Save us.

[Cadetak]

Sorry but I just have to be a smart aleck and respond to this comment by showing you the "Impossible" :

I hate you

[Karlis]

~... (snip) ...

... Though in order for me to truly live my philosophy, and not be a hypocrite, I should become a vegetarian; and perhaps I will.

Wootloops, what would you do if it was proved that vegetation is sentient and feels pain when damaged?

A new amended law in Switzerland protects the dignity of vegetation.

Over a decade ago, an amendment was added to the Swiss constitution in order to defend the dignity of all creatures — including vegetation — against unwanted repercussions of genetic engineering. The amendment was turned into law and is known as the Gene Technology Act. However the law itself didn’t say anything specific about plants, until recently, when the law was amended to include them.

http://planetsave.com/blog/2008/10/18/swit...tion-of-plants/

Kind regards,

Karlis

[Wootloops]

Wootloops, what would you do if it was proved that vegetation is sentient and feels pain when damaged?

I highly doubt that it ever would be proven lol, but if it were, then I would still have to eat them. We can only be as moral as we can be. This is why we see that as our societies have progressed, and we have become more prosperous, we have had the leeway to extend protections and morality to other animals and in other walks of life that for the sake of society, could not have been allowed before. This is what I meant in saying that we should hold just about all sentient life in equal value, so long as an impossible situation does not come about so as to make us unable to do so. Me, for example, not being able to survive without eating plants, would make it impossible for me to not to. I have to withhold moral judgment because the situation makes it so that I have no other choice.

http://planetsave.com/blog/2008/10/18/swit...tion-of-plants/

Kind regards,

Karlis

Rofl. The biologist got it right when he asked "Where does it stop?" In a situation like this, we have to draw an arbitrary line somewhere. For me, and I think this is the most rational position to take, I draw it at sentience. When the organism can think, then I begin to assign moral value to it. The plant doesn't care that it is getting chopped in half because it is incapable of sentient thought. But who knows, maybe they have a point, and I just don't see it.

[+Link of Hyrule]

As an interesting aside, Hare Krishna's have believed that plants have feelings just like the rest of us, and have believed so for many years (not sure when it first came into use, but probably somewhere near its inception at a guess, if all life reincarnates). They are just a different form of reincarnated life that for whatever reason the previous life warranted a turn into plant matter.

Hare Krishna's are strict vegetarians and believe that killing animals for food is wrong. Killing plants is also wrong but you need to eat, and so Lord Krishna in his mercy and wisdom created a set of rituals to cleanse vegetarian food from all uncleanliness before it is consumed. If these rituals are not kept, a person is held responsible for the harm they bring on the harmless fruit and vegetables.

Just thought I'd add this little bit in for Karlis and Wootloops

Regards,

[Mr Walker]

Thank you for a detailed and thoughtful response. i have a sense weve been in this position before.ie our pov are so differnt wwe dont comprehend each other, making logical debate difficult but i wil try to rely personally and as honestly as i can to the questions you raise. you must appreciate that the bottom line for me id that i have physically encountered god inmany aspects. This makes my viewpoint different and perhaps incomprehensible to one who has not, although a person who believes i absolute faith might possibly hold a similar mind set.

name='Wootloops' date='Nov 4 2008, 12:23 AM' post='2587484']

That'd odd. So do you actually think that Jesus rose from the dead? Do you think both that Jesus rose from the dead and that Mohammad flew into heaven on a winged horse? Or do you think neither, and that all concepts of God have some innate truth in it, but that none of them, including your own, are the complete truth?

Well of course i believe both of those things. I have seen and experienced real physical miracles on a par with those. I have seen god manipulate matter energy and time. Thus i am more disposed to believe he can do other simple manipulations and make them visible to others. I see these as a demonstration of science or technology either innate to gods mature or a learned physical/technical ability.

The decision between the dog and the baby should be a real one. By dropping the dog, you are discriminating by species. It's similar to being racist. A white racist holding onto a black baby and a white baby would drop the black baby. I don't care if you have black skin, or if you have four legs and fur. I care about what's in your head, because that's really who you are.

I have no problem with discriminating by species. Due to their sentience, humans are a special species. Also i am human. Our sentience creates a duty and a responsibility to care for all animals and the ecosystem of the earth, but our primary duty is to ourselves because maintining human sentience and diversity increases the potentiality(s) available in the universe.

THe colour of a persons skin does not worry me, because it is purely cosmetic , but a human will normally become more sentient than a dog therefore save the human

When I am looking at the dog and the baby, I am looking at two minds. One mind is more sentient than the other, and in this case it would be the dog's. And this isn't a decision I like. The situation is an impossible one, but a choice has to be made. No matter what choice I make, it will be a bad one. I can drop the dog, I can drop the baby, or I can hang on as long as I can and drop them both. No matter what I do, I come out of it feeling horrible.

I might feel horrible too, or i might appreciate that i had done all i could and neither i nor anyone else can blame me for failing if i have done that. You are incorrect about the dogs superior sentience sentience implies potential The child will develop full human sentience, the dog full canine sentience I find no logical or emotional argument that the dogs sentience is greater.

This may be a problem associated with your concept of free will. I see potentialities existing that you do not, because you see only determinism. It is why i am implacably opposed to abortion, other than when the mothers life is threatened, or when the child has no potential to develop into a functioning human being. It doesnt matter what the level of sentience is at the time of death A potential 90 years or so of human sentience with all the potentialities that entails is being destroyed, and along with i,t a multitude of possibilities and potentialities.

Of course, if I choose to save the dog, I become shamed by all of society; a society that has an innate human bias towards life. If I choose to save the baby, I would be praised. A typical person would not have a seconds thought after dropping the dog, even though they should. The dog had a mind, a mind that likely understood its situation far greater than the baby ever possibly could.

This is true. The fact that you choose to disagree is of some concern to me. You are entitled to your beliefs, but the fact that they are at odds with the standard ethtical /moral codes of humanity should ring some alarm bells and cause you to examine your own beliefs as much as those of the rest of humanity.

