John McCain 'undermining' bail-out

[Karlis]

I asked a serious question...what specifically did he do to help? "leadership" isnt an answer as too many people on the actual committee (that could really do something of substance)have already said that they simply needed to take several hours away from negotiations in order to deal with the mccain visit and photo op.

So I ask you again and would love for you to give a specific answer. What did mccain specifically do in Washington that helped the situation? No one seems to be able to give a specific answer, not even his own people...simply campaign bs answers that seem to go opposite of what the folks on the committee felt.

It seems specifics can never be nailed down with mccain or palin...only generalities...

So po, are you up to the task?

HiFluffybunny -- A couple of posts after this one, your answer there would seem to negate what I am posting below. Anyway, this is what I thought: am I wrong?

McCain can propose an alternate solution to the bail-out, if he is there in person.

The situation could depend on only a margin of a few votes;

McCain’s vote could be the crucial one for implementing the final proposal.

What do you say?

Karlis

[questionmark]

HiFluffybunny -- A couple of posts after this one, your answer there would seem to negate what I am posting below. Anyway, this is what I thought: am I wrong?

McCain can propose an alternate solution to the bail-out, if he is there in person.

The situation could depend on only a margin of a few votes;

McCain’s vote could be the crucial one for implementing the final proposal.

What do you say?

Karlis

If I may pipe in: he did not, and if this is about leadership he should have instead of theatrically interrupting his campaign to cause a traffic jam in DC.

[SoCrazes]

If we use this as an analogy for world politics, since when is the American President ever on "the right committee" when it comes to world affairs?!

How many other-country ministries or councils does the American President sit on?

Are you asserting that both candidates are "losers" because they didn't get the job done regarding the "bailout" of financial institutions that can't do finance?

[SoCrazes]

If we use this as an analogy for world politics, since when is the American President ever on "the right committee" when it comes to world affairs?!

How many other-country ministries or councils does the American President sit on?

Legislatures sit on committees and sub committees. U.S. Presidents do not.

[MasterPo]

Are you asserting that both candidates are "losers" because they didn't get the job done regarding the "bailout" of financial institutions that can't do finance?

Both you and the Fluffster miss the whole point.

For months Obama has been running as the man of "change", that he personally was the one and only candidate that could bring people together like never before. He and his supporters constantly touted his great community organization and leadership skills, he's great ability to cross dividing lines and bring opposing sides together, heal wounds for the betterment of all.

This was his chance to prove all this is true and not just campaign fluff.

And he failed.

McCain isn't running as a candidate of change the way Obama is. No one is saying McCain can and will heal wounds, organize communities etc. That was Obama's tag line.

So he was called on it and blew it big time! He talked the talk but failed to walk the walk.

And you're going to let him off the hook because of committee. If he were President he still wouldn't be sitting on the committee so how would that have changed anything? If you're saying that only people on the comittee can come up with an agreement that's a get-out-of-jail-free card for Obama in all cases. A cheap out to the great saviour of America.

But of course, Democrats and liberals don't have to do what they say, just say it is good enough.

[SoCrazes]

Both you and the Fluffster miss the whole point.

For months Obama has been running as the man of "change", that he personally was the one and only candidate that could bring people together like never before. He and his supporters constantly touted his great community organization and leadership skills, he's great ability to cross dividing lines and bring opposing sides together, heal wounds for the betterment of all.

This was his chance to prove all this is true and not just campaign fluff.

And he failed.

McCain isn't running as a candidate of change the way Obama is. No one is saying McCain can and will heal wounds, organize communities etc. That was Obama's tag line.

So he was called on it and blew it big time! He talked the talk but failed to walk the walk.

And you're going to let him off the hook because of committee. If he were President he still wouldn't be sitting on the committee so how would that have changed anything? If you're saying that only people on the comittee can come up with an agreement that's a get-out-of-jail-free card for Obama in all cases. A cheap out to the great saviour of America.

But of course, Democrats and liberals don't have to do what they say, just say it is good enough.

It is obvious that when you try to promote the republican party you can only sling mud at the dems. Reminds me of a person that takes no responsibility and tries to point the finger elsewhere for blame of their mistakes. Using your line of thinking and tactics: McCain did suspend his campaign to attempt to get this bailout finalized. McCain is the one that asserts that he crosses party lines to get things done. McCain also claims he is the person that can fix the woes of "America." It was McCain's party that brought the deal to a halt...couldn't he finess his own cohorts or is he just one to finess across party lines?

Let us face facts: neither candidates were in a position to make this bailout a done deal. To say one failed and the other didn't is blind ignorance. Either both failed or both were not in a position to get the job done.

Why didn't the "high functioning moron" get the job done...he is in a position to do so.

Edited September 27, 2008 by SoCrazes

[SoCrazes]

Fluffster - You miss the whole point.

Obama was packaged and presented to the American people as the man a change, of consensus building, of communication across lines that divide, of making things happen.

