+Sherapy Posted October 23, 2008 #1 Share Posted October 23, 2008 question for everyone .... what does this say to you ??? "God never changes. You can't change perfection." special thanks to nxt2hvn for this thread idea.... discuss... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKnight Posted October 23, 2008 #2 Share Posted October 23, 2008 To me it says "God never changes, you can't change perfection". Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted October 23, 2008 Author #3 Share Posted October 23, 2008 To me it says "God never changes, you can't change perfection". Lol ah come on Haparash, what constitues perfection by what standards do you measure this ??? i am wanting to probe deeply into this .. where is robbie when you need him???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belle. Posted October 23, 2008 #4 Share Posted October 23, 2008 (edited) http://atheism.about.com/od/whatisgod/a/immutable.htm Philosophical theism commonly ascribes to God the attribute of “immutable” - the idea that God cannot and does not change. Whatever God is like now is the way that God was for all of the past and the way God will be for all of the future. It doesn’t matter what happens elsewhere, God always and inevitably remains the same. Why do people believe this? Does it make sense to say God cannot change? The impetus for this attribute comes from the more fundamental idea of God being perfect. If God is perfect right now, then it would not seem possible for God to change. Any change would either add to God (like learning something new), which suggests that God wasn’t really perfect before, or it would take away from God (like forgetting something), which suggests that God would no longer be perfect. Thus, if God was always perfect in the past, is perfect right now, and will always be perfect in the future, then nothing can either add to or take away from God. It is then concluded that since any change must either take away or add to God, then God must be incapable of ever changing. Although it may not seem obvious that any change would affect God’s perfection, it must be remembered that God is absolutely perfect. The origins of an immutable God lie more in Greek and Neoplatonic ideas about the need for a perfect God than in the ancient Jewish ideas about a God who lives in and acts within human history. Because of this, although the attribute of immutability has been popular, it has also come under serious challenge. It should not be assumed that this popularity has only existed among philosophers — average believers have also been drawn to this idea because an immutable God would seem to offer a stable focal point in a universe filled with changes, often for the worse. Nevertheless, arguing for an immutable God would seem to remove many of the personal connections between us and God which are the point of arguing for a personal God. How, for example, can we be “made in the image of God” when our existence is so completely unlike God’s existence? How can an immutable God understand our fears, our hopes, our dreams? If God’s perfection includes immutability and we should be striving for perfection, then perhaps the common sorts of worship services found in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam should be abandoned in favor of something more like the teachings of Buddhist monasteries. An immutable God cannot learn anything because learning implies change. If God cannot learn anything, then there are things which God will never know (thus conflicting with God’s alleged omniscience) or God has always known absolutely everything. That, however, would raise the question of just what the point of creation was. This is one reason why people have not only rejected the doctrine that God is immutable, but also the general Neoplatonic argument that God must be perfect. This has helped lead to the development of process theism, a theistic position which postulates a God who grows and develops and lives alongside us. Edit: sorry for no input on my part....but um yeah what this guy says. Edited October 23, 2008 by Belle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKnight Posted October 23, 2008 #5 Share Posted October 23, 2008 ah come on Haparash, what constitues perfection by what standards do you measure this ??? i am wanting to probe deeply into this .. where is robbie when you need him???? The statement doesn't say much more than that. Objective perfection doesn't exist. Period. If God is God then he is perfect, and every other thing's perfection can only be in relation to God's perfection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godsnmbr1 Posted October 23, 2008 #6 Share Posted October 23, 2008 If time is an illusion and all moments are truly one, then wouldn't the true form of God be the sum total of everything that has ever been? A perfect whole? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eight bits Posted October 23, 2008 #7 Share Posted October 23, 2008 Perhaps this is related. One of the early religious objections to evolution by natural selection was that if species went extinct, then God "must have" made mistakes. Fossil beds, then, would have been seen as God's wastebasket. But you do not hear that objection so much anymore, because we understand that the only thing a species can be "perfectly" adapted to are the environmental conditions actually present when the species is alive. As those conditions change, what is a perfect adaptation to them changes, too. Perfect, then, is not necessarily a static attribute. I cannot imagine that anyone who would assert "God is perfect" would deny that God's choice to create made some changes in the order of things.To be perfect when God is all that there is, to remain perfect throughout the turmoil of one's creatures running amok, and to be perfect still when the drama of time and space has played itself out leaves open at least the possibility of some movement along the way. For the record, I don't assert that God is perfect. Maybe who those who do imagine a static perfection. I don't know; believers disagree among themselves on so may other points, maybe there is room for holy disagreement here as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orcseeker Posted October 23, 2008 #8 Share Posted October 23, 2008 If god was so perfect, why are there many religions not directed at him and other with no religion at all. If he was so perfect, they would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Xues Posted October 24, 2008 #9 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Which God? Obviously we simply assume what cannot change is god. For example the scientific laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Link of Hyrule Posted October 24, 2008 #10 Share Posted October 24, 2008 where is robbie when you need him???? At work, I'm afraid. Just got home Yay for the weekend. I would say that "perfection" is a trait that no human can reach. It is something we might aspire to, but something no one could ever reach. We could be almost perfect, certainly we all have our unique traits that set us as distinct and beautiful individuals. But "perfect"? I would say not. Additionally, every human being has a different idea of what perfection actually is. What I see as perfection is different to what anyone else would see it as. So it's very hard to ascribe any being as having "perfection". As a Christian, I believe God is perfect. No human can ever claim to know God well enough to say they know everything about him. Even the most learned biblical scholar is just scratching the surface. And I don't claim to be a learned biblical scholar! So in some ways it is physically impossible for me to define how or why God is perfect. I accept it on Faith (there's that word - Faith) that God is perfect. God is described as being perfect in the Bible, and I do not see anything to contradict that. So i take it as true and accept it (or perhaps I take it as true and therefore don't see anything to contradict it - depending on what point of view you want to take; I prefer the former, myself). I see God as perfect. Therefore God does not change. Never. However, while God may not change, this does not by default mean that he would act exactly the same in every single circumstance. This is a popular misconception when dealing with God, particularly from those who want to argue against the Bible. They'll offer a "contradiction" where one passage says that God will not be merciful to people but then elsewhere in the Bible says that God will be merciful (as one example - there are others that I'm sure people have heard before). They then state that God does not change and therefore should be entirely identical responses in both situations. But that is not taking into account the details of the particular situation, and how the period of history might change the action. To use an example, if someone asks me to go out for a night on the town on Saturday night, I could very well say Yes. It's the weekend and I've got Sunday off. So why not - let's go for those drinks and music and friendship. However, if someone asks me to go out for a night on the town on Wednesday night, I am much more likely to say No. I have to work the next day. I need to prepare lessons, prepare assessments, program classes, write reports, and I need to get a relatively early night's sleep to handle the kids who I am working with. Have I "changed" in the space of Saturday-to-Wednesday? Not really. I'm still the same person, with the same hopes and fears and loves. But the circumstances have changed. This change in circumstance has led me to two completely contradictory responses. Not because I am contradicting myself, but because the historical events in my life (my job compared to the weekend) have changed the way I would respond. Why would we then limit God to only one answer for every single situation? Thanks for the question, Sheri. All the best. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cradle of Fish Posted October 24, 2008 #11 Share Posted October 24, 2008 It tells me that people have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to God. What was the New Testament but God changing his approach? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted October 24, 2008 Author #12 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Perhaps this is related. One of the early religious objections to evolution by natural selection was that if species went extinct, then God "must have" made mistakes. Fossil beds, then, would have been seen as God's wastebasket. But you do not hear that objection so much anymore, because we understand that the only thing a species can be "perfectly" adapted to are the environmental conditions actually present when the species is alive. As those conditions change, what is a perfect adaptation to them changes, too. Perfect, then, is not necessarily a static attribute. I cannot imagine that anyone who would assert "God is perfect" would deny that God's choice to create made some changes in the order of things.To be perfect when God is all that there is, to remain perfect throughout the turmoil of one's creatures running amok, and to be perfect still when the drama of time and space has played itself out leaves open at least the possibility of some movement along the way. For the record, I don't assert that God is perfect. Maybe who those who do imagine a static perfection. I don't know; believers disagree among themselves on so may other points, maybe there is room for holy disagreement here as well. 8bits you bring in an aspect I was pondering also..... perfection as adaption therefore change or is perfection unchanging.... could we be seeing a new ideology emerging???? @ Belle my post candy , i had completely gone blank on how did this idea of perfection take form.. agian the best kept secret the greek influence. (neoplatonic..). do you see a parallel between the faith and trust posit and the perfection equates adaption vrs perfection is static posit?? your thoughts on this belle and 8bits??? @ robbie thank you for your insights, what I am struck by is the role faith plays in this idea from the bleievers posit..if i am reading this correct if i can ask the same question of you as belle and 8 bits looove to hear your response.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Rodríguez Posted October 24, 2008 #13 Share Posted October 24, 2008 It doesn't make any sense, unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatus1 Posted October 24, 2008 #14 Share Posted October 24, 2008 question for everyone .... what does this say to you ??? "God never changes. You can't change perfection." special thanks to nxt2hvn for this thread idea.... discuss... For me, from the standpoint of an atheist, it sounds like a conversation-stopper, a declaration that this is not something to discuss, but rather something to be believed regardless of any other arguments. In other words, the important part of the sentence is not that God never changes, but rather that God is perfection, and any attempt to argue the logic of the sentence is an attack on God's perfection. Again, as an atheist, it sound like even if I asked about the changes between the Old Testament God and the New Testament God, I would be rebuffed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug1029 Posted October 24, 2008 #15 Share Posted October 24, 2008 question for everyone .... what does this say to you ??? "God never changes. You can't change perfection." special thanks to nxt2hvn for this thread idea.... discuss... Can the perfect God make a rock so large He can't lift it? Evil exists, so God cannot be "perfect." Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyver Posted October 24, 2008 #16 Share Posted October 24, 2008 You can learn alot about God by reading the scriptures. It is written that God is the potter. As he was creating something at the wheel the vessel became marred in his hands. He then folded it down upon itself and fashioned it into something else that seemed good to him. Perhaps the evil exists so that it can be identified and eliminated that once again creation can be whole, complete, and perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bee Eff Posted October 24, 2008 #17 Share Posted October 24, 2008 (edited) question for everyone .... what does this say to you ??? "God never changes. You can't change perfection." special thanks to nxt2hvn for this thread idea.... discuss... Change can occur perfectly. Thus, perfection can change perfectly. Perfection is not stagnant. Stagnation is imperfect. "God never changes" if taken in the wrong context is a false assumption. Creation was a change. God became superior to his creation, before the creation's existence, God could not be superior to his creation. Edited October 24, 2008 by Bee Eff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Link of Hyrule Posted October 24, 2008 #18 Share Posted October 24, 2008 It tells me that people have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to God. What was the New Testament but God changing his approach? I would recommend you re-read my last post on this thread (the one right before this response of yours that I'm quoting right now). Just because God doesn't act the same every situation does not mean he is "changing". What God did was not a "change". Jesus came into the world. This change in circumstance, not a change in the character of God. This circumstance, which was planned out by God since the beginning (God didn't suddenly think "what I've been doing is not working, what was plan B again?"), affected the circumstances around which God would forever work. Since Jesus came and died for us, there is no longer a need to act to bring judgement on Israel's enemies or to keep the line of David clear to bring forth the Messiah (since he had already come). The immediate judgement that was apparent when God dealt with people in order to fulfil his plan for salvation is no longer the way God works because that act of salvation. However, all the Judgements handed out in the Old Testament are still promised to happen in the New Testament. After death, we will all face judgement before the Throne of God. God hasn't suddenly changed and said "I'm not going to punish disobedience anymore". Now THAT would be a change in God's character. However, as you can see (that is to say, as I can see), God has not changed. He is still the same God as the Old Testament, offering life and bringing death. The only difference is that it is no longer immediate. And this difference exists because God's plan through Jesus has been fulfilled and we now only await the Last Day when the plan of existence will be complete. But as it is, God's character has not changed, but the circumstances have - and that makes a big difference. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted October 25, 2008 #19 Share Posted October 25, 2008 (edited) question for everyone .... what does this say to you ??? "God never changes. You can't change perfection." special thanks to nxt2hvn for this thread idea.... discuss... I seem to remember something about this quote, Sheri!!! For me, the issue of perfection (as it relates to God) is an issue of perception and expectation. It could be argued that objective perfection does exist and God is objectively perfect and thus can never change. If God exists as everything, if God is All, then God is objectively perfect. There are issues with this that could be discussed elsewhere, but for the purpose of this thread we could assume it is true. The issue of God's perfection would be, then, the limitations of our perception. We could perceive God differently today than God was perceived 2000 years ago - all according to what our requirements of a God are. However, God would still be unchanged (and unchanging) and perfect. In this premise the quote from Nxt2Hvn would be true as God and the concept of perfection are absolute and equivalent. The other possibility is that God is not All. The only way (that I can see, there may be other possibilities) for God to be perfect would then be if God did change to suit circumstances. Perfection wouldn't change, God would. In this premise the quote from Nxt2Hvn would only be 1/2 true as God is not absolute, but the concept of perfection is - they are not equivalent. We would always view God as perfect according to our changing standards of perfection, but the concept of perfection would remain an absolute ideal. Edited October 25, 2008 by Leonardo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belle. Posted October 25, 2008 #20 Share Posted October 25, 2008 @ Belle my post candy , i had completely gone blank on how did this idea of perfection take form.. agian the best kept secret the greek influence. (neoplatonic..). do you see a parallel between the faith and trust posit and the perfection equates adaption vrs perfection is static posit?? Hanging a few absolute terms off God, never seems to get us much closer in understanding him unfortunately. If anything they are annoying and obfuscate, it becomes like mental quicksilver. Especially when suddenly! we attempt to extrapolate using human metaphors, why he does things...... IE God as a parent (gggrrrrrr the one I hate the most). He suddenly gets granted a sort of honorary human status and then quickly scurries back to an absolute and unchanging thing, once it's over. It's like we never quite get right where our humanness starts and the divine begins. I'll go with it though Static perfection hmmmm, take PAs thing that he doesn't change from Wednesday to Saturday....well, I think he does change. Although that is edging into the ideas of 'persons' (always confusing to me ) how are we the same person from one moment to the next, multiple clones etc. Meh I'm tired and have just created a babble-post for you, that is making less sense than the original statement, so I'll go now But take a look at the wiki page for perfection: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cradle of Fish Posted October 25, 2008 #21 Share Posted October 25, 2008 I would recommend you re-read my last post on this thread (the one right before this response of yours that I'm quoting right now). Just because God doesn't act the same every situation does not mean he is "changing". What God did was not a "change". Jesus came into the world. This change in circumstance, not a change in the character of God. This circumstance, which was planned out by God since the beginning (God didn't suddenly think "what I've been doing is not working, what was plan B again?"), affected the circumstances around which God would forever work. Since Jesus came and died for us, there is no longer a need to act to bring judgement on Israel's enemies or to keep the line of David clear to bring forth the Messiah (since he had already come). The immediate judgement that was apparent when God dealt with people in order to fulfil his plan for salvation is no longer the way God works because that act of salvation. However, all the Judgements handed out in the Old Testament are still promised to happen in the New Testament. After death, we will all face judgement before the Throne of God. God hasn't suddenly changed and said "I'm not going to punish disobedience anymore". Now THAT would be a change in God's character. However, as you can see (that is to say, as I can see), God has not changed. He is still the same God as the Old Testament, offering life and