The situation is similar to that of having to choose between dropping a normal person, or a mentally handicapped person. In this situation, society would expect the normal person to willingly sacrifice himself for the mentally handicapped person, but what do you do if they both want to live?

That would be a much tougher call for me. Im not sure i understood you because i think society would expect you to drop the handicapped person. If forced to I would do this also, but i would examine all options first, including risking my own life to save both. However again one can only do what it is possible to do, and no guilt attahes or should be felt,if you have done your best.

So do you think that those who do not follow Christianity, will not gain immortality or would be separated from God, or face whichever punishment/reward situation you believe in? If you do think one of those things, then how could you be okay with that? Especially with you yourself saying that if you were born in an Islamic culture, then you would likely be a Muslim.

If you are connected with god whatever your faith or belief you will be saved. im not used to even christian churches which claim only christains or a certain denomination of christian will be saved. The new earth will have many people in it who never heard of the christian god. it will also have people of all faiths. They will need to acknowledge god however and basically to have a highly developed spiritual nature.

If I saw a miracle, I would be awestruck! I don't know how that could possibly destroy you.

You dont think awestruck could kill you? If god physically enters your life. Your old self will be destroyed. That is inevitable. The question is whether you can develop a sustanable and viable new self in accordance with gods presence in your life.

The existence of God would not change my decision with the dog and the baby. I would be horrified to know that this God sees us as special over any of his other supposed creations. If animals and humans both go to live on after death, then my decision should remain the same. If however, only humans live on after death, then the decision to drop the baby becomes the only moral decision. Conversely, if animals lived after death, and not humans, then the decision could only possibly be to drop the dog.

You are constructin god as you would like him to be around your own set of value systems. God is a sentient being He reaches out and interacts with us via our sentience (whether you see that as humans inventing god or llike me that our sentience in part is a communication facility which enables contact with god on many levels). Dogs have no apparent knowledge of god nor any ability to communicate with him. As i said, our sentience gives us a special and unique responsibility to animals. Animals cannot commit good or evil They are not even aware of the concepts, let alone capable of forming the intent to act in such ways. Thus god is both redundant and unneccesary for animals. God may well ressurect dogs. There will be dogs on the new earth, but like humans their physical nature s will be different. Humans wil have ,as part of their self awareness, a knowledge of what has happened to them and why, animals will not

And concerning abortion, the choice is even simpler. With and without God's existence it remains the same. The fetus before 22 weeks has no capacity for thought or pain, and if a girl's life is in danger and she wants it removed, then there should be absolutely no moral block at all in removing it. However, even past the point where the fetus begins to develop the capacity for thought and pain, the decision should remain with the mother. If the baby lives, she dies; if she lives, the baby dies. Either way, someone dies, and the mother is the host and the most sentient creature. And besides, that far down the line, and I'm not sure about this, the baby should be able to survive being taken out.

I am not as sure as you about the thought or pain, but even if that is demonstrably true, it is irrelevant, for the reason outlined earlier. You would not advocate it ok to kill an adult human without any pain or suffering. A baby human has the same nature, genetics and potential as an adult. It deserves exactly the same standards of legal protection.

As a adult human the mothers right to life (but only her right to life) outweighs the child's rights to life. No other rights of the mother outweigh the childs basic right to be born

What about people who have faith in multiple gods? It sounds like you're saying that as long as you believe in God in any form, then you are good to go. But what about people who are polytheistic, such as Hindus, who are not believing in God, but are believing in multiple gods?

THeir might be multiple gods, although the evidence suggests that in our part of the universe at least there is only one god, because his form and function indicate that "he" is integrated into the fabric of the universe itself. Some gods are pure human constructs based on philosophical ideals. However any faith which is based on contact with god, especially where that is verifiable (for instance through some continued cultural history of contact) is probably likely to be genuine and thus pleasing to god. If god judges the hearts of people then it is what is in their hearts, and how they act on that hearts belief which will decide their fate, not precisely how they view a god who is quite difficult to perceive physically with any accuracy.

And me, even though I have never killed anyone, never even got into a fight with anyone, am damned because I don't have faith? Because I choose not to believe in God on the basis of seeing no evidence for his existence, I am damned? How can you be morally okay with this? If I were in your place, and you were in mine, I would think that to be unjust. I could not morally follow a god who would damn you for such a thing.

In my belief system how can you be saved by something you dont have faith, in or believe in. Thats just silly. Believe in, and act on that belief, and you are saved. Dont believe in ,or fail to act on that belief and you may not be saved. Again, it depends how god reads your heart and its intent.

I cant see why a logical person can be the least bit angry or upset for not being offered salvation by an entity he/she does not believe exists.

Are you sure you've thought that viewpoint through logically?

How can god save anyone who even refuses to accept his existence. Yes belief/ faith is the lowest common denominator for salvation (unless you have never heard of, or experienced any form of god, or are incapable of making a choice.) Eg young children are saved by gods grace. Those who never "knew" god may be saved through the nature of their heart and how they live.

[Mr Walker]

I couldnt put all this in one post so had to split it.

You are telling me to believe in any God whatsoever, even though I have seen no evidence for any of them on the basis that if I do not, then I will be damned or not granted immortality. But, on what basis can you tell me that anything will happen to me? If you only believe in Christianity because it is culturally convenient for you, then how can you look at anything in there, and speak any of it to anyone? If God never personally told you that those of no faith shall be punished, then you should not think it because the Bible is just one text out of who knows how many.

Im sorry if you got that impression but im not telling you to believe anything. Im saying that i encountered god, and that i chose the bible as an appropriate cultural reference book and contact record for me. What you choose to do with your life is up to you. God has both saved my life physically on numerous occasions and demonstrated the physical ability to ressurect both my body and soul. I owe him for the first and i have good reason to believe his offer on the second.

