of reading fully on what I write. I am fearful of pushing the two into marriage, cause I know that will damage them in the long run.

As for a child, who is a minor in a home of the parents, EXCUSE ME for thinking that a parent(s) cannot help but feel responsible for what their child does!!! If a child of mine stole a car, and they are a minor, does the police have no right to come to my door, asking me questions. There is the seperation of a child from a parent, but a parent stills gets the responsiblity! As a parent, I KNOW THIS AS A FACT! This is what I see Palin pushing, and I see her going against what she's pushing. Frankly, like I have said before, no one should pushing for any form of 'family values'. Then this wouldn't be an issue.

Oh by the way, noticed that these are my feelings! My opinion! Do you feel it's ok for you to insult my feelings and opinions? If you have a problem with my feelings and opinions, what are you trying to say?

Geez, I wish you would chill and stop insulting.

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Stubbly_Dooright
Trust me, I was being sarcastic. I'm still up in the air about who to vote for. It's like trying to choose the last 2 kids left for dodge ball team, you know the kids that nobody wants.

Oh, cool. Your post sounded so serious. Thanks for clarifying. :tu:

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MissMelsWell
But the VP doesn't do anything. They are the president of the senate and can vote to break a tie only. Other than that, they don't do much of anything at all.

WAY wrong... they do a LOT. They travel constantly on foreign diplomacy missions (isn't in Cheney in the Baltics or something right now?) They have to keep up with every little nuance of what's going on in the senate and house and all things going on in government. They advise council and commitee meetings, and much much more. They're hardly sitting around the White House Pool drinking Mai Tai's and listening to Jewel on the stereo. It's a WAY more than 40 hour a week job... way more.

What, is Mrs. Palin going to pack up her 4 month old downs syndrome affected baby and skip off to the middle east for 4 weeks on a diplomacy mission? No, she's not, she's going to skip off to the middle east and leave that poor baby without its mother for 4 weeks. That's not family values.

Edited by MissMelsWell

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Neognosis
If a child of mine stole a car, and they are a minor, does the police have no right to come to my door, asking me questions.

But the state doesn't arrest you and accuse you of failing to teach your kid not to steal cars, which is what you are doing when you make the asinine statement that Sarah Palin didn't live her conservative values because of something her kid did.

Because her kid did something she is agianst doesn't mean she doesn't push her values at home. You seem unable to comprehend this. She's in no way "gone against what she is pushing" because her kid made a mistake.

I'm sorry you feel insulted by my posts. But your feelings are illogical and do not make any sense when held up to objective analysis.

If you have a problem with my feelings and opinions, what are you trying to say?
I'm trying to say that the statements you are making are absolutely nonsensical and a symptom of a bigger problem our nation has had for a long time.

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Neognosis
WAY wrong... they do a LOT.

They serve as a figurehead with NO EXECUTIVE POWERS.

What, is Mrs. Palin going to pack up her 4 month old downs syndrome affected baby and skip off to the middle east for 4 weeks on a diplomacy mission? No, she's not, she's going to skip off to the middle east and leave that poor baby without its mother for 4 weeks. That's not family values.

Would you ask that if she were a man? Are you assuming that she would not have a full staff of qualified child care experts, perhaps one who specializes in Down's Syndrome? Who are you to make a judgement on how someone should or might raise their kids? Maybe her husband would stay home with the kids. Or is a man somehow unable to care for the children?

This is insulting and irrelevant.

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IamsSon
WAY wrong... they do a LOT. They travel constantly on foreign diplomacy missions (isn't in Cheney in the Baltics or something right now?) They have to keep up with every little nuance of what's going on in the senate and house and all things going on in government. They advise council and commitee meetings, and much much more. They're hardly sitting around the White House Pool drinking Mai Tai's and listening to Jewel on the stereo. It's a WAY more than 40 hour a week job... way more.

What, is Mrs. Palin going to pack up her 4 month old downs syndrome affected baby and skip off to the middle east for 4 weeks on a diplomacy mission? No, she's not, she's going to skip off to the middle east and leave that poor baby without its mother for 4 weeks. That's not family values.

Frankly, the VP job sounds a lot less stressful and dangerous than being a soldier, and yet there is a constant push to allow women into more and more dangerous and demanding military specialties. So why is it OK for Mom to be a Military Police, escorting convoys through some of the most dangerous battlefields, but somehow being VP is too hard? Especially since the woman we are currently talking about has already proven she can be a mom and an executive.

