Oldest civilization?

[thefinalfrontier]

Oldest Civilization may be in Antarctica

by Vladimir Averianov

Lots of surprises may be hidden under the Antarctic ice

and are waiting to be discovered by humans

The existence of the civilization in Antarctica started drawing attention of professional historians after the World War II. The hypothesis can be proven by medieval maps and the research of Western paleogeologists and glaciologists.

In January 1820 the lieutenant of the Russian Imperial Fleet Mikhail Lazarev discovered a new continent. At the beginning of the 20th century famous Russian Brockhaus and Efron encyclopedic dictionary contained an article, according to which the continent was insufficiently and that there were no flora and fauna. Besides, the author mentioned the variety of seaweeds and sea animals that inhabited the Antarctic waters.

About twenty years later the head of the Istanbul National Museum Halil Edhem found an old map while revising the library of Byzantine emperors in the old sultans palace. The author of the map depicted the Western coast of Africa, the Southern coast of South America and the Northern coast of Antarctica. Halil was astonished. The ice edge of the Queen Maud Land south of 70th parallel was free of ice. The author mapped a mountain chain at this point. The name of the cartographer was well known to Edhem. It was the admiral of Ottoman Empire Fleet Piri Reis, who lived in the first half of the 16th century. In 1949 the joint British-Swedish expedition conducted a thorough seismic exploration of the southernmost continent through the thick ice. The results coincided with the map of Reis. However, it was a mystery how the map data were to agree with the level of science of 1513.

LINK

http://www.ufodigest.com/antarctica.html

[PersonFromPorlock]

Well, the Piri Reis chart has been pretty well exploded. An ancient civilization in Antarctica featured in HP Lovecraft's "At the Mountains of Madness" and the Nazis tried to set up a flying saucer base there during WW2 but Cthultu got 'em.

[group67]

wow thats amazing, ive heard a few theories about prior civilisations with technical knowledge but that there seems like proof

[WeasLeyGurL]

Wow, I never knew that. I've always thought the Chaldeans, Babylonians are the first

[Satsu]

yeah im sure there are many things have not discovered yet. but, r u really sure it will be the oldest?

[Essan]

The existence of the civilization in Antarctica started drawing attention of professional historians after the World War II. The hypothesis can be proven by medieval maps and the research of Western paleogeologists and glaciologists.

The hypothesis can be well and truely disproven by actually looking at those medieval maps and by the research of western paleogeologists and glaciologists

[Guest]

In order for Antartica to be a reasonable candidate for the location of a lost civilisation you would have to account for why they chose one of the most inhospitable places on earth ? how they lived for half the year without sunlight ?

I think if you read around the subject you will find the hypothesis went with an explanation for earth crust slippage. The problem with that is geologists can find no evidence in the magnetic record for such a crustal shift. If I am wrong on this one point me to the evidence.

I think it is possible that the Antartic coast may have been mapped in the ancient past - but this is a very different thing from it been the seat of an Ancient civilisation. A more reasonable position to take would be that an ancient civilisation mapped the coast in a interglacial period when the coast was ice free, and this map survived. Even this requires belief in a thriving human civilisation before the last Ice age, which I find a little difficult to accept.

Overall I think that of all the claims for ancient civilisations, the Antartic idea is the weakest one of the lot.

Br Cornelius

[Teej]

Wikipedia has a pretty cool picture lining up the coast drawn on the map with the eastern coast of South America (flip South America horizontally-the link shows what I mean). The contours seem to map up almost perfectly. Considering the technology and shaky navigational skills of the time, I could see a navigator getting the coast confused and mapping South America on its side.

I think all possibilities must be considered before making the leap that there was an ancient civilization in Antarctica, particularly when there's no archaeological evidence to suggest humans had been there. Granted archaeological digs probably aren't the most common activity on the continent, but until we do find something (if ever), speculation about ancient civilizations in Antarctica will have to remain fantasy.

[OldTimeRadio]

I am by no means opposed to the idea of an ancient Antarctic civilization long ago buried underneath the ice-packs.

The problem is that to date the evidence has not been very good.

It is, in fact, very nearly non-existent.

P. S. And even if such a civilization did exist, wouldn't its remains have long-since been crushed to utter-unrecognizeability by the tremendous weight of the ice?

[Mattshark]

There are many super serious problems with this idea, like incredible coldness, inability to grow food, inability to access material, inability to access much food, inability to get there. Antarctica has been frozen through out human existence, the ice cap has been at its current extension for 6 million years. We haven't even been around for a million.

Seriously silly idea. Some people need to learn some critical thinking skills.

[darkbreed]

Speaking of Antarctica, anyone know what these structures are, and what this "bottomless pit" is?

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&...mp;t=h&z=15

You can zoom closer to look at the structures, if you try to zoom more out it will say"We are sorry but we dont have imagery at this zoom level for this region" a bit odd. Gotta be very close to find these structures and they are not labeled.

The structures are located to the right on the image located at the edge of the huge cliffs / cavern system / whatever that is.

