Do you believe the Amityville story was true?

[Captain Jirk]

Hmm...I wonder why they won't explain any more than that. I guess they want to leave us wanting more.

Whatever happened, George took it to the grave.

[Korbus]

William Weber was also trying to sell a book. IMO that negates his credibility.

HAHAHAHAHAHA THATS HILARIOUS!!!

You were kidding, right? Having a book negates Weber's credibility but not the Lutz's? LOVE the logic.

[Korbus]

I had to laugh when a neighbor reported he never heard or saw anything out of the ordinary so he called it a hoax, but the only ones who truly witness these horrid things are the ones in the house, and sometimes not everyone, it just depends on who it attaches to..JN

But wouldn't you agree stuff like this is a little too convenient as well? Doesn't it make more practical sense that the neighbor never heard or saw anything out of the ordinary because there was nothing out of the ordinary to hear or see? I'm not saying nothing happened, but to just be able toss out independent testimony because well, hey, it was demonic...unless it's attached to you, you won't see it in action. It just seems too convenient. Especially for claims such as theirs, ya know?

My opinion, anyway.

[Marby]

Demonics dont stay when their victims leave, they often follow, and they did. Once they moved to CA it took two more years to get rid of them, then they divorced etc.They are now deceased, but I believe they told the truth and if anyone has been thru a demonic haunting, they could relate to nearly everything that happened in that house. I am not familar with what happened before the DeFeo's moved in, but I believe evil caused DeFeo to kill his family. Demonics may leave, but the evil continues. I had to laugh when a neighbor reported he never heard or saw anything out of the ordinary so he called it a hoax, but the only ones who truly witness these horrid things are the ones in the house, and sometimes not everyone, it just depends on who it attaches to..JN

Never mind long held bitterness, heroin, and alcohol...

[JustNormal]

But wouldn't you agree stuff like this is a little too convenient as well? Doesn't it make more practical sense that the neighbor never heard or saw anything out of the ordinary because there was nothing out of the ordinary to hear or see? I'm not saying nothing happened, but to just be able toss out independent testimony because well, hey, it was demonic...unless it's attached to you, you won't see it in action. It just seems too convenient. Especially for claims such as theirs, ya know?

My opinion, anyway.

I went thru a demonic haunting Jason and the neighbors in this house knew nothing about it. The didnt hear the crashing, or explosions, or me getting pushed down the stairs or thrown across the kitchen floor about ten feet. If anyone were to ask them, they would say "we never heard or saw anything." They did think I "fell" down the stairs, and heard it but never came to help me. During a Demonic haunting, they basically isolate you, so that you feel totally alone, and truly feel you are going out of your mind, because you see and hear what others dont. I cannot tell you how many times my son was sleeping on the sofa and heard nothing, and slept thru the HELL in my bedroom. This is what they do, they dont make themselves known except to their target. Other times he would go thru things and I heard nothing, I slept but not often. I feel the reason George didnt discuss it, is sometimes its said just acknowledging it can bring it back. So its an entire change in my life, my faith and the way I live my life. There was ONE time my son brought his girlfriend here for the first time and they were in the living room and I was in the kitchen and I heard her say "WHAT IS THAT?" She happened to see a face on the ceiling and she never came back..So my point being is, that some wanted me to share the story but I decided not to except for here, just here. There is NO YouTube and there are numerous things I havent told anyone yet. So do I think the Lutz's went thru that, yes I do..JN

[JustNormal]

Never mind long held bitterness, heroin, and alcohol...

That is what was said, not a fact. Plus its a well known fact the addicts attract Demonics because they are weak of mind and faith..JN

[Korbus]

That is what was said, not a fact. Plus its a well known fact the addicts attract Demonics because they are weak of mind and faith..JN

But demons aren't even a proven fact, so how can it be a fact that addicts attract Demonics?

I don't know...Butch DeFeo had a LOT of problems that are documented fact. I wish demons were a documented fact, but truthfully, they are not. A lot of anecdotal evidence, but unfortunately not a whole lot other than that.

