Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
MasterPo

Money = Freedom (try not to get too upset)

344 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

MasterPo
The problem is not to give somebody a fish, but a net to catch his own. That is what American style welfare has not learned since 1906.

And if the person chooses to sell that net for a 60" plasma TV and an Xbox?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
questionmark
And if the person chooses to sell that net for a 60" plasma TV and an Xbox?

Then that person does not eat. simple.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
momentarylapseofreason
If giving money and programs solved poverty, then how do you account for the billions - if not trillions! - of dollars spent since the 70's on welfare and poverty programs?

IOW, if just giving money was the answer why hasn't it worked or at least made a significant dent?

Most people do not mind paying taxes or helping those that need help as long as they are helped to help themselves & we see results of progress.

The problem is that our government/including other governments- do not know how to spend our money fairly nor intelligently.There is tremendous waste & greed.

The results speak for themselves

Scandinavia is a good example of success-but no system has been perfect. I do not believe perfection exists.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MasterPo
Then that person does not eat. simple.

I'd like to see that happen. I really would! :ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MasterPo
Most people do not mind paying taxes or helping those that need help as long as they are helped to help themselves & we see results of progress.

The problem is that our government/including other governments- do not know how to spend our money fairly nor intelligently.There is tremendous waste & greed.

The results speak for themselves

Scandinavia is a good example of success-but no system has been perfect. I do not believe perfection exists.

But people don't like their own hard-earned money taken from them and see nothing in return but more of the same old same-old.

Where is the responsibility and consequence on the part of the receiver to go to that job training, to complete it, get a job and stick with it for years and years and year until they finally achieve something in their life?

And where's the accountability on the receiver for not p***ing their money away on Starbucks or Xbox or ringtones or concert tickets?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Fluffybunny
I'd like to see that happen. I really would! :ph34r:

I bet you would!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
questionmark
But people don't like their own hard-earned money taken from them and see nothing in return but more of the same old same-old.

Where is the responsibility and consequence on the part of the receiver to go to that job training, to complete it, get a job and stick with it for years and years and year until they finally achieve something in their life?

And where's the accountability on the receiver for not p***ing their money away on Starbucks or Xbox or ringtones or concert tickets?

Hope you don't have an accident, between the hospital bill and the lack of earning you'd be sitting in front of the church steps with a hat in you "ideal" world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MasterPo
I bet you would!

I'm not the monster you think I am.

The point I was trying to make, given the analogy, was that if the person doesn't use their newly given (handout) net to get a meal but rather sells it for a moments frittering pleasure they still won't starve. Someone will take pitty again on them, give them another fish and a new net and what lesson was learned? They don't have to lift a finger, they can have all the fun they want, and will still survive on someone else's back!

That goes triple if there are children involved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
AzTide
of course not !

But there is much less homelessness & poverty.

If you live in poverty you chose to do so -or suffer severe addiction and have refused to get help

We have somewhat americanized the system & now poverty is increasing rapidly-actually

I think they are working against that now (americanization of the system) but they don't want it to be like the not so long ago past where people could live wonderfully and collect welfare whilst sitting on their butts.

It's all about balance, fairness, intelligent strategies/planning.

We need to help people that truly need help and help them to help themselves.

Before I add my comments I'd like to get this out so you understand my thinking is and where my family is daily.

I have a 14 year old son Kody who is a high functioning but non verbal autistic youth. He will never be able to survive on his own or even for an hour or 2 by himself for that matter. He will never speak and he will probably never be more mature than a 3 year old.

So I understand the needs of certain types of people in society. We've lived with this for 14+ years yet we accept NO GOVERNMENT assistance outside of his public schooling classes and once the government REPLACED his voice augmentation machine after it was broke at school while another student used it because they couldn't afford one of their own.

Sure it's our choice as parents to not accept government assistance but as long as we can work it's our job not other citizens job to provide for him. And trust me we could get at least 1800 a month in just money a month for being care givers to our son. What's wrong with society when the government wants to pay you to take care of your own children?

These days too many people are taught or believe a village should raise a child. That's the problem with society they hate that it's out of control and always turning to someone else instead of handling their own problems.

As far as I'm concerned Welfare didn't work in the days of Rome and it doesn't work today. What it does do is help people feel better about themselves because in a way they're helping others. And the government keeps the lower class from rebelling because they see others with something they don't have and it's easier for the poor to blame someone else for your station in life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MasterPo
Hope you don't have an accident, between the hospital bill and the lack of earning you'd be sitting in front of the church steps with a hat in you "ideal" world.

