fylgja Posted October 2, 2008 #176 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Clearly your grandmother is a boozer And Tangerine I didn't get the article from google, I got it from another forum. Figure a university study would be worth something, even if every type of food is declared bad for you at least one every ten years Well, you need to learn how to understand and decipher the information you read. If you look at the actual study it shows vitamin b12 deficiency causes brain shrinkage, not a vegetarian diet. Most vegetarians are informed enough about their diets to take a suppliment, and eat fortified foods. Do you think they honestly need know-it-all's on a discussion forum to tell them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fylgja Posted October 2, 2008 #177 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Hey, I never said anyone in my family is a teatotler. I just don't happen to think something is true if you have to look so hard for evidence to back it up...duh. Who said anything about having to look very hard? It's on medline plus for anyone to read. If you were educated this information would already be common knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted October 2, 2008 #178 Share Posted October 2, 2008 (edited) Well, you need to learn how to understand and decipher the information you read. If you look at the actual study it shows vitamin b12 deficiency causes brain shrinkage, not a vegetarian diet. Most vegetarians are informed enough about their diets to take a suppliment, and eat fortified foods. Do you think they honestly need know-it-all's on a discussion forum to tell them? nevermind... Edited October 2, 2008 by Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted October 2, 2008 #179 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Who said anything about having to look very hard? It's on medline plus for anyone to read. If you were educated this information would already be common knowledge. Well, I can just tell my doctor I don't neeed him anymore because I can access you and medline. What were your credentials again...??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fylgja Posted October 2, 2008 #180 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Well, I can just tell my doctor I don't neeed him anymore because I can access you and medline. What were your credentials again...??? Aren't we contemptuous? How about I just send you my college transcripts? You were the one who called me a liar, and I proved I was not. I know this stuff for a reason. I can give you more sources of information, but what does it matter? You think you know everything already. Why would you bother to be here debating it with me if you were secure in your beliefs that eating meat is the best thing for you? I could just say I am defending the welfare of animals. What is your excuse/ Are you afraid someone will take your right to eat dead animals away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyHay Posted October 2, 2008 #181 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Actually, I read that page and alcohol and PPI's affect the body's ability to absorb B12. I have problems with my B12. My blood tests show I am always low. I have chronic fatigue and myofascial pain syndrome and fibromyalgia and this is also a common trait in us. The article also states: People at risk for vitamin B12 deficiency include strict vegetarians, elderly people, and people with increased vitamin B12 requirements associated with pregnancy, thyrotoxicosis, hemolytic anemia, hemorrhage, malignancy, liver or kidney disease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted October 2, 2008 #182 Share Posted October 2, 2008 (edited) Actually, I read that page and alcohol and PPI's affect the body's ability to absorb B12. I have problems with my B12. My blood tests show I am always low. I have chronic fatigue and myofascial pain syndrome and fibromyalgia and this is also a common trait in us. The article also states: be assured lady hay part of following a veggie diet involves educating yourself about it going to a nuitritionist, taking classes it is well understood that one needs to make sure they are getting the appropriate nutrients ... ..and not just the veggie anyone can be savvy in nutrition and should be ........ flygia makes a great point and I agree part of this lifestyle is education and keeping abreast of the changes in nutrition.. most don't until they read something on a forum ... . ..just go to whole foods buy yourself nutritional yeast its a couple dollars ..it contains all the b's including b12 see how it works for you let me know ....perhaps you will find your skin and har and nails are beautiful as well perhaps others will ask what are you doing to look so vibrant...........thats what we veggies do.... . Edited October 2, 2008 by Tangerine Sheri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted October 2, 2008 #183 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Hey, I never said anyone in my family is a teatotler. I just don't happen to think something is true if you have to look so hard for evidence to back it up...duh. Hmm michelle you said that you had articles and a doctor that claimed otherwise yet you have yet to post anything but ad hominen arguments.