[Korbus]

I went thru a demonic haunting Jason and the neighbors in this house knew nothing about it. The didnt hear the crashing, or explosions, or me getting pushed down the stairs or thrown across the kitchen floor about ten feet. If anyone were to ask them, they would say "we never heard or saw anything." They did think I "fell" down the stairs, and heard it but never came to help me. During a Demonic haunting, they basically isolate you, so that you feel totally alone, and truly feel you are going out of your mind, because you see and hear what others dont. I cannot tell you how many times my son was sleeping on the sofa and heard nothing, and slept thru the HELL in my bedroom. This is what they do, they dont make themselves known except to their target. Other times he would go thru things and I heard nothing, I slept but not often. I feel the reason George didnt discuss it, is sometimes its said just acknowledging it can bring it back. So its an entire change in my life, my faith and the way I live my life. There was ONE time my son brought his girlfriend here for the first time and they were in the living room and I was in the kitchen and I heard her say "WHAT IS THAT?" She happened to see a face on the ceiling and she never came back..So my point being is, that some wanted me to share the story but I decided not to except for here, just here. There is NO YouTube and there are numerous things I havent told anyone yet. So do I think the Lutz's went thru that, yes I do..JN

But unfortunately your story is anecdotal as well. It's a shame, too. Let me ask you this though...when PI's deal with claims of demonic infestation/oppression, etc. it is normally required that the target of the activity undergo a psychiatric evaluation. Did you ever undergo anything like that? Not saying you're crazy, of course! Haha. I'm just curious. See, I want to be able to handle any potential demonic style activity in the future better with my own group and maybe your account can help. Thanks!

[Marby]

But demons aren't even a proven fact, so how can it be a fact that addicts attract Demonics?

I don't know...Butch DeFeo had a LOT of problems that are documented fact. I wish demons were a documented fact, but truthfully, they are not. A lot of anecdotal evidence, but unfortunately not a whole lot other than that.

What he said.

We know that he was a drug addict. That is fact. Were it not for the fact that he did this and went to jail and cleaned up there, he probably would have been dead ages ago. We know that he had a lot of family issues. That too, is fact.

Demons and demonic possession are not proven fact.

[Captain Jirk]

HAHAHAHAHAHA THATS HILARIOUS!!!

You were kidding, right? Having a book negates Weber's credibility but not the Lutz's? LOVE the logic.

I never said it didn't negate the Lutz's credibility. Let's try hard not to read words into people's statements. I said that the haunting holds a special place in my life since I'd read the book the first time when I was young and it scared the crap outta me. I also said best to believe what you believe and move on.

Weber, Osuna, Kaplan...they were all trying to cash in on the money train. Simple as that.

[JustNormal]

But demons aren't even a proven fact, so how can it be a fact that addicts attract Demonics?

I don't know...Butch DeFeo had a LOT of problems that are documented fact. I wish demons were a documented fact, but truthfully, they are not. A lot of anecdotal evidence, but unfortunately not a whole lot other than that.

Nothing is a proven fact in the field of the paranormal. However evil is evil. Demonics are not spirits, they are not ghosts, they are forces or entities, whichever term you choose to use. Have you heard the expressing " fight your demons?" Demonics prey on the weak, whether it be addiction, depression, or any form of illness for that matter IF they are around. They can lie dormant for centuries on the land, or home and then when the time is perfect they begin their agenda, and they draw us in, over and over again. They are IN your face 24/7 and you are never without them or ever alone. They have other ways to get in too, whether it be bilocation, or thru someone else that is practicing the occult. How can anyone document any haunting? How can anyone prove it? They cant, even if its a spirit, malevolant or a Poltergeist. Sometimes they come in like gangbusters, and other times its begins with Poltergeist activity, or what we think is a deceased loved one, or baby, and thats where we get nearly obsessed and curious, and that gives it more power and strength, but we dont know that at the time. To be honest, my son was in recovery at the time while it was going on. When he relapsed we had some heated arguments, the more activity was around us. It feels personal is the only way I can describe it. If my son relapsed, we grew further apart, so we both felt this force. Since he left, he is doing fantastic, clean and sober without negativity in his life any longer as am I. So was it influencing my son, YES? I just had surgery and was very ill so I was the main target. So it is possible that DeFeo himself, was a mess and that the Demonic used him to do its dirty work, thats what they do. These are very personal experiences but I choose to share them here, because if it helps people realize what is out there, and it helps someone else, its well worth it..JN

