prop 8

[KyrusRose]

Now that I'm done with that, out of my system and am now IGNORING the rantings of a religious fanatic who will not be named.. Does anyone know of any way a homosexual relationship can harm a person? I'll be more exactly.. Answer the following.

If you have a gay couple living next door and they get married, how will it effect you negatively.

Class?

[SilverCougar]

OK folks...everybody step away from the keyboard...and nobody gets hurt...

Good.

For folks in the UK'ish part of the world...have a little tea...a smoke...deep breath...c...go to your happy place...ok...

For the folks here in the US...have a little coffee...a smoke...deep breath...a few happy thoughts...go to your happy place...ok...

Everything is going to be ok...

Remember...deep breath...happy place...

I'm trying very.. very.. hard not to go off. It's taken alot of cookies and rum.. *twitches*

[BlindMessiah]

These sorts of beliefs are on par with Islamic terrorists. When you have normal US citizens, some northern lawyers, saying that gays should be stoned or at least evicted from the country, we have a serious problem. This isn't some fringe West Boro Baptist phenomenon. We have people like this running our country. In addition, you'll notice that while the source of this thread, is almost strictly republican, democratic leaders stand silent in opposition. You may have noticed the stances of the candidates on gay marriage and freedom.

McCain: Against

Palin: Against

Obama: Against

Biden Against

What kind of country are we turning into and when will we be given real change we can actually believe in?

Edited November 3, 2008 by BlindMessiah

[Splodgenessabounds]

[The Silver Thong]

... You know I don't WANT to touch it.. the whole thing is so.. wrong it makes me sick. But.. I can't help it. I'm going to run to the store, pick up a stack of porno mags, a 24 pack of bud light (and I don't even drink) find me a male prostitute and when i get back, I'm ripping you a new one, and you can take your religious rant to the religion section of the forums, kay?

I'll be your male prostitute and I'll even give ya the preffered customer rate LOL free

Wow did this thread ever take a turn. I can't be bothered to go back and look up "it's" name. Some of the comments made by whats his pickle are just wow, I can't even imagine what it must be like to live with those kinds of views. Sheesh.

[Guardsman Bass]

These sorts of beliefs are on par with Islamic terrorists. When you have normal US citizens, some northern lawyers, saying that gays should be stoned or at least evicted from the country, we have a serious problem. This isn't some fringe West Boro Baptist phenomenon. We have people like this running our country. In addition, you'll notice that while the source of this thread, is almost strictly republican, democratic leaders stand silent in opposition. You may have noticed the stances of the candidates on gay marriage and freedom.

McCain: Against

Palin: Against

Obama: Against

Biden Against

What kind of country are we turning into and when will we be given real change we can actually believe in?

There's an eerie familiarity to all of the anti-gay rhetoric, and that's when you realize that much of it is almost exactly the same as arguments against racial equality and interracial marriage. Like the Christian fanatics who argue that this will lead to pedophilia and the like, their predecessors argued that doing anything but keeping blacks subjugated would "up-end the natural order" (and lead to rapacious assaults on White Womanhood by black men - an interesting bit of projection there).

The only problem with the anti-gay marriage arguments is that we have real, existing examples of states and societies with gay marriage (Canada, Massachusetts, the Netherlands), and all of that bad **** they claim will result from it hasn't. Churches haven't been forced into performing gay marriages (I figure it is safe to assume that gay couples don't want to get married in a church that loathes them), heterosexual marriage hasn't collapsed, the societies haven't degenerated into a morass of pedophilia and rape, and so on and so forth.

[KyrusRose]

I'll be your male prostitute and I'll even give ya the preffered customer rate LOL free

Wow did this thread ever take a turn. I can't be bothered to go back and look up "it's" name. Some of the comments made by whats his pickle are just wow, I can't even imagine what it must be like to live with those kinds of views. Sheesh.

