Song causes suicide?

[Vampwitchenstein]

Hope it's ok to post Lightning?...

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^{extracts only;}

Concern mounts over rising troop suicides:

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Every day, five U.S. soldiers try to kill themselves. Before the Iraq war began, that figure was less than one suicide attempt a day.

The dramatic increase is revealed in new U.S. Army figures, which show 2,100 soldiers tried to commit suicide in 2007.

"Suicide attempts are rising and have risen over the last five years," said Col. Elspeth Cameron-Ritchie, an Army psychiatrist.

According to Army statistics, the incidence of U.S. Army soldiers attempting suicide or inflicting injuries on themselves has skyrocketed in the nearly five years since the start of the Iraq war.

The figures also show the number of suicides by active-duty troops in 2007 may reach an all-time high when the statistics are finalized in March, Army officials said.

cnn.com/2008/US/02/01/military.suicides

This is horrible, tragic and unacceptable! These amazing people in our Military need and DESERVE better! MUCH better!

I have a Dear Friend who does work with returned Iraqi troops who suffer from PTSD, not enough is being done let alone this problem being acknowledged correctly and seriously!

[morrigan]

although songs dont exacly make you do things,they CAN influence people. i dont see why a musicain would put "kill yourself" lyrics in,the point is what exactly? i do think songs help sway peoples decisions sometimes,imo for example,as i said before i was close to doing it once,then i met my now fiancee,i started listening to diff stuff that she likes too and i do think it helped listening to happy stuff insted of he stuff i was listening to before. i personallyhate hard rock...it makes me want to destroy something,lol certain songs can turn you from happy to deppressed.

Seems like your suicidal tendancies were improved by meeting a person who improved your outlook on life and your self esteem to me. You honestly believe that changing your music had more of an effect on you than just bringing a positive person into your life did? Amazing. Since you state categorically that you hate hard rock music, I will assume that you have not actually listened to the songs in question, and therefore are speaking from an uninformed viewpoint. I have...many times over.

I was once very depressed and borderline suicidal as well. Listening to songs written by artists who had felt the same way that I did made me feel less alone in the world. Like someone else out there knew what I was feeling, and that if they could get past it, then I could as well. Since people aren't offing themselves by the millions after listening to these songs (yes, these albums sell millions of copies worldwide), then I can deduce that the overwhelming majority of the depressed listeners come to the same conclusions that I do.

Look, if I march around town, neighborhood through neighborhood, eight or ten hours a day, week after week or month after month or year after your, exhorting people that: "Your life is entirely worthless. And it's going to get worse and worse the longer you live. There is absolutely no hope for you. Your family and friends will be one hell of a lot better off without you,"

does anybody doubt that the area suicide rate will go up, at least slightly?

Now I am probably doing nothing the least bit illegal (in the United States, at any rate). But shouldn't I accept at least some moral responsibility for my actions?

You would more than likely be taken in for psychiatric evaluation if you were to do such a ridiculous thing. No, the suicide rate would not go up. Since you keep going on and on about the whole "killyourself" routine, I will assume that you have not listened to the songs in question either. If you have, it seems as though you lack the perspective to understand that misery loves company. Many depressed people take comfort in knowing that others have felt the same way that they do and that they are not alone.

No. You are not "morally responsible" for another person's decision to commit suicide unless they told you that they were planning on killing themselves and you personally gave them the means to carry out the act. You seem to be laboring under the impression that people who kill themselves need some sort of encouragement. They don't. A person can just as easily commit suicide listening to John Denver as they can listening to Ozzy Osbourne. The decision to kill yourself is in direct opposition to the instinctive drive to survive. It cannot be swayed by something as trivial as a song. Do you honestly believe that if Suicide Solution or any of the other songs that mention suicide had never been written, that those who chose to take their lives after listening to them would still be alive today? If you do, then you are swallowing the media hype/blame game routine hook, line and sinker.

[morrigan]

No.

You'd also have counter-protesters out there right behind you saying the opposite.

And BlindMessiah and a couple of others right there making sure your freedom of speech was upheld.

If somebody had nothing else to do with their life but sit and gaze out their window listening to you say that and it actually influenced them, the point is they were having those thoughts before hand most likely.

