Obama and McCain on Taxes

[IrishAidan07]

You telling us Clinton made most part of the world at peace???

More peaceful than it is now, wouldn't you agree?

Unless of course you consider torture and wars for oil peaceful.

"'wars for oil,' typical liberal response and lie!"

I can hear (read) it comin'.

[AROCES]

More peaceful than it is now, wouldn't you agree?

Unless of course you consider torture and wars for oil peaceful.

"'wars for oil,' typical liberal response and lie!"

I can hear (read) it comin'.

I really don't know how you can measure that it is more peaceful under Clinton. The first World Trade Center attack didnlt bring down the entire building, Clinton didn't respond and so they tried again on 9/11. He bombed Afghanistan, Sudan and Iraq as well, but it was all limited and calculated politically. There were civil wars all over the world as well during that time, and what about the school shootings and killings one after the other. More peaceful?

What have you got against protecting commerce or trade?

Edited September 18, 2008 by AROCES

[Dusty Digital]

Why can't anyone give me an example of how they personally (or at least their family) directly benefitted frin an income tax increase?

Bill Clinton raised taxes twice and that remained in effect for 8 years. Surely if tax increases are a good thing someone here benefitted?!

I live in a country of high taxes, and I feel I've certainly benefitted from it. Working and free educational and healthcare systems are a definite benefit (though they are far from perfect). Other benefits that are paid for with collected taxes, such as student support, discounts for public transportation, and a working infrastructure are also benefits I appreciate.

We're my taxes to be raised I would assume I would get some benefit from it in terms of public services offered to me.

I don't really understand what the point of your question is. I expect our idea of government differs a lot: You think that raised taxes just "disappear" into the bowels of the government. I'm more optimistic: I expect that those raises go to needed public goods.

[IrishAidan07]

I really don't know how you can measure that it is more peaceful under Clinton. The first World Trade Center attack didnlt bring down the entire building, Clinton didn't respond and so they tried again on 9/11. He bombed Afghanistan, Sudan and Iraq as well, but it was all limited and calculated politically. There were civil wars all over the world as well during that time, and what about the school shootings and killings one after the other. More peaceful?

What have you got against protecting commerce or trade?

When was the first WTC attack? If I recall, just after Clinton took office. And the criminals were captured and imprisoned. And anytime Clinton tried to go after Usama, all you Republicans said it was "wag the dog." You denied that Usama was a problem. Now, when it is politically convenient, you say different. As for the school shootings and civil war, that stuff goes on now! But we weren't involved in a massive war, like the one in Iraq that has cost over 4000 American lives and countless more Iraqi's. Anytime their was a civil war, for the most part, Clinton tried to stop it. Remember Kosovo? The world is more hostile now than it was under Clinton. I just don't see how anyone can deny that.

[AROCES]

When was the first WTC attack? If I recall, just after Clinton took office. And the criminals were captured and imprisoned. And anytime Clinton tried to go after Usama, all you Republicans said it was "wag the dog." You denied that Usama was a problem. Now, when it is politically convenient, you say different. As for the school shootings and civil war, that stuff goes on now! But we weren't involved in a massive war, like the one in Iraq that has cost over 4000 American lives and countless more Iraqi's. Anytime their was a civil war, for the most part, Clinton tried to stop it. Remember Kosovo? The world is more hostile now than it was under Clinton. I just don't see how anyone can deny that.

1993, does not matter if Clinton was just elected, it was under his watch. Just like 9/11 no one is saying Bush just got elected.

You telling us then that just because some were saying wag the dog, Clinton hesitated going after Osama?

It's been hostile world, just that now we are fighting back instead of just taking caualties and hoping they don't get mad at us anymore..

Edited September 18, 2008 by AROCES

[MasterPo]

It's The Economy, Stupid!!!

Remember that? Well, it was. Much better under Clinton. His policies helped in the creation of numerous jobs. The world was at peace, for the most part, which helped. I mean, do I really need to count the ways in which Clinton was a better president?

Can you (or anyone) explain how his raising taxes increased jobs and the economy??

I would say things were good inspite of Clinton.

BTW, remember the Dot-Com crash? All built up under Bill.

[IrishAidan07]

I would say things were good inspite of Clinton.

Of course. But Reagan's economy was a direct result of his policies, right?