Why are you even reading the Bible if what's in it is different from other religious texts? You say that all paths lead to God, and so you can't believe anything in the Bible if another religion somewhere contradicts what it is saying; or even if just some random person who believes in God says something contradictory. If you say that all of these paths are legitimate, then you shouldn't believe anything in the Bible over anything any other religious text or religious person says or believes.

The bible offers me a lot of things It shows that spiritual wisdom and wealth is equally if not more important than physical/ material wisdom and wealth. So it informs me on my personal need for spirituality and maintaining a physical and spiritual connection with god. I imagine most religious books offer the same. Second it explains the physical need for gods laws which impact on cultures and individuals. it links this to a spiritual sense of self and the need to surrender a lot of ones seelf will to the superior wisdom and advice of god. Everything fro my diet to how to love my parents and my wife, along with the duties i owe to god and to the state are carefully set out throughout the bible.

For me it works in every aspect of my life, making me a happy safe and responsible citizen but of course much more than that a person so filled with the spirit of god that negative forces like fear, anger, lust, envy etc have little space to grow in my life, while love, joy wonder care and compassion along with great physical and spiritual empowerment fill it and crowd out the negative forces. I do not ever have to worry about money my health, or the love /fidelity of my wife, because all things are in gods hands. That does not mean i am rich, in perfect health, or have a fantastic sex life. It simply means i never have to worry about any of those things.

Just a curious question: Does he actually talk back? Do you actually hear him? Like a voice separate voice speaking words?

lol Thats a complex question. God sometimes sends physical angels.Some times he performs physical miracles, manipulating energy and matter. Sometimes he sends complete and accurate prophetic dreams. Sometimes he sends a quick verbal warning(and some of those warnings are sent internally while others are spoken out loud, and one even came over the radio(which at the time had no power source)

Some of these things are seen and heard by others than myself at the time(one of the factors which leads me to dismiss the possibily of pure delusion or hallucinations to explain my experiences.) Sometimes he works through other humans. Sometimes he provides physical responses to direct questions Other times he provides an unusual response to "prayer"

I dont actually pray for things but god knows what i need and gives me them. He does not always give what you want, but in my experience all my life even before i knew it he has given me what i need.

I have dozens of examples, but one classic is this. My wife is not very social while i am. We were walking along the beach shell collecting one day when i asked god Wy did you make her so much of a hermit ? Caould you not change her/ make her more sociable?

At that moment i saw on the sand a small hermit crab which had come out of its shell and died on the sand just above the low tide zone. Even as i loed down on it, the voice i have come to recognise as gods spoke to me and said. "Yes of course i could change your wife. Then the old self, the hermit would come out of her shell. But at the same time, that self would diejust as the little hermit crab on the sand died without the protection of its shell. You would have an entirely different wife from the one you fell in love with.

Tel you what. How about, instead of changing your wife, why dont i change you. Ill make you more patient, tolerant and understanding of her, so that her sense of social isolation does not worry you so much"

And before i could really answer him he did so. My attiutde reversed completely and instantly. I understood, again, that i loved my wife how she was, rather than how i wanted her to be and that many of her strengths were inversely proportionall or connected to what i saw as her weaknesses. I understood that to change one part would be to change all and to change utterly the person she was. Ii knew i had no right to ask that. But also i was relieved of any anger, worry, or concern for her. I understood that while very different to me, she was perfectly happy as she was, and that was the important thing

Those men on the planes of 9/11 were damned sure they were acting out God's will. Their hearts and minds were as converted and surrendered to God as they can get. They trusted God so much that they sacrificed themselves for him. Do you think these men were not faithful and deserving of God's reward after death?

I dont know. I have an opinion, but what i do know is that we are not allowed to judge, because we are not competent to do so. Only god sees all, knows all and has the ability to fairly judge the heart of any man.

People can do whatever they like if they believe that what they are doing is God willing.

This is the danger. My personal belief is that we must love our fellow man as ourselves(and that we must fully understand and love ourselves to do this)

The way we treat each other should hinge on this principle, so god rarely asks us to hurt ourselves or others and any voice etc telling us to do so is most probably not the voice of god.

How are we to exercise any will at all, if we have no base to exercise anything on? You only start to choose when something happens that causes you to make a decision. You then utilize past experiences, the current situation, and future predictions to calculate your decision. Every variable in your environment has an effect on your choice.

Do you not agree with this?

No. Its not how my life works at all, and philosophicaly it simply doesnt make sense to me. But thats just me

In Islam it is okay to have sex with any girl who has had her period. Mohammad, who lived his life in the perfect wisdom of God, married a 6 year old, and had sex with her at 9. Being that the Qu'ran is supposed to be timeless, pedophilia should be legal in today's world.

Is that contradictory to your experiences?

I think many followers of islam would disagree with your technical and moral interpretation of this concept, but i am not persoanlly familiar with it to argue specifically. The bible has some laws which modern women see as limiting women but which were actually instituted to offer physical protection in the societies of the tiimes. MOst biblical laws served good social purposes. The fact that societies change does not necessarily render them wrong or even obsolete.However i concede that where breaking those laws no longer physically endangers the life of indiiduals, or of the society, then the death penalty is no longer an appropriate punishment.

Thus it is still wrong, foolish and dangerous for a young person to disrespect/ignore the wisdom of their elders. IN biblical days, to refuse to be an active part of a family unit could condem that unit to death or economic slavery. Thus death was an appropriate punishment to protect families and society from disobedient youths. This is no longer the case. But a society allows its youth to run unchecked at its peril even today.