I'm in east TN in a retirement community with 2.. yes 2 churches on every corner.. we have the locals who preach at Walmart and in the park and this guy that will stand just outside the (Elementary, grades K-5) school grounds, in the parking lot of a gas station, telling everyone who drives by to pick up or drop off their kids that they are all going to hell for allowing their children to learn evolution. Whenever I see people like this.. I can't help but feel sorry for them. They must be so sad.. live such depressing lives. I would put the religious fanatic in this thread in that group.. I guess its a Myth that God and Jesus preached love. All I see these days is hate.

[+Sherapy]

All I'm saying is.... Just read ur history.

Greek and Roman Times.

Simple.

We might as well have Marshall Law in Full Effect here in the US if were going to have Gay Marriages accepted.

See this great country go down in shambles.

The Negatives keep accumulating about the US.

Economic Collapse is inevitable.

The Poor are getting Poorer.

Homosexuality

Gay Marriages

Divorce Rates are High.

Clean Water Shortages.

Adultery.

Prostitution

Pornography.

Lust

Greed

Need I say more?

Soul matrix as a fellow california who will be voting no along with many others I concur with silver that perhaps you have given in to hate mongering.....Now where i am we are taking a strong stance at defeating prop 8 very few want to see this go thru.....

http://www.calcatholic.com/news/newsArticl...1d-258ab7e0a84a

The catholic priest are little by little stepping up also.....

voting no on this is voting no to hate mongering and discrimination ..this is a chance to speak on the behalf of of ending division and to stop allowing religion to continue dividing us and spreading hate...... this a chance to be a 'free thinker' hon its as simple as that....

there is no justification for this prop none...

what will set us back is if this gets though... SM you are protected by the first amendment to hold what ever religious beleifs you choose and if its part of your tradition to not marry gays then no one would expect you too..but beyond that if you are squeamsih about gay love that is on you and for you to deal with.without imposing your disdain on others,perhaps pray for the strength to let others be who they are...........perhaps .expand your awareness of toleration..

its is a blatant lie the commercials that are urging yes on this it is designed o polarize people with hatred using fear..and exploitation of the flock.....

the mormons have gone as far as to tell their flock they are bad people if they don't vote yes on this.......i know mormons who will be voting no by the way..

the issue is that religion will lose a great stranglehold it has on peoples ability to think critically because this is supposed to be one of the "unquestioned truths" and the concerns are that when masses start questioning the myths they no longer can control and take thier place on the shelf gathering dust................

Edited November 3, 2008 by Tangerine Sheri

[supernatural_extortionist]

This was good at the start but now, it's getting heated. Ok, here goes the whole deal of GOD saying this and that and yadayada; well, not all of us believe in God like myself. I believe there is a GOD so I can consider myself an agnostic but, I don't let HIM interfere with my life. And guess what? I myself am a Lesbian. I plan to get married with a wife by the LAW, not the CHURCH.

What people like you should be worrying about is the Economy, poverty, famine and war. Gay marriage does nothing to help those causes so why bother with it? You should worry more about where the economy is heading and not where WE are going. It's not OUR fault the economy is going down. What I had researched in U.S History some few weeks back, there's an economical crisis that goes on every 70-80 years but that's my observation. Remember the Panic of 1857, and then the Great Depression. That's what...72 years in between? Now from the Great Depression to now? That's 79 years I believe?

So my point is, Religious people will of course say Yes on Prop 8 but I know for sure I don't care what their God has to say. I don't let some GOD control my life. I make my own decisions on what I find about myself and being Lesbian is not one of my decisions but it is in fact who I am. GOD cannot change that and I really don't care. All I simply want is to live like everyone else such as getting married and having children with my future wife whether God likes it or Not. Love is Love and no GOD can change that from me or anyone else.

[BlindMessiah]

There's an eerie familiarity to all of the anti-gay rhetoric, and that's when you realize that much of it is almost exactly the same as arguments against racial equality and interracial marriage. Like the Christian fanatics who argue that this will lead to pedophilia and the like, their predecessors argued that doing anything but keeping blacks subjugated would "up-end the natural order" (and lead to rapacious assaults on White Womanhood by black men - an interesting bit of projection there).

