Money = Freedom (try not to get too upset)

[questionmark]

There you have it folks.

What more can be said?

shortsighted, aren't we?

[Michelle]

Get a good education to those babies and they'll pay taxes sooner or later. See it as an investment for the future. Now, if you let them go on welfare too, because there is no money to give them an education, you have a problem.

That's the problem I see all of the time. Those kids grow up knowing how to work the system and refuse to go to school knowing they won't starve to death and they'll have a place to live.

[AzTide]

Get a good education to those babies and they'll pay taxes sooner or later. See it as an investment for the future. Now, if you let them go on welfare too, because there is no money to give them an education, you have a problem.

Be real inner city youth have it drilled into their heads that they have no shot. That's why selling drugs, living in government assisted housing, their baby mammas on welfare prevail.

Only a very small fraction escapes this life and when they do they run as far away as fast as they can and don't look back.

[Fluffybunny]

SO what?

Who cares?

Really?

This is right up there with your silly bumper sticker poll. It doesnt mean anything. Its one person. There are idiots everyone, and there are people that are so frugal that they will let their own children die rather than take them to the doctor when they have plenty of money. The stupidity goes both directions.

just because you know one kind of idiot does not mean you can paint everyone with a broad brush...that is a slippery slope.

Go do some research on how specific programs do, how successful they are at getting people back to work, getting people trained...something specific...rather than this "I know a person who is broke but spends money in a fashion I disagree with" type of argument. It gets old to hear these kinds of stories and then think they are supposed to have any value.

I know a woman who's 29 y/o.

She has a crappy part-time job she hopes will become full-time soon. She has that job because she left (so she claims) a pretty good full-time job with a well known and growing company.

I've seen her spend $20 on cheap plastic sunglasses when it wasn't needed or urgent but then say she doesn't have money for gas to get home.

I've seen her spend $100 on junk jewlery (real sidewalk vendor garbage stuff) then say she isn't eat that day because she doesn't have money for food.

She goes to every Renaissance Faire in the northeast, in full costume and accessories, but doesn't have the money to fix her car so instead she walks to work 40 minutes each way even in the winter.

Last year she almost died. He asthma put her in ICU for nearly a week. But she doesn't have the money to go to a doctor or take even the basic company health coverage.

She is always seen drinking a fresh Grande Starbucks moca latte whatever. She even offers to buy people the same (don't know with what!)

On paper, she would look like a good candidate for your welfare/tax-the-rich program. But in reality she's an idiot!

And there are many (too many) more like her out there.

Put some requirements with steep consequences on her and people like her then come back and say I'm not paying enough.

Off to buy my own Grande Latte Moca Starbucks...

[AzTide]

You seem to ALWAYS go to the most ridiculous extreme example when it comes to any kind of social program. Are the some idiots that are going to fritter away what they are given? of course. Are the majority of the people that are given job training and money using that money and training in the ridiculous fashions you always seem to jump to? No they dont.

It really gets tiring to have to listen to these obscenely polar arguments that take extreme examples, no data to back them up, and then throw them out there as some kind of blanket statement of reality.

It is never so simple as you would like to make it seem to be...you like to pick one factor without considering the other factors that it interacts with.

Actually in this argument very little actual data has been put up by anyone.

[MasterPo]

just because you know one kind of idiot does not mean you can paint everyone with a broad brush...that is a slippery slope.

Regrettably, there are far more of her amoung our 20-somethings today than you seem to want to acknowledge.

I don't blame you. I wouldn't believe it myself if I didn't see it every week when I work with young people. Maybe 2 or 3 out of 10 are one good or at least moderately decent paths to a self-sufficent and productive life. The rest are just cruising for good ol' time!

[momentarylapseofreason]

Well, in Germany women are encouraged to have babies. They are payed fairly well (even if they are fairly stable financially) until the children are kindergarten age. By the government. (I personally think it's ridiculous) but we need future tax payers.

The government complains because birth rates are dropping-too many women want a career and have 0. 1 - 2 kids

Kindergarten is free to low cost (depending on income). They start at age 3.

At that point there is no excuse for not seeking employment or to get educated-once these kids are taken care of.(recently many companies also help)

Fortunately most don't keep spitting out babies . ( I hate to say it but many Muslims do this in Europe)

And there is a stigma on this type of woman that will not be flattering. (having kids to get welfare-welfare parents often create future welfare children)

I've read that in Scandinavia they are forced to get educated-most people fortunately want to accomplish things they can be proud of-remember this.

Edited October 26, 2008 by momentarylapseofreason

[AzTide]

SO what?

Who cares?

Really?

This is right up there with your silly bumper sticker poll. It doesnt mean anything. Its one person. There are idiots everyone, and there are people that are so frugal that they will let their own children die rather than take them to the doctor when they have plenty of money. The stupidity goes both directions.

just because you know one kind of idiot does not mean you can paint everyone with a broad brush...that is a slippery slope.

Go do some research on how specific programs do, how successful they are at getting people back to work, getting people trained...something specific...rather than this "I know a person who is broke but spends money in a fashion I disagree with" type of argument. It gets old to hear these kinds of stories and then think they are supposed to have any value.

Actually Fluff he's not far off he's described so many of my ex employees over the years.

The worse ones were the woman gets assistance "money, food card, housing" for her and the kids and lets the boyfriend live there "cause no social worker ever shows up to check" while he works and all his money is free money pretty much to them.

[Fluffybunny]

Regrettably, there are far more of her amoung our 20-somethings today than you seem to want to acknowledge.

I don't blame you. I wouldn't believe it myself if I didn't see it every week when I work with young people. Maybe 2 or 3 out of 10 are one good or at least moderately decent paths to a self-sufficent and productive life. The rest are just cruising for good ol' time!