By saying that only the heart of the spiritual values of every religion are what matters, you are essentially saying that all of religion, including your own, is obsolete

.Religion is a human construct. It supports mens desire for ritual, dressing. up bonding ceremonies etc.None of that is likely to become obsolete as it is an integral part of human nature.It has lasted from cromagnons to the information age. I am sure that in 200 years the people who sail our generational (or even faster than light) ships between the galaxies of space, will have their own religious rituals and ceremonies. They will still be spiritual people, and they will still acknowledge god(although they may be closer to understanding his true form and function than we are)

So do you actually even believe in Christianity? And as I said before, if you don't, and you say that only faith matters, and that it doesn't matter what form it comes in, then where do you get the authority to say that faith is what is necessary? And if you do believe in Christianity, then you must believe that the other faiths are wrong, and that your path is the right one; or else you don't believe it.

I personally believe in christianity as a good spiritual and practical path with huge benefits to individuals and societies. But it is not an exclusive spiritual path nor the only successful spiritual model for societies Other faiths and models offer diferent but equal benefits both spiritually and socialy

All I need to do is point out Sweden and compare it with Saudi Arabia. Sweden is one of the happiest countries in the world, with the highest, or almost highest levels of human development in the world. If that isn't human potential being fulfilled, then I don't know what is.

Ive heard this argument before. Sweden along with scandinavian countries adopted a sociaalist model of society. Today families require 2 peole to work one to pay the social wage(high tax base) The other to pay the family expenses. I know many people who left sweden becuase of this to seek beter opportunities oversea. It may depend on waht sort of society you like how happy you are. I dont know whow spiritual swedes are and how much that contributes to happiness. What i do know is that in our societies as we "develop and get richer"ther is little indication that peolpe are happier Work stresse family work commitments mortages etc all worry people. If you are one with god those things do not need to concern you at all

Islamic countries have very low crime rates and in many ways are more functional than western societies. But i agree Many islamic countries did not go through the 3 or 4 centuries of agricultural and industrial revolution which transformed the nature of western societies. .WEstern attitudes to women and children have been driven by the change in our economic base more than any change in basic moralities or ethics They are still tribal peole and connected to a religious law customs etc which does not fit modern societies. This will change, They dont have to change their basic beliefs or sense of what is right or wrong, but inevitably as their coutries modernise intellectually as well as materially their interpretations and punishments will change

Saudi Arabia on the other hand, is stuck in the middle ages, still stoning rape victims to death.

As above

Now, you may be talking about some undefined, unknown promise of potential from God....but if that potential is just having faith in God, then I don't see the spectacular fulfilling of potential.

True . Sadly few individuals or societies are truly transformed by the power of the spirit (or of the spiritual potential within all humans) The few individuals who display this, however, show what a difference it can make, and by inference if a whole society lived by these practices and principles then it would be transformed also

Sweden vs. Saudi Arabia

I rest my case.

Why should I accept that he is wiser, more loving, and more compassionate than I, when all he has done is claim it, and has done nothing to prove it? Especially considering that I have seen no evidence for his existence.

You just say to accept it. Well, why should I accept it? And I don't see anything to accept from. You are telling me to accept candy from the driver in a car I cannot see and do not know.

Read what any spiritual texts say/Look at people who actually live by them( dont have to be christian simply any spiritual person)Again im not telling you to do anything. I am saying that i have found the spirit to be an utterly transforming thing, and i dont see any reason why it could not do the same for you)

Edited November 4, 2008 by Mr Walker

[Keldario]

Go ahead, wait for some outside force to save you. Oh yeah, the bus doesn't come this way.

The god you are looking to save you, is yourself. Divinity is your birthright. You want to be saved? You want this planet to be saved? Then save it. Don't give your responsibility to someone else to make yourself happy. If you want something done the right way, do it yourself. You have the power. See something you don't like? Don't fight it, giving it your attention only strengthens it. Since you are god, your attention gives whatever you focus on, your power. Instead of focusing on what is darkness, focus on what brings light. Like helping others to realize that they too can have freedom. To make choices that lead them to the future they desire.

YOU ARE NOT POWERLESS IN EXISTENCE!

Edited November 4, 2008 by Keldario

[stargazer123]

Hello religious people. As you know, there are a lot of heathens out there. All of which, according to most mainstream religions and religious interpretations, will suffer eternally for our insufferable misgivings. Help us come to the light then eh? Surely, because your religion is the absolute objective truth of existence and reality, the correctness of your religion should be obvious to all.

Please now, show us how your religion is the truth. What evidence do you have to show? How do you know that your religion is true? Though, rather than how you know, the question should be how should we know? Personal experience and emotional appeal mean nothing to people who have not experienced them. If your religion is really true, then there must be something more, more than faith.

You can tell me to have faith, and maybe I would try it, and maybe I would feel God, and then believe your religion to be true. But...what happens when I look across the world at other religions, and examine their stories of faith, which are just as genuine as yours and mine. What do I have to say to that? What do you have to say to that? Your phenomenon of faith is found in just about every religion in the world other than yours. So faith then, means nothing, and should play no part in the decision to hold a religion as absolute truth.

Oh but maybe, with that faith, God will give me an experience of him. A voice maybe, a weird unexplainable feeling, a vision; who knows? This should surely convince me, how could it not right? Well, again, what happens when I just look around; look around at all the other religions and faiths. They all have personal experiences as well, some perhaps, even more profound than yours or mine. There will always be someone who has a more fantastical story than you. What do I say to this? What do you? So really, given that this is absolute truth we're talking about, and the fate of our souls, we really can't gamble on personal experiences either.

What's left? What's left without faith and without personal experience? There has to be something. I really hope that God wouldn't just rest the fate of our souls on faith and personal experience, which are universal throughout the scope of world religions.

This is serious. Not only for me, but for you. Only one religion can be right, if any, and you better hope it is yours. And you better have some damn good reasons for thinking you are right, and you better be willing to share those reasons and evidences, or else you'd be indirectly damning billions of human souls to eternal torture and suffering and shame. The stakes are high, and this is no laughing matter.

Save all of humanity, and prove your religion. If you can't, then what the hell are you doing believing it? Because, as I've explained, your personal experience and faith are far from good enough in determining absolute truth, and the final fate of your everlasting soul.

