Samael Posted September 30, 2008 #151 Share Posted September 30, 2008 >_< Ethical treatment of animals, fine. But the PETA has long descended into the realms of idiocy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belle. Posted September 30, 2008 #152 Share Posted September 30, 2008 (edited) I'll say it... I was raised a vegan... I love animals, I've always kept dogs, and I raised parrots for many years. I'm also a Quaker, one of our core beliefs is non-violence to living things. However, I do not believe animals to be our equal, but they are deserving of our care and respect, but again, I don't beleive they are our equals. They have a purpose on this earth but that purpose isn't necessarily to live out their lives being cared for by humans as our equals. Their purpose might be to be companions pets, to keep the ecology balanced, or, as a food source. I don't think it is that I want animals to 'live out their lives being cared for by humans as our equals', they have their own lives to lead and in the main should be left alone. Where do we get the idea that we can decide another beings 'purpose'? Humans have a knack for attempting to do that with specific races and genders and it is always a pretty presumptuous godly type of call IMO. This type of thinking reminds me of the idea that the sun revolves around the earth. Other animals at least to my observations kinda have their own thing going on. They strive to get food, shelter, sex. I don't think things should be defined by their relationship to me. They have their own business. My whole essence is not defined in my relationship to my boyfriend and by my purpose for him. No I wouldn't say most vegetarian/vegans want animals to be our equal in anything but the 'free from pain and excessive interference' way. Do people really imagine that I would try to pass a bill getting cats equal voting rights? That I believe each company should hire a certain amount of geese or I'll say they are being discriminatory? When people such as myself talk about equality with animals it is usually referencing that they feel pain and fear equally as us. So I have no wish to increase that if I don't have to in order to survive. And that is your thing, you feel you need to in order to survive. People who profess to be 'animal lovers', but want to eat them, always appear to be justifying some harm done to them - when the love word comes up. It just is a little strange to say you love something but want to cause it pain and kill it. Anyway I don't have to be an 'Asian lover' to not want them to be discriminated against and feel sick when I see or hear racism, I don't have to be a 'woman lover' to think that women should be treated fairly et cetera et cetera. If I see someone kicking a dog on a street I don't have to be an 'animal lover' to rush up and get them to stop. Now, that being said... I'm no longer vegan or even vegitarian, but not for lack of trying over the years. My parents are some of the most knowlegeble people around in regard to the non-animal protien diets, they've been practicing and teaching it for more than 40 years. They have had to concede that I can't possibly be healthy on a non-animal protien diet (trust me, it took a LONG time and a lot of illness for them to come to the conclusion I did 20 years ago) and some people simply need it. Ok, if you are a physical anomaly and you will die without meat, fair enough. If your parents were killing you with a diet, sheesh. I darn hope they took you to a nutritionist. Whenever this topic comes up you tell your story of how your parents nearly killed you with a vegan diet. I don't want to stray too far into evolution or anything, but truthfully we evolved being able to consume an extremely flexible diet - evidenced by the variety of diets around the globe. We can survive on a omnivorous, vegetarian and vegan but not totally carnivorous diet. And everywhere the plain truth is that the further you move towards a plant-based diet the healthier you will be. But fair enough if you sincerely believe it will kill you. If you want to eat meat, you will. Plain and simple. I am just saying that ethically I don't think it is right if you don't have to do it to survive. You and other anomalies need to do it to survive so that's that. Others however in my opinion that can minimise suffering should. I'm tired, really tired of justifying my PERSONAL eating habits to self-righteous veggieheads--at home, at church, on UM... I've been doing it for the last 20+ years. Get over it. i'm never going back to the diet that damn near killed me. You seem pretty drawn to these threads, so you must want or need to talk about it. I hope you don't wear leather shoes, belts, jackets, have leather furniture, or leather interior in your car... I hope none of your paint brushes or hair brushes are natural animal fiber, I hope you don't wear make up or use natural hair products that use animal by-products, if you have pets, you're feeding them a vegitarian diet right? Trust me, animal products are EVERYWHERE. They're almost impossible to avoid. It doesn't stop with food. Good luck. I must admit I am pretty hardcore with this stuff. Edited September 30, 2008 by Belle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belle. Posted September 30, 2008 #153 Share Posted September 30, 2008 We wouldn't have lovely leather jackets and shoes and sofas at affordable prices if no cows were eaten for food (then they'd just be slaughtered for their hide? Now