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Telekinesis: Fact or Fiction?

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bee
Umm skeptics do require proof, they dont just believe things because it sounds cool.

There are different levels of 'proof' though aren't there. Ie..seeing it in front of your own eyes...believing an eye-witness...

trusting the orthodox scientific community. etc.

Also...I consider the bolded above...to be another example of a 'sly dig'. (hey..this is just like old-times... :D )

As you know the likes of Tesla and Einstein wouldn't have done what they did, if they had been held back by

the psychological constraints that sceptics tend to put on innovation + invention. (exploring something that sounds/feels 'cool'

has probably made the modern technological world what it is today....)

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chaoszerg
There are different levels of 'proof' though aren't there. Ie..seeing it in front of your own eyes...believing an eye-witness...

trusting the orthodox scientific community. etc.

Also...I consider the bolded above...to be another example of a 'sly dig'. (hey..this is just like old-times... :D )

As you know the likes of Tesla and Einstein wouldn't have done what they did, if they had been held back by

the psychological constraints that sceptics tend to put on innovation + invention. (exploring something that sounds/feels 'cool'

has probably made the modern technological world what it is today....)

Good grief Bee is would not a sly dig, it is true some people assume these things are real and believe in them because they sound cool. Just look at the section of the forum with people who claim to control fire or the weather, they are either all young teens or people who use silly excuses to avoid being shown up. If people really had TK we would all know about it by now as a real thing. No matter how hard people believe it, it does not make it true.

Heck I would love it to be true because I would have a lot of fun with TK abilities, but they are not real and I have to accept that it is just fantasy. All it ever boils down too is excuses or youtube vids, If people had this gift why not go to the proper people and prove it, instead of making lame excuses like they don't want to be famous, or they don't have to prove it to anyone.

Bee I think the oh this is a sly dig comment is a common thing many seem to jump to to make it seem like they are under attack. Why do some of you people have to always try and play the poor victim?

I remember I used to believe this stuff be real because it did sound cool and I really wanted it to be real, but after getting older I realised it was just a fantasy :lol:

Edit: spelling mistake.

Edited by chaoszerg

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bee
Bee I think the oh this is a sly dig comment is a common thing many seem to jump to to make it seem like they are under attack. Why do some of you people have to always try and play the poor victim?

You just can't stop can you? :D

I remember I used to believe this stuff be real because it did sound cool and I really wanted it to be real, but after getting older I realised it was just a fantasy :lol:

The older and wiser routine?

But we're getting too far off topic now...so I must scurry off and find another link of some kind......

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chaoszerg

You just can't stop can you?

:rolleyes:

lol

The older and wiser routine?

It's not older the wiser, its just that when you get older and after many failed attempts you begin to see things as the flop they are, and TK is one of them.

Please not another youtube video.

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bee
It's not older the wiser, its just that when you get older and after many failed attempts you begin to see things as the flop they are, and TK is one of them.

Now, this is all getting very surreal...on your profile you say you are 26 years old. What's with all these (alleged) very

young people claiming to have 'learnt better'...with the passage of time...?

As we are playing the age-game..I must inform you that I'm more than twice as old as you (if you ARE 26)....so when you are

as old mature :) as me...in 28 years time (get your calculators out boys and girls !!! ) you might have a leg to stand on...with this

age argument..... :P

Please not another youtube video.

It might be...it might not..you'll have to wait and see. Got to go out now, so it will be later this evening...

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eqgumby
There are different levels of 'proof' though aren't there. Ie..seeing it in front of your own eyes...believing an eye-witness...

trusting the orthodox scientific community. etc.

Also...I consider the bolded above...to be another example of a 'sly dig'. (hey..this is just like old-times... :D )

As you know the likes of Tesla and Einstein wouldn't have done what they did, if they had been held back by

the psychological constraints that sceptics tend to put on innovation + invention. (exploring something that sounds/feels 'cool'

has probably made the modern technological world what it is today....)

I think equating Tesla and Einstein with any current or even past scientific study of psychic phenomena is pushing the envelope. "Psi" is far from the same level as atomic physics or electrical engineering. This may change some day, when (and if) psychic phenomena/abilities are ever shown to be a repeatable, quantifiable, researchable event. In teh meantime, it just has to remain in the "unknown" column of human experience.

If this kind of reasoning is seen as a "dig"...well, psi is what it is...and the more people that pop up and claim to have 19 different abilities including the ability to control the weather...the harder it is to justify a case for it's reality.