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Sherapy
HER DAUGHTER. Not HER. HER DAUGHTER. A parent could live their values, and impart those values fully to their kids, and the kid can still stray and make a mistake. You are making the most humorous and ignorant leap in judgement. Surely, you aren't ignorant enough to believe that the kids of people who live conservative values never get pregnant, are you? Yet, you continue to imply that somehow she does not live her proclaimed values because of a mistake her daughter made.

Now, partly because of people like you, they are going to force this kid to marry the father to appease the type of person who is ignorant of policy and votes based on some ridiculous fuzzy feel good emotion. .. In some twisted miscarriage of logic, this seems to be the right thing to do for some of you.

Calling her a hypocrite for not living her conservative values because her daughter is pregnant requires the most severe intellectual disconnect and a serious inability to create and analyze a logical sequence of reasoning.

I sure don't. Yet, you seem to have no issue with judging someone else for how a mistake a member of their family made. Hm, interesting.

You seem to be under the imaginative delusion that because Palin's daughter got pregnant, Sarah Palin therfore must have not taught her the correct values. That's just ignorant. Kids taught the most stringent conservative values still have premarital sex and occasionally end up pregnant. For your illogical train of thought to work, you have to assume that SP did not teach her kids any of her values, that she knew the daughter was having sex, and that she did not try to teach her better. This is just one ridiculous and baselesss assumption upon another.

more than likely IMO it isnt that she didnt teach values but the ones she did teach did not serve her daughter when they were needed the most..

this would call into question her ability to assess the situation, a hormonal young person and be sure they were prepared to prevent a pregnacy....through education or birth control or having an adult to discuss this with.. ...it does leave me with concerns about her ability to be soluiton oriented and effective....

If we look at the Obama's they represent this for me as a family and as leaders both him and his wife.......and they do not call running for the pres. a walk in the park.. they have been very candid about their concerns are for their kids first and foremost... and they campain with this in mind....

a 17 year old is young to be a parent granted there are many but they themselves IMO have not accrued enough life experince or maturity or even know who they are yet to be able to raise a child.....I would think that Pallin would be 110 percent available to help her daughter grow up real fast and really have no reason to think she won't be..........

In the abstinece philososphy little other alternatives are available..... many dont take into account the variables that come into play with teenagers.....I do think I have read she is anti sex education............

in anything including paretiing you have to look at the situation for what it is not what you think it should be...I ma not so sure she can do this....

your perosonal life gives some indication of how you handle things how you adapt, i have no misconceptions that anyones life is without problems on occassion, what I ma interested in is how you deal with it...

they are gonna have the 17 year old get married....hmmm

Edited by Tangerine Sheri

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MissMelsWell
But the VP doesn't do anything. They are the president of the senate and can vote to break a tie only. Other than that, they don't do much of anything at all.

But that's irrelevant anyway. Please, please, please vote for a person based on their record and policies. Not if you think they might be too busy with family. That's just nonsense. Even if McCain dies and Palin becomes president, I'm relatively certain she can hire help that would take much better care of her kids than any working mother ever could. This is just ridiculous and insulting on so many levels that anyone would consider a person's family situation in light of whether or not they should be elected to office. It's sexist (maybe when she's VP the husband can take a sabaticle and take care of the kids....but agian, IRRELEVANT), it's just silly (wealthy politicians can pay people to take care of their kids....maybe having a full time staff and secret service would have the kids better taken care of than if she was working in corporate America...) it's insulting to our national intelligence that we are willing to ignore policies and vote for who has the smallest or healthiest family. come on people....

And you just had a baby Neo, am I correct? Would your wife leave your newborn son with caregivers while she galavanted around the world going to fancy receptions and meeting with heads of state on important diplomacy issues?

I'm guessing she would not. In fact, it would probably break her heart to more or less abandon them for 4 years.

I'm speaking to the hypocracy of her platform. She's all about family values, she says it herself... where's the value in abandoning your very young kids for extended period of time? I'm hardly basing my vote on that fact alone, that's nonsensical. But it is a manifestation of the duplicity and hypocracy we could expect in other areas too.

Like I said, I'm not hip on her policies at all. I don't like her stance on a lot of things, I think her to be as inexperienced as McCain is wishy-washy. I was never going to vote for McCain. All politicians are liars, no doubt that Obama and Biden are as well. Since we know they're all liars, we have to resort to their actions and the subtleties of what they say and do. Yes, that IS what it's come to. Like it or not.

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Stubbly_Dooright

But the state doesn't arrest you and accuse you of failing to teach your kid not to steal cars, which is what you are doing when you make the asinine statement that Sarah Palin didn't live her conservative values because of something her kid did.
I didn't say they would come to my door to arrest me. You are making that statement. I didn't say anything about being arrested as a parent. I'm talking about the legality of the police coming to me as the parent of a minor.