that's wasteful). Ugggh. I have to say - murder for fashion - that does not float my boat. Who on earth needs 'lovely' leather anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whangarei Posted September 30, 2008 #154 Share Posted September 30, 2008 I've never understood why people who claim to love animals own pets. Its like Belle said, animals have their own thing going on. But for some reason it seems all the animal lovers who rail on about animal rights, own pets. Never made any sense to me at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belle. Posted September 30, 2008 #155 Share Posted September 30, 2008 I've never understood why people who claim to love animals own pets. Its like Belle said, animals have their own thing going on. But for some reason it seems all the animal lovers who rail on about animal rights, own pets. Never made any sense to me at all. Some of us share our homes with animals from being in rescue-type situations, where either they die or come home with us. I would never purchase one from a pet shop, breeder et cetera. We unfortunately tried to help an animal shelter that turned out to be an 'animal hoarder' situation. Now that was a really bad animal lov'n scenario . But yes, other animals have their own thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted September 30, 2008 #156 Share Posted September 30, 2008 (edited) Some of us share our homes with animals from being in rescue-type situations, where either they die or come home with us. I would never purchase one from a pet shop, breeder et cetera. We unfortunately tried to help an animal shelter that turned out to be an 'animal hoarder' situation. Now that was a really bad animal lov'n scenario . But yes, other animals have their own thing to do. i agree with whan.belle she .makes a valid point, and i concur to a large degree, such as in exotics and birds and snakes etc.... ... i also took in a little dog who was unwanted for a time and ended up passing him on to someone that is alone and this little dog makes all the difference in the world to him. and the dog.... cats do their own thing anyways its real hard to dictate a lifestyle to a cat....lol ... i think domesticated perhaps is not what she was meaning... how about those that have farms with pigs as pets etc... ...... its too broad of a canvas to generalize IMO.... Edited September 30, 2008 by Tangerine Sheri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katya Posted September 30, 2008 #157 Share Posted September 30, 2008 Oh my god. I read this on my father's birthday, and we went out to eat to celebrate. Sitting at the bar waiting for a table, he started talking about this and I was just "OH I KNOW. I HEARD ABOUT THAT LULZ. they're idiots." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whangarei Posted September 30, 2008 #158 Share Posted September 30, 2008 (edited) Some of us share our homes with animals from being in rescue-type situations, where either they die or come home with us. I would never purchase one from a pet shop, breeder et cetera. We unfortunately tried to help an animal shelter that turned out to be an 'animal hoarder' situation. Now that was a really bad animal lov'n scenario . But yes, other animals have their own thing to do. So you don't get anything out of owning the animal and keeping it? I'm sorry I adore people who stand up for animals. I have a lot of respect for vegetarians and vegans. But if you are going to argue that animals are doing their own thing I think you should stay completely out of it. I do know a few people that do the rescue deal but for the most part the vast majority of pet owners take a pet in for personal pleasure. Not for saving the animal. Its just always struck me as a hypocrisy. Yes Tangerine I'm talking about domesticating. I 'm not necessarily a fan of domestication but those who "treat animals right" as MissMel's said, being like Native Americans about it and respecting the need and the sacrifice that animals provide for humans. Those who take good care of pets also have my admiration. But 9 times out of 10 those people who will fly in your face about the rights of animals usually own a few. The sheer hypocrisy of this has never made any sense to me. Edited September 30, 2008 by Whangarei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belle. Posted September 30, 2008 #159 Share Posted September 30, 2008 (edited) So you don't get anything out of owning the animal and keeping it? I'm sorry I adore people who stand up for animals. I have a lot of respect for vegetarians and vegans. But if you are going to argue that animals are doing their own thing I think you should stay completely out of it. I do know a few people that do the rescue deal but for the most part the vast majority of pet owners take a pet in for personal pleasure. Not for saving the animal. Its just always struck me as a hypocrisy. No, if something is going to be killed or injured, through a humans mismanagement, I don't stay out of it. If an animal has been brought up in a humanised situation I won't just 'release it' to the wild (which some animal rights people do). That can be grossly irresponsible, for a massive number of reasons. Yes I enjoy their company, they are here now and are humanised and would die a painful death on the streets, for which they are ill-equipped. The staying out of it comes in opposition to the idea that all animals only have a purpose as designated by humans. A purpose for us. I don't think we