Dragons, myth and not universal gods

[The Gremlin]

lol, you are silly DC,

you did not prove that the Greeks worshiped dragons, and we used your defenition....ie giant, quadrupedal, winged, reptile.

they had drakones in their culture, which were big mythical snakes....some later aquiring wings as greek styles acommodated eastern ones.....but they never ever worshiped quadrupedal, winged reptiles.

end of.

why you cant even prove that the greeks ever believed in quadrupedal, winged giant reptiles, much less witnessed them and worshiped them.

You've been proven wrong so many times its hard to keep count.

[draconic chronicler]

lol, you are silly DC,

you did not prove that the Greeks worshiped dragons, and we used your defenition....ie giant, quadrupedal, winged, reptile.

they had drakones in their culture, which were big mythical snakes....some later aquiring wings as greek styles acommodated eastern ones.....but they never ever worshiped quadrupedal, winged reptiles.

end of.

why you cant even prove that the greeks ever believed in quadrupedal, winged giant reptiles, much less witnessed them and worshiped them.

You've been proven wrong so many times its hard to keep count.

As I have shown, since at leas 500 BC, the Ketos was represented in Greek art as a long necked, sometimes claw footed and winged, reptilian "sea dragon". And by the time of Pliny, this form was well established and portrayed on the Augustus Peace Monument in Rome which Pliny certainly was familiar with.

Pliny stated that Ketos was worshipped as a goddess in the Eastern (Greek culture) Roman empire. So here we have a limbed and winged , long necked dragon, (which incidentally is the daughter of other gods), worshipped as a Goddess. What part of that don't you understand? Or maybe those were Chinese immigrants and Pliny didn't mention that, right Grem.

What I find so odd, is that when there is eveience all over the ancient world of men worshipping "dragon deities" , how can you somehow believe that couldn't be the case for Greeks? Especially when at the height of the classical world, millions of Greeks believed a "big snake" (or puppet) named Glykon was also a God? Why is it so unbelievable to think a Sea Dragon who is the daughter of other gods could not be believed to be a god as well, especially when a Roman admiral actually witnessed it in his travels? You lose Grem. You lost before you even started.

[The Gremlin]

As I have shown, since at leas 500 BC, the Ketos was represented in Greek art as a long necked, sometimes claw footed and winged, reptilian "sea dragon".

no you havent, if you'll look back at the pics i posted you'll see what i mean.

if you are referring to that coin......i addressed that also....i have good reason to believe that it was misidentified.

And by the time of Pliny, this form was well established and portrayed on the Augustus Peace Monument in Rome which Pliny certainly was familiar with.

absolutely, agreed....but this doesnt mean that greeks 500bc saw it that way. Pliny, like many people then, and now, appeared to know the difference between mythology and reality......most of the time.

But also remember that Pliny said he witnessed a ketos getting beached, speared and cut up for its blubber.....it was a whale.

So Pliny did not think that ketos was a real quadrupedal, flying, giant reptile.

Pliny stated that Ketos was worshipped as a goddess in the Eastern (Greek culture) Roman empire. So here we have a limbed and winged , long necked dragon, (which incidentally is the daughter of other gods), worshipped as a Goddess.

The 'greek culture' did not wipe out pre-existing cultures in Asia or Africa; i can show you evidence from cities in the middle east where old, local gods and cultural motifs persist into the Hellenistic period and further into the Roman Imperial one. Pliny notes a local levantine tradition being identified with a greek mythical creature, he does so because it would be interesting to his audience, because its exotic......they didnt share the tradition.

The greeks had no quadrupedal, winged giant dragons.......that idea came from the east.....it was the trade of ideas, not any encounters with Smaug.

if they had none, how can they worship them?

if they had none, then your claim that they were universal is false.

Your claim that there is an universal 'form' is false....your claim that they were/are real is false.

Your claims that they are all of the lakemonsters, and are responsible for millions of 'disappearances', are false.

Your claim that billions of people unwittingly worship them is false.