[JustNormal]

But unfortunately your story is anecdotal as well. It's a shame, too. Let me ask you this though...when PI's deal with claims of demonic infestation/oppression, etc. it is normally required that the target of the activity undergo a psychiatric evaluation. Did you ever undergo anything like that? Not saying you're crazy, of course! Haha. I'm just curious. See, I want to be able to handle any potential demonic style activity in the future better with my own group and maybe your account can help. Thanks!

My story IS anecdotal, and no one has to believe me, but all that matters now is that I KNOW what happened as well as the Demonologist, team and priest. I had two psych evaluations, and an MRI of the brain and I do have one lol, but the MRI was my choice as was the second opionion with a psychiatrist. I also sought medical attention in the ER 3 times, and sought my physician numerous times, and fortunately he knew me well, and that these things WERE happening. The ER staff thought I there was domestic violence in my home, and TRY to explain that? I knew I wasnt crazy, but I felt like I was well on my way. When a PI team goes in, its easy to tell whether they are emotionally or mentally ill. The one thing to do is LISTEN to their experiences very closely. Demonic hauntings are all different but very much alike, due to the fact Demonics are here to terrorize humans, instill fear, and evil, and ruin their lives, tear the family unit apart, so the end result is suicide, or just going insane so they can possess and take right over. It can influence their thoughts and invade their dreams, so again listen to them. My home had a heavy feeling to it, which the PI team and the Demonologist got the minute they walked in the door. How do you tell someone you hear voices without sounding mentally ill? How do you tell them you see horrible things that no one else sees at the time? Again, I just said it, and seeming as though I happen to be quite normal, I was believed. But usually and NOT always, some of the signs are night terrors that seem real, hearing voices BUT not in the head, in the house, dark masses, or "dark shadows" and horrible odors of death, suflur or ammonia. Another is seeing animals, run by, or being pushed, shoved or smacked around by something unseen. Lastly the worst is the illusions. They use our fears, and take them to a whole new level, in order to scare us to death. For example I am afraid of spiders. I would see a huge black massive spider web over my bed above my face, with big black spiders hanging from the web. There were times I thought I would just have a heart attack from the things I saw, never mind heard. Also every little secret is revealed back to us, or any childhood painful incidents of a minor degree become real, larger and magnified times 100, to the point we may feel guilt,sadness, and this can be different for every person. Basically it screws with our head, our hearts, and our lives. I remember one night I got up to go to the bathroom and as I entered the doorway the entire area was COVERED with a HUGE rubbery spider web, so I touched it, and it would NOT let me in. So I learned to ignore it and went back to bed, NOT back to sleep. It wants to isolate the victim, it laughs to itself or out loud when our lives become something out of a horror movie, as a family becomes more affected, and they fight over things, sometimes the activity itself, and they drift apart. These are just a few, along with sounds of crashing, explosions, footsteps, knocking, and many times its constant so that we cant sleep or even think straight along with seeing dead people or gross "ghosts." So, lastly lol there is a difference in hauntings, just listen, and if you feel it could be a demonic or not, NEVER tell the client you disbelieve them, just take notes, and always record the interviews. Witness accounts are sometimes very different, because it effects each individual differently. Many of it is poltergeist activity but there is a difference between a Poltergeist and activity. Also when PI teams come out or priests these things hide, because making themselves known would ruin their plan, so it takes time. Use your intuition and IF you think the person is possibly mentally ill and the signs are there, just ask them to get a psych eval, and take it from there. JN

[Moonie2012]

Plus its a well known fact the addicts attract Demonics because they are weak of mind and faith..JN

No, it isn't. Please quit presenting you opinions as facts.

Edited September 14, 2008 by Moonie2012

[JustNormal]

No, it isn't. Please quit presenting you opinions as facts.