[MasterPo]

I live in a country of high taxes, and I feel I've certainly benefitted from it. Working and free educational and healthcare systems are a definite benefit (though they are far from perfect). Other benefits that are paid for with collected taxes, such as student support, discounts for public transportation, and a working infrastructure are also benefits I appreciate.

You are your brother's keeper. How nice.

Of course. But Reagan's economy was a direct result of his policies, right?

I did great in the 80's!

[Clocker]

You are your brother's keeper. How nice.

You asked for an example, got one, and that's your response? Sweet.

[MasterPo]

You asked for an example, got one, and that's your response? Sweet.

Fine. How about this:

If you feel so magnanamous by all means open your check book right now and send in a big sum to the U.S. Treasury. I guarantee they will accept it. Put your wallet where your mouth is. How come people love to spend other peopel's income by way of taxes but would never think fo sending in extra money to the IRS? Afterall, it goes to help others - that's your point.

But don't presume to speak for me.

[IrishAidan07]

Fine. How about this:

If you feel so magnanamous by all means open your check book right now and send in a big sum to the U.S. Treasury. I guarantee they will accept it. Put your wallet where your mouth is. How come people love to spend other peopel's income by way of taxes but would never think fo sending in extra money to the IRS? Afterall, it goes to help others - that's your point.

But don't presume to speak for me.

He doesn't have to. The government where he lives takes much of his income for those things.

Edited September 19, 2008 by IrishAidan

[Fluffybunny]

Fine. How about this:

If you feel so magnanamous by all means open your check book right now and send in a big sum to the U.S. Treasury. I guarantee they will accept it. Put your wallet where your mouth is. How come people love to spend other peopel's income by way of taxes but would never think fo sending in extra money to the IRS? Afterall, it goes to help others - that's your point.

But don't presume to speak for me.

Actually if you overpay, they will send the money back to you. They want the money you legally owe, and no more.

Meanwhile, you have been driving on roads that I have been paying for, protected by my tax dollar and had a city infrastructure that your fellow citizens paid for, you did not. We all share to have it better...or would you rather have dirt roads and a hole in the back yard for a toilet?

No one likes taxes, but having served in countries where there are no services like what we have here, I can assure you that the taxes we pay here do establish a rather nice country to come home to. Yes there is waste that needs to be addressed in our tax systems...things need to be changed so we get the most bang for our buck, but I think that people that dont want to pay any taxes at all would likely not be willing to live in the 3rd world standards that it would put us in to do so. Having a country where we can lookout for each other is a positive thing in my opinion. Maybe you'd rather step over the bodies of those in need without a second thought, but there are those of us in the world that give a crap about the rest of humanity and do what we can to make this country as nice a place to live as we can. Some of us even go so far as to risk our lives to do it.

[AROCES]

Actually if you overpay, they will send the money back to you. They want the money you legally owe, and no more.

Meanwhile, you have been driving on roads that I have been paying for, protected by my tax dollar and had a city infrastructure that your fellow citizens paid for, you did not. We all share to have it better...or would you rather have dirt roads and a hole in the back yard for a toilet?

No one likes taxes, but having served in countries where there are no services like what we have here, I can assure you that the taxes we pay here do establish a rather nice country to come home to. Yes there is waste that needs to be addressed in our tax systems...things need to be changed so we get the most bang for our buck, but I think that people that dont want to pay any taxes at all would likely not be willing to live in the 3rd world standards that it would put us in to do so. Having a country where we can lookout for each other is a positive thing in my opinion. Maybe you'd rather step over the bodies of those in need without a second thought, but there are those of us in the world that give a crap about the rest of humanity and do what we can to make this country as nice a place to live as we can. Some of us even go so far as to risk our lives to do it.

There is more than enought money sent to the Federal govt, just a matter of getting the corruption, abuses, graft and silly programs out of it and we don't even have to raise anyones taxes.

[SoCrazes]

We are all "slaves" to needing to make a living so that is a rhetorical response at best and as usual you side-step the issue.

What happened to your pubs and capitalism? The pub administration is bailing out financial companies that can't do finance. This is not capitalism. I can't do haircuts, perms, or nails; do you think they'll bail my butt out if my salon business fails?