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chaoszerg
Now, this is all getting very surreal...on your profile you say you are 26 years old. What's with all these (alleged) very

young people claiming to have 'learnt better'...with the passage of time...?

As we are playing the age-game..I must inform you that I'm more than twice as old as you (if you ARE 26)....so when you are

as old mature :) as me...in 28 years time (get your calculators out boys and girls !!! ) you might have a leg to stand on...with this

age argument..... :P

Lol Bee most of the people on here who make wild claims to have psychic powers tend to turn out to be 13 to 16, people have to grow up sometime, and if you are much older than me and still believe in these silly things then... :no:

Tk is not real Bee, it is just a x-men belief for people to latch onto, it has not been proved to be real, showing youtube vids does not make it real either. I want it to be real, like many other things I want to be real, but we have to come to a point and accept that some things are fantasy and make believe, and no amount of role playing or wishing it to be true is going to change that. :(

Edit: fix quote tags

Edited by chaoszerg

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S2F
I'm with Flame Dragon.....I felt that they put real effort into creating the ground-work for accepting that telekinesis was a live possibility/fact.

Whereas Ziggy Stardust just repeated variations on..."I haven't seen any evidence."

I also thought that Ziggy used below the belt tactics....when using Flame Dragon's age against them....kind of 'pat-pat' on the head...

'you'll grow up and learn' type of thing. And THEN it turns out that Ziggy is claiming to be all of 19 years old on his profile !

I think that sly digs and repeated demands for proof...is the basic formula to most sceptics arguements....

(but as you can see....I am not above the sly dig myself..... :P )

As I said, I believe Ziggy had the better argument, the point of the debate was TK, fact or fiction. Flame Dragon, while also putting forth good arguments could only point at the "possibility" of TK without proof. In my book anything that is "possible" but without proof falls in the realm of fiction. At least until a point in time that proof can be presented that changes my initial stance. I'm not completely against the idea, it's just without hard evidence it is only speculation and hearsay to me. :tu:

* oh and BTW, the winner of a debate is the one who is judged to have presented the better argument, it doesn't necessarily mean they are correct. B)

Edited by Slave2Fate

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bee
if you are much older than me and still believe in these silly things then... :no:

Aaahhhh...the innocence of youth... :D It is not unusual for a 19 year old or a 26 year old to believe that they

know it all and have all the answers. Knowing how much you don't know comes with age and experience.... ;)

Shall we leave the age thing alone now?

Tk is not real Bee, it is just a x-men belief for people to latch onto, it has not been proved to be real, showing youtube vids does not make it real either. I want it to be real, like many other things I want to be real, but we have to come to a point and accept that some things are fantasy and make believe, and no amount of role playing or wishing it to be true is going to change that. :(

http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-142874.html

This is a brief excerpt of the USA Military paper about Teleportation (only several pieces of it). It is recommended to read the complete original document, which is full of mathematical equations, formulas, diagrams, and so on:

- Teleportation Physics Study (telekinesis)

AIR FORCE RESEARCH LABORATORY.

AIR FORCE MATERIEL COMMAND.

EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE CA 93524-7048.

APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE; DISTRIBUTION UNLIMITED.

Eric W. Davis. Warp Drive Metrics. 4849 San Rafael Ave. Las Vegas, NV 89120 August 2004. Special Report

URL: http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/teleport.pdf

It transpires that the Military and Air Force are more than a little interested in telekinesis.....

Couple of quotes from the link above....

P-Teleportation is a form of psychokinesis (or PK) similar to telekinesis but generally used to designate the movement of objects (called apports) through other physical objects or over great distances. Telekinesis is a form of PK, which describes the movement of stationary objects without the use of any known physical force. And PK is essentially the direct influence of mind on matter without any known intermediate physical energy or instrumentation. Rigorously controlled modern scientific laboratory PK, and related psychic (a.k.a. “psi”, “paranormal” or parapsychology), research has been performed and/or documented by Rhine (1970), Schmidt (1974), Mitchell (1974a, b, see also the references cited therein), Swann (1974), Puthoff and Targ (1974, 1975), Hasted et al. (1975), Targ and Puthoff (1977), Nash (1978, see also the references cited therein), Shigemi et al. (1978), Hasted (1979), Houck (1984a), Wolman et al. (1986, see also the references cited therein), Schmidt (1987), Alexander et al. (1990), Giroldini (1991), Gissurarson (1992), Radin (1997, see also the references cited therein), Tart et al. (2002), Shoup (2002), and Alexander (2003).