And you have confirmed all these people are on welfare? How do you have access to these peoples personal finances?

[HKCavalier]

How do you guys propose that we get people off welfare that are perfectly capable of working but spit out baby after baby to get more money and be stay at home moms?

Who are these people? Do you know any? What vanishingly small percentage of the population are we talking about here?

[AzTide]

Who are these people? Do you know any? What vanishingly small percentage of the population are we talking about here?

Yes I do and the population is not vanishing it's getting larger. As I stated above I've had hundreds if not thousands of current and ex employees over the last 20 plus years who we've been talking about.

Because if you were correct then the governments budgets for such issues should be shrinking and it's not they are growing at the Federal and state levels.

[MasterPo]

And you have confirmed all these people are on welfare? How do you have access to these peoples personal finances?

I know for sure this woman is on Medicaid (that's who's paying for last year's hospital stay - so in a way I'm paying for it too!).

My point was that on paper she would seem to be one of those poor lower income people who everyone here thinks should get a check from "the rich" and I'm trying to point out she's a fool wth her money!!! So where's the motivation for her to be the adult she's suppsoed to be and not 29 going on 10?!

[Tiggs]

How do you guys propose that we get people off welfare that are perfectly capable of working but spit out baby after baby to get more money and be stay at home moms?

Other than designing and distributing nanofactory assemblers to the masses rendering money useless?

* Ponders *

Government Childcare vouchers, rather than benefits, for a start. Mandatory Community based volunteering to help them at least get some real experience on their CV's.

[MasterPo]

Government Childcare vouchers, rather than benefits, for a start. Mandatory Community based volunteering to help them at least get some real experience on their CV's.

How about telling them not to pump out babies they can't afford to take care of?!

[Michelle]

Who are these people? Do you know any? What vanishingly small percentage of the population are we talking about here?

Yes, I've known hundreds of them. Their children are now grown up and doing the same thing. Some of them don't even raise their kids. They give them to their parents to raise but they collect money from the government for their kids and go out and party almost every night. I grew up in a restaurant my mother owned and saw people come in and out and work for only as long as it takes to get benifits started again or have another baby. They would talk about how their cousins or sisters and bothers were beating the system and give each other tips on how to beat it another way. In my adult life I worked in a restaurant for twenty years and saw much of the same thing.

Do you have any more questions?

[Tiggs]

How about telling them not to pump out babies they can't afford to take care of?!

If they can't stay at home or receive money for doing it - then that would defeat their objective of just pumping out babies. Good role models and a little education, however, wouldn't hurt.

[HKCavalier]

Yes I do and the population is not vanishing it's getting larger. As I stated above I've had hundreds if not thousands of current and ex employees over the last 20 plus years who we've been talking about.

Because if you were correct then the governments budgets for such issues should be shrinking and it's not they are growing at the Federal and state levels.

I'm sorry, "vanishingly small" does not mean that anything is actually vanishing. It means in essence extremely small, so small that when you look at the total picture it's barely visible, like the slice of government spending that goes to (horrors!) earmarks.

I was taking issue with the crap about pumping out babies one after another, or however it was put. I know and have known a lot of lower income folk (I've been there) and they're not like this at all. Most have multiple jobs and are trying to improve their situation. Read Nickled and Dimed--it's a shot book that shows how the poor are penalized for being poor and have to pay double for stuff other folks get for free.

[momentarylapseofreason]

How about telling them not to pump out babies they can't afford to take care of?!

Hey , I have a somewhat disturbing idea !

Make it financially worthwhile for these type of women to get their tubes tied or get sterilized (must be documented/proven). ($ 5000, plus? .........). I bet you most would bite the bait !

It would save money & children( from a basically crappy childhood) in the long run

Edited October 26, 2008 by momentarylapseofreason

[questionmark]

Hey , I have a somewhat disturbing idea !

Make it financially worthwhile for these type of women to get their tubes tied or get sterilized (must be documented/proven). ($ 5000, plus? .........). I bet you most would bite the bait !

Does not even work in India, and they are way more desperate.

[+Sherapy]

Yes, I've known hundreds of them. Their children are now grown up and doing the same thing. Some of them don't even raise their kids. They give them to their parents to raise but they collect money from the government for their kids and go out and party almost every night. I grew up in a restaurant my mother owned and saw people come in and out and work for only as long as it takes to get benifits started again or have another baby. They would talk about how their cousins or sisters and bothers were beating the system and give each other tips on how to beat it another way. In my adult life I worked in a restaurant for twenty years and saw much of the same thing.

Do you have any more questions?

just where are you, because most states have a time limit on getting govt help and lot sof conditions ..its almost impossible to beat the system...lol

[Michelle]

just where are you, because most states have a time limit on getting govt help and lot sof conditions ..its almost impossible to beat the system...lol

BULL!

[AzTide]

just where are you, because most states have a time limit on getting govt help and lot sof conditions ..its almost impossible to beat the system...lol

Arizona

[+Sherapy]

BULL!

where are you then Michelle so I can look into this.....

[AzTide]

Hey , I have a somewhat disturbing idea !

Make it financially worthwhile for these type of women to get their tubes tied or get sterilized (must be documented/proven). ($ 5000, plus? .........). I bet you most would bite the bait !

It would save money & children( from a basically crappy childhood) in the long run

You know what's funny my ex wife wanted her tubes tied after our second child was born and the dr told her she was too young. Even though the insurance company was willing to pay for the procedure.

[Michelle]

Hey , I have a somewhat disturbing idea !

Make it financially worthwhile for these type of women to get their tubes tied or get sterilized (must be documented/proven). ($ 5000, plus? .........). I bet you most would bite the bait !

It would save money & children( from a basically crappy childhood) in the long run

You must not have seen the thread on that. That idea was compaired to fascism or something.