reikki and other healing type arts

[Mbyte]

This documentary will be something no true sceptic or scientist can ignore.

Edited November 3, 2008 by Mbyte

[Mattshark]

This documentary will be something no true sceptic or scientist can ignore.

I can promise you no scientist accepts a documentary as evidence unless of course it is on the errancy on documentaries. No clinic study, no evidence. Simple as.

Videos can very easily be fact and no measurements can be made. So I am sorry but a documentary is meaningless.

I think you need to look closer into scientific standards and methodology if you believe what you have written.

[eight bits]

Of course, I can only agree with you, Matt, that the gold standard for treatment assessment is a clinical trial. Anything short of that is, at best, a reason to perform a clinical trial.

I do take exception, however, to your broadbrush use of the loaded term "alternative" medicine or therapy. Therapeutic Touch, which you brought up earlier, and especially in the context of its use by nurses in service to patients under their care in conventional settings, is plainly adjuvant, not alternative.

In the absence of clinical trial, danger lies in both directions: there is a risk in not doing what may be effective just as there is a risk in doing what may be ineffective. That there are two kinds of risk, not one, is especially urgent to remember when the practice is in itself harmless, and the setting is clinical, so there is no issue of delaying other avenues of healing.

[Mattshark]

Of course, I can only agree with you, Matt, that the gold standard for treatment assessment is a clinical trial. Anything short of that is, at best, a reason to perform a clinical trial.

I do take exception, however, to your broadbrush use of the loaded term "alternative" medicine or therapy. Therapeutic Touch, which you brought up earlier, and especially in the context of its use by nurses in service to patients under their care in conventional settings, is plainly adjuvant, not alternative.

In the absence of clinical trial, danger lies in both directions: there is a risk in not doing what may be effective just as there is a risk in doing what may be ineffective. That there are two kinds of risk, not one, is especially urgent to remember when the practice is in itself harmless, and the setting is clinical, so there is no issue of delaying other avenues of healing, statements like the one from Razers link can be dangerous.

I really don't mean alternative in a loaded way. Massage is considered to be under that title and I have had that for muscular injuries. I do object to lies about science as posted earlier however.

The major problem for reiki is that there is no standard for it and a great deal of variation in it. With out any standard it is not going to be taken seriously.

As for TT, well being touched is naturally calming, that I understand. But claiming 'mystical healing powers' from it is a very different thing.

Razer if you have to believe it to see it there is a real problem.

[Razer0]

Scientifically proven or not, I will not call reiki and other forms of chi a load of bolloks mainly because I have had personal hands-on experience with it. Its like your body telling you that youre hungry but you deny that or other feelings and call it lies because science cant prove you had that feeling (or in my case, experience).

Im not shutting down current day science, but theres a lot that they dont know yet. I dont see a problem believing in all possibilities

[Mbyte]

It's an experiemnt that will be documented by camera. Thus documentary. I'm not a qualified scientist so I can't use the term clinical study. I suppose "Super Size Me" the documentary about Mc Donalds done by Morgan Spurlock certainly had it's effect. I'm sure the documentary I'm producing will be taken seriously.

Edited November 3, 2008 by Mbyte

[Mattshark]

It's an experiemnt that will be documented by camera. Thus documentary. I'm not a qualified scientist so I can't use the term clinical study. I suppose "Super Size Me" the documentary about Mc Donalds done by Morgan Spurlock certainly had it's effect. I'm sure the documentary I'm producing will be taken seriously.

Not in the scientific and medical world it won't.

[puridalan]

For someone that's done reiki you didn't even spell the name right -.-

But yes, to me it has a very simple explination. Reiki is not some religious practice, though some try to make it that way, rather it is the perception and the feeling of sensations and observing them at a 'whole other level' most people don't. The reason this is done through 'meditation' or rather being aware of processing thoughts you can actually see steps that you do normally that you miss through the daily hassals in life. There is no 'power' involved at least I believe that, and I too have done the classes as well, and I love to go because the energy I get from people and give others. That is mainly due to the open circuit you allow yourself and others, that's why I enjoy it because even though anxious tension can arise it can be relieved or at least put out in the open. Not like in daily society where a lot of people are all trying to keep themselves glued together which can make one have sensory overload, anxiety, and aggression.