A well-known theoretical/experimental/operational program directed by H. E. Puthoff, R. Targ, E. May and I. Swann was conducted at SRI International and the NSA, and sponsored at various times by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA), and the Army Intelligence and Security Command (INSCOM) over more than two decades;

A more spectacular series of rigorously controlled (and repeatable!) laboratory experiments occurred in the Peoples Republic of China (PRC). In September 1981, an extraordinary paper was published in the PRC in the journal Ziran Zazhi (transl.: Nature Journal), and this paper was entitled, “Some Experiments on the Transfer of Objects Performed by Unusual Abilities of the Human Body” (Shuhuang et al., 1981). The paper reported that gifted children were able to cause the apparent teleportation of small objects (radio micro-transmitters, photosensitive paper, mechanical watches, horseflies, other insects, etc.) from one location to another (that was meters away) without them ever touching the objects beforehand.

The experiments were operated under exceptionally wellcontrolled conditions (both blind and double-blind). The researchers involved included not only observers from various PRC colleges and medical research institutes, but also representatives from the PRC National Defense Science Commission. Because of the involvement of the latter, it was deemed necessary that an unclassified Intelligence Information Report be prepared by the DIA (see Shuhuang et al., 1981), which included a detailed English translation of the article.

Additional research carried out by the Aerospace Medicine Engineering Institute in Beijing was reported in the July 1990 issue of the Chinese Journal of Somatic Science (Kongzhi et al., 1990; Jinggen et al., 1990; Banghui, 1990), which was also translated into English by the DIA.

Reported in several articles are experiments involving the videotaping and high-speed photography of the transfer of test specimens (nuts, bundles of matches, pills, nails, thread, photosensitive paper, chemically treated paper, sponges dipped in FeCl3, etc.) through the walls of sealed paper envelopes, double layered KCNS type paper bags, sealed glass bottles and tubes with sealed caps, and sealed plastic film canisters without the walls of any of these containers being breached.

All of the Chinese experiments reported using gifted children and young adults, who possessed well-known extraordinary PK ability, to cause the teleportation of the various test specimens. In all the experimental cases that were reported, the test specimens that were teleported were completely unaltered or unchanged from their initial state, even the insects were unaffected by being teleported. The experiments were well controlled, scientifically recorded, and the experimental results were always repeatable.

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AlexG

There has yet to be any demontration of telekinesis which cannot be duplicated by a competent stage magician.

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Flame Dragon

Thank you all for reading the debate. Some who think ziggy has won i see your point. As well with those sided with me i thank you for seeing my point of view. Thanks

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Syaoransbear

What a funny debate. My opinion is completely unbiased in that I do not believe, and I do not disbelieve. Ziggy did a far better job, and Flame Dragon came off as somewhat childish. Ziggy effortlessly gave facts, while Flame Dragon gave me the impression that he was desperately grasping in the dark for anything that could prove telekinesis, no matter how unrelated it actually was to telekinesis.

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The Skeptic Eric Raven

I give it to Zig, but I am a bit biased. Boo ya!

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DrawingPics

An interesting topic, moving objects with the power of thought. I like to daydream about the topic although I am not too sure about it. But the debate was quite boring.

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Ziggy Stardust
Would you care to expand on................ :lol:

This is the formal debate section, after all.

Exactly; this is a formal debate section. I would have thought posting of sensationalist videos - probably more inclined towards drawing viewers than anything else - as 'proof,' to be quite incongruous. In fact, the idea that someone could actually deem that video as 'evidence' for the existence of TK does truthfully make me chuckle. So, once again: :lol:

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Syaoransbear

I felt like through the entire debate Ziggy was laughing behind all of his posts.

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bee

http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/teleport.pdf

http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-142874.html

Exactly; this is a formal debate section. I would have thought posting of sensationalist videos - probably more inclined towards drawing viewers than anything else - as 'proof,' to be quite incongruous. In fact, the idea that someone could actually deem that video as 'evidence' for the existence of TK does truthfully make me chuckle. So, once again: :lol:

So....do you think that Kalugina had telekinesis ability?

Also....have you looked at the recently released (2004) military documents, about telekinesis, linked to above...?

Does that wipe the smile off your face? :P

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AlexG
http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/teleport.pdf

http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-142874.html

So....do you think that Kalugina had telekinesis ability?

Also....have you looked at the recently released (2004) military documents, about telekinesis, linked to above...?

Does that wipe the smile off your face? :P

The CIA and the military have done many studies on many types of psychic phenomena. None of them worked. Including telekinesis. As for the teleportation 'study', it' a theoretical paper on the possible physics behind some of the outre possibilities in the universe.