I believe true faith is the one that leads an individual to their higher path, to be the best they can be without a need to impress that individual faith on others. If your individual faith is true I don't believe the need to save others through your faith exists but I believe the need to help others through your deeds and actions and heart exists if your faith truly exists (without fear)

[TheDreamer]

Hello religious people. As you know, there are a lot of heathens out there. All of which, according to most mainstream religions and religious interpretations, will suffer eternally for our insufferable misgivings. Help us come to the light then eh? Surely, because your religion is the absolute objective truth of existence and reality, the correctness of your religion should be obvious to all.

Please now, show us how your religion is the truth. What evidence do you have to show? How do you know that your religion is true? Though, rather than how you know, the question should be how should we know? Personal experience and emotional appeal mean nothing to people who have not experienced them. If your religion is really true, then there must be something more, more than faith.

You can tell me to have faith, and maybe I would try it, and maybe I would feel God, and then believe your religion to be true. But...what happens when I look across the world at other religions, and examine their stories of faith, which are just as genuine as yours and mine. What do I have to say to that? What do you have to say to that? Your phenomenon of faith is found in just about every religion in the world other than yours. So faith then, means nothing, and should play no part in the decision to hold a religion as absolute truth.

Oh but maybe, with that faith, God will give me an experience of him. A voice maybe, a weird unexplainable feeling, a vision; who knows? This should surely convince me, how could it not right? Well, again, what happens when I just look around; look around at all the other religions and faiths. They all have personal experiences as well, some perhaps, even more profound than yours or mine. There will always be someone who has a more fantastical story than you. What do I say to this? What do you? So really, given that this is absolute truth we're talking about, and the fate of our souls, we really can't gamble on personal experiences either.

What's left? What's left without faith and without personal experience? There has to be something. I really hope that God wouldn't just rest the fate of our souls on faith and personal experience, which are universal throughout the scope of world religions.

This is serious. Not only for me, but for you. Only one religion can be right, if any, and you better hope it is yours. And you better have some damn good reasons for thinking you are right, and you better be willing to share those reasons and evidences, or else you'd be indirectly damning billions of human souls to eternal torture and suffering and shame. The stakes are high, and this is no laughing matter.

Save all of humanity, and prove your religion. If you can't, then what the hell are you doing believing it? Because, as I've explained, your personal experience and faith are far from good enough in determining absolute truth, and the final fate of your everlasting soul.

I cannot save you. Only Jesus Christ can. I'm only a messenger as are all of His followers.

Your choice in the end.

[momentarylapseofreason]

I cannot save you. Only Jesus Christ can. I'm only a messenger as are all of His followers.

Your choice in the end.

Why does god need messengers ?

[MagicJaxon]

I hate you

LOL. Well, I'm a magician. When someone says something is impossible I try to find a way to make it LOOK possible.

But seriously. I'm with you Wootloops. If it's "Truth" then it would be the same for everyone. If any religion is true then there can only be one religion and everyone should believe it to be the truth.

This reminds me another discussion I started a while back here.

[Godsnmbr1]

But seriously. I'm with you Wootloops. If it's "Truth" then it would be the same for everyone. If any religion is true then there can only be one religion and everyone should believe it to be the truth.

That's a good logical start. Now follow it to the next step.

[eight bits]

Why does god need messengers ?

Now, MLOR, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain .

And in all seriousness, really the best question about the whole business of religion that there is, I think. The second best question being why the conspicuously low-rent quality of so many of the messengers currently on offer?

[momentarylapseofreason]

Now, MLOR, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain .

And in all seriousness, really the best question about the whole business of religion that there is, I think. The second best question being why the conspicuously low-rent quality of so many of the messengers currently on offer?

I see you have a Doctor of Thinkology

I always attempt to peek behind the emerald curtain.

[Wootloops]

I might feel horrible too, or i might appreciate that i had done all i could and neither i nor anyone else can blame me for failing if i have done that. You are incorrect about the dogs superior sentience sentience implies potential The child will develop full human sentience, the dog full canine sentience I find no logical or emotional argument that the dogs sentience is greater.

This may be a problem associated with your concept of free will. I see potentialities existing that you do not, because you see only determinism. It is why i am implacably opposed to abortion, other than when the mothers life is threatened, or when the child has no potential to develop into a functioning human being. It doesnt matter what the level of sentience is at the time of death A potential 90 years or so of human sentience with all the potentialities that entails is being destroyed, and along with i,t a multitude of possibilities and potentialities.

I see potentiality as well. I have no idea what the future will bring, and I cannot in any way predict it accurately. The amount of potentialities I see are identical to how many you see. As I said before, from my perspective, I have free will. What I recognize is that potentiality is not reality. There may be an endless amount of potential outcomes, but the one that happens happens, and that's it. If I drop the baby, a potential 90 years of human sentience is indeed lost, but that potential was never a real thing. No happiness was gained, and none lost in those 90 years of potentiality because the potential outcomes thereof never took place.

I can however, see arguments which can be made to suggest that to save the baby may have a more far reaching moral outcome than to save the dog. The infant may become president. That is one potentiality. But the infant may also become the next Hitler. That is also a potentiality. I can also see an argument that I should drop both because they might have a high statistical probability of doing bad things. Or maybe the world is overpopulated, and two less mouths to feed gives everyone else more food.

You can base your decision on just about any potential outcome and rationalize some sort of moral justification for it. These potentialities though, are not reality, and may or may not occur, or may have a certain probability of occuring. In directly basing my decision on which of the creatures will suffer the most due to me dropping them, I am dealing as close to reality as I can.

This is true. The fact that you choose to disagree is of some concern to me. You are entitled to your beliefs, but the fact that they are at odds with the standard ethtical /moral codes of humanity should ring some alarm bells and cause you to examine your own beliefs as much as those of the rest of humanity.