[puridalan]

As for the hands getting hot, let me explain that in a clear manner.

This is not vodoo humans can manipulate their energy temp, especially with methods like biofeedback. So, with concentration especially in reiki (one is concentrating) you can make your hands get hotter, and when you are more aware of your surrondings you will notice minute detials like the heat of another body, what it feels like, the intensity of natural vibrations ect.

Again this is no power, this is an alternative used to explore the amazing human mind, but furthermore being able to understand ones own objections. Too often in life do we lose ourselves, by prioritizing what we think is important (or percieved) by being able to understand ones perceptions even sensations you can 'zoom out' and reflect thus changing your habits.

Reiki does not make you lose weight, get rid of cancer ect, what it does is allows to act as an enforcer on your actions. By pre-mediating or zoning away from the issue you can either take time to examine more or less examination to let other bits of reality hit you.

When I go into nursing I will use theraputic touch or rather Reiki on patients that allow it, with a consent form of course. The reason why this works, is humans need affection they need to be understood. When you give time to a patient with physical touch you understand them and connect powerful memories, and not only learn but memories are created or strengthened through the Amygdala. Thus, my own random question makes me wonder do strong empaths have a really good memory than the average being? But not to get distracted, I feel that most doctors do not spend enough time with their patients today, hence curing a symptom not the actual issue.

To cure most illness, it isn't a flick of a magic wand. It's a lifestyle change. Thus taking a lot of time to sit and be with the patient hands on touch induces this, but it isn't short term, hi get some drugs...alright life is good have a nice day. If only it did work out that nicely, but of course short term actions don't actually validate prescription industries rationalizations ha-ha. In short Reiki can help improve life by understanding it from all aspects, understanding a deeper 'step' to help one grow. One of the most common things of depression is because the individual does not create changes. Alternatives are numerous and basically infinite, to provoke change, one can never be fully enlightened through one method alone.

Being open minded helps, of course being skeptic is good, just be careful not to become so skeptic as to refute basically repressing own enlightening thoughts and thinking you're getting the bargain for repressing someone elses thoughts...just a thought

Edited November 3, 2008 by puridalan

[Mbyte]

Not in the scientific and medical world it won't.

Maybe not but it will grab the attention of people who can't be helped by doctors. It will definatly grab the attention of people in Ireland because there might as well be no hospitals in Ireland. I don't know how many women died because of super slow and mass failure to diagnose breast cancer. Cystic Fybrosis is all over Ireland and that can't be cured only half treated. According to puridalan it seems that reiki is only a method to communicate with people in a world of voice recordings, paper work, internet. Fair enough but it still does nothing for people with mutple syrosis. These people just have to put up with their condition. They have to hope that they don't become bed ridden and they have to try and live a life though the condition. I find it amazing how discouraging you are about my attempt to prove a seemgly effective form of alternative medicine. You should welcome such attempts. What if Chi Kung could treat these conditions but I listend to you and said to myself. "Oh well... how stupid of me to try an alternative medicine and see if it would treat such illnesses" Forget the scientists and the medical community. They will realise it's affectiveness once less people start going to thier doctors cured instead of going for the treatment of their symtoms. Obviously If the Chi Kung turns out to be a shambles then the documentary will be scrapped or else it will turn into a debunking documentary and I hope it won't. I know it won't.

[eight bits]

Then, Mbyte, if that is your goal, I have some advice which you will not take.

You need an attitude adjustment. Science is only the latest expression of a millennia-in-the-making expansion of consciousness first granted to a small group of socially marginal people living on the fringes of what was once their known world.

The core creed is that I know nothing about the world, save for what I learn while trying to prove myself mistaken, with heroic effort, and utterly fail. Most of that is probably wrong, too.