Answer to your question(s), just my opinion is No. The suicide rate wouldn't go up even slightly. Those who are going to do it will anyway, and No, you don't have a moral responsibility for those actions. Now, it's a completely different story if you start selling guns to suicidal ppl or help them tie a proper noose or tell them how to buy cyanide online, or push them when they're on a ledge.

And a song that just said 'killyourelfkillyourselfkillyourself' sounds either horribly boring to listen to humorous.

I do not agree that songs can 'turn' you from one mood to another but they can certainly influence your mood for a short time and if a person was to be swayed (that they're in that delicate a frame of mind anyway) then it could be done just as easily by a comment from someone, a TV show, a billboard, even reading the Bible or strolling through an art museum. Someone that fragile could just be 'looking for a sign'. Music is a very powerful thing, but it's not that powerful. If someone is sitting in their room listening to 'dark' music hour after hour, a HUMAN should be very aware of this and be concerned enough to act.

You make excellent points as well.

[Vampwitchenstein]

You make excellent points as well.

And Thank You Kindly!

(pssst! I used to listen to John Denver as a child, my Parent's liked him....I think that's when my thoughts of suicide actually began...)

^kidding, ppl, kidding.

Or am I...?

[War Eagle]

This is horrible, tragic and unacceptable! These amazing people in our Military need and DESERVE better! MUCH better!

I have a Dear Friend who does work with returned Iraqi troops who suffer from PTSD, not enough is being done let alone this problem being acknowledged correctly and seriously!

You know something is seriously screwed up when that same system 'that you supposedly at war for' fails to protect those same fighting men & women of their country when reading how they're being treated on their return home...

From the earlier link:

Concern Mounts Over Rising Troop Suicides.

February 3, 2008 -- Updated 1334 GMT (2134 HKT)

"As my family was preparing for a 2005 Thanksgiving meal, our son Timothy was lying on the floor, slowly bleeding to death from a self-inflicted gunshot wound," said his father, Mike Bowman, in testimony to a House Veterans' Affairs committee hearing in December. "His war was now over."

advertisement

He said veterans return home to find an "understaffed, under-funded, under-equipped" Veterans Affairs mental health system.

"Many just give up trying," he said

Edited October 1, 2008 by REBEL

[OldTimeRadio]

Blondigiest, here's a man sitting on a downtown window ledge, threatening to jump, with police, social workers and clergy attempting to coax him back inside the building. A passer-by starts screaming at the man to jump. He does. Then the cops arrest that passer-by and charge him with a crime. He's convicted and goes to prison for 10 years.

Why? Hadn't the suicidal man already made his decision?

[Vampwitchenstein]

Blondigiest, here's a man sitting on a downtown window ledge, threatening to jump, with police, social workers and clergy attempting to coax him back inside the building. A passer-by starts screaming at the man to jump. He does. Then the cops arrest that passer-by and charge him with a crime. He's convicted and goes to prison for 10 years.

Why? Hadn't the suicidal man already made his decision?

Link?

Or is this a hypothetical story?

What was the charge/crime?

I can see how under certain circumstances the authorities would charge the idiot screaming 'jump' with something.

But lets start with the facts of this case...which are...?

[morrigan]

Blondigiest, here's a man sitting on a downtown window ledge, threatening to jump, with police, social workers and clergy attempting to coax him back inside the building. A passer-by starts screaming at the man to jump. He does. Then the cops arrest that passer-by and charge him with a crime. He's convicted and goes to prison for 10 years.

Why? Hadn't the suicidal man already made his decision?

I would also like a link to an instance where this actually happened. Until then, I consider it a fictitious scenario and not really relevent to the matter at hand. You are using "what if" scenarios to justify an opinion while I am basing mine on personal experience and facts. The fact is that suicidal people will kill themselves without ever having listened to a depressing song or having read a depressing poem. If you care to refute my claims with actual facts, I will gladly revisit my viewpoint.

Out of curiousity, have you ever considered suicide? Been diagnosed with clinical depression or bipolar disorder? Ever known anyone who actually followed through on a suicide attempt? Of course you are free to ignore my questions and not answer, but I'm curious what your level of involvement is with the matter at hand.

I guess based on your opinion, you would also suggest that the producers of all movies and TV shows that contain references to or images of suicide to be morally responsible as well? How about news broadcasts? Newspapers? Magazines? Books? The internet? Do you feel the OP of this thread should feel morally responsible if somewhere down the line, someone who read this thread and listened to the original song committed suicide? Pretty slippery slope of blame wouldn't you say?