As I said, there is no right or wrong answer here. I don't believe that my decision is anymore correct than someone else's. I am not even sure if dropping the baby is the “right” decision according to what I would value. I see the validity in the arguments from potentiality, and I don't think they are “wrong”, and in certain defined situations they may be “right”.

However, dealing with the question of religion, each one claims absolute truth with an absolute certainty (Though I understand this is not the same with you. You almost view it in the way I view morality.). With morality, I cannot reconsider whether I am right or wrong, because I am neither. With religion, a claim about reality is being made, and it's not being made moderately. To believe a religion to be 100% truth with 100% certainty while the personal experience you have is largely identical to that to the other faiths, and while you all equally have a lack of presentable evidence, just seems unfounded.

If you are connected with god whatever your faith or belief you will be saved. im not used to even christian churches which claim only christains or a certain denomination of christian will be saved. The new earth will have many people in it who never heard of the christian god. it will also have people of all faiths. They will need to acknowledge god however and basically to have a highly developed spiritual nature.

On what basis can you say that faith is what saves you, or that there will be a new Earth? If God didn't tell you this directly, then how are you so certain?

You dont think awestruck could kill you? If god physically enters your life. Your old self will be destroyed. That is inevitable. The question is whether you can develop a sustanable and viable new self in accordance with gods presence in your life.

I can't really see how God ever entering my life would change anything. His existence seems irrelevant to me.

If God told me to be against abortion because it's wrong, I would ask why? All of his arguments would be the same as the pro-life arguments today. There is nothing else he could say. Him proclaiming that it is wrong does not make it wrong. That's God's opinion on it. Even if he is God, I am not going to accept what he says without question, and without the same skepticism that I would treat anyone else with.

You are constructin god as you would like him to be around your own set of value systems. God is a sentient being He reaches out and interacts with us via our sentience (whether you see that as humans inventing god or llike me that our sentience in part is a communication facility which enables contact with god on many levels). Dogs have no apparent knowledge of god nor any ability to communicate with him. As i said, our sentience gives us a special and unique responsibility to animals. Animals cannot commit good or evil They are not even aware of the concepts, let alone capable of forming the intent to act in such ways. Thus god is both redundant and unneccesary for animals. God may well ressurect dogs. There will be dogs on the new earth, but like humans their physical nature s will be different. Humans wil have ,as part of their self awareness, a knowledge of what has happened to them and why, animals will not

If all humans lived after death and all dogs did not, then the decision is really simple. You drop the baby. The baby will get to live on, the dog will not. All of these people who are so certain that the afterlife exists, and that it is solely for humans, should all be dropping the baby. To do otherwise seems blatantly immoral.

And again, how do you know that animals live after death if God did not tell you directly?

I am not as sure as you about the thought or pain, but even if that is demonstrably true, it is irrelevant, for the reason outlined earlier. You would not advocate it ok to kill an adult human without any pain or suffering. A baby human has the same nature, genetics and potential as an adult. It deserves exactly the same standards of legal protection.

An adult human unable to feel any physical pain still feels emotional pain. If the adult human cannot think or feel, then he or she is essentially dead already.

As a adult human the mothers right to life (but only her right to life) outweighs the child's rights to life. No other rights of the mother outweigh the childs basic right to be born

A developing fetus is a parasite to the host mother. It is an organism stealing the nutrients of the host for itself. It reduces the fitness of the mother and is a large threat to her well being. An abortion may be seen as an act of self defense. So long as the fetus is dependent on the host mother, she should have the right to remove it, as it is a parasite. That is why the cutoff date for abortions is after the first signs of sentience occur. Until the fetus is capable of surviving outside of the mother's whom, it is essentially a parasite.

In the same way that you have the right to harm another in self defense, the host mother has the right to expel the parasitic fetus from her body. While I may save a dog hanging over a cliff, if another dog is charging at me ready to bite, I am going to kick it in the face.

The unborn child should not have the right to be born over the mother's desire to have it removed because that unborn child is reliant on the mother for survival and growth. That's basically how they view it medically.

THeir might be multiple gods, although the evidence suggests that in our part of the universe at least there is only one god, because his form and function indicate that "he" is integrated into the fabric of the universe itself. Some gods are pure human constructs based on philosophical ideals. However any faith which is based on contact with god, especially where that is verifiable (for instance through some continued cultural history of contact) is probably likely to be genuine and thus pleasing to god. If god judges the hearts of people then it is what is in their hearts, and how they act on that hearts belief which will decide their fate, not precisely how they view a god who is quite difficult to perceive physically with any accuracy.

And certainly, God would see in my heart that I truly saw no evidence for his existence, and could sincerely not believe in his existence. Certainly, he would judge my heart as pure and my fate would be a good one.

That's what I would guess would happen. But I have no damn idea. God may throw me into a burning put in Hell. He may reincarnate me as a worm. He may give me the highest seat in Heaven. I have no idea because I have seen no evidence of anything. I may guess, but I have no reason to believe any of it because I have seen no evidence of any of it.

What I would like to know, is how you know that faith is what matters? If you do not believe that your religion is any more legitimate than any other, then on what basis do you say with such certainty that God decides our fates on faith, if on anything at all?

In my belief system how can you be saved by something you dont have faith, in or believe in. Thats just silly. Believe in, and act on that belief, and you are saved. Dont believe in ,or fail to act on that belief and you may not be saved. Again, it depends how god reads your heart and its intent.

How can god save anyone who even refuses to accept his existence. Yes belief/ faith is the lowest common denominator for salvation (unless you have never heard of, or experienced any form of god, or are incapable of making a choice.) Eg young children are saved by gods grace. Those who never "knew" god may be saved through the nature of their heart and how they live.

To use the cliff example again: Let's say that now you are hanging off a cliff holding onto one person. This person hates you, and has always done bad things to you. Hell, he has even shot you before. Is there any question that you still drag this person up back to safety? Is there any question that you save that person? Of course you drag him up. Any moral person would. Any moral God would.