It IS amongst those who have knowledge regarding these things. IT IS a fact, not just my opinion. Do some research on this before you make statements that yours are fact, and mine or not..JN

[Plainbob13]

Now this thread is starting to sound like the Mother ship of good threads.

[Korbus]

I never said it didn't negate the Lutz's credibility. Let's try hard not to read words into people's statements. I said that the haunting holds a special place in my life since I'd read the book the first time when I was young and it scared the crap outta me. I also said best to believe what you believe and move on.

Weber, Osuna, Kaplan...they were all trying to cash in on the money train. Simple as that.

No, its pretty obvious you believe the Lutz's are telling the truth, despite the fact they have a book, movies, etc. But Weber, Kaplan....their credibility is shot because they had books. It's inconsistent, that's all I'm saying. But yes, I agree. We'll just believe what we each believe and move on.

[Captain Jirk]

No, its pretty obvious you believe the Lutz's are telling the truth, despite the fact they have a book, movies, etc. But Weber, Kaplan....their credibility is shot because they had books. It's inconsistent, that's all I'm saying. But yes, I agree. We'll just believe what we each believe and move on.

Well, I believe in the haunting to an extent, but that's more because I've both grown up with the story, and I want to believe it, and because I've had the opportunity to talk to George and Christopher myself.

But I have no resentment towards people who don't want to believe in it. I think there's enough evidence out there to make the hoax theory valid, as there is enough questions out there to make the idea that the haunting actually happened to be valid.

[Korbus]

It IS amongst those who have knowledge regarding these things. IT IS a fact, not just my opinion. Do some research on this before you make statements that yours are fact, and mine or not..JN

I'm not speaking for Moonie here....but I think what he may be trying to say is that the idea that demonics attach to addicts is a theory. Since nothing paranormal is a proven fact, that it's all theories, it can't be said that your earlier statement is a fact...even if we all researched these things. I've researched a lot regarding the paranormal and can personally list you a whole lot of theories about a lot of different things, but I can't say any of it is proven fact.

But I don't know. That's just my opinion of what he was trying to get across. Maybe I'm wrong.

[JustNormal]

I'm not speaking for Moonie here....but I think what he may be trying to say is that the idea that demonics attach to addicts is a theory. Since nothing paranormal is a proven fact, that it's all theories, it can't be said that your earlier statement is a fact...even if we all researched these things. I've researched a lot regarding the paranormal and can personally list you a whole lot of theories about a lot of different things, but I can't say any of it is proven fact.

But I don't know. That's just my opinion of what he was trying to get across. Maybe I'm wrong.

Researching is great being a PI and I applaud you for that. However I know what Moonie was trying to say. But lets give an example here. Lets say you had a rare disease and even the doctors could not truly diagnose, till you found a specialist who did, and he treated you and you got well. Then you go to a message board, where people do not believe in that disease, and feel its all in your head, and you cannot prove that you had it. It WOULD be fact to you, because you not only suffered through it but had one of the top medical specialists in the Country explain everything to you. Then others say they reseached it, but dont believe it, and the AMA doesnt acknowlege it as a "disease." So take that example, and think about it. Its called experience, and all one can do is attempt to share their ordeal with others in hopes it might help "one" person, its worth its weight in gold. No one here has to believe in Demonics or Amityville, or spirits for that matter. Everyone here has gone thru a different pararnormal experience of some kind, and when they share, I read and keep an open mind because IF something like that happened, I would not feel alone. You can research till your 90 years old, but living it is a whole different ballgame so to speak If you ever do investigate a Demonic haunting, its something you will never ever forget..JN

[Marby]

I just don't think that the demonic element is a valid part of the story. Sure, there are all sorts of theories about demons attaching themselves to the weak minded, blah blah blah, but it is nothing that can be substantiated. It's not about belief, it's about looking at the hard facts surrounding the DeFeo family dynamic, as well as DeFeo's addiction and anger issues.

I don't see where it's necessary to add the demonic element to the murders when you had all the facts about this picture of dysfunction and addiction leading up to the murders. It was almost an inevitability. The only reason people attach this demonic thing to DeFeo is because the Lutz's, with all sorts of motivation behind them, decided to create this hoax that has been debunked many times over.

