Money = Freedom (try not to get too upset)

[AzTide]

That was my point, which was that even though taxes were significantly higher during the period above, they didn't bring the economy screeching to a halt or prevent investment. Part of that was unionization, part of it was heavy middle class consumer spending, part of it was strong federal spending, and part of it was the fact that US companies faced very little foreign competition (Europe was devastated, most of the Communist World moved towards economic autarky and/or "trade" with other communist countries, and Latin America embraced Import Substitution Industrialization, which limited trade, although it didn't prevent it completely) - as you said. Again, my point was that the above economic expansion (and it was a net economic expansion; there were, as you mentioned, recessions during the period) occurred in spite of significantly higher taxes. They're not the end-all, be-all.

Those were not your points I made those point you made very vague statements with no facts and then you say "Oh wait that's what I meant".

Whatever you debate like a politician claim everything as yours and you offer no substance.

[SoCrazes]

Define "loophole". Give me an example.

I strongly suspect what you (and others) call a "loophole" is what the law allows.

BTW, can you sight an example of a profitable Amercian company that didn't pay any (zero, nada, zippo) income taxes? There's are plenty of 10-k and other public docs out there so you shouldn't have any trouble finding one, if it exists.

I don't like to be called BTW

Excerpt from: http://seekingalpha.com/article/100089-hig...axes-are-a-myth

According to a GAO study released October 14, 2008, most corporations pay no federal tax. This is quite an amazing statement - we are told relentlessly that we need to reduce taxes for corporations (they are stated at 35%) so they can create more jobs (overseas ahem).

The Government Accountability Office said 72 percent of all foreign corporations and about 57 percent of U.S. companies doing business in the United States paid no federal income taxes for at least one year between 1998 and 2005.

More than 38,000 foreign corporations had no tax liability in 2005 and 1.2 million U.S. companies, or 66.7 percent of them, paid no income tax, the GAO said. Combined, the companies had $2.5 trillion in sales.

The study showed about 28 percent of large foreign corporations, those with more than $250 million in assets, doing business in the United States paid no federal income taxes in 2005 despite $372 billion in gross receipts, the senators said. About 25 percent of the largest U.S. companies paid no federal income taxes in 2005 despite $1.1 trillion in gross sales that year, they said.

More tax cuts for corporations, please, so profits can "trickle down" to the rest of us

[AzTide]

Well Fluffy, might be a good idea, but the next POTUS will have the following problem:

about 50% of the collected taxes will be needed to pay for the military

about 50% of the collected taxes will be needed to pay for the interest and redemption for T-Bonds

about 100% of the collected taxes are already gone before we even get over the first two priorities. Good luck at finding some place to save on.

Here is what comes in and what goes out in 2008 for the Federal Goverment

Estimated receipts for fiscal year 2008 were $2.66 trillion.

$1.25 trillion - Individual income tax

$927.2 billion - Social Security and other payroll taxes

$314.9 billion - Corporate income tax

$68.1 billion - Excise taxes

$29.2 billion - Customs duties

$25.7 billion - Estate and gift taxes

$50.7 billion - Other

The budget for 2008 totals $2.9 trillion. Percentages in parentheses indicate percentage change compared to 2007. This budget request is broken down by the following expenditures:

Mandatory spending: $1.788 trillion (+4.2%)

$608 billion (+4.5%) - Social Security

$386 billion (+5.2%) - Medicare

$209 billion (+5.6%) - Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP)

$324 billion (+1.8%) - Unemployment/Welfare/Other mandatory spending

$261 billion (+9.2%) - Interest on National Debt

Discretionary spending: $1.114 trillion (+3.1%)

$481.4 billion (+12.1%) - United States Department of Defense

$145.2 billion (+45.8%) - Global War on Terror

$69.3 billion (+0.3%) - Health and Human Services

$56.0 billion (+0.0%) - United States Department of Education

$39.4 billion (+18.7%) - United States Department of Veterans Affairs

$35.2 billion (+1.4%) - US Department of Housing and Urban Development

$35.0 billion (+22.0%) - State and Other International Programs

$34.3 billion (+7.2%) - Department of Homeland Security

$24.3 billion (+6.6%) - Energy

$20.2 billion (+4.1%) - Department of Justice

$20.2 billion (+3.1%) - Department of Agriculture

$17.3 billion (+6.8%) - National Aeronautics and Space Administration

$12.1 billion (+13.1%) - Department of Transportation

$12.1 billion (+6.1%) - Department of Treasury

$10.6 billion (+2.9%) - United States Department of the Interior

$10.6 billion (-9.4%) - United States Department of Labor

$51.8 billion (+9.7%) - Other On-budget Discretionary Spending

$39.0 billion - Other Off-budget Discretionary Spending

The Iraq war and the Afghanistan war are not part of the defense budget; they are appropriations.