[SoCrazes]

Fine. How about this:

If you feel so magnanamous by all means open your check book right now and send in a big sum to the U.S. Treasury. I guarantee they will accept it. Put your wallet where your mouth is. How come people love to spend other peopel's income by way of taxes but would never think fo sending in extra money to the IRS? Afterall, it goes to help others - that's your point.

But don't presume to speak for me.

Not true! My wife and I accidentally paid the taxes twice and we received a check without even asking.

[IrishAidan07]

Why, by God, would anyone be upset about their tax dollars helping a single mother or father of two!?

Jesus Christ.... I mean, this is certainly one reason I could never be a Repuke. What is it, exactly, about your money going to help people that bothers you?

I mean, that is an oversimplified statement. But let's be honest: How many times do we hear Republicans yappin' about welfare?

You'll support this BS war but not a family eating.

F that.

Edited September 20, 2008 by IrishAidan

[SoCrazes]

It's The Economy, Stupid!!!

Remember that? Well, it was. Much better under Clinton. His policies helped in the creation of numerous jobs. The world was at peace, for the most part, which helped. I mean, do I really need to count the ways in which Clinton was a better president?

In hind sight, the nation operated nicely under "slick willy." I was a staunch republican then. Now, after 8 years of seeing our constitution being used for tp in the oval office and cheney's think room while congress looks the other way (or are they a bunch of "yes men/women"?), jobs being shipped abroad, illegal aliens taking many of our jobs, our country supporting illegal aliens education and medical needs, inflation rocketing, home prices falling, loss of benefits, etc.

This "World is Flat" is flat crap. Nationalize MNCs, go back to following the Constitution, throw out the illegal aliens, start protecting our markets, and vote (write in) Dr. Ron Paul. Our economy and government are in the toliet - what is going on is only working for the few.

Edited September 20, 2008 by SoCrazes

[IrishAidan07]

In hind sight, the nation operated nicely under "slick willy."

Plus...Any true man will admit Bill's sexiness.

I mean, seriously.....

[Dusty Digital]

Fine. How about this:

If you feel so magnanamous by all means open your check book right now and send in a big sum to the U.S. Treasury. I guarantee they will accept it. Put your wallet where your mouth is. How come people love to spend other peopel's income by way of taxes but would never think fo sending in extra money to the IRS? Afterall, it goes to help others - that's your point.

But don't presume to speak for me.

As Clocker said, you asked for an example and got one. And those benefits I mention were all benefits that I enjoy (I'm a student who uses public transportation and public healthcare, but I also work and pay taxes).

The rest of your post is just a ridiculous strawman. I have no grand feelings of magnanimousness, I'm simply content to pay taxes for certain public goods. Currently I'm probably a net beneficiary though (my income as a student and part-time worker means that my tax-rate is relatively low), so you might consider me biased. It seems you are against taxes in general though?

[danielost]

More peaceful than it is now, wouldn't you agree?

Unless of course you consider torture and wars for oil peaceful.

"'wars for oil,' typical liberal response and lie!"

I can hear (read) it comin'.

Clinton still holds the record for number of missions that the military was sent on of any pres. since world war 2. Iraq and Afghanistan only count as 2 maybe 3 at the most.

[Clocker]

Fine. How about this:

If you feel so magnanamous by all means open your check book right now and send in a big sum to the U.S. Treasury. I guarantee they will accept it. Put your wallet where your mouth is. How come people love to spend other peopel's income by way of taxes but would never think fo sending in extra money to the IRS? Afterall, it goes to help others - that's your point.

But don't presume to speak for me.

And now a straw-man argument? Answer me this: why would I ever send any money to the US Treasury when I don't even live in the US? I pay taxes to the country where I work and live in and in return get services like infrastructure, police, fire fighters, healthcare, education etc. Sure, some of that goes to the poor, and some of that goes to some genuinely lazy people who abuse it, happens everywhere. That's a tradeoff, admittedly. The benefits in addition to what I listed include less crime, which means better security, which always seems to be a hot topic for conservatives.

Now, if your base assumption is that tax money actually does nothing thanks to corruption, heavy bureaucracy etc. (which is largely not the case here) then I understand you. I mean I'm not confident at all that the model we have here would work in the US, at least not as well as it does here. There's a fairly big difference in our cultures in some ways after all. But as for raising taxes helping anyone, I personally know people whom it has helped here, though we haven't had any raises in a while.