[OldTimeRadio]

I would also like a link to an instance where this actually happened. Until then, I consider it a fictitious scenario and not really relevent to the matter at hand. You are using "what if" scenarios to justify an opinion while I am basing mine on personal experience and facts. The fact is that suicidal people will kill themselves without ever having listened to a depressing song or having read a depressing poem. If you care to refute my claims with actual facts, I will gladly revisit my viewpoint.

Out of curiousity, have you ever considered suicide? Been diagnosed with clinical depression or bipolar disorder? Ever known anyone who actually followed through on a suicide attempt? Of course you are free to ignore my questions and not answer, but I'm curious what your level of involvement is with the matter at hand.

I guess based on your opinion, you would also suggest that the producers of all movies and TV shows that contain references to or images of suicide to be morally responsible as well? How about news broadcasts? Newspapers? Magazines? Books? The internet? Do you feel the OP of this thread should feel morally responsible if somewhere down the line, someone who read this thread and listened to the original song committed suicide? Pretty slippery slope of blame wouldn't you say?

[OldTimeRadio]

I confess that I can't provide a link, for the simple reason that I don't save and document every newspaper story I read, and I highly doubt that anyone else does either.

But it is hardly "fictitious," unless late 20th Century American newspaper published as much fiction as they did in the 19th.

I don't remember the specific charge, but it was most likely some form of "interference with police work....resulting in death."

P. S. There have also been cases of CROWDS urging the suicide. Around 25 years ago that spectacle resulted in a spate of finger-waving magazine articles, newspaper editorials and church and media sermons.

[Kissmet]

I actually know the remake of Sarah Mclachlan , story sounds eerie , so did the original version but no I'm still alive.

[OldTimeRadio]

Out of curiousity, have you ever considered suicide? Been diagnosed with clinical depression or bipolar disorder? Ever known anyone who actually followed through on a suicide attempt? Of course you are free to ignore my questions and not answer, but I'm curious what your level of involvement is with the matter at hand.

Whoops! Forgot to answer your other questions!

No, I've never considered suicide, at least not with any serious intent. But that in itself is fairly atypical, since I do suffer from Clinical Depression. But my response to depression is to curl up like a pill-bug and "wait it out."

Yes, I have known people who've committed suicide. But who hasn't?. And let me add that I also lead a fairly large OCD and Depression support group which draws members from sections of three American states.

I guess based on your opinion, you would also suggest that the producers of all movies and TV shows that contain references to or images of suicide to be morally responsible as well?

Of course not. That would be like equating the reading a history of Nazi Germany with marching about the streets, waving a swastika flag and preaching Nazism!

Movies and magazine articles concerning suicide don't normally hit their viewers/readers with a litany of "killyourselfkillyourselfkillyourself."

That's quite a difference!

Edited October 2, 2008 by OldTimeRadio

[morrigan]

I confess that I can't provide a link, for the simple reason that I don't save and document every newspaper story I read, and I highly doubt that anyone else does either.

But it is hardly "fictitious," unless late 20th Century American newspaper published as much fiction as they did in the 19th.

I don't remember the specific charge, but it was most likely some form of "interference with police work....resulting in death."

P. S. There have also been cases of CROWDS urging the suicide. Around 25 years ago that spectacle resulted in a spate of finger-waving magazine articles, newspaper editorials and church and media sermons.

That's fine. I will look for a reference myself. What newspaper was the article printed in? What year/month?

I will refrain from commenting on whether or not I believe newspapers knowingly print false information because it is not relevant to the discussion. I will also refrain from further comment about the finger waving magazine articles as I have already made my views on the media hype/blame game known.

[morrigan]

Whoops! Forgot to answer your other questions!

No, I've never considered suicide, at least not with any serious intent. But that in itself is fairly atypical, since I do suffer from Clinical Depression. But my response to depression is to curl up like a pill-bug and "wait it out."

Yes, I have known people who've committed suicide. But who hasn't?. And let me add that I also lead a fairly large OCD and Depression support group which draws members from sections of three American states.

Of course not. That would be like equating the reading a history of Nazi Germany with marching about the streets, waving a swastika flag and preaching Nazism!

