Order out of chaos

[tipsy_munchkin]

I wish to hear your thoughts on a pattern i have noticed between religion, mythology and even the most crazy on conspiracy theories. I believe we as a species had a need to see order within chaos. In a world of much random cause and effect which is difficult to get our heads around we seek sleeker more simple explanations. We are also extremely adept at picking out patterns, and linking together pieces of information. These traits I am sure have and do serve us well as we evolve but they appear to have intresting side effects. We seek patterns and solutions where we have none as yet. We seek to fit all the chaos and randomless of life into neat little packages.

From the beginning we sought to explain the world around us, the rise of the sun, the change of the seasons. Over time many of these basic wonderings evolved into religion and myth. On the most basic level we see this is a way of explaining the unknown. To me it is also indicative of the need to have a neat and formed explanation. Some part of us needs to see a pattern, form an answer, make the unknown clear. It is from this aspect i see conspiracy theories as also linked.

Even with our wealth of scientific knowledge about the world many choose to reject it as they see gaps, unknowns or simply that they see another pattern entirely. For many the in completeness of that knowledge is not enough to satisfy. From there they seek a more unified and all encompassing answer. One that fills all the holes. For some this is religion, be it god or new age philosophy. For others it is grand conspiracies, patterns spotted in both ancient and modern life linked together to make a unified and tidy package.

Many experiences are still not fully understood and defined in science although we have coem a long way. For this point i would draw your attention to a previous thread

about the brain and god

There is much posted here pertaining to the physical effects which can lead to intense or divine experiences. Without the knowledge of the cause of these people often attribute it to an existing or new theology.

It is often seen as proof of an order or pattern to life beyond what is considered in science.

Many studies have shown that different experiences and halluctinations can be casue by effecting various parts of the brain. The culture in which the person affected lives often effects the kind of experience that results from ET to GOD. And as with early man an explanation is sought. The experience is not accepted as standing alone it is usually attributed to one of these key elements, mythology, religion, conspiracy and aliens. It is rare when someone sees it as soemthing standing alone, an anomoly to be researched and possibly one they will never have a full answer too. Our need for a conclusive pattern and belief is so strong that once an answer is found no amount of evidence to the contrary is often accepted and we have the 'i know the truth' scenario.

Clearly cases where something has been experienced are the strongest but many who have not had some divine or bizarre event occur will hold fast to a belief, an explanation that makes everything 'fit.' These explanations vary drasticly between cultures and lifestyles the one thing i see in common across the board is that they take the chaotic world we live in and give it order. The diversity of ideas that claim to answer all wether it be reptilians new age philosophy, pixies or God makes it hard to believe that any one is the ultimate truth and that all our part of us filling in the gaps and removing the element of chaos and unknown from our lives.

Perhaps this basic drive is one of the reasons we have been so succesful and seek always to find knowledge and answers. Perhaps the need to find a pattern and have it all make sense is what makes us, as humans, what we are.

I hope my ramble has sparked a few thoughts out there, and any firther information and discussion on how the brain works, on the evolution of myth, religion, or theories on the pshycology of CT's is welcomed.

NOTE; This is meant in no way to belittle anyones belief systemns or religion and is not an attack on faith. For all i know there is indeed a greater power out there I simply am not certain anyone knows all the answers.

EDIT: if a mod drops in can you edit the typo in the title please. I type fast look after bad habit *blush*

Edited September 3, 2008 by Tiggs
* Dropped in, fixed Typo *

[John from Lowell]

I hope we can have a productive discussion on this subject.

As I see it the logical mind needs a context for its reality perspective. Those who understand how that logical mind works will feed it the the kind of information it wants to receive and at the same time promote an agenda, that is shall we say, self serving.

The intuitive, imaginative, and creative mind is hard at work finding it place in the thoughts of our population. It wants to harmonize with its logical counterpart but that depends on the free will choices from the conscious intent found in each person.

For me the question becomes, can we have a high comfort level with unseen realiries that are beyond the scope of human understanding? If not then I see no way to acquire true self empowerment. That chicken and egg discussion about what came first is intended to lock a person into restricted lines of thinking.

Once you can see the human as a multi-dimensonal being of energy with vast knowledge and power, the question becomes, how much of it can be realized from our human expression?

I would say, not as much as our logical mind would like. Yet that logical mind can be trained to expand its comfort level and embrace the unknown masterfully. As I see it, that is.

John

[tipsy_munchkin]

All these concepts are pure speculation though. this very need to think there is a greater deeper level that we havent yet grasped could easily be simply an illusion of our minds. A fulfillment of that need to find a completeness and order.

No matter what theory is put forth it cannot currently be tested, proven. I see no way to distinguish one philosophy from another in terms of truth.