Because her kid did something she is agianst doesn't mean she doesn't push her values at home. You seem unable to comprehend this. She's in no way "gone against what she is pushing" because her kid made a mistake.
You seem to think that is what I am saying. Again, you are full of leaps about me, and I think you are just assuming I am saying what you think I'm saying.

I'm sorry you feel insulted by my posts. But your feelings are illogical and do not make any sense when held up to objective analysis. I'm trying to say that the statements you are making are absolutely nonsensical and a symptom of a bigger problem our nation has had for a long time.
Personally, I don't think you are sorry at all, judging by the way you react in your posts. I don't care about that anyways. Whether you put down my feelings or not, they are still my feelings, and not something I go by all the time in my actions. They are my feelings. The fact you overall insulted them, not basis this as your opinion on my feelings, speaks to me how you are when you talk, without thinking about how you come across. Plus, you come to a big leap of logic assuming I live fully on my feelings. If you cannot understand my feelings fully, maybe you are not reading deeply into what I am saying. There are posts of mine to you, you seem to ignore, and come to a conclusion too quickly of the few you quote.

And besides, this thread is titled "Palin's daughter pregnant". If you have no wish to discuss the irrelevancy of it, you should have not come into this thread in the first place. Start your own thread, or go into a thread that discusses Palin's goals and policies, and you wouldn't have to worry about trying to find it here. What does that say about your logic?

Frankly, the VP job sounds a lot less stressful and dangerous than being a soldier, and yet there is a constant push to allow women into more and more dangerous and demanding military specialties. So why is it OK for Mom to be a Military Police, escorting convoys through some of the most dangerous battlefields, but somehow being VP is too hard? Especially since the woman we are currently talking about has already proven she can be a mom and an executive.

That is true in some sense, as a military wife who has observed a lot.

more than likely IMO it isnt that she didnt teach values but the ones she did teach did not serve her daughter when they were needed the most..

this would call into question her ability to assess the situation, a hormonal young person and be sure they were prepared to prevent a pregnacy....through education or birth control or having an adult to discuss this with.. ...i ownder how mcuih she is gone and i wonder what role the dad palys we hear little to nothing about him.....

a 17 year old is way too young to be a parent granted there are many but they themselves have not accrued enough life experince or maturity or even know who they are yet to be able to raise a child.....I would think that Pallin would be 110 percent available to help her daughter grow up real fast and really have no reason to think she won't be..........

In the abstinece philososphy little other alternatives are available..... many dont take into account the variables that come into play with teenagers.....I do think I have read she is anti sex education............

in anything including paretniing you have to look at the situation for what it is not what you think it should be...

BINGO!!!!

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Neognosis
more than likely IMO it isnt that she didnt teach values but the ones she did teach did not serve her daughter when they were needed the most..

this would call into question her ability to assess the situation, a hormonal young person and be sure they were prepared to prevent a pregnacy....through education or birth control or having an adult to discuss this with.. ...i ownder how mcuih she is gone and i wonder what role the dad palys we hear little to nothing about him.....

Ok, NOW you might be on to something. IF she taught her kids the values she espouses....abstinance and no acess to birth controll. But parents who teach their kids how to use birth controll and how to realistically adress their desires also sometimes end up with pregnant children.

All the rest of the above quote is irrelevant speculation, though.

And you just had a baby Neo, am I correct? Would your wife leave your newborn son with caregivers while she galavanted around the world going to fancy receptions and meeting with heads of state on important diplomacy issues?

If my wife had the ability to influence this country, and secure our financial future, I would more than encourage her to do so and leave the baby with me. As it is, we are discussing wether I won't return to work after her maternity leave is up. And if my wife were in the position to be Vice President of the United States, that pretty much gurentees our child's financial security and opens up untold doors of opportunity to him. So yea, I would watch the kid while she built our families future and the future of the country. And we would tell people like you to mind your own business and vote or dont' vote for her based on her policy, not some nonsesnsical speculation about our personal lives.

In fact, it would probably break her heart to more or less abandon them for 4 years.

I'm reasonably certain that the vice president gets to come home sometimes.

Since we know they're all liars, we have to resort to their actions and the subtleties of what they say and do. Yes, that IS what it's come to. Like it or not.

Like it or not? that's the way it SHOULD BE. You should always judge a politician based on what they have done in the past and what their platform is. Completely ignor what they say. You're going to read in to subtleties of what they say? That's crazy.

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Stubbly_Dooright
I'm speaking to the hypocracy of her platform. She's all about family values, she says it herself... where's the value in abandoning your very young kids for extended period of time? I'm hardly basing my vote on that fact alone, that's nonsensical. But it is a manifestation of the duplicity and hypocracy we could expect in other areas too.

