Money = Freedom (try not to get too upset)

[Lilly]

This is to remind everyone that inflammatory remarks are not part of civil discussion. Do not post things designed to insult others; Do not retaliate if others engage in such behaviors (instead use the report button).

[momentarylapseofreason]

A while ago here in the UK the government came up with a pretty good proposal.

If you've been on benefits for one or two years then you would have to do community service, washing graffiti off walls, gardening for pensioners, giving food to the homeless etc. etc.

I liked it but unfortunately it didn't go thorugh (from what I heard). It means that wether you get of your **** and get a job, or become a benefit cheat, at the end of the day you still have to work for your bread whilst providing a service. After a while the cheats would start to realise that getting an actual job would be better than cleaning for £90 a fortnight.

They have been doing this in Germany for years. They maintain parks, some work in Nursing homes, wash graffiti off, cook, do electrical work, carpentry, construction-you name it.

They can earn a skill this way also. After a while if they do well they are absorbed & get appropriate pay & pay taxes,paid vacations.

Edited October 27, 2008 by momentarylapseofreason

[The Jello Man]

Ideally, it should be that they don't tax the rich and distribute the wealth. Ideally, the rich are rich because of hard work. Ideally, anyone can be in the postion that they are in.

But that works in ideals. The ideal of capitalism is the harder you work, the better the class you have. The problem is you can't rely on ideals. The rich are often rich because they are born into it. They are powerful from parents. All distributing does is even the gap between the rich elite and everyone else.

And if it's heavier taxes on everyone, then the money will come back to you in the form of free health care and other government run programs. You are doing your part.

[AzTide]

Ideally, it should be that they don't tax the rich and distribute the wealth. Ideally, the rich are rich because of hard work. Ideally, anyone can be in the postion that they are in.

But that works in ideals. The ideal of capitalism is the harder you work, the better the class you have. The problem is you can't rely on ideals. The rich are often rich because they are born into it. They are powerful from parents. All distributing does is even the gap between the rich elite and everyone else.

And if it's heavier taxes on everyone, then the money will come back to you in the form of free health care and other government run programs. You are doing your part.

Wonderful ideals are always what starts the bad things... lol

[AROCES]

one of the bases of civilization is that the commonwealth always precedes the individual wealth. Where that is not the case the poor sooner or later invite the rich to a necktie party.

No, that is the bases of communism.

[+Sherapy]

No, she didn't...if you look back.

And there still is no source that will tell you all the loopholes that I KNOW they find. She can take everyone elses word for what they say but not mine?

http://www.nashvillecitypaper.com/news.php?viewStory=31288

It would seem that your state has a very similar plan to my state , you can't hardly get help let alone 'beat" the system ...

Edited October 27, 2008 by Tangerine Sheri

[questionmark]

No, that is the bases of communism.

So Adam Smith was a communist?

[AzTide]

So Adam Smith was a communist?

QM I thought you'd get a kick out of this explaination on tax cuts...

You may have seen this one already.

BAR STOOL ECONOMICS

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten

comes to $100.

If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something

like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.

The fifth would pay $1.

The sixth would pay $3.

The seventh would pay $7.

The eighth would pay $12.

The ninth would pay $18.

The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day

and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw

them a curve.

'Since you are all such good customers, he said, I'm going to reduce the

cost of your daily beer by $20.

Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the

first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what

about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the

$20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?'

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that

from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end

up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would

be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he

proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.!

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).

The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).

The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).

The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).

The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).

The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued

to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare

their savings.

'I only got 1 dollar out of the $20, 'declared the sixth man. He pointed to

the tenth man, 'but he got $10!'

'Yeah, that's right,' exclaimed the fifth man. 'I only saved 1 dollar, too.

It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!'

'That's true!!' shouted the seventh man. 'Why should he get $10 back when I

got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!'*

'Wait a minute,' yelled the first four men in unison. 'We didn't get

anything at all. The system exploits the poor!'

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat

down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill,

they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between

all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our

tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit

from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and

they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking

overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.

Professor of Economics, University of Georgia

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.

For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible

[questionmark]

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.

For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible

Its funny, and yes I know it.

Well, I don't mind through the board tax cuts.. the problem with Bush-o-nomics is that the sixth guy got the $20 rebate, the rest got none. And the government gave the bartender the $20 he gave them as discount.

[AzTide]

Its funny, and yes I know it.

Well, I don't mind through the board tax cuts.. the problem with Bush-o-nomics is that the sixth guy got the $20 rebate, the rest got none. And the government gave the bartender the $20 he gave them as discount.

Actually it was all of them the 10th guy was moved from 39.5% down to 35%

[questionmark]

Actually it was all of them the 10th guy was moved from 39.5% down to 35%

oops, did I say the sixth? better put on the reading glasses...