[AzTide]

Are you saying that there isnt any way to save money?

Oh money could be saved but it won't be saved. They owe everyone who got them elected.

[SoCrazes]

Here is what comes in and what goes out in 2008 for the Federal Goverment

Estimated receipts for fiscal year 2008 were $2.66 trillion.

$1.25 trillion - Individual income tax

$927.2 billion - Social Security and other payroll taxes

$314.9 billion - Corporate income tax

$68.1 billion - Excise taxes

$29.2 billion - Customs duties

$25.7 billion - Estate and gift taxes

$50.7 billion - Other

The budget for 2008 totals $2.9 trillion. Percentages in parentheses indicate percentage change compared to 2007. This budget request is broken down by the following expenditures:

Mandatory spending: $1.788 trillion (+4.2%)

$608 billion (+4.5%) - Social Security

$386 billion (+5.2%) - Medicare

$209 billion (+5.6%) - Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP)

$324 billion (+1.8%) - Unemployment/Welfare/Other mandatory spending

$261 billion (+9.2%) - Interest on National Debt

Discretionary spending: $1.114 trillion (+3.1%)

$481.4 billion (+12.1%) - United States Department of Defense

$145.2 billion (+45.8%) - Global War on Terror

$69.3 billion (+0.3%) - Health and Human Services

$56.0 billion (+0.0%) - United States Department of Education

$39.4 billion (+18.7%) - United States Department of Veterans Affairs

$35.2 billion (+1.4%) - US Department of Housing and Urban Development

$35.0 billion (+22.0%) - State and Other International Programs

$34.3 billion (+7.2%) - Department of Homeland Security

$24.3 billion (+6.6%) - Energy

$20.2 billion (+4.1%) - Department of Justice

$20.2 billion (+3.1%) - Department of Agriculture

$17.3 billion (+6.8%) - National Aeronautics and Space Administration

$12.1 billion (+13.1%) - Department of Transportation

$12.1 billion (+6.1%) - Department of Treasury

$10.6 billion (+2.9%) - United States Department of the Interior

$10.6 billion (-9.4%) - United States Department of Labor

$51.8 billion (+9.7%) - Other On-budget Discretionary Spending

$39.0 billion - Other Off-budget Discretionary Spending

The Iraq war and the Afghanistan war are not part of the defense budget; they are appropriations.

Where did you get the numbers?

[AzTide]

Where did you get the numbers?

Here's the link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_United_S..._federal_budget

[MasterPo]

The Government Accountability Office said 72 percent of all foreign corporations and about 57 percent of U.S. companies doing business in the United States paid no federal income taxes for at least one year between 1998 and 2005.

The foreign ones, that doesn't seem right. But then again many American corps don't pay foreign taxes either. You'd need to examine the international law.

As for the alledged 57%, again - define "loophole". And while you're at it, define "paid no federal income tax".

There are several legitimate reasons why a business may not pay any tax. Having a loss for the year is one thing. You can't pay taxes on money (net profit) you didn't make!

Many start-ups can run for years and years in the red before showing a profit. Very common for the bio-tech field for example.

[AzTide]

The foreign ones, that doesn't seem right. But then again many American corps don't pay foreign taxes either. You'd need to examine the international law.

As for the alledged 57%, again - define "loophole". And while you're at it, define "paid no federal income tax".

There are several legitimate reasons why a business may not pay any tax. Having a loss for the year is one thing. You can't pay taxes on money (net profit) you didn't make!

Many start-ups can run for years and years in the red before showing a profit. Very common for the bio-tech field for example.

You can only claim a lose for 6 years

[MasterPo]

You can only claim a lose for 6 years

Could be. I can't afford to run at a loss for that long to find out!

[AzTide]

The foreign ones, that doesn't seem right. But then again many American corps don't pay foreign taxes either. You'd need to examine the international law.

As for the alledged 57%, again - define "loophole". And while you're at it, define "paid no federal income tax".

There are several legitimate reasons why a business may not pay any tax. Having a loss for the year is one thing. You can't pay taxes on money (net profit) you didn't make!

Many start-ups can run for years and years in the red before showing a profit. Very common for the bio-tech field for example.