It's rare that a leader will always be in the right place at the right time just as events unfold. A leader often has to inject themselves into the fray.

This was Obama's golden chance to do just that and prove he's more than just a teleprompter speech reader in a nice suit.

But he crashed and burned infront of the nation and world. He didn't even want to come to Washington! And now you're excusing him for not being on the right committee? I suppose if President Obama went to the U.N. to ask for something and they said "No!" that would be OK 'cause he really isn't on the UN councils.

So you are asserting that McCain is NOT packaged and presented to the people of the U.S. as a man that is of change, consensus building, communicating across lines that divide, making things happen?

Edited September 27, 2008 by SoCrazes

[Fluffybunny]

HiFluffybunny -- A couple of posts after this one, your answer there would seem to negate what I am posting below. Anyway, this is what I thought: am I wrong?

McCain can propose an alternate solution to the bail-out, if he is there in person.

The situation could depend on only a margin of a few votes;

McCain’s vote could be the crucial one for implementing the final proposal.

What do you say?

Karlis

The problems is that mccain himself is a self admitted non economist who doest have a good grasp on such things...and the bottom line is that he did not even bother to read the three page proposal he had days to be able to do so...he didnt offer anything else in its stead...so he basically showed up...took a lot of photos and then left without saying much so that when the time comes he can claim that he was on the right side of the argument regardless of the truth...

As for obama not walking on water and laying hands on blank printing paper to magically present the perfect proposal...well, po, you are just being silly. Neither mccain or obama are in a position to be able to tell the committee what to do, and neither of them are economist. Banking committee specialists are working on it who are educated on such things... You cant seem to grasp that, so I wont bother trying to burst your bubble as to why the two guys showing up didnt help(yes even mccain, your hero).

[Aztec Warrior]

It's way to premature to say "McCain failed, or that he crashed 'n burned." The proof will be in the pudding, if and when some agreement is reached. Will McCain play a role in getting the sides together and be seen as instrumental in a bill's passage? Don't know yet.

But it will be extremely difficult for Obama to take any of the credit, especially when he says" they can call me if they need me". That's not leadership.

Edited September 27, 2008 by Aztec Warrior

[SoCrazes]

It's way to premature to say "McCain failed, or that he crashed 'n burned." The proof will be in the pudding, if and when some agreement is reached. Will McCain play a role in getting the sides together and be seen as instrumental in a bill's passage? Don't know yet.

But it will be extremely difficult for Obama to take any of the credit, especially when he says" they can call me if they need me". That's not leadership.

Now that you've established yourself as an expert on leadership will you inform me of your definition of leadership?

[SoCrazes]

The problems is that mccain himself is a self admitted non economist who doest have a good grasp on such things...and the bottom line is that he did not even bother to read the three page proposal he had days to be able to do so...he didnt offer anything else in its stead...so he basically showed up...took a lot of photos and then left without saying much so that when the time comes he can claim that he was on the right side of the argument regardless of the truth...

As for obama not walking on water and laying hands on blank printing paper to magically present the perfect proposal...well, po, you are just being silly. Neither mccain or obama are in a position to be able to tell the committee what to do, and neither of them are economist. Banking committee specialists are working on it who are educated on such things... You cant seem to grasp that, so I wont bother trying to burst your bubble as to why the two guys showing up didnt help(yes even mccain, your hero).

I'm sure both candidates will milk this thing.

[Aztec Warrior]

Now that you've established yourself as an expert on leadership will you inform me of your definition of leadership?

I'm nearly an expert on everything. Why don't you open up your own dictionary to determine what qualities constitute leadership? I will magnanimously do it for you in very sophomoric terms.

1. Those entities that perform one or more acts of leading.

2. The ability to affect human behavior so as to accomplish a mission.

3. Influencing a group of people to move towards its goal setting or goal achievement. (Stogdill 1950: 3)

Leadership is a process in which a leader attempts to influence his or her followers to establish and accomplish a goal or goals. In order to accomplish the goal, the leader exercises his or her power to influence people. That power is exercised in earlier stages by motivating followers to get the job done and in later stages by rewarding or punishing those who do or do not perform to the level of expectation. Leadership is a continuous process, with the accomplishment of one goal becoming the beginning of a new goal.

Kirkpatrick, S.A., and Locke, Edwin A. (1996). "Direct and Indirect Effects of Three Core Charismatic Leadership Components on Performance and Attitudes." Journal of Applied Psychology 81: 36-51.

Obama did not exhibit any of those characteristics.

[SoCrazes]

I'm nearly an expert on everything. Why don't you open up your own dictionary to determine what qualities constitute leadership? I will magnanimously do it for you in very sophomoric terms.