[MasterPo]

Actually if you overpay, they will send the money back to you. They want the money you legally owe, and no more.

And "the rich" pay it. So what's the problem? - It's that you feel they should be legally required to pay more!

Meanwhile, you have been driving on roads that I have been paying for, protected by my tax dollar and had a city infrastructure that your fellow citizens paid for, you did not. We all share to have it better...or would you rather have dirt roads and a hole in the back yard for a toilet?

If you're going to take that POV then just put a toll booth at the enterance of every state/county/city/town/village in the country. Even if I'm just driving through on the way to someplace else, by your thinking I owe that municipality money for having the police/fire/amulance/snow removal/street lights/etc provided to me in case I needed it.

On more time for the record: I am not a zero-tax libertarian!! Taxes are necessary to finance certain functions of a nation that individually we can't do ourselves such as bridges and dams, water ways, natioanl security/defense etc. But beyond that when you rare talking about taxingh someone just because they have more than someone else that is at the very least immoral.

BTW, the 2008 Federal budget was $3.1 trillion dollars. Don't you think that's enough????

[MasterPo]

Not true! My wife and I accidentally paid the taxes twice and we received a check without even asking.

By your philosophy you should have sent that check right back!

Afterall, some poor person somewhere needs the money much more than you do!

[MasterPo]

Why, by God, would anyone be upset about their tax dollars helping a single mother or father of two!?

Jesus Christ.... I mean, this is certainly one reason I could never be a Repuke. What is it, exactly, about your money going to help people that bothers you?

I mean, that is an oversimplified statement. But let's be honest: How many times do we hear Republicans yappin' about welfare?

You'll support this BS war but not a family eating.

F that.

It's a personal choice. Not your authority to make that choice for me.

If I want to contribute to a charity or organization that helps such people, that's up to me. It is totally arrogant of you and those with that mindset to presume to have a higher understanding of the problems of people than I do and feel the need to force me to pay.

I'd remind you that for nearly 150 years there was no Welfare, food stamps, Social Security, etc and America/Americans grew and prospered quite nicely.

Edited September 20, 2008 by MasterPo

[Whangarei]

Why, by God, would anyone be upset about their tax dollars helping a single mother or father of two!?

Jesus Christ.... I mean, this is certainly one reason I could never be a Repuke. What is it, exactly, about your money going to help people that bothers you?

I mean, that is an oversimplified statement. But let's be honest: How many times do we hear Republicans yappin' about welfare?

You'll support this BS war but not a family eating.

F that.

Quite obviously you are living in some shangrila version of "po folks" and who is getting this charity. This is the same kind of logic that wound up creating million dollar gifts to the family of fire fighters that were lost in 9-11. At the end of the day a firefighter who is lost in the line of duty receives a life pension. His family is taken care of by this pension. So the income stays. Additionally there are insurance policies and whatnot. So after 911 a lot of people donated their money to help the families of fire fighters not knowing at all the people they were 'reaching out to help" had way more than these humble people would ever see in their life time. You suggest that a single mother is struggling etc etc. And this is the mentality of the adrift American who has no family. I know a single mother right now. She is 21 years old and had a baby three days ago. Social services followed her home to make sure she had a healthy living environment. She lives in her grandmothers house. Her mother lives upstairs from grandmother in a two family house. There are people all around to support her and fridges filled with food. This same girl is someone who got 10 grand in a motorcycle accident a few years ago and blew through it in a year on absolutely nothing except drugs and Burger King. She doesn't go to college and doesn't have a job. She's got a safety net. Do you honestly think money is her problem? People who don't have money find ways to make things work. That is the American work ethic. You don't expect other people to solve your problems for you. You face them yourself and in doing so you grow up and become a strong person. It seems to me that people who have a little more money than is average for their age group and got it in an easy way, feel guilty about this and are flummoxed that others don't feel guilty about building what they earned and expecting others to do the same. There is nothing wrong with expecting people to work for what they want. We don't live in the Amazon. I suggest you try sticking your head into these supposed poor folks homes. I bet you will be shocked to see that they live better than you'd imagine. In a lot of cases these people live better than people who are working hard and don't take a penny from anyone.