I cant see why a logical person can be the least bit angry or upset for not being offered salvation by an entity he/she does not believe exists.

Are you sure you've thought that viewpoint through logically?

I'm not angry at God. I am angry at what religion does to the world, and what it does to the minds of people.

[Wootloops]

Most of the stuff I agreed with or couldn't say anything more to.

Im sorry if you got that impression but im not telling you to believe anything. Im saying that i encountered god, and that i chose the bible as an appropriate cultural reference book and contact record for me. What you choose to do with your life is up to you. God has both saved my life physically on numerous occasions and demonstrated the physical ability to ressurect both my body and soul. I owe him for the first and i have good reason to believe his offer on the second.

I know you're not telling me to believe anything. Instead of “tell me” I should have wrote “propose to me” .

lol Thats a complex question. God sometimes sends physical angels.Some times he performs physical miracles, manipulating energy and matter. Sometimes he sends complete and accurate prophetic dreams. Sometimes he sends a quick verbal warning(and some of those warnings are sent internally while others are spoken out loud, and one even came over the radio(which at the time had no power source)

Some of these things are seen and heard by others than myself at the time(one of the factors which leads me to dismiss the possibily of pure delusion or hallucinations to explain my experiences.) Sometimes he works through other humans. Sometimes he provides physical responses to direct questions Other times he provides an unusual response to "prayer"

I dont actually pray for things but god knows what i need and gives me them. He does not always give what you want, but in my experience all my life even before i knew it he has given me what i need.

I have dozens of examples, but one classic is this. My wife is not very social while i am. We were walking along the beach shell collecting one day when i asked god Wy did you make her so much of a hermit ? Caould you not change her/ make her more sociable?

At that moment i saw on the sand a small hermit crab which had come out of its shell and died on the sand just above the low tide zone. Even as i loed down on it, the voice i have come to recognise as gods spoke to me and said. "Yes of course i could change your wife. Then the old self, the hermit would come out of her shell. But at the same time, that self would diejust as the little hermit crab on the sand died without the protection of its shell. You would have an entirely different wife from the one you fell in love with.

Tel you what. How about, instead of changing your wife, why dont i change you. Ill make you more patient, tolerant and understanding of her, so that her sense of social isolation does not worry you so much"

And before i could really answer him he did so. My attiutde reversed completely and instantly. I understood, again, that i loved my wife how she was, rather than how i wanted her to be and that many of her strengths were inversely proportionall or connected to what i saw as her weaknesses. I understood that to change one part would be to change all and to change utterly the person she was. Ii knew i had no right to ask that. But also i was relieved of any anger, worry, or concern for her. I understood that while very different to me, she was perfectly happy as she was, and that was the important thing

If only God would talk out of the sky to everyone. You should ask God to talk into a recorder and tell us the secrets of existence!

No. Its not how my life works at all, and philosophicaly it simply doesnt make sense to me. But thats just me

If you could freeze time, and take a snapshot of the place of every atom in existence in the Universe, then wait 2 years, and travel back in time to the exact moment in you took the snapshot, would the snapshot of the Universe not be exactly identical to the Universe in the time you went back to?

That's determinism. I can't understand what other way there is to look at it.

I think many followers of islam would disagree with your technical and moral interpretation of this concept, but i am not persoanlly familiar with it to argue specifically. The bible has some laws which modern women see as limiting women but which were actually instituted to offer physical protection in the societies of the tiimes. MOst biblical laws served good social purposes. The fact that societies change does not necessarily render them wrong or even obsolete.However i concede that where breaking those laws no longer physically endangers the life of indiiduals, or of the society, then the death penalty is no longer an appropriate punishment.

Thus it is still wrong, foolish and dangerous for a young person to disrespect/ignore the wisdom of their elders. IN biblical days, to refuse to be an active part of a family unit could condem that unit to death or economic slavery. Thus death was an appropriate punishment to protect families and society from disobedient youths. This is no longer the case. But a society allows its youth to run unchecked at its peril even today.

Unfortunately for Islam, the Qu'ran is supposed to be timeless. They can't use the societal change argument.