Don't go there!

2 years ago I had to pay $15,000 out of pocket for my wife's medical bills. Insurance didn't cover it. No lawyer offered free help. No government handouts. And I couldn't even deduct the costs on my taxes. But I paid it anyway. What choice did I have?

This weekend alone I spent $1,000 on car repairs I wasn't expecting. Still have to go back next weekend for several hundred$$$ more.

Where's my helping hand? You think cash just comes out of my backside like an ATM?! :angry:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Fluffybunny
Hope you don't have an accident, between the hospital bill and the lack of earning you'd be sitting in front of the church steps with a hat in you "ideal" world.

Are there no poorhouses? No workhouses? No debtor's prisons?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
momentarylapseofreason
But people don't like their own hard-earned money taken from them and see nothing in return but more of the same old same-old.

Where is the responsibility and consequence on the part of the receiver to go to that job training, to complete it, get a job and stick with it for years and years and year until they finally achieve something in their life?

And where's the accountability on the receiver for not p***ing their money away on Starbucks or Xbox or ringtones or concert tickets?

I think most people don't mind contributing-there are many wealthy philanthropist out there.

I think we just want to see our money REALLY HELP-sometimes we need to take risks& experiment to see what really works.

People need to be motivated by examples & society and learn from an early on- that life isn't always easy. It takes hard work but it's not just about all that either.

It's really all about balancing the spiritual, family, social,work & educating oneself. Never stop gathering wisdom & tools.

Enjoy the ride on the way-as you get there. You could be gone tomorrow. or lose a loved one suddenly, whom you didn't spend enough time with.

Financial security creates peace of mind-no doubt-but materialism can be a moral perversion-they are two different things.

Edited by momentarylapseofreason

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
questionmark
Don't go there!

2 years ago I had to pay $15,000 out of pocket for my wife's medical bills. Insurance didn't cover it. No lawyer offered free help. No government handouts. And I couldn't even deduct the costs on my taxes. But I paid it anyway. What choice did I have?

This weekend alone I spent $1,000 on car repairs I wasn't expecting. Still have to go back next weekend for several hundred$$$ more.

Where's my helping hand? You think cash just comes out of my backside like an ATM?! :angry:

And if next week you loose your job and the bank forecloses on your house you will be happy as hell for some food stamps, unless you can lean on your family.

And that is the point that nobody is getting.

Is the US tax system broken? Yes, big time.

Does it need reform? Ya betcha.

Can you abolish it? Not unless you want to follow the buffaloes on their trail with a tipi on your back.

Can you pay less? No, you are not paying for the government's expenses as is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
AzTide
But people don't like their own hard-earned money taken from them and see nothing in return but more of the same old same-old.

Where is the responsibility and consequence on the part of the receiver to go to that job training, to complete it, get a job and stick with it for years and years and year until they finally achieve something in their life?

And where's the accountability on the receiver for not p***ing their money away on Starbucks or Xbox or ringtones or concert tickets?

PO don't forget standing in line at the grocery store watching a lady as she buys Doritos, Soda, Steak, Ice Cream, Expensive Lunch Meats, TGI Fridays frozen foods, and Apple Jacks. And she bought these items with her State issued food assistance card.

So while we bargained shopped she purchased all the cool stuff..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MasterPo
Are there no poorhouses? No workhouses? No debtor's prisons?

I know a woman who's 29 y/o.

She has a crappy part-time job she hopes will become full-time soon. She has that job because she left (so she claims) a pretty good full-time job with a well known and growing company.

I've seen her spend $20 on cheap plastic sunglasses when it wasn't needed or urgent but then say she doesn't have money for gas to get home.

I've seen her spend $100 on junk jewlery (real sidewalk vendor garbage stuff) then say she isn't eat that day because she doesn't have money for food.

She goes to every Renaissance Faire in the northeast, in full costume and accessories, but doesn't have the money to fix her car so instead she walks to work 40 minutes each way even in the winter.

Last year she almost died. He asthma put her in ICU for nearly a week. But she doesn't have the money to go to a doctor or take even the basic company health coverage.

She is always seen drinking a fresh Grande Starbucks moca latte whatever. She even offers to buy people the same (don't know with what!)

On paper, she would look like a good candidate for your welfare/tax-the-rich program. But in reality she's an idiot!

And there are many (too many) more like her out there.

Put some requirements with steep consequences on her and people like her then come back and say I'm not paying enough.