Edited April 24, 2009 by lil gremlin

[draconic chronicler]

no you havent, if you'll look back at the pics i posted you'll see what i mean.

if you are referring to that coin......i addressed that also....i have good reason to believe that it was misidentified. Sure Grem, you know more than all the archaeologists. Several different sources date the same style coins.

absolutely, agreed....but this doesnt mean that greeks 500bc saw it that way. Pliny, like many people then, and now, appeared to know the difference between mythology and reality......most of the time.

But also remember that Pliny said he witnessed a ketos getting beached, speared and cut up for its blubber.....it was a whale. DC Wrong, Pliny knew what a whale was. If the Greeks in that city worshipped a whale he would have said so. The Ketos he was referring to being worshipped was obviously the sea dragon type that his readers would have been familiar with. Could some monk rewriting the texts lump whales and sea dragons together? Very possible.

So Pliny did not think that ketos was a real quadrupedal, flying, giant reptile. DC Wrong That it is purely your speculation. Pliny said these dragons attacked ships, something rarely done by whales, jellyfish or indian rock pythons.

The 'greek culture' did not wipe out pre-existing cultures in Asia or Africa; i can show you evidence from cities in the middle east where old, local gods and cultural motifs persist into the Hellenistic period and further into the Roman Imperial one. Pliny notes a local levantine tradition being identified with a greek mythical creature, he does so because it would be interesting to his audience, because its exotic......they didnt share the tradition. DC This is purely your speculation. Those west asian cities were entirely immersed in Greek culture, and the people believed they were as "Greek" as the Greeks of Athens.

The greeks had no quadrupedal, winged giant dragons.......that idea came from the east.....it was the trade of ideas, not any encounters with Smaug. DC Wrong, I have posted ancient art of GREEK winged and claw footed dragons for everyone to see. The evidence is simply too sparse for you to claim it was all copied from the East. This is purely your opinion.

if they had none, how can they worship them? DC Wrong, Pliny actually visited a city where the Ketos dragon was worshipped and you know it.

if they had none, then your claim that they were universal is false. DC Wrong, I have shown ancient Greek art work to prove that they did... and the gryphon is probably a misidentified dragon as well, many of the greek ones have very dragon like features including reptilian belly scutes and neck spines.

Your claim that there is an universal 'form' is false....your claim that they were/are real is false. DC: Wrong, an acclaimed anthropologist Dr. David E. Jones, proved it was so and states this in An Instinct for Dragons.

Your claims that they are all of the lakemonsters, and are responsible for millions of 'disappearances', are false. Wrong You cannot prove lake monsters are NOT dragons, and they have attacked people in a number of the eye witness accounts.

Your claim that billions of people unwittingly worship them is false. DC Wrong, many scholars acknowledge that Yahweh may be Yaw, the Canannite dragon god. Billions of people do worship Yahweh/Allah, and few do know he is probably a dragon deity, not only by Canannnite beliefs, but Gnostic Christian as well, not to mention his description in the Bible (wings, breathing fire, etc..

Give it up Grem, everyone can see you are wrong on all counts. BTW, I have now found that circa 450 BC winged GREEK sea dragon broach made for the Scythian market that I mentioned before, but couldn't find an image of unitl now. More proof you are wrong. This reproduction was made and sold by the Metropolitan Museum of Art NYC, in conjunction with a an exhibit of Scythian gold in the 1970's.

Edited May 24, 2009 by draconic chronicler

[Mattshark]

Give it up Grem, everyone can see you are wrong on all counts. BTW, I have now found that circa 450 BC winged GREEK sea dragon broach made for the Scythian market that I mentioned before, but couldn't find an image of unitl now. More proof you are wrong. This reproduction was made and sold by the Metropolitan Museum of Art NYC, in conjunction with a an exhibit of Scythian gold in the 1970's.

To be honest, that looks a lot like a seahorse.

Wrong You cannot prove lake monsters are NOT dragons, and they have attacked people in a number of the eye witness accounts.

Sorry but massive logical fallacy, he doesn't need to prove that they are not or have attacked people. You do if, however, because you made the claim.

Basic logic there, you should know better.

[DrawingPics]

Sorry but massive logical fallacy, he doesn't need to prove that they are not or have attacked people. You do if, however, because you made the claim.

Basic logic there, you should know better.

I think that both sides need to prove it because they have both made claims.

[Mattshark]

I think that both sides need to prove it because they have both made claims.