Edited November 7, 2008 by Wootloops

[Karlis]

~~~ ... (snip) ...

... If God told me to be against abortion because it's wrong, I would ask why? ... Him proclaiming that it is wrong does not make it wrong. That's God's opinion on it. Even if he is God, I am not going to accept what he says without question, and without the same skepticism that I would treat anyone else with.

Just looking at this point only, I think you face a problem, imo.

If we accept that God exists, we must also accept that God is the ultimate law-giver; and we must accept that if we break God’s laws, then there are penalties.

Consider the Laws of the Land, as a rough comparison:

Break those Laws of the Land and you incur a penalty Wootloops, whether you accept those laws or disagree with those laws.

You may question the Laws of the Land as much as you like, but if you “break” those laws, you are a law-breaker. A due penalty will be imposed on you, whether you agree with those laws or disagree with those laws.

The same principle applies to God’s Laws.

You can can question and argue against those laws as much as you like, and tell the Judge that you personally do not accept some specific Laws, but if you break any of these laws, you commit sin against God, and incur the due penalty which God imposes.

You see Wootloops, God is the ultimate Law-giver, and Judge. Question God's Laws as much as you like, but those Laws will still remain Laws.

That said, this is only a rough comparison, but I would be interested in your comments.

Kind regards,

Karlis

[3rd rock resident alien]

That makes all atheist criminals. Those Gods laws apply only to its brainwash believers. Land of the Land must protect its people from God and Godless mob from taking advantage of any situation that deals with all living beings from getting harm or forced against its will.

[Karlis]

That makes all atheist criminals. Those Gods laws apply only to its brainwash believers. Land of the Land must protect its people from God and Godless mob from taking advantage of any situation that deals with all living beings from getting harm or forced against its will.

Well, you are partly correct, according to Bible Scriptures.

According to "the Good Book", all humans have sinned (iow; commited crimes against the Laws of God)

Those laws apply to all humans, not only believers -- according to Scriptures.

God's "Law of the Land" demands punishment, which is our "physical" death; the Christ paid that penalty on our behalf.

Your thoughts on this?

Kind regards,

Karlis

[3rd rock resident alien]

Law of the Land depends on the level of reasoning of its people. Under-developed people, less educated are suppressed, have limited, or no access to information, or human development. Instead they are given a simple task and commands by a wiser group of People of what is wrong and right and they must pay them. The Sun God makes no such laws. God that commands is an invention of a Man. Man invented Books. Death is part of Life. Without death, there is no life.

Sun invented all including humans.

[Bez]

Well, you are partly correct, according to Bible Scriptures.

According to "the Good Book", all humans have sinned (iow; commited crimes against the Laws of God)

Those laws apply to all humans, not only believers -- according to Scriptures.

God's "Law of the Land" demands punishment, which is our "physical" death; the Christ paid that penalty on our behalf.

Your thoughts on this?

Kind regards,

Karlis

Aren't we supposedly born into sin. so even a newborn is a sinner? that's pretty one-sided.

and as for the demanding punishment. i thought hell was the punishment? but then i thought God loved us. I must have him confused with someone else.

[Karlis]

Aren't we supposedly born into sin. so even a newborn is a sinner? that's pretty one-sided.

Hi Bezzie -- As I see it, the above teachings are a misunderstanding of Scriptures – not correct Bible teachings.

Nobody is born a sinner.

… i thought hell was the punishment? …

Not so.

Simply put, “hell” is a grave where a dead person is buried. The grave is not punishment.

Kind regards,

Karlis

[Omnaka]

Hi Bezzie -- As I see it, the above teachings are a misunderstanding of Scriptures – not correct Bible teachings.

Nobody is born a sinner.

Not so.

Simply put, “hell” is a grave where a dead person is buried. The grave is not punishment.

Kind regards,

Karlis

I prefer born sponges, Gaining The enlightened Experience It takes to Create as Our Father and Mother do.

Takes one to Know one and Make one.

Love Omnaka

[Wootloops]

Just looking at this point only, I think you face a problem, imo.

If we accept that God exists, we must also accept that God is the ultimate law-giver; and we must accept that if we break God’s laws, then there are penalties.

Consider the Laws of the Land, as a rough comparison:

Break those Laws of the Land and you incur a penalty Wootloops, whether you accept those laws or disagree with those laws.

You may question the Laws of the Land as much as you like, but if you “break” those laws, you are a law-breaker. A due penalty will be imposed on you, whether you agree with those laws or disagree with those laws.

The same principle applies to God’s Laws.

You can can question and argue against those laws as much as you like, and tell the Judge that you personally do not accept some specific Laws, but if you break any of these laws, you commit sin against God, and incur the due penalty which God imposes.

You see Wootloops, God is the ultimate Law-giver, and Judge. Question God's Laws as much as you like, but those Laws will still remain Laws.

That said, this is only a rough comparison, but I would be interested in your comments.

Kind regards,

Karlis

Indeed, if it were the case that a god existed, and that this god punished, then if he told me that to be pro-choice would keep me out of the afterlife, I should probably be scared. However, even with this looming punishment, I should still be pro-choice (If I'm not a coward), because the way I look at it, any God who would threaten me with punishment for disagreeing with him cannot be a benevolent god.

We, as a society, only have laws so that we can survive and prosper. They are necessary. We would all like to live in a society where there were no laws, and no laws were needed, but we cannot. We need these laws in order to be efficient, productive, cooperative, to live without fear, etc. With God it should be another story. God is God. He could have created us any way, but he created us this way, and he put us on this little rock to live this mortal life. If this God were a benevolent God, everyone, no matter what they have ever done or not done, will live on afterward forever, or at least, receive equal treatment.

God can't fear us, we can only fear him. God doesn't need laws, only we do. He should let us govern our little rock, and if he wants to bud in, he should offer valid argument, and not be a dictator about it. What happens here shouldn't matter to God because all the little souls that die here, in whichever way or form, should all be up in Heaven drinking really good cool-aid.

In this way, a god's entire existence is irrelevant to me. If this god is benevolent, then I should have nothing to fear in not following him. If this god is malicious, and threatens me with punishment for not following him, then I should still not follow him, and live with (Or not live with) the unjust punishment thereof.

[Omnaka]

Indeed, if it were the case that a god existed, and that this god punished, then if he told me that to be pro-choice would keep me out of the afterlife, I should probably be scared. However, even with this looming punishment, I should still be pro-choice (If I'm not a coward), because the way I look at it, any God who would threaten me with punishment for disagreeing with him cannot be a benevolent god.

We, as a society, only have laws so that we can survive and prosper. They are necessary. We would all like to live in a society where there were no laws, and no laws were needed, but we cannot. We need these laws in order to be efficient, productive, cooperative, to live without fear, etc. With God it should be another story. God is God. He could have created us any way, but he created us this way, and he put us on this little rock to live this mortal life. If this God were a benevolent God, everyone, no matter what they have ever done or not done, will live on afterward forever, or at least, receive equal treatment.

God can't fear us, we can only fear him. God doesn't need laws, only we do. He should let us govern our little rock, and if he wants to bud in, he should offer valid argument, and not be a dictator about it. What happens here shouldn't matter to God because all the little souls that die here, in whichever way or form, should all be up in Heaven drinking really good cool-aid.

In this way, a god's entire existence is irrelevant to me. If this god is benevolent, then I should have nothing to fear in not following him. If this god is malicious, and threatens me with punishment for not following him, then I should still not follow him, and live with (Or not live with) the unjust punishment thereof.

Good Post bro.

God has nothing to Fear as we have nothing to Fear from God (Father and Mother).

Unconditional love is exactly How God love's us.

You gave a Good decscription Of This, even though it was In the negative, same point Made.

Unconditional love leaves no room For predgidous.

Love Omnaka