If you go a bit further to the right you'll find these as well:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&...019312&z=16

And a bit further down in between both of the above two mentioned places you got this:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&...009656&z=17

-EA

[Qoais]

Whatever these are, they are one mile East of the South African Antarctic Research Base; there is another row, not sticking out so far from the ice, a half a mile from the base, to the left and a bit up from these ones. They look like - well - bridges.

Edited September 14, 2008 by Qoais

[Qoais]

South Africans celebrate 45 years on the ice

For most South Africans, the winter solstice on 21 June passes practically unnoticed as the shortest period of daylight during the year. For nine South Africans based in Antarctica, the date has enormous significance. In celebration of the 45th anniversary of South Africa's presence on the frozen continent and the work that continues today, the Department of Science and Technology has declared June 2006 to be Antarctica Month.

South Africa's connection with the southern-most continent actually dates back to early Cretaceous times, some 115 million years ago, when the land masses which today make up Africa and Antarctica formed the Gondwana supercontinent. Continental drift eventually resulted in Gondwanaland breaking up to form the pieces of the global jigsaw puzzle seen on today's maps. This has lead to an ironic situation where South Africa's current Antarctic base (SANAE IV) is perched atop a gigantic outcrop of Karoo Dolerite, almost 5 000 kilometres from home!

The South African base in Antarctica.

In the years prior to the First World War, South Africa was a staging post for some of the voyages made during the heroic era of Antarctic exploration, but our country's direct involvement began when meteorologist J J la Grange participated in the first successful Trans-Antarctic Expedition (1955 - 58). Truly an Antarctic pioneer, Hannes la Grange went on to lead the first South African National Antarctic Expedition (SANAE), which established a permanent South African presence on the continent in 1960.

The SANAE 1 team took over "Norway Station" in Dronning Maudland (Queen Maud Land) after the Norwegian Antarctic Expedition had vacated it. A new base (SANAE I) was constructed in 1962, with SANAE" being completed in 1971 and SANAE III in 1979. This base continued in use until the end of 1994, by which time the construction of SANAE IV had commenced. Unlike the first three bases which had been located on the Fimbulisen Ice Shelf, SANAE IV is located some 200 kilometres inland on the continent itself, and represents an entirely new design, standing above the surface on a nunatak, or rocky hillock, known as Vesleskarvet. The base was commissioned in 1997, with SANAE 36 being the first team to over-winter there.

South Africa has the distinction of being one of the 12 original signatories to the Antarctic Treaty adopted in 1959, as well as being a founder member of the Scientific Committee on Antarctic Research (SCAR). In accordance with the treaty, all military activities on the continent are prohibited, scientific investigation and co-operation is 'encouraged and territorial daims are placed on hold indefinitely. The Protocol on Environmental Protection has established Antarctica as a "natural reserve devoted to peace and science" and all activities on the continent are subject to strict environmental management.

South Africa's Antarctic research focuses on five main themes covering the geosciences, physical sciences, life sciences, the impact of the human presence in Antarctica and the history, sociology and politics of our long term presence in the region. The Department of Science and Technology co-ordinates, evaluates and funds the research projects. SANAE IV offers a well-resourced facility for the observation of various natural phenomena occurring in the cosmos, in the atmosphere or the electromagnetic field surrounding the earth, as well as in the crust of the earth itself. Auroras, solar winds and the ozone layer are some of the subjects of this research - with direct relevance to the navigation and communication systems upon which we have become so dependant. Geological investigations help to unravel the evolution of Gondwanaland, while meteorological and oceanographic observations provide clues to the process of _obal climate change. These are just some of the ways in which Antarctica offers a window on the past, present and future of our world.

Some facts about Antarctica:

It is the fifth largest continent on earth but has no permanent population.

Around 80 % of the world's fresh water lies frozen in the ice sheet covering the continent. Were it to melt, global sea levels would rise by about 75 metres.

It is the continent with the highest average altitude above sea level: 2 500m.

Average winter temperatures are around -40°C, although the coldest temperature ever recorded was -89°C at Vostok Base.

Antarctica is technically speaking a desert, having very little precipitation, even in the form of snowfall. The continent also has the world's lowest average humidity.

Static electricity poses a major hazard as far as sensitive electronic equipment is concerned.

Appropriately enough considering its name, there are no polar bears in Antartica (arktos being the Greek for bear)

There are no longer any sledge dogs on the continent. All dogs were withdrawn as an environmental safeguard in the early 1990s.

At consultative meetings of the Antarctic Treaty members, all decisions are made by consensus and not by vote.

[Qoais]

Perhaps those "bridge" looking things are some type of equipment for the research.

[darkbreed]

Thanks for the in-depth information, that pretty much solved the question about what those structures are =)

Got any information on the specific place they are located, or photos from the area (thinking about that enormous cliff , "black pit" thing) ?

And I was zooming closer to those other things that you posted a photo of there, and it kinda looks like trucks or some type of vehicles? They got tracks behind them etc as well.