As far as I am concerned, the demonic element is really a pathetic way to remove some of the responsibility from a brutal murderer.

Edited September 14, 2008 by Marby

[JustNormal]

I just don't think that the demonic element is a valid part of the story. Sure, there are all sorts of theories about demons attaching themselves to the weak minded, blah blah blah, but it is nothing that can be substantiated. It's not about belief, it's about looking at the hard facts surrounding the DeFeo family dynamic, as well as DeFeo's addiction and anger issues.

I don't see where it's necessary to add the demonic element to the murders when you had all the facts about this picture of dysfunction and addiction leading up to the murders. It was almost an inevitability. The only reason people attach this demonic thing to DeFeo is because the Lutz's, with all sorts of motivation behind them, decided to create this hoax that has been debunked many times over.

As far as I am concerned, the demonic element is really a pathetic way to remove some of the responsibility from a brutal murderer.

Well, like the rest you are entitled to your opinion and its just as good as anyone elses. However DeFeo being in prison doesnt take away responsibilty of his actions on that night. As I said before, either we believe or we dont, and I personally dont intend in trying to change anyone else's mind, its just what I do believe..JN

[Marby]

Well, like the rest you are entitled to your opinion and its just as good as anyone elses. However DeFeo being in prison doesnt take away responsibilty of his actions on that night. As I said before, either we believe or we dont, and I personally dont intend in trying to change anyone else's mind, its just what I do believe..JN

You are welcome to your beliefs, and I am not out to change yours. I just don't get how this case can be held up as some sort of example of demonic forces at work when it has holes in it as large as the Grand Canyon. Surely there are better, well documented cases presented by people with even a teensy bit of credibility out there. A teensy bit is more than anyone involved with Amityville could have ever hoped to have.

[Korbus]

Researching is great being a PI and I applaud you for that. However I know what Moonie was trying to say. But lets give an example here. Lets say you had a rare disease and even the doctors could not truly diagnose, till you found a specialist who did, and he treated you and you got well. Then you go to a message board, where people do not believe in that disease, and feel its all in your head, and you cannot prove that you had it. It WOULD be fact to you, because you not only suffered through it but had one of the top medical specialists in the Country explain everything to you. Then others say they reseached it, but dont believe it, and the AMA doesnt acknowlege it as a "disease." So take that example, and think about it. Its called experience, and all one can do is attempt to share their ordeal with others in hopes it might help "one" person, its worth its weight in gold. No one here has to believe in Demonics or Amityville, or spirits for that matter. Everyone here has gone thru a different pararnormal experience of some kind, and when they share, I read and keep an open mind because IF something like that happened, I would not feel alone. You can research till your 90 years old, but living it is a whole different ballgame so to speak If you ever do investigate a Demonic haunting, its something you will never ever forget..JN

Maybe you and Moonie have a history I am not aware of. I don't know. I'll just leave that alone now, I guess.

What I guess I have been trying to say is that while we can all talk about our experiences, we can't say our theories are facts. We can say we saw this, felt that, were thrown all around a room by the other thing...but it's all anecdotal only. While it might be a fact for you, it's not a fact for anyone else. I've had dreams I could swear were real after I woke up, but the events in them didn't really happen. It was a dream. It may have felt real. I may have told other people about it, but it was still a dream.

As you said yourself...everything in the paranormal is a theory. So we can't just go around saying things like it's a proven fact that demons attach to addicts. It simply isn't a proven fact. It's a theory. It may be a theory people personally subscribe to. It may be a theory people have experienced and believe to be true. But as a person who does paranormal investigations, if I told a client something currently considered paranormal is a proven fact, I'd be misleading them.

Here's what I feel separates theories from facts at the present moment in cases like this: having the ability or inability to reproduce the results, or have direct evidence of the experience. Say I sneeze so hard that a picture falls off my wall. I could then posit that a sneeze knocks pictures off the wall. Now, later that night I sneeze again, this time even harder, only that picture doesn't fall off the wall. My theory is done. Or, let's say I experience unseen hands grabbing me and pushing me down the stairs. My evidence is bruises on my arm and scrapes on my knee. That is evidence of injuries, but not evidence of a malevolent entity. For that, I would need video of me getting chucked around or an independent 3rd party to interview the entity...and they usually don't make themselves available for questioning, haha.