The only problem with the anti-gay marriage arguments is that we have real, existing examples of states and societies with gay marriage (Canada, Massachusetts, the Netherlands), and all of that bad **** they claim will result from it hasn't. Churches haven't been forced into performing gay marriages (I figure it is safe to assume that gay couples don't want to get married in a church that loathes them), heterosexual marriage hasn't collapsed, the societies haven't degenerated into a morass of pedophilia and rape, and so on and so forth.

I thoroughly agree in the similarities. I was discussing this with someone the other day and I used the analogy. Civil unions reminds me of segregation. Sure blacks can go to schools and ride the bus, but they have to get their own thing. We don't want blacks using our white things. It's just so similar to the hateful rhetoric you hear today. Well give them civil unions, but not marriages, that's our thing. And that's the position of both McCain and Obama. I mean what the hell is happening here?

[BlindMessiah]

I'm trying very.. very.. hard not to go off. It's taken alot of cookies and rum.. *twitches*

Meh, I'm used to this. Here it ten times a day. *sigh*

[KyrusRose]

I thoroughly agree in the similarities. I was discussing this with someone the other day and I used the analogy. Civil unions reminds me of segregation. Sure blacks can go to schools and ride the bus, but they have to get their own thing. We don't want blacks using our white things. It's just so similar to the hateful rhetoric you hear today. Well give them civil unions, but not marriages, that's our thing. And that's the position of both McCain and Obama. I mean what the hell is happening here?

Exactly! Yes you can ride the bus, but you have to stay at the back of the bus! Yes you can drink public water, but not from our fountains, you have to have your own! Yes you can go to school but only be in black classes with black teachers.

The same thing happened with women! Yeah you can go to school but only to all female schools.. we have to make sure you still know how to cook and keep you under out learning curve so there's no way you can get a mans job.

Yeah you can get married but not the same married cause we don't want you tainting the good name of all the straight folks.

-.-

[mklsgl]

These sorts of beliefs are on par with Islamic terrorists. When you have normal US citizens, some northern lawyers, saying that gays should be stoned or at least evicted from the country, we have a serious problem. This isn't some fringe West Boro Baptist phenomenon. We have people like this running our country. In addition, you'll notice that while the source of this thread, is almost strictly republican, democratic leaders stand silent in opposition. You may have noticed the stances of the candidates on gay marriage and freedom.

McCain: Against

Palin: Against

Obama: Against

Biden Against

What kind of country are we turning into and when will we be given real change we can actually believe in?

It's (political stances on Gay Marriage) not as black and white as you put it, Blind Messiah. McCain, Obama, and Biden have clearly made the distinction that it is a State issue, not a Federal issue--which is the context for their "Against" position. Palin has made her opinion well-known and her opinion includes any context. Being Senators (McCain, Biden, Obama), they are servants of their constituency and the majority of their constituents are Against so their public, political position must reflect the sentiments of those who elected them. I would argue with my last breath that all 3 share the same personal opinion--which is For.

The "problem" is the people, the constituency, because if We The People (a decided majority) want to legalize Gay Marriage, then We the People will elect representatives to voice our majority opinion.

We The People need to start thinking about "the better good" for all, and not just for "the better good" for themselves. Americans suffer social myopia. "Real Change" will start when the majority is cured of their myopic affliction.

[BlindMessiah]

I don't give a damn about their own personal opinion. There political actions oppose freedom and the constitution. I can't support someone in good conscious unless they are actively trying to legalize gay marriage. As I said earlier, their constituency is irrelevant here. We aren't a democracy. We don't remove rights in the name of mob rule. In addition, if those three are so concerned with the personal opinion of their constituents, why did they vote for the bail out when the US population opposed it 100-1.

[KyrusRose]

"I don't condone what Dr. Zoidberg did but I'll fight tooth and nail for his freedom to do it." - Old Man Waterfall, Futurama

Can I point out, while Obama himself may be against gay marriage, hes also stated that it should be decided by each state and not him.