To live in witness to that creed, Mbyte, is spiritual attainment. That is exactly extinguishing the ego in order to see past oneself to what is really there. If scientists could combine that with humility, then they would be Bodhisatvas. Some have, and are.

Your sig quote is a mantra. Learn it and live it. Applying it to the matter at hand:

I find it amazing how discouraging you are about my attempt to prove a seemgly effective form of alternative medicine.

There is no "prove that." There is "see whether." The path to enlightenment is to "disprove that" and fail.

Obviously If the Chi Kung turns out to be a shambles then the documentary will be scrapped or else it will turn into a debunking documentary and I hope it won't. I know it won't.

Then Matt does you a great favor to discourage you. You are wasting your time.

But turnabout is fair play. He is wasting his. Although with any luck, I may be wrong.

[Mbyte]

Then, Mbyte, if that is your goal, I have some advice which you will not take.

You need an attitude adjustment. Science is only the latest expression of a millennia-in-the-making expansion of consciousness first granted to a small group of socially marginal people living on the fringes of what was once their known world.

The core creed is that I know nothing about the world, save for what I learn while trying to prove myself mistaken, with heroic effort, and utterly fail. Most of that is probably wrong, too.

To live in witness to that creed, Mbyte, is spiritual attainment. That is exactly extinguishing the ego in order to see past oneself to what is really there. If scientists could combine that with humility, then they would be Bodhisatvas. Some have, and are.

Your sig quote is a mantra. Learn it and live it. Applying it to the matter at hand:

There is no "prove that." There is "see whether." The path to enlightenment is to "disprove that" and fail.

Then Matt does you a great favor to discourage you. You are wasting your time.

But turnabout is fair play. He is wasting his. Although with any luck, I may be wrong.

Ok. I get a bit worked up with sceptics.

[Razer0]

Mbyte, you're on a path that you have obviously chose for yourself and feels that it is so right for you, yes? Then I encourage you to carry on with it! I have full support of what you're trying to do so please, dont let the skeptics get to you. Just think of the positive and what joy may lie ahead in its outcome.

You and your work are in my thoughts - I feel very strongly about what you're trying to do

[snappydragon]

I thought the video was very interesting with the acupuncturist. He seemed to be very affective. I am not advocating reiki or alternative medicine as a replacement for actual dr's care, especially for children. But as an alternative, if it works for an individual then now one else has a place to judge. If people are so skeptic then they should try it themselves rather than just saying it isn't so. I would like to see the documentory. Thank you all for your responses.

[Pauly Dangerously]

I have had experience as both a healer and healed in pranic healing for 10 years now. I hold that what I have seen in that time has shown that alternative healing is always, first and foremost to be a compliment to conventional medicine, not a replacement. I have seen people try chemo for cancer and have little or no success, but in conjunction with the pranic healing, go into full remission. I have also personally seen both a second degree burn (on my own arm) and a cut on another persons arm completely heal in a matter of minutes. In the case of the burn from a full blister, to a red mark, to regular coloration, with no accompanying pain, in a matter of 20 minutes. I watched a cut go from bleeding, to a red line to completely healed in 10 minutes, with my own eyes. Sometimes it doesn't work, sometimes it works so well it's scary. There is a lot of philosophy that comes with doing this type of healing. Openness to the healer, training and faith have a lot to do with results. Scientifically speaking, all I can say is that medical doctors with experience have said, "I don't know what happened, but I can't say that I have seen these results before. Keep doing what youa re doing. It's working." Just my observations.