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted October 2, 2008 #184 Share Posted October 2, 2008 (edited) Hmm michelle you said that you had articles and a doctor that claimed otherwise yet you have yet to post anything but ad hominen arguments.. This is my last word on this matter...I...feel...like...I...need...to...SHOUT....it....because...of....the... lack...of...reading.....comprehension...or...speak...incredibly...slowly... I have not said anything derogatory about vegetarianism..........stop..........I have no doubt that alcoholism can cause b12 deficiency..........stop........I DID NOT make the claim that alcoholism is the number one reason for b12 deficiency.........stop.......I did not say that I had ON LINE articles that claimed otherwise.....stop.....I can not prove what the doctor told me any more than you could......stop.....If you look at the first 10 or 20 links you come to when you google "the causes of b12 deficiency" NOT ONE of them will say alcoholism is the NUMBER ONE REASON....stop.... It is UP TO THE PERSON that made the claim that alcoholism IS THE NUMBER ONE REASON for b12 deficiency to BACK UP that claim.....stop.....I DID NOT make that claim....stop..... If anyone has forgotten...........THAT was the ONLY and original bone of contention. Edited October 2, 2008 by Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fylgja Posted October 2, 2008 #185 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Actually, I read that page and alcohol and PPI's affect the body's ability to absorb B12. I have problems with my B12. My blood tests show I am always low. I have chronic fatigue and myofascial pain syndrome and fibromyalgia and this is also a common trait in us. Hey! That sucks about your B12. Does your doctor give you injections or are you able to keep on top of it with suppliments? I've read about myofacial pain. It is suppose to be extremely painful. Sucks that you have to go through that. I suffer from chronic daily headaches with severe cluster headaches over top of them. The neurologist thinks it is hemicrania continua because it responds to indocin, but the indocin is so hard on my stomach I can't take it. I have to take neurontin (morontin) every day to try and ward them off, but it hardly helps. The article also states: People at risk for vitamin B12 deficiency include strict vegetarians, elderly people, and people with increased vitamin B12 requirements associated with pregnancy, thyrotoxicosis, hemolytic anemia, hemorrhage, malignancy, liver or kidney disease. It is very rare for any vegetarian to get b12 deficiency in this modern age because all our food is fortified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fylgja Posted October 2, 2008 #186 Share Posted October 2, 2008 This is my last word on this matter...I...feel...like...I...need...to...SHOUT....it....because...of....the... lack...of...reading.....comprehension...or...speak...incredibly...slowly... I have not said anything derogatory about vegetarianism..........stop..........I have no doubt that alcoholism can cause b12 deficiency..........stop........I DID NOT make the claim that alcoholism is the number one reason for b12 deficiency.........stop.......I did not say that I had ON LINE articles that claimed otherwise.....stop.....I can not prove what the doctor told me any more than you could......stop.....If you look at the first 10 or 20 links you come to when you google "the causes of b12 deficiency" NOT ONE of them will say alcoholism is the NUMBER ONE REASON....stop.... It is UP TO THE PERSON that made the claim that alcoholism IS THE NUMBER ONE REASON for b12 deficiency to BACK UP that claim.....stop.....I DID NOT make that claim....stop..... If anyone has forgotten...........THAT was the ONLY and original bone of contention. Take a deep breath an calm down dear. I never said alocholism was the number one reason for b12 deficiency. I said that most cases of b12 deficiency are caused from alcoholism or long term use of PPI's. If it you want to be specific the number one cause of b12 deficiency is pernicious anemia. Can you guess what a major cause of pernicious anemia is? Alocholism and long term PPI use! Other causes include intestinal disorders and a sort of inherited autoimmune disorder of unknown origin that causes a loss of the parietal cells in the lining of the stomach. If this is the cause of your grandmother's b12 deficiency you should keep an eye out for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted October 2, 2008 #187 Share Posted October 2, 2008 (edited) That was just where I started my research when my ELDERLY MOTHER was diagnosed with b12 deficiency. Quote fylgja:"If this is the cause of your grandmother's b12 definiency you should keep an eye out for it." Thanks for the concern, but Mother passed away a couple of months ago after a very long illness at the ripe old age of eighty. Edited October 2, 2008 by Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravergirl Posted October 2, 2008 #188 Share Posted October 2, 2008 yes it may lower the suffering on cows. Cows don't carry AIDS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glorybebe Posted October 2, 2008 Author #189 Share Posted October 2, 2008 yes it may lower the suffering on cows. Cows don't carry AIDS. Excellent point, ravergirl. That is exactly why this woudl never fly. Women with HIV are told not to breast feed, and with the amount of people that the governments say don't even have a clue that they have HIV or AIDS, this is just a silly idea brought about by a silly organization. I wonder what it is about humans that a good idea is taken over by fanatics and they destroy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corp Posted October 2, 2008 #190 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Well, you need to learn how to understand and decipher the information you read. If you look at the actual study it shows vitamin b12 deficiency causes brain shrinkage, not a vegetarian diet. Most vegetarians are informed enough about their diets to take a suppliment, and eat fortified foods. Do you