You can only claim a lose for 6 years and besides there are plenty of clever bookkeeping tricks to show that your company had a lose when you actually profited.

[ninjadude]

As an Aussie, perhaps you don't realize, but BHO proposes to raise taxes on businesses to the highest in the industrialized world. You're probably fine with that, eh?

He has proposed no such thing.

[MasterPo]

You can only claim a lose for 6 years and besides there are plenty of clever bookkeeping tricks to show that your company had a lose when you actually profited.

There are only so many "tricks". You can only deduct some things for so long, get tax credits for others, etc etc. Sooner or later you pay the piper.

But you do raise a good point. Look at all the time and energy businesses (and individuals) put in trying to minimize their tax burden. Just imagine the productivity if all that effort had gone into actually doing the business!!

[ninjadude]

The election is how to get more money into the hands of the government so that they can spend it for us. Because they are so much smarter than we are.

No the REPUBLICANs already SPENT the money. You elected them and expected them to wiser than you. Even though W is about as dumb as a post. The money is gone. Do you even know how we're going to pay the interest on that debt?

[MasterPo]

Do you even know how we're going to pay the interest on that debt?

Sure.

We're going to enact universal health care at a cost of $1 trillion dollars, enact a $1,000 bond per child rule, then we're going to cut taxes on 95% of the people and raise them on 1.5-5% to pay for it all.

Makes perfect sense to me!

[AzTide]

He has proposed no such thing.

Are u an Aussie Ninja

[ninjadude]

We're going to enact universal health care at a cost of $1 trillion dollars, enact a $1,000 bond per child rule, then we're going to cut taxes on 95% of the people and raise them on 1.5-5% to pay for it all.

Most likely we are going to have tax increases for everyone in order to pay that debt. Other issues will have to wait. But that's just my opinion. As opposed to McCain who wants to continue the obscene spending of the last 8 years on a meaningless war.

[MasterPo]

Most likely we are going to have tax increases for everyone in order to pay that debt.

So you admit Obama is lying through his teeth to us when he says 95% will get a tax cut, his tax cut calculator on his website, etc etc and you don't care.

Thank you.

Edited October 25, 2008 by MasterPo

[ninjadude]

So you admit Obama is lying through his teeth to us when he says 95% will get a tax cut, his tax cut calculator on his website, etc etc and you don't care.

I'm sure he certainly wants to do what he can. I hope that happens eventually. But lots of smart people say we will be paying debt with higher taxes or conversly higher defecit spending. Unfortunately many think there is a limit to the deficiet spending as well.

And he is not lying any more than McCain is about his tax cuts for everyone! That will result in even less money available.

Obama is about hope and change. McCain is more of the same.

[MasterPo]

Obama is about hope and change.

Then you must mean fantasy and self-dillusionment.

If you agree that higher taxes all around are inevtiable then how can you possibly believe a person who is telling you they can do all those things and still cut your taxes?

If you're willing to admit that higher taxes for all has to come to pass then how can you back mere "hope" and "change"?

Sure, I hope things don't get that bad. But "hope" isn't going to fund universal health care or $1,000 per child bonds. And "change" won't make the national debt go away or magically reduce the need to protect ourselves in the world.

"Hope" is always a good thing, when tempered with some kind of realistic basis. Otherwised it's denial of reality, seeing what you want to see and not what is. And that's pathalogical.

[ninjadude]

Then you must mean fantasy and self-dillusionment.

Just what I think of McCain.

[MasterPo]

Just what I think of McCain.

Difference is - McCain isn't promising universal health care, $1,000 bond per child, etc etc.

[BlindMessiah]

Difference is - McCain isn't promising universal health care, $1,000 bond per child, etc etc.

The real difference for you is McCain's middle name is Sidney, not Hussein. That's what decided your vote.

[MasterPo]

The real difference for you is McCain's middle name is Sidney, not Hussein. That's what decided your vote.

At least the Auzzies won't be attacking us any time soon.

[ninjadude]

Difference is - McCain isn't promising universal health care, $1,000 bond per child, etc etc.

No he's promising a continuation of the BUSH adminstration. How well is that going for you?

[MasterPo]

No he's promising a continuation of the BUSH adminstration. How well is that going for you?

Well, let's see:

I have had a better-than-minimum-wage job for most of the last 8 years.

I am paid to date on my mortgage and credit cards.

I have a few coins left over in my pocket.

I haven't been blown up in any further terrorists attacks.

And I won an award for Angler of the Year this season.

So I'd say the Bush years have been pretty good to me.

Thanks for your concern.