Off to buy my own Grande Latte Moca Starbucks...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tiggs
The modern laborer, on the contrary, instead of rising with the process of industry, sinks deeper and deeper below the conditions of existence of his own class. He becomes a pauper, and pauperism develops more rapidly than population and wealth. And here it becomes evident that the bourgeoisie is unfit any longer to be the ruling class in society, and to impose its conditions of existence upon society as an overriding law. It is unfit to rule because it is incompetent to assure an existence to its slave within his slavery, because it cannot help letting him sink into such a state, that it has to feed him, instead of being fed by him. Society can no longer live under this bourgeoisie, in other words, its existence is no longer compatible with society.

* Throws a little Karl into the mix *

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
AzTide
And if next week you loose your job and the bank forecloses on your house you will be happy as hell for some food stamps, unless you can lean on your family.

And that is the point that nobody is getting.

Is the US tax system broken? Yes, big time.

Does it need reform? Ya betcha.

Can you abolish it? Not unless you want to follow the buffaloes on their trail with a tipi on your back.

Can you pay less? No, you are not paying for the government's expenses as is.

I'd rather have the government own a grocery store where only the necessities are kept and passed out as food assistance than to just give them random money.

Or alter the program to be more like WIC. The WIC program seems to work well were the family is limited to what they can purchase.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
questionmark
* Throws a little Karl into the mix *

Hope you got your helmet on...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Michelle

How do you guys propose that we get people off welfare that are perfectly capable of working but spit out baby after baby to get more money and be stay at home moms?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MasterPo
And if next week you loose your job and the bank forecloses on your house you will be happy as hell for some food stamps, unless you can lean on your family.

Big difference!

If I lost my job tomorrow I would not have the bank foreclosing on me. I have the means for a little while at least to keep up the payments. In fact, I'm actually a few payments ahead so I have a cushion!! That's planning - something too many don't bother with these days.

I would immediatelty cancel all my nice-to-have subscription services, eat at home, don't travel, etc. to cut back expenses.

And I would immediately start looking for a new job.

And If necessary I would take a lesser job just to get some cash flow in. Been there, done that already.

That's called being a responsible and fore-thought person.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Fluffybunny
I'm not the monster you think I am.

The point I was trying to make, given the analogy, was that if the person doesn't use their newly given (handout) net to get a meal but rather sells it for a moments frittering pleasure they still won't starve. Someone will take pitty again on them, give them another fish and a new net and what lesson was learned? They don't have to lift a finger, they can have all the fun they want, and will still survive on someone else's back!

That goes triple if there are children involved.

You seem to ALWAYS go to the most ridiculous extreme example when it comes to any kind of social program. Are the some idiots that are going to fritter away what they are given? of course. Are the majority of the people that are given job training and money using that money and training in the ridiculous fashions you always seem to jump to? No they dont.

It really gets tiring to have to listen to these obscenely polar arguments that take extreme examples, no data to back them up, and then throw them out there as some kind of blanket statement of reality.

It is never so simple as you would like to make it seem to be...you like to pick one factor without considering the other factors that it interacts with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
questionmark
How do you guys propose that we get people off welfare that are perfectly capable of working but spit out baby after baby to get more money and be stay at home moms?

Get a good education to those babies and they'll pay taxes sooner or later. See it as an investment for the future. Now, if you let them go on welfare too, because there is no money to give them an education, you have a problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
AzTide
How do you guys propose that we get people off welfare that are perfectly capable of working but spit out baby after baby to get more money and be stay at home moms?

Register for assistance and you’re only allowed 36 months of help in your LIFETIME and the assistance only covers what children you have when you sign up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MasterPo
You seem to ALWAYS go to the most ridiculous extreme example when it comes to any kind of social program. Are the some idiots that are going to fritter away what they are given? of course. Are the majority of the people that are given job training and money using that money and training in the ridiculous fashions you always seem to jump to? No they dont.

It really gets tiring to have to listen to these obscenely polar arguments that take extreme examples, no data to back them up, and then throw them out there as some kind of blanket statement of reality.

It is never so simple as you would like to make it seem to be...you like to pick one factor without considering the other factors that it interacts with.

Ridiculous? Extreme???

If it was so ridiculously extreme then why is there still such a great "need" for welfare? If my example is but a mere drop in the larger context of the needy then why is there still so many needy? If you're point was correct welfare would be a mere footnote on the national budget but it's not.

There are far more slugs than you think on the public dole. Whether you choose to recognize it or not isn't my problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MasterPo
Get a good education to those babies and they'll pay taxes sooner or later. See it as an investment for the future.

There you have it folks.

What more can be said? :wacko:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.