So, that's my point. I would love to say different paranormal theories are fact. But, it doesn't matter what I've seen or experienced or been told. Without direct evidence or repeatable experimental results...it's theory only. Nothing more.

Well, that's my position. I just wanted to state it as clearly as I could so no one who happens upon this thread is confused. As always, I am happy to agree to disagree with anyone. But I just wanted to state my case.

Thanks!

[JustNormal]

Maybe you and Moonie have a history I am not aware of. I don't know. I'll just leave that alone now, I guess.

What I guess I have been trying to say is that while we can all talk about our experiences, we can't say our theories are facts. We can say we saw this, felt that, were thrown all around a room by the other thing...but it's all anecdotal only. While it might be a fact for you, it's not a fact for anyone else. I've had dreams I could swear were real after I woke up, but the events in them didn't really happen. It was a dream. It may have felt real. I may have told other people about it, but it was still a dream.

As you said yourself...everything in the paranormal is a theory. So we can't just go around saying things like it's a proven fact that demons attach to addicts. It simply isn't a proven fact. It's a theory. It may be a theory people personally subscribe to. It may be a theory people have experienced and believe to be true. But as a person who does paranormal investigations, if I told a client something currently considered paranormal is a proven fact, I'd be misleading them.

Here's what I feel separates theories from facts at the present moment in cases like this: having the ability or inability to reproduce the results, or have direct evidence of the experience. Say I sneeze so hard that a picture falls off my wall. I could then posit that a sneeze knocks pictures off the wall. Now, later that night I sneeze again, this time even harder, only that picture doesn't fall off the wall. My theory is done. Or, let's say I experience unseen hands grabbing me and pushing me down the stairs. My evidence is bruises on my arm and scrapes on my knee. That is evidence of injuries, but not evidence of a malevolent entity. For that, I would need video of me getting chucked around or an independent 3rd party to interview the entity...and they usually don't make themselves available for questioning, haha.

So, that's my point. I would love to say different paranormal theories are fact. But, it doesn't matter what I've seen or experienced or been told. Without direct evidence or repeatable experimental results...it's theory only. Nothing more.

Well, that's my position. I just wanted to state it as clearly as I could so no one who happens upon this thread is confused. As always, I am happy to agree to disagree with anyone. But I just wanted to state my case.

Thanks!

Point taken..One more scenario if I may lol..You get called to investigate a haunting, and the people report a great deal of negative activity, and fear for their lives and are in need of help ASAP..So you and your team go to the home, interview the family and conclude these folks seem legit and truly scared in their own home. They have a daughter who is out of control, drinks and does some drugs, and they are trying to help her, but she seems to be the target, she is horrified by what she has seen and heard. So you decide to investigate that night to put their minds at rest, and try decipher what is going on. During the night you hear a disembodied voice, and catch some of it on EVP's. But a disembodied voice can even be a human spirit. Then after some time, there is a gross stench in the home that makes you and the team vomit or feel sick. Then there are bangs on the wall that can be heard even on EVP and you really cannot debunk it, its coming from an inside wall with no one behind it or around it. Then you might decide to talk to IT and ask who it is, or to show itself. Next thing the batteries die, the lights go off and on and during that, an unforseen force pushes you into the wall and you fall to the floor in pain, and another team member is screaming cause he is being burned by what feels like a lit cigarette but no one is smoking of course. Then on night vision cam you see a large black mass, that is pulsating, but the camera dies so you dont get that evidence. Next thing the home owners daugher is pushed down a set of stairs, and you truly hear a deep disgusting disembodied voice laugh at all of you. Then while putting in new batteries in all equipment, one of your team levitates, right in front of your eyes, but damn you couldnt get it on tape cause the equipment was sabotaged.At the end of the investation you are all beat up, you have seen things, smelled things and had personal experiences that cause nightmares for a long time. You then realize that it was NO human spirit, or malevolent either. NOW, you go over your evidence and it doenst look like much, and the EVPS are okay but it was not what you expected. The family insists they want clergy in ASAP and the Priest or Pastor casts out a Demonic and all activity stops. You go back for follow up and all is fine, no smells no one being injured, family is happy and sleeping well now, and their daughter is back to her old self. HOW would you explain this to lets say UM? You knew exactly what happened, is that a theory or is that a fact that it DID occur? Of course to you, its a FACT, but to the rest of folks here, your evidence does not quite match up with anything that frightening. You SO wanted to share and explain your experience, but whose going to believe you? Was the daughter influenced or just a brat? These are things you should consider Jason, because NOT everything is theory once its experienced, it then becomes fact to the ones who went thru it. Does this make my point clearer? LOL..JN