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The One Who Is
http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/teleport.pdf

http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-142874.html

So....do you think that Kalugina had telekinesis ability?

Also....have you looked at the recently released (2004) military documents, about telekinesis, linked to above...?

Does that wipe the smile off your face? :P

Ooh, I've read those documents before. Nice ideas they had there.

These are my favorite parts:

At present, none of the theoretical concepts explored in this chapter have been brought to a level of technical maturity, where it becomes meaningful to ascertain whether any form of e-Teleportation is theoretically possible between extra space dimensions and different or parallel universes/spaces. However, there is the exception that traversable wormholes (three- and higher-dimensional) provide a solid physics principle for the implementation of teleportation between parallel universes/spaces.

They're not even at the level where they can determine if it's theoretically possible.

We will need a physics theory of consciousness and psychotronics, along with more experimental data, in order to test the hypothesis in Section 5.1.1 and discover the physical mechanisms that lay behind the psychotronic manipulation of matter.

They're not even beyond hypotheses yet. And it was mostly about teleportation, mostly involving physics, not the paranormal TK that the debate was about.

Still, at least it isn't "chakras, chakras, chakras."

:P

Edited for clarification before someone asks me to. :lol:

Edited by The One Who Is

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Shadowmalerenamon

If telekinesis exists, then it would be logical that there is a science behind it right?

Edited by Knight of the Twilight

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bee

http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/teleport.pdf

Ooh, I've read those documents before. Nice ideas they had there.

These are my favorite parts:

They're not even at the level where they can determine if it's theoretically possible.

They're not even beyond hypotheses yet. And it was mostly about teleportation, mostly involving physics, not the paranormal TK that the debate was about.

Still, at least it isn't "chakras, chakras, chakras."

I don't think you have quite understood your 'favourite parts'.

Notice that the first quote you use says.....explored in this chapter.....the chapter refered to is this.....

4.0 e-TELEPORTATION…...……...……..……………………………………………………………...50

4.1 Extra Space Dimensions and Parallel Universes/Spaces….……………………………………...50

4.2 Vacuum Hole Teleportation………………………………………………………………………52

4.3 Conclusion and Recommendations…………………………………………………………..…...53

The second quote that you use is specifically refering to section 5.1.1.

You have used these quotes in such away to make it look like no telekinesis has taken place under controlled

circumstances or before significant numbers of witnesses. This is simply not the case and either you did

not read the relevant parts of the document....or you are so biased against telekinesis that you are willing to

'cook the books' so to speak.

Here is a quote from page 55 of the document....

PK phenomenon was also explored in the Remote Viewing program. Col. J. B. Alexander (USA ret.)

credits professional aerospace engineer Jack Houck for “capturing PK phenomenon and transitioning it

into an observable form” (Houck, 1982, 1984a, b; Alexander et al., 1990; Alexander, 2003). During the

past three decades, Houck (along with Alexander) held a number of PK sessions, whereby attendees are

taught the PK induction process, and initiate their own PK events using various metal specimens (forks,

spoons, etc.). Individuals were able to completely bend or contort their metal specimens with no physical

force being applied whatsoever. Numerous government science advisors and senior military officials

took part in and/or witnessed these events, which took place at the Pentagon, at officers’ or scientists’

homes, and at one quarterly INSCOM retreat attended by the commanding general and a group of

colonels and generals commanding INSCOM units around the globe. Spontaneous deformation of the

metal specimens was observed at the PK session conducted during the INSCOM retreat, causing a great

deal of excitement among those present. Other notable trained observers were also present at this session,

and they critically reviewed the events.

Read the above quote carefully......very carefully........ :)

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AlexG

There's nothing that's been done which cannot be duplicated exactly by stage magic.

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bee
There's nothing that's been done which cannot be duplicated exactly by stage magic.

I think your records stuck......same as what you said in #35.

Say it a few more times and you might even convince yourself...... :D:P

Have you actually read any of the posts that I've put in this thread?

Or even bothered to read the quote in the post above yours?

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AlexG

Jack Houck holds spoon bending parties. He makes a living at it. He's been debunked by several stage magicians, including the Great Randi and Penn.

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The Skeptic Eric Raven
I think your records stuck......same as what you said in #35.

Say it a few more times and you might even convince yourself...... :D:P

Have you actually read any of the posts that I've put in this thread?

Or even bothered to read the quote in the post above yours?

Your idea of evidence and most skeptics is very, very different.

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