1. Those entities that perform one or more acts of leading.

2. The ability to affect human behavior so as to accomplish a mission.

3. Influencing a group of people to move towards its goal setting or goal achievement. (Stogdill 1950: 3)

Leadership is a process in which a leader attempts to influence his or her followers to establish and accomplish a goal or goals. In order to accomplish the goal, the leader exercises his or her power to influence people. That power is exercised in earlier stages by motivating followers to get the job done and in later stages by rewarding or punishing those who do or do not perform to the level of expectation. Leadership is a continuous process, with the accomplishment of one goal becoming the beginning of a new goal.

Kirkpatrick, S.A., and Locke, Edwin A. (1996). "Direct and Indirect Effects of Three Core Charismatic Leadership Components on Performance and Attitudes." Journal of Applied Psychology 81: 36-51.

Obama did not exhibit any of those characteristics.

You're only an expert at cutting and pasting little freshman. An expert is able to apply his/her knowledge effectively toward a favorable outcome. Obama is a Senator (performs acts of leading) he is the Democratic candidate for President (influences a group of people to move towards its goal and its achievement) and is on several committees (ability to affect human behavior...).

Keep cut and pasting Aztec, you will graduate some day.

[Aztec Warrior]

You're only an expert at cutting and pasting little freshman. An expert is able to apply his/her knowledge effectively toward a favorable outcome. Obama is a Senator (performs acts of leading) he is the Democratic candidate for President (influences a group of people to move towards its goal and its achievement) and is on several committees (ability to affect human behavior...).

Keep cut and pasting Aztec, you will graduate some day.

I really don't have time to waste with children. If this is your normal contentious demeanor, you can post to yourself.

If you can move beyond your own nasty partisanship, at least try to stick to the topic at hand. How did Obama, by stating "they can call me if they need me" extrude any characteristics of leadership in regards to the current bail-out discussions?

Simple regurgitating the fact that Obama is a Senator, Democratic candidate for Presidential and a member of committees holds no relevance.

[SoCrazes]

I really don't have time to waste with children. If this is your normal contentious demeanor, you can post to yourself.

If you can move beyond your own nasty partisanship, at least try to stick to the topic at hand. How did Obama, by stating "they can call me if they need me" extrude any characteristics of leadership in regards to the current bail-out discussions?

Simple regurgitating the fact that Obama is a Senator, Democratic candidate for Presidential and a member of committees holds no relevance.

You're the one that got off topic with slinging insults. Besides, I'm Just applying the definition you provided. I'm sorry you supplied the bullet that shot your own post down. The child is not I, however, I will welcome you to run to mommy and claim someone is picking on you.

I ask you, how did it not extrude any characteristics of leadership in regards to the current bail-out discussions?

[Leonardo]

Both you and the Fluffster miss the whole point.

For months Obama has been running as the man of "change", that he personally was the one and only candidate that could bring people together like never before. He and his supporters constantly touted his great community organization and leadership skills, he's great ability to cross dividing lines and bring opposing sides together, heal wounds for the betterment of all.

This was his chance to prove all this is true and not just campaign fluff.

And he failed.

Failed how, MasterPo?

Has the economic crisis become unresolvable? Have those in Congress debating the bail-out plan and discussing amendments to it all thrown their toys out of the pram and decided there can not be a solution?

Sometimes, leadership is knowing when not to interfere.

I'm not suggesting Obama is what he is talked up to be, but your accusation of lack of leadership holds no water while the situation is yet unresolved.

[SoCrazes]

Failed how, MasterPo?

Has the economic crisis become unresolvable? Have those in Congress debating the bail-out plan and discussing amendments to it all thrown their toys out of the pram and decided there can not be a solution?

Sometimes, leadership is knowing when not to interfere.

I'm not suggesting Obama is what he is talked up to be, but your accusation of lack of leadership holds no water while the situation is yet unresolved.

Nice post Leo,

I'm not for either candidate at this point in time. I'm just not for slinging erroneous mud at either campaign.

[InHuman]

Mabey the "call me if you need me" was just cause he didn't want to get in the way and slow down the proccess.

[MasterPo]

But it will be extremely difficult for Obama to take any of the credit, especially when he says" they can call me if they need me". That's not leadership.

Bravo!

Edited September 27, 2008 by MasterPo

[InHuman]

Who says he wants to take credit? Mccain does.

[ninjadude]

But it will be extremely difficult for Obama to take any of the credit, especially when he says" they can call me if they need me". That's not leadership.

Funny. That's exactly what McCain said and did today - that he can phone it in.

[Karlis]

The problems is that mccain himself is a self admitted non economist who doest have a good grasp on such things...and the bottom line is that he did not even bother to read the three page proposal he had days to be able to do so...he didnt offer anything else in its stead...so he basically showed up...took a lot of photos and then left without saying much so that when the time comes he can claim that he was on the right side of the argument regardless of the truth...

Hi Fluffybunny -- if what you say here ... "the bottom line is that he did not even bother to read the three page proposal he had days to be able to do so..." is correct, then McCain would appear to be just another incompetent politician.

Well. so much for politicians I guess ...

May God have mercy on America ~~~

Karlis