Edited November 5, 2008 by Paul Wagner

[Mattshark]

I have had experience as both a healer and healed in pranic healing for 10 years now. I hold that what I have seen in that time has shown that alternative healing is always, first and foremost to be a compliment to conventional medicine, not a replacement. I have seen people try chemo for cancer and have little or no success, but in conjunction with the pranic healing, go into full remission. I have also personally seen both a second degree burn (on my own arm) and a cut on another persons arm completely heal in a matter of minutes. In the case of the burn from a full blister, to a red mark, to regular coloration, with no accompanying pain, in a matter of 20 minutes. I watched a cut go from bleeding, to a red line to completely healed in 10 minutes, with my own eyes. Sometimes it doesn't work, sometimes it works so well it's scary. There is a lot of philosophy that comes with doing this type of healing. Openness to the healer, training and faith have a lot to do with results. Scientifically speaking, all I can say is that medical doctors with experience have said, "I don't know what happened, but I can't say that I have seen these results before. Keep doing what youa re doing. It's working." Just my observations.

Then why can't you show this in clinic trails or even under controlled conditions. Feel free to back your claims up.

[Razer0]

Then why can't you show this in clinic trails or even under controlled conditions. Feel free to back your claims up.

http://tlovereiki.com/Clinical_Trials.html

More? http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct/search?te...p;submit=Search

More? http://www.thereikicenter.net/reiki_information.html

More? http://www.reikiresearchfoundation.org/msstudies.htm

Edited November 5, 2008 by Razer0

[Pauly Dangerously]

Then why can't you show this in clinic trails or even under controlled conditions. Feel free to back your claims up.

Try this to start.

http://www.pranichealingoc.com/files/phresearch.pdf

[Mattshark]

http://tlovereiki.com/Clinical_Trials.html

More? http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct/search?te...p;submit=Search

More? http://www.thereikicenter.net/reiki_information.html

Yes and analysis of these trails has found no significant results, or did you decide to ignore that?

Well here is the link again: Reiki: Clinical trails show no signficant results.

And your first link did not just clinical trails and many of these trials where discarded as usfull due to them using subject groups that where too small.

You second link is advertising for subjects not any result.

You last link isn't even science (nor is your first link for that matter).

Not saying it never will, but at present it hasn't.

So how about proving Mr Wagners rather extraordinary claims?

[eight bits]

Thank you, razer. None of your links work. I was able to hack around it.

Your first link points to a conclusory listing of selected papers and a paperback book, on a commercial website selling Reiki-related products and services. None of the "blurbs" speak to the methods or findings of these studies. In some cases, not even the clinical goal of the study is given (a "beneficial effect" on torture survivors - like what?).

Matt has already posted a recent attempted meta-analysis of Reiki which was unable to reach a finding because of the scattershot quality of the literature, and widespread methodological lapses in the studies under analysis. The analysts also documented the comprehensive, rather than selective, character of their search. Matt's study appeared in a scientific journal, not a marketing site.

Your link, then, is simply unresponsive to what was sought.

Your second link reports the progress of six clinical trials completed or in process. Of the three completed trials, no results are given.

The third link assures us that there is interest in holding clinical trials.

The fourth link is an apparently unpublished compilation of 13 "case studies." Well, it would be 13, except that not all 13 show up in the results. Only five cases make it to the 9-month follow up. What happened?

Please Google "cargo cult science."

[Mattshark]

Try this to start.

http://www.pranichealingoc.com/files/phresearch.pdf

Erm that is not in science, evidence or a clinical study.

[Pauly Dangerously]

Try this to start.

http://www.pranichealingoc.com/files/phresearch.pdf

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT0010...T%5D&rank=1

[Mattshark]

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT0010...T%5D&rank=1

Not sure you quite get this. That is a (closed) request for applicants, not the results of a clinical trail that show a significant result.

[Pauly Dangerously]

Erm that is not in science, evidence or a clinical study.

So no offered evidence is going to make sense to you? A presentation by doctors giving evidence of clinical trials, isn't science? Make this easy on me, what would you consider tangible evidence?

[Pauly Dangerously]

Not sure you quite get this. That is a (closed) request for applicants, not the results of a clinical trail that show a significant result.

Yeah you're right, you might actually have to look something up. Instead of sitting back waiting for something to hit you, you might want to actually try to see if these had any results. You claim an awful lot without doing any research yourself.

Edited November 5, 2008 by Paul Wagner