In answer to the first part i would say the context we see the world is based on our senses and our brains interpretation of that information. I think we have a very high confort level with believing in an unsees reality beyond what is classed as known science. If we didnt want on some level to believe such things this forum would be dead. Wether it be spiritual or aliens or even bigfoot we thrive on believing in things that are not tangible or provable. As i said before i think personally its part of a basic drive to explain, understand and fit the universe into a bundle we can manage within our minds. Though i think you get this and are alluding to the fact that perhaps whatever deeper truth there is we are unable to grasp it. I agree this is possible, but there is something more simple here. I believe myself that life is utterly chaotic, random events all bouncin goff each other with no real fixed purpose or direction. It is this concept i feel many seem to wish to shy away from. Where there are gaps, or patterns, no matter how randomly formed these are filled or linked together in a way that is ordered in our minds.

Perhaps some great spiritual awakening is out there but all too often something is seen and believed with no evidence but simply becasue it feels right to an individual. Not all these thigns can be true or correct surely? Yet to the individual it is undoubted truth.

[20SEP2008]

Just a remark, there is no such thing as random on our scale of the atomic/subatomic scale.

No randomness whatsoever. There is quite a bit in the Quantum Area but you should do research on that on your own time.

Wouldn't you think that the generally accepted idea of there being a greater "whatever" that is unattainable is simply a survival mechanism for humans to go on through the harshness and chaos of life and still think that there is something out there waiting for them?

If there would not be such idealism then wouldn't humanity be more depressed with the actuality of things as they are?

Wouldn't that remove the spark plug out of the engine we call Mankind?

Just a thought.

Edited September 3, 2008 by llynx

[tipsy_munchkin]

Just a remark, there is no such thing as random on our scale of the atomic/subatomic scale.

No randomness whatsoever. There is quite a bit in the Quantum Area but you should do research on that on your own time.

Wouldn't you think that the generally accepted idea of there being a greater "whatever" that is unattainable is simply a survival mechanism for humans to go on through the harshness and chaos of life and still think that there is something out there waiting for them?

If there would not be such idealism then wouldn't humanity be more depressed with the actuality of things as they are?

Wouldn't that remove the spark plug out of the engine we call Mankind?

Just a thought.

i was thinking of random more as, for example people seeing a conspiracy theory based on the usual random links and symbols being 'everywhere' whereas there is no real cohesion to these things. It is merely percieved order of random coincidences and events. It was never a matter of the atomic/subatomic level of life.

This is what i'm getting at but making a broader event than just the greater 'whatever' though that applies to the religion side. A survival mechanism does fit nicely but its not just a matter of believeing in something greater. Its the tendancy of some to want to fill the gaps in and have that security. to feel that they have the answers already.

I agree it is a force that is clearly extremely beneficial to us as a species. Perhaps it is a combination of the part of our mind that evolved to problem solve. This was the driving force behind inventing tools and leading finally to technology. Perhaps though this also causes us to seek answers in other areas and we could not have the one ability without doing the other. Once there was the conciousness to ask how also there was the thought why?

[Godsnmbr1]

i was thinking of random more as, for example people seeing a conspiracy theory based on the usual random links and symbols being 'everywhere' whereas there is no real cohesion to these things. It is merely percieved order of random coincidences and events. It was never a matter of the atomic/subatomic level of life.

This is what i'm getting at but making a broader event than just the greater 'whatever' though that applies to the religion side. A survival mechanism does fit nicely but its not just a matter of believeing in something greater. Its the tendancy of some to want to fill the gaps in and have that security. to feel that they have the answers already.

I agree it is a force that is clearly extremely beneficial to us as a species. Perhaps it is a combination of the part of our mind that evolved to problem solve. This was the driving force behind inventing tools and leading finally to technology. Perhaps though this also causes us to seek answers in other areas and we could not have the one ability without doing the other. Once there was the conciousness to ask how also there was the thought why?

When you look at the universe, you see chaos. When I look at the universe, I see one magnificent pattern. We might not always have the comprehension to see that pattern but that doesn't mean it isn't there. The quantum level is a perfect example. Someone before said that it exemplified chaos but it's always seemed to me like a type of order that we just can't comprehend.

You say that people have always tried to make sense of the unknown, like with our ancestors looking at the sun and the moon and turning them into gods, but even if we know today that the pattern they created then was wrong we can still see that there really IS a pattern to our solar system, just like there are patterns throughout nature.

Take weather for example. To a single person anywhere on the face of the planet, weather looks like pure chaos. Hotter in the summer, colder in the winter--that would be the only thing a person could say for sure about the weather due to all of its seemingly chaotic functions. But weather isn't chaotic. It just seems that way from a single perspective. If you move back and look at the planet as a whole you can see that there really is a pattern there. We just can't see it from our perspective.

That's all chaos is, I think. A lack of perspective.