But I wonder about this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWAWSoQeBbQ...feature=related

[KyrusRose]

I just found this, might want to take a look.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...1.DTL&tsp=1

(07-01) 12:47 PDT SAN FRANCISCO -- Democratic Sen. Barack Obama has announced his opposition to a November ballot measure that would ban same-sex marriage in California, a move that puts gay rights front and center in the 2008 presidential campaign.

In a letter to San Francisco's Alice B. Toklas Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Democratic Club Sunday, the presumptive presidential nominee said he opposed "the divisive and discriminatory efforts to amend the California Constitution" and similar efforts in other states.

Earlier last week, Arizona Republican Sen. John McCain, the GOP standard-bearer in November, took the other side. He told officials of Protect Marriage, a coalition that gathered 1.1 million signatures for the California measure, that he backed their efforts "to recognize marriage as a unique institution between a man and a woman."

Obama is skating gingerly past his previous position on the issue. The Illinois senator has said repeatedly that he believes marriage should only be between man and a woman. When the California Supreme Court overturned the state's ban on same-sex marriage in May, Obama released a carefully nuanced statement saying he respected the court's decision, believed states should make their own decisions on marriage and "will continue to fight for civil unions as President."

But civil unions, gay activists have often argued, aren't the same as marriage, which would put Obama on the wrong side of what's increasingly seen as a civil rights issue.

Obama's opposition to the same-sex marriage ban, however, brought immediate praise from groups trying to defeat Prop. 8 in California, which would amend the state constitution to say that "only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California."

"It's great to see Senator Obama's statement, which is consistent with what he has said in the past about allowing each state to make its own decision," said Geoff Kors, executive director of Equality for All, which is heading the Prop. 8 opposition. "Is it ideal that he doesn't support same-sex marriage? No. But it's important when political leaders say gay and lesbian couples should be treated equally."

It's no surprise to see McCain on the side of the same-sex marriage ban. While he opposed a GOP-backed 2004 federal constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage, he supported a failed 2006 Arizona initiative that would have blocked not only same-sex marriages, but also domestic partnerships.

For both campaigns, the decision to get involved in the same-sex marriage debate carries plenty of political risks. California is one of three states with same-sex marriage bans on the November ballot. While California is seen as Obama country and Arizona is McCain's home state, Florida, the third state seeking to limit marriage to a man and a woman, is a tossup state that will be a major prize in the November election.

Edited November 4, 2008 by KyrusRose

[BlindMessiah]

"I don't condone what Dr. Zoidberg did but I'll fight tooth and nail for his freedom to do it." - Old Man Waterfall, Futurama

That's my motto. I'm such a big free speech advocate it gets in the way when I run into someone like soulmatrix.

Can I point out, while Obama himself may be against gay marriage, hes also stated that it should be decided by each state and not him.

That's not good enough. We need to enforce our constitution and protect civil liberties.

[Guardsman Bass]

Exactly! Yes you can ride the bus, but you have to stay at the back of the bus! Yes you can drink public water, but not from our fountains, you have to have your own! Yes you can go to school but only be in black classes with black teachers.

The same thing happened with women! Yeah you can go to school but only to all female schools.. we have to make sure you still know how to cook and keep you under out learning curve so there's no way you can get a mans job.

Yeah you can get married but not the same married cause we don't want you tainting the good name of all the straight folks.

-.-

It's like how segregation helped create a caste system back in the heyday of bad racial relations. "Unclean" was the message of every segregated water fountain, or school, or restaurant for blacks and other races - and both knew it.

[KyrusRose]

That's my motto. I'm such a big free speech advocate it gets in the way when I run into someone like soulmatrix.

That's not good enough. We need to enforce our constitution and protect civil liberties.

Yes, in a perfect world this wouldn't be an issue, but I have a feeling its going to be years before any of us see the Constitution amended on a nation wide level. For now.. yes, he has his right to say he doesn't like it, as any of us do. If he wants to vote like a normal person, then he can vote against gay marriage, but I look at this as a sign that if Gay Marriage where to come up in the white house, he wouldn't use his powers to veto a bill for it. McCain.. I can't be so sure about.