What about animals with no evidence. Nah. DC is asking for someone to disprove that animal with no evidence of existing is not a dragon. That is laughable logic.

[DrawingPics]

What about animals with no evidence. Nah. DC is asking for someone to disprove that animal with no evidence of existing is not a dragon. That is laughable logic.

Isn't this a debate?

[Archosaur]

To be honest, that looks a lot like a seahorse.

Sorry but massive logical fallacy, he doesn't need to prove that they are not or have attacked people. You do if, however, because you made the claim.

Basic logic there, you should know better.

A seahorse with wings....

....a flying seahorse?

[Mattshark]

A seahorse with wings....

....a flying seahorse?

Small exaggeration of one this?

After all there are sea horses known as sea dragons.

Isn't this a debate?

Yes but that does not alter the way evidence works. You can't prove a negative. Unless DC can back up his claim about lake monsters being dragons with evidence his claim can be dismissed.

[Archosaur]

Small exaggeration of one this?

After all there are sea horses known as sea dragons.

Yes but that does not alter the way evidence works. You can't prove a negative. Unless DC can back up his claim about lake monsters being dragons with evidence his claim can be dismissed.

Good points, Mattshark. It doesn't prove its a seahorse, but it is a possibility that they might have been.

Beautiful pictures, by the way.

[Mattshark]

Good points, Mattshark. It doesn't prove its a seahorse, but it is a possibility that they might have been.

Beautiful pictures, by the way.

They aren't they (not mine sadly), the leafy seadragons are fantastic. I think my gf has a pic of one in Tampa Aquarium.

[The Gremlin]

Give it up Grem, everyone can see you are wrong on all counts. BTW, I have now found that circa 450 BC winged GREEK sea dragon broach made for the Scythian market that I mentioned before, but couldn't find an image of unitl now. More proof you are wrong. This reproduction was made and sold by the Metropolitan Museum of Art NYC, in conjunction with a an exhibit of Scythian gold in the 1970's.

sorry dc, i believe all of your replies are inherently flawed.....many have been dealt with in this thread.

circa 450bc you say.....i would date that piece to post 323BC or between 323 - and 300 AD......not in the timescale that would support your argument.

i would suggest that it was Greco-Bactrian, and Hellenistic......with just a look at the pic you have produced.....you have not produced any verifyable info.

feel free to prove otherwise.

I do think however that it represents the ketos from the perseus myth..........it is a composite creature (mythical) of bird, fish and reptile.....even a dog's head is suggested.

It is not quadrupedal, entirely reptilian, it does not have membranous wings......and it is not an object of worship.

It is however a powerfully emblematic symbol of Hellenism, and Hellenic ideology.

nice brooch.

[The Gremlin]

the seahorses were thought to be baby hippocampi i think....

but may also have contributed to some late classical/hellenistic representations of the ketos.

great pics, they are amazing creatutes.

[YoshiYoshi]

Sorry for the necro posting but i just gotta say. . .dc you got freakin pon-zored.

[lookingfortruth]

Anyone who will go into a debate claiming dragons are real has more guts than i do. lol

[DigitalDreamer]

Or maybe just a harder head lulz

[Demonic Influence]

Dragon's must be real because where the hell could these "stories" come from,well actualy some people think they were some sort of species of dinosaur.

[lookingfortruth]

Dragon's must be real because where the hell could these "stories" come from,well actualy some people think they were some sort of species of dinosaur.

Oh dear, the same place unicorns come from. "But wait! They must be real! because where did all the stories of unicorns come from!" lol

I believe it is the work of imagination, not anything real

[DigitalDreamer]

Oh dear, the same place unicorns come from. "But wait! They must be real! because where did all the stories of unicorns come from!" lol

I believe it is the work of imagination, not anything real

Well done lookingfortruth lol

[lookingfortruth]

Well done lookingfortruth lol

anything for you K i'll stay on topic now. cuz i know your sig doesn't like it

[+DieChecker]

I think Draconic Chronicler is really reaching with his hypothisis and points. A lot of what he says is fact is actually still open for debate. Many of the sources he uses have more then one way to read it.

Is Draconic's book out yet? It has been something like 4 years now.