[MasterPo]

And if it's heavier taxes on everyone, then the money will come back to you in the form of free health care and other government run programs. You are doing your part.

If I have the money why in Heaven's name would I want "free" health care and other crappy government programs when I can buy my own?!

[Guardsman Bass]

If I have the money why in Heaven's name would I want "free" health care and other crappy government programs when I can buy my own?!

I take it compassion isn't part of your worldview? Or the fact that the system actually benefits you both individually and by creating a society where the costs of others' bankruptcies doesn't come roaring back to bite you in the *** with unintended consequences? But no, you'd rather have the money - truly, as I mentioned before, "I've got mine and **** everybody else!"

[+Sherapy]

I take it compassion isn't part of your worldview? Or the fact that the system actually benefits you both individually and by creating a society where the costs of others' bankruptcies doesn't come roaring back to bite you in the *** with unintended consequences? But no, you'd rather have the money - truly, as I mentioned before, "I've got mine and **** everybody else!"

its built into the current capitalistic expression... its seen as a flaw to care for others, to consider others .......there is no substance or heart in this frame....of course what we do for the least of us we do for all of us and what we fail to do for one we fail to do for all.....

its just basic decency..IMO anyways...

[MasterPo]

I take it compassion isn't part of your worldview? Or the fact that the system actually benefits you both individually and by creating a society where the costs of others' bankruptcies doesn't come roaring back to bite you in the *** with unintended consequences? But no, you'd rather have the money - truly, as I mentioned before, "I've got mine and **** everybody else!"

No.

This is exactly what I had intended this thread to be about before it was more or less hijacked.

When you have your own money you can shop for and buy the products and services that YOU want. That's freedom You do not have to take what someone else (e.g. government) deems you can have.

But when government takes away your money via taxes you loose that freedom to decide for yourself.

Hence money=freedom.

[AzTide]

I take it compassion isn't part of your worldview? Or the fact that the system actually benefits you both individually and by creating a society where the costs of others' bankruptcies doesn't come roaring back to bite you in the *** with unintended consequences? But no, you'd rather have the money - truly, as I mentioned before, "I've got mine and **** everybody else!"

You struck me as a socialist guardsman

[The Jello Man]

If I have the money why in Heaven's name would I want "free" health care and other crappy government programs when I can buy my own?!

So you don't lose it all when something actually does come up.

[MasterPo]

So you don't lose it all when something actually does come up.

If I'm already paying a premium for insurance how can I loose?

[The Jello Man]

If I'm already paying a premium for insurance how can I loose?

Really, all free health care means that your covered from taxes as opposed through insurance companies.

Don't suppose you own your own army, police force and road construction agency as well, do you?

Edited October 28, 2008 by Pinhead77

[AzTide]

Really, all free health care means that your covered from taxes as opposed through insurance companies.

Don't suppose you own your own army, police force and road construction agency as well, do you?

I have friends from Canada and they love our health care system compared to what Canada offers... Maybe Po has a point!!!

[Guardsman Bass]

No.

This is exactly what I had intended this thread to be about before it was more or less hijacked.

When you have your own money you can shop for and buy the products and services that YOU want. That's freedom You do not have to take what someone else (e.g. government) deems you can have.

But when government takes away your money via taxes you loose that freedom to decide for yourself.

Hence money=freedom.

And when it's clear that you would be better off paying the taxes, since it comes back to you in greater benefit?

[The Jello Man]

I have friends from Canada and they love our health care system compared to what Canada offers... Maybe Po has a point!!!

The biggest issue that Canadians have with the health care system up here is the length it takes to be treated. But that is more the shortage of health care workers as opposed to the system in general.

[AzTide]

The biggest issue that Canadians have with the health care system up here is the length it takes to be treated. But that is more the shortage of health care workers as opposed to the system in general.

Well they all prefer hands down the health care systen here in the US compared to Canada.

[questionmark]

Well they all prefer hands down the health care systen here in the US compared to Canada.

Sincerely? I have, like 99% of those who live in Europe health care benefits...yet I go to the doctor and pay for my bill. Not because he is better but because I can tell him when I want to be treated and don't have to wait in line.

Once you see that you get a $1000 medication for free in your local pharmacy you know what universal health care is good for.

[AzTide]

Sincerely? I have, like 99% of those who live in Europe health care benefits...yet I go to the doctor and pay for my bill. Not because he is better but because I can tell him when I want to be treated and don't have to wait in line.

Once you see that you get a $1000 medication for free in your local pharmacy you know what universal health care is good for.

Well everyone knows that prescription medication in the US is over price by 50 100 200 the times it costes say in Canada.