Movies and magazine articles concerning suicide don't normally hit their viewers/readers with a litany of "killyourselfkillyourselfkillyourself."

That's quite a difference!

Ah, so you still haven't actually listened to the songs in question. I see. I know, I know...no need to hear it for yourself right? It's always easier to believe what you are told.

[Vampwitchenstein]

Shaun Dykes, 17, plunged from the top of a city centre car park after police negotiators spent three hours trying to talk him down.

A 300-strong crowd of had gathered underneath, with a few shouting abuse at him and urging him to jump. One teenager even yelled: "How far can you bounce?"

Eventually Shaun leapt 60 feet onto the pavement below, dying instantly.

Police said none of those who were shouting at him were actually committing an offence.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/310...ying-crowd.html

This is the U.K. Obviously laws are different. I'm still Googling.

[OldTimeRadio]

It would most likely have been in THE CINCINNATI ENQUIRER or THE CINCINNATI POST. The POST went belly-up at the start of this year but I understand that former staffers keep the website in operation.

My memory suggests 1980-1992, since I remember discussing the material with a girlfriend I had at that time.

However, during 1988-1990 I worked in a book store which carried the New York Times daily and Sunday newspapers from across the country. After the papers were stripped (that is, the main logo clipped for return and credit0, I'd take the news sections home to read. (We also did the Sunday LONDON TIMES and THE GUARDIAN, although those came in several days late.)

[Vampwitchenstein]

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/36928_jump29.shtml

Commuters' mood turns ugly as suicide try snarls I-5 traffic

Wednesday, August 29, 2001 (note date)

Passing motorists, Metro bus passengers and truck drivers hurled insults and urged a distraught woman to jump from her perch on the railing of the Interstate 5 Ship Canal Bridge Tuesday morning.

Police rushed to the scene to try to talk the 26-year-old Tacoma-area woman out of attempting suicide. But as the region's busiest freeway disintegrated into a massive traffic jam, the mood of some commuters grew ugly.

"People were yelling, 'Jump, b****, jump!'" Seattle Police Department spokesman Clem Benton said. "Now who wants to hear that in this type of a situation?"

One Seattle radio station appeared to poke fun at the woman's predicament, peppering its live broadcast with splashdown sound effects...

The woman finally jumped, taking a 160-foot plunge into Lake Union

Sgt. L.J. Eddy of the Crisis Intervention Team said it is not uncommon for people to urge someone threatening suicide in a public place to go through with it.

"Almost any time there's an opportunity for the public to yell, they'll do it," said Eddy, who was on the bridge yesterday.

"It's not the majority of people, but there's always one or two who seem to do it."

End quite from source.

There was absolutely NO mention of any legal action involving anyone who yelled for the Woman to jump.

Still looking...

Here's the Wikipedia link on the subject of suicide jumpers...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumper_(suicide)

[OldTimeRadio]

It is nearly impossible to convict crowds of anything.

[Vampwitchenstein]

It is nearly impossible to convict crowds of anything.

It mentioned no individual arrests. Both incidents had a lot of media and passerby coverage, pictures, cell phones, etc. If there were a law the police would have been obligated to seize whatever they could and track ppl down.

I'm thinking if someone was arrested and got 10 years just for yelling to a jumper, there's a lot more to that story than just that. Otherwise all these idiots who stand around (on camera no less) watching people get mugged and beat up or worse and do nothing but stare or walk away, should be doing some hard time along with the suicide baiter(s).

Anywho, back on the original topic of the song; the one (video) shown is NOT the original. It is also a remake; sung by Diamanda Galas.

This is the original in it's original Hungarian;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAzJ_7CeWbc

Edit: punctuation & stuff.

Edited October 3, 2008 by Blondigeist

[Rosewin]

Songs nor mothers on myspace make people commit suicide. People commit suicide because they are in deep depression or in a sudden panic. Someone earlier mentioned the song Mad World. It should be noted that that song was originally recorded by Tears for Fears in the '80s.

Three of my favorite suicide songs:

Metallica - Fade to Black

M.A.S.H. Theme Song - Suicide Is Painless

[morrigan]

Songs nor mothers on myspace make people commit suicide. People commit suicide because they are in deep depression or in a sudden panic. Someone earlier mentioned the song Mad World. It should be noted that that song was originally recorded by Tears for Fears in the '80s.