think they honestly need know-it-all's on a discussion forum to tell them? I did read the article and it clearly says that one of the causes of b12 deficiency is a vegetarian diet. Now did I say that vegetarians ignore their diet? No I didn't. Of course vegetarians would take suppliments, anyone who's going to cut out a major food group from their diet should. Did I claim to be an expert on nutrition, or have some kind of inside knowledge? No I didn't. I know very little about it aside from what I learned back in high school. If you reread my post you'll see that my only comment was that a vegetarian diet carries health risks, just like a regular diet of all food groups. Now the majority of people can deal with these risks, but the risks remain. That was my only purpose for posting the link. I'd take it as a kindness if you would stop putting words in my mouth. Man 13 pages...has this thread been derailed or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chelseasaurrx Posted October 2, 2008 #191 Share Posted October 2, 2008 (edited) But what is so disgusting about humans drinking human milk? I'm not getting the outrage. Do you condemn mothers who are feeding their babies milk, or is the 'yuk' factor in that it is an adult drinking the milk? When we get older, we start drinking cow milk for a reason. Cow milk has the nutrients we need as growing kids and adults, whereas breast milk has the nutrients needed for growing babies. It would be like a grown adult eating baby food everyday. On another note aside from that quote... You know how Ben & Jerry's has cows on the front of their containers? Well, if/when they switch over to human breast milk, are they going to put a woman's breast on the front instead of a cow? Just a thought, haha. Edited October 2, 2008 by chelseasaurrx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted October 2, 2008 #192 Share Posted October 2, 2008 This is my last word on this matter...I...feel...like...I...need...to...SHOUT....it....because...of....the... lack...of...reading.....comprehension...or...speak...incredibly...slowly... I have not said anything derogatory about vegetarianism..........stop..........I have no doubt that alcoholism can cause b12 deficiency..........stop........I DID NOT make the claim that alcoholism is the number one reason for b12 deficiency.........stop.......I did not say that I had ON LINE articles that claimed otherwise.....stop.....I can not prove what the doctor told me any more than you could......stop.....If you look at the first 10 or 20 links you come to when you google "the causes of b12 deficiency" NOT ONE of them will say alcoholism is the NUMBER ONE REASON....stop.... It is UP TO THE PERSON that made the claim that alcoholism IS THE NUMBER ONE REASON for b12 deficiency to BACK UP that claim.....stop.....I DID NOT make that claim....stop..... If anyone has forgotten...........THAT was the ONLY and original bone of contention. Michelle quotes: "That was just where I started my research when my elderly mother was diagnosed with b12 deficiency. The "doctor" was also a great source of information and "NOWHERE" did he or any of the paperwork he gave me to review say that MOST of the people with a b12 deficiency are alcoholics." its your error Michelle.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted October 2, 2008 #193 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Michelle quotes: "That was just where I started my research when my elderly mother was diagnosed with b12 deficiency. The "doctor" was also a great source of information and "NOWHERE" did he or any of the paperwork he gave me to review say that MOST of the people with a b12 deficiency are alcoholics." its your error Michelle.. I would ask you to clarify exacly what my error was, but to be honest, I really don't care. I've got too much on my mind to worry about what some faceless person on the internet thinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hetrodoxly Posted October 2, 2008 #194 Share Posted October 2, 2008 (edited) What causes this type of anaemia? Not eating enough foods that contain vitamin B12. A vegetarian or vegan diet can cause deficiency because vitamin B12 is only found in foods of animal origin, such as meat, fish, eggs and milk. Inability of the small intestine to absorb vitamin B12. The stomach produces a substance called intrinsic factor to absorb vitamin B12 from food. In the UK, the most common cause of B12 deficiency is a lack of intrinsic factor. So you veggies would die in the natural world, without labs to make your food? Edited October 2, 2008 by hetrodoxly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyHay Posted October 2, 2008 #195 Share Posted October 2, 2008 be assured lady hay part of following a veggie diet involves educating yourself about it going to a nuitritionist, taking classes it is well understood that one needs to make sure they are getting the appropriate nutrients ... ..and not just the veggie anyone can be savvy in nutrition and should be ........ flygia makes a great point and I agree part of this lifestyle is education and keeping abreast of the changes in nutrition.. most don't until they read something on a forum ... . ..just go to whole foods buy yourself nutritional yeast its a couple dollars ..it contains all the b's including b12 see how it works for you let me know ....perhaps you will find your skin and har and nails are beautiful as well perhaps others will ask what are you doing to look so vibrant...........thats what we veggies do.... . Hey thanks for the tips. I eat a good diet, which includes some meat - usually chicken. It just that the B12 is something shown to lack in patients such as us. I also have a yeast problem. Gets into my stomach occasionally and I get bloating and sluggish digestion - so then I take probiotics and nystatin. Thanks though. I'll check with my doc about the yeast supplements. He's great in that he supports proven natural treatments as well as well as traditional medicine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyHay Posted October 2, 2008 #196 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Hey! That sucks about your B12. Does your doctor give you injections or are you able to keep on top of it with suppliments? I've read about myofacial pain. It is suppose to be extremely painful. Sucks that you have to go through that. I suffer from chronic daily headaches with severe cluster headaches over top of them. The neurologist thinks it is hemicrania continua because it responds to indocin, but the indocin is so hard on my stomach I can't take it. I have to take neurontin (morontin) every day to try and ward them off, but it hardly helps. It is very rare for any vegetarian to get b12 deficiency in this modern age because all our food is fortified. Yes, I get regular B 12 shots. The myofascial problem is very painful. I am back at yoga because I need to move. Oh I know a teeny bit about your condition, which sounds just awful! I've had two migraines in my life. UGH. I couldn't imagine getting regular ones! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyHay Posted October 2, 2008 #197 Share Posted October 2, 2008 (edited) Excellent point, ravergirl. That is exactly why this woudl never fly. Women with HIV are told not to breast feed, and with the amount of people that the governments say don't even have a clue that they have HIV or AIDS, this is just a silly idea brought about by a silly organization. I wonder what it is about humans that a good idea is taken over by fanatics and they destroy it. That's what I said in the early stages of this long thread. lol We don't go around exposing ourselves to other human's bodily fluids for a reason. This would have to be strictly regulated and I don't see how I could trust that it was adequately done so. Not that I relish drinking another woman's breast milk in the first place. Sorry for adding three separate posts to answer all of these. I don't know which function to use to quote and answer three separate posts. Edited October 2, 2008 by LadyHay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fylgja Posted October 2, 2008 #198 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Yes, I get regular B 12 shots. The myofascial problem is very painful. I am back at yoga because I need to move. Oh I know a teeny bit about your condition, which sounds just awful! I've had two migraines in my life. UGH. I couldn't imagine getting regular ones! Does yoga help? I used to do yoga all the time, but since i got hypothyroid my carpel tunnel is so bad I have been unable to do it for awhile. I'm actually thinking of trying acupuncture. I'm a little scared of it though. I never tried any alternative medicine like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyHay Posted October 2, 2008 #199 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Does yoga help? I used to do yoga all the time, but since i got hypothyroid my carpel tunnel is so bad I have been unable to do it for awhile. I'm actually thinking of trying acupuncture. I'm a little scared of it though. I never tried any alternative medicine like that. Sent you a PM so we don't further derail this, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted October 2, 2008 #200 Share Posted October 2, 2008 (edited) Hey thanks for the tips. I eat a good diet, which includes some meat - usually chicken. It just that the B12 is something shown to lack in patients such as us. I also have a yeast problem. Gets into my stomach occasionally and I get bloating and sluggish digestion - so then I take probiotics and nystatin. Thanks though. I'll check with my doc about the yeast supplements. He's great in that he supports proven natural treatments as well as well as traditional medicine. its not really a supplement its powdery and it has sort of a cheesy taste , you just sprinkle it on a salad or what ever you want .....most definitely check with your doc...i am sorry to hear you have issues.... since you ladies are talking about yoga have you heard of bikram yoga its done in 105 degree temperature it is used as a health preventative and to correct imbalances in the body etc.......I can't back it up with science but if you ever get a chance check it out it and let me know what you think ... It corrected a knee issue i had for a long time, shoulder issues after the first time gone and it detoxifies the organism so it can absorb nutrients and I hear so many stories of people with back problems how its helped, i also had some pain in my right hand and its gone now.... not to mention the weight loss its unbelievable how many come in chubby and in no time are thinned down but not a unhealthy skinny but it seems to bring out the beauty in ones body..... . you want to hear something really weird is my cats beg for the stuff so i put it on their food ... I think the b12 lack seems to be more of an issue with meat eaters I think its because the cow is corn fed and b12 comes from the soil( soil that is allowed to regenerate) which most isn't ) also that is how the animals get it in the first place..... I know alot of veggies no one I know is anemic ironically.....not to say there isn't some... so lady hay the meat is not helping then?? do you go to a nutritionist??? Edited October 2, 2008 by Tangerine Sheri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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