bringing death. The only difference is that it is no longer immediate. And this difference exists because God's plan through Jesus has been fulfilled and we now only await the Last Day when the plan of existence will be complete. But as it is, God's character has not changed, but the circumstances have - and that makes a big difference. Regards, I don't know how you live your life while believing in such a massive contradiction. It's classic doublethink. You're saying that he intended people to die and cease to exist, then at an arbitrary date, install this salvation plan, which might not have worked if he sent Jesus to a more enlightened part of the world, such as India, Rome or China. The approach changed. Either he changed his approach mid way, or he intended for people to cease to exist for the first many thousands of years, and if he did that he didn't offer 'salvation' anyone pre-Christ, including Adam, Eve, Moses, David or Abraham, that's pure cruelty, not a trait of a perfect God. And if he was perfect, why didn't he set this little system up from day one? Seriously his plan sounds like something out of a James Bond movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skim Milky Posted October 25, 2008 #22 Share Posted October 25, 2008 (edited) As a human its way to difficult to even understand what perfection really means, much less attribute it to some form of sentient being. If we find something we dont like, something that makes us uncomfortable, then we often see that as imperfection. If you believe, like me, that God works through a natural process, then yes, God is perfect. Look at it through human eyes. A). The laws of nature are perfectly suited for the possible evolution of life. Whether you believe in God or not, the Laws of Nature are perfect. Especially considering the wide spectrum of possibilities that could have taken hold. Everything fits just right in its own niche. Take a piece out and it all collapses. . The idea of human morality is perfect as well. Not that we are very good at exhibiting these ideas. But, the mere idea of standards of Good and Evil, right and wrong, show that there is an idea of perfection and an idea of....anti-perfection. The fact that, no matter how unlikely, there is an idea of perfection shows, if there is some form of universal consciousness, it too hopes to instill this idea of perfection to us. Edited October 25, 2008 by Skim Milky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skim Milky Posted October 25, 2008 #23 Share Posted October 25, 2008 I don't know how you live your life while believing in such a massive contradiction. It's classic doublethink. You're saying that he intended people to die and cease to exist, then at an arbitrary date, install this salvation plan, which might not have worked if he sent Jesus to a more enlightened part of the world, such as India, Rome or China. The approach changed. Either he changed his approach mid way, or he intended for people to cease to exist for the first many thousands of years, and if he did that he didn't offer 'salvation' anyone pre-Christ, including Adam, Eve, Moses, David or Abraham, that's pure cruelty, not a trait of a perfect God. And if he was perfect, why didn't he set this little system up from day one? Seriously his plan sounds like something out of a James Bond movie. It makes sense to me. Create a world. Let them make their decisions. See what they do. Observe, unfortunately, that they utterly failed. Implement the emergency rescue. You cannot judge what God has done pre-Christ. Who knows the ultimate fate of those individuals? I sure dont, and neither do you. We have what some people through history assume happened, but its by no means written in stone. Well, maybe literally it is. Perhaps, as I feel, God's displays of power in those times was much more vulgar, and therefore the burden of proof needed to inspire righteousness was much less what it is now. Also, it seems to me that God choose the perfect time to implement the "plan of salvation." Look at the ripple effect. It utterly and completely changed the world. Look at us, 2000 years later still discussing and debating the significance of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny Wonny Posted October 25, 2008 #24 Share Posted October 25, 2008 If by 'God' you're refering to "The Creator", Then "I've heard many say that 'it' is the only thing that is perfect". But if 'God' is just a another man, then I'd say "No one's perfect", And end with that saying "No one knows that hand of God". They say that Life Is The struggle, So maybe that's why there's no help from the first being in existence, Or maybe it's just not a powerful as everybody thinks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted October 25, 2008 Author #25 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Change can occur perfectly. Thus, perfection can change perfectly. Perfection is not stagnant. Stagnation is imperfect. "God never changes" if taken in the wrong context is a false assumption. Creation was a change. God became superior to his creation, before the creation's existence, God could not be superior to his creation. bee eff I'd be interested in 'god never changes' as being taken out of context..can you elaborate thank you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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