[BlindMessiah]

Yes, in a perfect world this wouldn't be an issue, but I have a feeling its going to be years before any of us see the Constitution amended on a nation wide level.

I'm not looking to have the constitution amended. In its current form gay marriage should be legal. We simply have laws defying the constitution. The laws need to be changed, not the constitution.

For now.. yes, he has his right to say he doesn't like it, as any of us do.

And he'll have that right as long as I have any fight left in me. I'd fight just as vehemently for his right to be a backwards hater as I do for gay to marry. This isn't about the position, it's about freedom for all.

If he wants to vote like a normal person, then he can vote against gay marriage, but I look at this as a sign that if Gay Marriage where to come up in the white house, he wouldn't use his powers to veto a bill for it. McCain.. I can't be so sure about.

Obama and McCain believe marriage is between a man and a woman. Obama and McCain both opposed amending the constitution on a national level to define it. Obama and McCain both believe states should decide. Obama and McCain both support civil unions. The fact that these two men, are our choices for president, says a lot about how Americans feel about freedom. It's a shame what our country has become.

[KyrusRose]

Obama and McCain believe marriage is between a man and a woman. Obama and McCain both opposed amending the constitution on a national level to define it. Obama and McCain both believe states should decide. Obama and McCain both support civil unions. The fact that these two men, are our choices for president, says a lot about how Americans feel about freedom. It's a shame what our country has become.

And still McCain was willing to go so far as to deny even civil unions, where as Obama is behind allowing them in Cali. Apples and Oranges.

[BlindMessiah]

And still McCain was willing to go so far as to deny even civil unions, where as Obama is behind allowing them in Cali. Apples and Oranges.

I disagree, but even so, even if they are apples and oranges, what we need is a pear.

[SilverCougar]

How about passion fruit?

[Sho_Sho]

I want to know when gay and straight people alike are going to put a stop to those Skanky Girls at clubs making out with each other just because they think it turns on the douch bag guys they are hanging out with?

I never hear anyone complaining about that! Its sooo annoying.

I don’t care if gay people marry. It’s not my job to judge anyone. I think if they want to get married and be miserable along with us strait people go for it.

What I have a problem with is when something is put to the people and a vote is made on it, and then a judge comes along and decides that those votes do not matter. And then the people are asked to vote again on it...why bother? People spending millions of dollars just to have it over ruled by another judge?

I am a Christian, and I believe that most men and women are born gay, or they are sexually abused as a child and end up turning gay due to those circumstances. It’s not a choice they make. I’m sure if it was, it would be a hellava lot easier to just be strait, and avoid all this mess.

I don’t think God makes people just to turn around and throw them into hell for being the way he made them. I have a good friend named Billy Butts and we knew from 3 years old on that he was really meant to be a girl. He acted like a girl looked like a girl but born with boy parts. God made him that way, he didn’t choose at 3 years old to act like a girl. TRUST ME. If he had a choice he wouldn’t be a gay man with the last name BUTTS.

[BlindMessiah]

What I have a problem with is when something is put to the people and a vote is made on it, and then a judge comes along and decides that those votes do not matter. And then the people are asked to vote again on it...why bother? People spending millions of dollars just to have it over ruled by another judge?

I already addressed this point about why I believe judges had the right to overturn the decision. Here is my post.

This nation is about liberty. Drinking, smoking, drugs, sexuality and the like, are all personal choices for the individual. You, me, Bush and Pelosi, have no right, to tell anyone else what their personal choices can be. Unless gay marriage is legalized in every city in this great nation, we will be a living paradox, violating the very laws that govern us. Until people begin to honor our constitution, and actually follow it, we're headed toward a dark and depraved society where no man can speak their mind, no one's rights are safe, and pointless laws abound for the sake of pleasing the majority, knowing that they infringed on the liberties of the minority.

---

For those out there, who would rather live in a democracy, than follow the law of the land, vote yes, but for those who support freedom and our constitution, vote no. We are not a democracy, we are a land that holds law and liberty as the highest standard, not the whims of man.

"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine." Thomas Jefferson