[Korbus]

Point taken..One more scenario if I may lol..You get called to investigate a haunting, and the people report a great deal of negative activity, and fear for their lives and are in need of help ASAP..So you and your team go to the home, interview the family and conclude these folks seem legit and truly scared in their own home. They have a daughter who is out of control, drinks and does some drugs, and they are trying to help her, but she seems to be the target, she is horrified by what she has seen and heard. So you decide to investigate that night to put their minds at rest, and try decipher what is going on. During the night you hear a disembodied voice, and catch some of it on EVP's. But a disembodied voice can even be a human spirit. Then after some time, there is a gross stench in the home that makes you and the team vomit or feel sick. Then there are bangs on the wall that can be heard even on EVP and you really cannot debunk it, its coming from an inside wall with no one behind it or around it. Then you might decide to talk to IT and ask who it is, or to show itself. Next thing the batteries die, the lights go off and on and during that, an unforseen force pushes you into the wall and you fall to the floor in pain, and another team member is screaming cause he is being burned by what feels like a lit cigarette but no one is smoking of course. Then on night vision cam you see a large black mass, that is pulsating, but the camera dies so you dont get that evidence. Next thing the home owners daugher is pushed down a set of stairs, and you truly hear a deep disgusting disembodied voice laugh at all of you. Then while putting in new batteries in all equipment, one of your team levitates, right in front of your eyes, but damn you couldnt get it on tape cause the equipment was sabotaged.At the end of the investation you are all beat up, you have seen things, smelled things and had personal experiences that cause nightmares for a long time. You then realize that it was NO human spirit, or malevolent either. NOW, you go over your evidence and it doenst look like much, and the EVPS are okay but it was not what you expected. The family insists they want clergy in ASAP and the Priest or Pastor casts out a Demonic and all activity stops. You go back for follow up and all is fine, no smells no one being injured, family is happy and sleeping well now, and their daughter is back to her old self. HOW would you explain this to lets say UM? You knew exactly what happened, is that a theory or is that a fact that it DID occur? Of course to you, its a FACT, but to the rest of folks here, your evidence does not quite match up with anything that frightening. You SO wanted to share and explain your experience, but whose going to believe you? Was the daughter influenced or just a brat? These are things you should consider Jason, because NOT everything is theory once its experienced, it then becomes fact to the ones who went thru it. Does this make my point clearer? LOL..JN

Yes, even if that happened it would still be just a story because I don't have the evidence to back it up. Like I've been trying to say, I can talk all I want about experiences...but if I cannot prove the experience, it is still a theory based on anecdotal evidence. I believe I understand what you are saying. And I'm not even doubting your experiences you've talked about here. I appreciate your openness. I'm simply saying that without evidence, they don't just become proven fact. I realize this is a bit of a bummer, but that's just the way it is. You, me, and a lot of others on this forum have stated that all we have in the paranormal are theories. I can't make an exception or just unilaterally decide to pick and choose what are theories and what are truths based on anecdotes. That's simply not the way it works. That doesn't mean I don't believe a story, it just means I can't say the experiences someone tells me about are proven facts. That's all.

By the way, I see you have forum divinity now. I retract all my statements and bow down to you. Hahaha. Seriously though, you're the first person I've ever noticed having it. Wow!