Oh and holy bugger, -89C that's pretty cold indeed. I've been in temperatures down to around -40C myself and it's certainly not pleasant =)

Cheers,

-EA

[Qoais]

I'm sure you realize Darkbreed, that Google "covers up" what certain parties don't want made public. I'm not sure that's a black hole. Altough for a Google cover-up, it's pretty sophisticated. They usually just use squares of a different color, and you can't zoom in. Yes, I'm sure those were tire tracks leading to those things, whatever they are. Once - just once - I experienced -90F and that was blinkin cold.

Around the black hole, it looks like the ice has melted somewhat and rocks are showing through. Near the (ha ha) SOUTHERN end of the black hole, appears to be something that looks like fence posts, with something fairly thick strung between them. What intrugues me, is that the google shots I'm getting, seem to be in the morning, as there is a "glare" on the eastern side of rises, and yet these "fence posts" don't seem to be casting a shadow.

[Qoais]

[Qoais]

Here is a shot from a different angle which may explain the "dark hole" - perhaps shadowing. The base is on a very high cliff.

[darkbreed]

Ah thanks for the last photo that seems like a good explanation. I did try to light up the photos with adobe photoshop to see if I could find anything "hidden in the dark" so to speak but it was of no use. And btw, the shadows on these "fenceposts" are clearly visible too, and it seems they are tall poles as the shadow is very long and T-shaped - I think you actually may misinterpret the shadow itself as part of the objects?

It seems from the photos that the sun was low when they were taken considering the shadows of the objects in the area and this might explain this strange "dark hole" though I still find it a bit odd that it's so completely black and show no details while the other parts are very clear and snow and ice in general is very reflective.

EDIT: I notice the last photo you posted got the sun coming from the complete opposite direction, too bad that was not the case when the google image was taken =)

-EA

[thefinalfrontier]

There are many super serious problems with this idea, like incredible coldness, inability to grow food, inability to access material, inability to access much food, inability to get there. Antarctica has been frozen through out human existence, the ice cap has been at its current extension for 6 million years. We haven't even been around for a million.

Seriously silly idea. Some people need to learn some critical thinking skills.

An older civilization certianly had the critical thinking skills as you can see that in the map, The article also therorizes that antarctica was a warmer place at that time, Perhaps we need to do some more research to see if it was in fact a warmer place in that time period,

PS, I posted this thread because I found it interesting, Thanks DB for you pics,

[Mr Supertypo]

An older civilization certianly had the critical thinking skills as you can see that in the map, The article also therorizes that antarctica was a warmer place at that time, Perhaps we need to do some more research to see if it was in fact a warmer place in that time period,

PS, I posted this thread because I found it interesting, Thanks DB for you pics,

yes it was warmer once, but not during the exsistence of humanity.

[darkbreed]

Lux:

Is that a proven fact or a theory?

Not very familiar with this myself so if you could give me some information on how this has been determined that would be (n)ice. That goes for both the antarctic area being covered by ice and cold all that time, as well as the existence of humanity.

Also, considering the Earth is wobbling, is it not possible that at some time the poles were in different positions than they are now geographically speaking?

Thanks and regards,

-EA

[Mr Supertypo]

Lux:

Is that a proven fact or a theory?

Not very familiar with this myself so if you could give me some information on how this has been determined that would be (n)ice. That goes for both the antarctic area being covered by ice and cold all that time, as well as the existence of humanity.

Also, considering the Earth is wobbling, is it not possible that at some time the poles were in different positions than they are now geographically speaking?

Thanks and regards,

-EA

it's proven, the antarctic slowly moved to the position it has to day, and that takes millions of years. And uintil 14 millions years ago the continent were still warm.

About the magnetic poles yes, they were in another positions....

[thefinalfrontier]

Lux:

Is that a proven fact or a theory?

Not very familiar with this myself so if you could give me some information on how this has been determined that would be (n)ice. That goes for both the antarctic area being covered by ice and cold all that time, as well as the existence of humanity.

Also, considering the Earth is wobbling, is it not possible that at some time the poles were in different positions than they are now geographically speaking?

Thanks and regards,

-EA

Yes I also am interested in this myself, IMO based on the thawing going on in switzerland right now in the high mountians and they are finding Arrows and the fletches that carried them (made of leather) as well as bows so this kinda makes me think that it was very possible for the antarctic was warmer at one time, It would be of great interest if scientists were to go and do some research of the place, We never know what may be laying below the thick ice, Unfortunatly it would be a major undertaking to explore the thick ice,

Edit to add that they have found fauna in the thawing ice of the mountians of Switzerland,

I cant find the original story but here is a story about glacial warming and a major find in the thawing ice;

http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/1999/08/23/bc...enay990823.html

Edited September 14, 2008 by thefinalfrontier

[thefinalfrontier]

I am by no means opposed to the idea of an ancient Antarctic civilization long ago buried underneath the ice-packs.

The problem is that to date the evidence has not been very good.

It is, in fact, very nearly non-existent.

P. S. And even if such a civilization did exist, wouldn't its remains have long-since been crushed to utter-unrecognizeability by the tremendous weight of the ice?

Totally Agree with you OldTimeRadio, Thanks for the input,