Three of my favorite suicide songs:

Metallica - Fade to Black

M.A.S.H. Theme Song - Suicide Is Painless

Fade to Black is a favorite of mine as well. Thanks for another logical viewpoint!

[morrigan]

It would most likely have been in THE CINCINNATI ENQUIRER or THE CINCINNATI POST. The POST went belly-up at the start of this year but I understand that former staffers keep the website in operation.

My memory suggests 1980-1992, since I remember discussing the material with a girlfriend I had at that time.

However, during 1988-1990 I worked in a book store which carried the New York Times daily and Sunday newspapers from across the country. After the papers were stripped (that is, the main logo clipped for return and credit0, I'd take the news sections home to read. (We also did the Sunday LONDON TIMES and THE GUARDIAN, although those came in several days late.)

Ok. So you've narrowed it down to one of...wait...how many newspapers was it again? You worked in a book store that carried numerous papers from all across the country, and the best time frame you can give me is a 12 year span? Good grief. I have neither the time, interest, nor inclination to perform a search of this scale. Since your claim of this arrest and subsequent incarceration is so vague in nature, and since Blondigeist has produced evidence that contradicts your claim, I am left with no choice but to discard it.

It seems that you are intent on taking an uneducated standpoint. You have never been suicidal so you have no personal reference point, you clearly haven't listened to the songs in question, and your claims are backed up with what appears to be purely hypothetical scenarios and media hype. If you care to actually listen to the songs, or even simply read the lyrics, and then contend that they say "killyourself" or are actively encouraging suicide in any way, I will happily continue this debate with you.

[Vampwitchenstein]

Ok. So you've narrowed it down to one of...wait...how many newspapers was it again? You worked in a book store that carried numerous papers from all across the country, and the best time frame you can give me is a 12 year span? Good grief. I have neither the time, interest, nor inclination to perform a search of this scale. Since your claim of this arrest and subsequent incarceration is so vague in nature, and since Blondigeist has produced evidence that contradicts your claim, I am left with no choice but to discard it.

It seems that you are intent on taking an uneducated standpoint. You have never been suicidal so you have no personal reference point, you clearly haven't listened to the songs in question, and your claims are backed up with what appears to be purely hypothetical scenarios and media hype. If you care to actually listen to the songs, or even simply read the lyrics, and then contend that they say "killyourself" or are actively encouraging suicide in any way, I will happily continue this debate with you.

This is why I just dropped it after pretty much emphasizing my (our) point(s) and refuting OTR's. It's kinda off topic anyway, but it was an interesting discussion. IF something like that did happen (w/ an arrest and jail time involved, btw, that's a helluvalotta jail time for yelling 'jump'!) there had to be more to the story/arrest. Some other crime committed.

I searched Google twice for a couple hours each try...nothing. I even resorted to this:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/?qid=20081001230932AA87mIf

Lol!

I will keep looking on my 'nothing else to do' time, it's an interesting idea.

[sarah snow]

I LOVE the original- never heard it before so thanks for posting about it, looking forward to reading around the subject now. The song is just so beautiful, there is something very seductive about something so melodic but melancholy. Black and white pictures just are by their nature sometimes haunting, just because they capture something almost tangible but long dead. As for the song causing suicide? Nope, that's an individual choice although as mentioned altering a frame of mind may have some bearing.

That song was depressing, but the black & white video/picture made it creepier! The most depressing song I've heard is Gary Jules: Mad World, from Donnie Darko.

Funny isn't it that the original of 'Mad World' was actually quite upbeat- remember dancing to it in an 80s disco when it first came out (showing my age now ).

[OldTimeRadio]

Ok. So you've narrowed it down to one of...wait...how many newspapers was it again? You worked in a book store that carried numerous papers from all across the country, and the best time frame you can give me is a 12 year span? Good grief. I have neither the time, interest, nor inclination to perform a search of this scale. Since your claim of this arrest and subsequent incarceration is so vague in nature, and since Blondigeist has produced evidence that contradicts your claim, I am left with no choice but to discard it.

My sincere apologies for reading more newspapers than you deem proper.

"You have never been suicidal so you have no personal reference point...."

Precisely where is it written that only people who are suicidal are allowed to have any interest in the problem of suicide?

For what it's worth I have had close and dear friends who have committed suicide and I still miss them every blasted day.