should be breeding or keeping animals for our pleasure. You are right that some 'animals people' see this issue differently to me. If there were no animals in shelters, rescue situations I wouldn't have them. Full stop. Once you have interfered to such an extent that there are numerous human dependant individual beings which would die miserably if we simply released them, you share the burden of responsibility in ensuring that they live the rest of their life free from harm. I don't mind responsibility. Look and in the end, it's all about ourselves and what we identify as important or overarching life principles. I value kindness and compassion. Thoughfulness of others over not thinking at all. If I don't need to cause another being pain in order to survive, I don't. If I encourage others to consider that maybe they don't either, for me that's a good thing. But if others feel they really need to, they will. And if someone needs to as a complete emotional, physcial imperative - that is the way it will be. Why do you adore people who stand up for animals if you don't agree with it? Or do you just agree with parts of it? Edited October 1, 2008 by Belle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrigan Posted September 30, 2008 #160 Share Posted September 30, 2008 Everything kills in order to live and feed itself. Everything. Every species on earth. Whether it be killing a microbe, plant, insect, fish, bird or mammal...something has to give up its life so that another being may live. We are omnivores as a species, not vegetarians. We are at the top of the food chain. If vegans/vegetarians choose to omit a food source from their diet, then so be it. Their bodies, their choice. I don't. I embrace my omnivore status. This does not make me a bad or cruel person. It makes me a normal homo sapien. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hetrodoxly Posted October 1, 2008 #161 Share Posted October 1, 2008 i agree with whan.belle she .makes a valid point, and i concur to a large degree, such as in exotics and birds and snakes etc.... ... i also took in a little dog who was unwanted for a time and ended up passing him on to someone that is alone and this little dog makes all the difference in the world to him. and the dog.... cats do their own thing anyways its real hard to dictate a lifestyle to a cat....lol ... i think domesticated perhaps is not what she was meaning... Cat's are domesticated and surely if your an animal lover the last thing you'd do is allow a domesticated cat to roam free? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted October 1, 2008 #162 Share Posted October 1, 2008 No, if something is going to be killed or injured, through a humans mismanagement, I don't stay out of it. If an animal has been brought up in a humanised situation I won't just 'release it' to the wild (which some animal rights people do). That can be grossly irresponsible, for a massive number of reasons. Yes I enjoy their company, they are here now and are humanised and would die a painful death on the streets, for which they are ill-equipped. The staying out of it comes in opposition to the idea that all animals only have a purpose as designated by humans. A purpose for us. I don't think we should be breeding or keeping animals for our pleasure. You are right that some 'animals people' see this issue differently to me. If there were no animals in shelters, rescue situations I wouldn't have them. Full stop. Once you have interfered to such an extent that there are numerous human dependant individual beings which would die miserably if we simply released them, you share the burden of responsibility in ensuring that they live the rest of their life free from harm. I don't mind responsibility. Look and in the end, it's all about ourselves and what we identify as important or overarching life principles. I value kindness and compassion. Thoughfulness of others over not thinking at all. If I don't need to cause another being pain in order to survive, I don't. If I encourage others to consider that maybe they don't either, for me that's a good thing. But if others feel they really need to, they will. And if someone needs to as a complete emotional, physcial imperative - that is the way it will be. Why do you adore people who stand up for animals if you don't agree with it? Or do you just agree with parts of it? I concur Belle, if we humans have domesticated some of the animals it is our responsibility to care for them, open our homes to them and love them responsibly .........Probably one of the best things to do to inspire a respect and empathy for animals is to have them around as kids.... Many a child has learned how to care and cultivate love for something and respect for something that is different then them and littler then them in childhood... many a child has learned that our four legged and feathered friends are part of the cycle of life and very integral to the whole not less then therefore do what you want ........ when we are entrusted with sterwardship over our planet it means all of it from the eagle that flys the sky to the bee that pollinates ....... IMO @hetrodoxy, domesticated cats choose you to care for them lol and they also choose to spend time outdoors in their yard ...not all of them but some of them .i would respect the cats wishes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted October 1, 2008 #163 Share Posted October 1, 2008 (edited) Everything kills in order to live and feed itself. Everything. Every species on earth. Whether it be killing a microbe, plant, insect, fish, bird or mammal...something has to give up its life so that another being may live. We are omnivores as a species, not vegetarians. We are at the top of the food chain. If vegans/vegetarians choose to omit a food source from their diet, then so be it. Their bodies, their choice. I don't. I embrace my omnivore status. This does not make me a bad or cruel person. It makes me a normal homo sapien. to digest animal is very hard on the body and it would seem that it was not meant to be done alot, we can drink alcohol and we can smoke ciggartes but because we can doesn't mean this is natural. to the homosapien... .......also the health issues that we now face as a culture are in large part related to mass meat consumption.. what is "normal" common is defined by a culture its called conditioning and it has found its way to our dinner tables ...we could have as easily decided to be veggies. and have at various times in human history....... we now have the nutritional awareness that we do not need meat to survive, that in fact its not the optimum diet and when one is on a path to health usually doctors orders they tend to let go of or cut back on animal in the diet there is no mystery to this ....... but humans have different definitions of what healthy is which translates to acomodating their choices and preferences so the definition changes...... Edited October 1, 2008 by Tangerine Sheri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corp Posted October 1, 2008 #164 Share Posted October 1, 2008 With health issues being brought out thought I'd post this: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/HealthS...how/3480629.cms No matter what diet you're on seems there's going to be health risks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted October 1, 2008 #165 Share Posted October 1, 2008 (edited) With health issues being brought out thought I'd post this: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/HealthS...how/3480629.cms No matter what diet you're on seems there's going to be health risks as a culture few really understand nutrition so let me help out.... the article is selling vitamins preying on ignorance ......goggle is not a viable source of info..... "Yeast extracts are one of the few vegetarian foods which provide good levels of the vitamin. " per article that you posted .... it quoted this ....you posted an article which supported my posit and let me explain why...... It was thought or its been marketed that meat is a great source of b 12 and I concur its important to the diet b12 that is teehee........ . . We now know that the ability of the body to assimilate anything of nutritive value from animals is seriously compromised for a few reasons levels of toxins in the body antibiotics used on the animals that interfere with vitamin absorption.... and because of the way a cow gets b12 to begin with ( well doesn't in most cases) .. this is a very key point let me repeat a very key point....... it comes from the soil ( most cows are corn fed in factories ) and the soil is seriously depleted in b12 its not there....due to over production and chemicals ( so if you wonder why milk says fortified this is why , the capitalistic solution to lack of....... but the body absorbs better the closer to the tree the food as they say........) the wholer the food( nutritionally sound) the better...sort of like thinking whole oats vrs instant oats something along the way is compromised and its too often ones health..... so unless you are hunting your own food and the animal is grass fed chances are you aren't getting vitamin b 12 on a meat based diet...... it is well known that best source nowadays of all the b's including b12 is nutritional yeast its a staple of a veggies life...also veggies nowadays go to nutritionists or study nutrition themselves.... i hope this helps.... Edited October 2, 2008 by Tangerine Sheri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fylgja Posted October 1, 2008 #166 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Most of the people who suffer from b12 deficiency are alcoholics or those on long term use of proton pump inhibitors, not vegetarians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted October 1, 2008 #167 Share Posted October 1, 2008 (edited) Most of the people who suffer from b12 deficiency are alcoholics That's an outright lie. All anyone has to do is look up "causes of b12 deficiency" and none of the first 20 links say that...at the risk of sounding "rabid" to the overexcitable fylgja. Edited October 1, 2008 by Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Onyx~ Posted October 1, 2008 #168 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Marshmallow Mammaries? Breastmilk Bonanza? I could do this all freakin day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fylgja Posted October 1, 2008 #169 Share Posted October 1, 2008 (edited) That's an outright lie. All anyone has to do is look up "causes of b12 deficiency" and none of the first 20 links say that...at the risk of sounding "rabid" to the overexcitable fylgja. Get a grip. Browsing your google search engine hardly makes you an expert on these things. Seriously look at any information about B12 deficiency and it will say the same thing. Check medline plus: LINKProton pump inhibitors (PPIs) include omeprazole (Prilosec®, Losec®), lansoprazole (Prevacid®), rabeprazole (Aciphex®), pantoprazole (Protonix®, Pantoloc®), and esomeprazole. The reduced secretion of gastric acid and pepsin produced by PPIs can reduce absorption of protein-bound (dietary) vitamin B12, but not supplemental vitamin B12. Gastric acid is needed to release vitamin B12 from protein for absorption. Reduced vitamin B12 levels may be more common with PPIs than with H2-blockers, because they are more likely to produce achlorhydria (complete absence of gastric acid secretion). However, clinically significant vitamin B12 deficiency is unlikely, unless PPI therapy is prolonged (two years or more) or dietary vitamin intake is low. Vitamin B12 levels should be monitored in people taking high doses of PPIs for prolonged periods. It also says on medline plus, Excessive alcohol intake lasting longer than two weeks can decrease vitamin B12 absorption from the gastrointestinal tract. Edited October 1, 2008 by fylgja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted October 1, 2008 #170 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Get a grip. Browsing your google search engine hardly makes you an expert on these things. Seriously look at any information about B12 deficiency and it will say the same thing. Check medline plus: LINKProton pump inhibitors (PPIs) include omeprazole (Prilosec®, Losec®), lansoprazole (Prevacid®), rabeprazole (Aciphex®), pantoprazole (Protonix®, Pantoloc®), and esomeprazole. The reduced secretion of gastric acid and pepsin produced by PPIs can reduce absorption of protein-bound (dietary) vitamin B12, but not supplemental vitamin B12. Gastric acid is needed to release vitamin B12 from protein for absorption. Reduced vitamin B12 levels may be more common with PPIs than with H2-blockers, because they are more likely to produce achlorhydria (complete absence of gastric acid secretion). However, clinically significant vitamin B12 deficiency is unlikely, unless PPI therapy is prolonged (two years or more) or dietary vitamin intake is low. Vitamin B12 levels should be monitored in people taking high doses of PPIs for prolonged periods. It also says on medline plus, Excessive alcohol intake lasting longer than two weeks can decrease vitamin B12 absorption from the gastrointestinal tract. fylgja, my goodness you are so correct , i forgot about that.... it is a well know fact that excessive alcohol intake interferes with the bodies ability to absorb b12 and can lead to brain issues ..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted October 1, 2008 #171 Share Posted October 1, 2008 I didn't realize you were a doctor...that's a lot of hard work, congrats. That was just where I started my research when my elderly mother was diagnosed with b12 deficiency. The doctor was also a great source of information and NOWHERE did he or any of the paperwork he gave me to review say that MOST of the people with a b12 deficiency are alcoholics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted October 1, 2008 #172 Share Posted October 1, 2008 (edited) I didn't realize you were a doctor...that's a lot of hard work, congrats. That was just where I started my research when my elderly mother was diagnosed with b12 deficiency. The doctor was also a great source of information and NOWHERE did he or any of the paperwork he gave me to review say that MOST of the people with a b12 deficiency are alcoholics. Michelle, "Alcohol produces B12 and folate deficiency by various mechanisms such as malnutrition, gastritis leading to poor absorption and liver disease leading to impaired utilization." http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlere...i?artid=1444376 remember the liver stores b12 perhaps it didn't apply to your MIL so he gave you the material that did... alcohol can cause alot of damage to the organism, i dont know if you have access to modern medical articles but its well articulated that in excess it can be a problem to the body ability to absorb nutrients....( imo I think in little amounts so i dont drink but what one does with their bodies is on them....) Flgia has made a valid posit... Edited October 1, 2008 by Tangerine Sheri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatus1 Posted October 1, 2008 #173 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Members are reminded to refrain from personal attack, including snide commentry and accusations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corp Posted October 2, 2008 #174 Share Posted October 2, 2008 I didn't realize you were a doctor...that's a lot of hard work, congrats. That was just where I started my research when my elderly mother was diagnosed with b12 deficiency. The doctor was also a great source of information and NOWHERE did he or any of the paperwork he gave me to review say that MOST of the people with a b12 deficiency are alcoholics. Clearly your grandmother is a boozer And Tangerine I didn't get the article from google, I got it from another forum. Figure a university study would be worth something, even if every type of food is declared bad for you at least one every ten years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted October 2, 2008 #175 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Clearly your grandmother is a boozer Hey, I never said anyone in my family is a teatotler. I just don't happen to think something is true if you have to look so hard for evidence to back it up...duh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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