And I'll say it again for this post!

BINGO!!!

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Incorrigible1

A lot of sanctimonious horse-hockey being spewed here.

Palin, a working mother, and somehow that's a bad thing?

Edited by Incorrigible1

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Neognosis

Apparently only men can have jobs if there are children in the family, and apparently men are incapable of raising children.

You've come a long way, baby.

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Mr  Honeybadger

Saying that a woman cannot be a loving mother to her children and also have a very important job or career is a slap in the face to the progressive woman's liberation movement.

Liberal women should applaud Sarah. Or do they not simply because she isn't a Liberal herself ?

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Stubbly_Dooright
A lot of sanctimonious horse-hockey being spewed here.

Palin, a working mother, and somehow that's a bad thing?

How is posts here are condemning her for that? I'm not, and I'm also for that.

Then again, wouldn't the 'conservative family values' be against that?

If it does, wouldn't Palin be a contradiction to what she believes and says she is?

Frankly, if she does it, I would be very excited for her.

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Stubbly_Dooright
Saying that a woman cannot be a loving mother to her children and also have a very important job or career is a slap in the face to the progressive woman's liberation movement.

Liberal women should applaud Sarah. Or do they not simply because she isn't a Liberal herself ?

I wonder if a seperate thread should be started on this, considering this is not the topic the op started.

I am Liberal, and I do applaud her. I am also confused, because she is not a Liberal, but a conservative. Maybe I'm wrong, but do not conservatives push for women marrying and staying at home?

I could be wrong, I just want to know based from what I have been observing.

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Neognosis
Maybe I'm wrong, but do not conservatives push for women marrying and staying at home?

I could be wrong, I just want to know based from what I have been observing.

Yes, you are wrong and about 20 years behind what the conservative platform is. Conservative men realized long ago that they can not continue to win elections without women. There is nothing any longer in the conservative platform about women staying home after they are married.

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Stubbly_Dooright
Yes, you are wrong and about 20 years behind what the conservative platform is. Conservative men realized long ago that they can not continue to win elections without women. There is nothing any longer in the conservative platform about women staying home after they are married.

Ok, I have asked the question, and you answered it. Now, where is your source? Not that I am disagreeing with you, I just want to see how you come by it, since you made a statement of it.

Plus, anyone else? What do you think about my question?

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Neognosis

Go to the republican parties homepage and look at their platform. There is nothing in there about women staying home.

Here's a PDF: http://www.gopplatform2008.com/2008Platform.pdf

I'm sure you can find one for the conservative platform as well.

Edited by Neognosis

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Sherapy
Saying that a woman cannot be a loving mother to her children and also have a very important job or career is a slap in the face to the progressive woman's liberation movement.

Liberal women should applaud Sarah. Or do they not simply because she isn't a Liberal herself ?

you are inferring this this has not been said no one has said a thing about her ability to be a loving mother....

I am not gonna suspend critical evaluation of her ability to be a VP, nor am I gonna just gloss over who is she as she represents us and our standards as a people, for me and perhaps for others this is different the mother in her speaks to me and that you are walking your talk and candid about how you are doing this .. until then i am listening......... i am not heaing anything about how she is gonna do all this...a downs syndrome baby is serious IMO ....... it seems obvious she must of wanted kids ...somehow the Mccain campaign has translated the hilary supporters into any ole woman will do .....

perhaps the dad is very proactive but we just dont know.....

She still has to be qualified for the job, I am not so sure alot of thought was put into this, I read McCain met her once....

Edited by Tangerine Sheri

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Stubbly_Dooright

From what I understand, conservatives believe in the Christian religion, which I have found to have a very clear role of women in the home.

Even if conservative home pages don't talk about women staying at home, I would think it's still pretty contradictory to what conservatives have saying about what they are.

Again, I asked the question, about the overall values of the conservative.

Like I searched in conservative home pages, finding anything in the roles of women in politics, and nothing is about women period.

Go to the republican parties homepage and look at their platform. There is nothing in there about women staying home.

Here's a PDF: http://www.gopplatform2008.com/2008Platform.pdf

I'm sure you can find one for the conservative platform as well.

But I can't, and I find that interesting. What pages did you use to come by your previous statement? The you linked, just seems to talk about the overall rights of women, and women included in men, like in the military.

So, what is a conservative these days? Should they be considered to be called conservatives still?

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Incorrigible1
From what I understand, conservatives believe in the Christian religion, which I have found to have a very clear role of women in the home.

I'm quite conservative and not a Christian. You paint with very broad strokes. So are all liberals devil worshippers. No, of course not.

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