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Bogeyman

Congratulations America

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jaylemurph
Are you done lying and making up stories about people dying in the streets BECAUSE they have no insurance?

It's NOT true, and NO ONE, despite me asking again and again, have shown it to be true. Yet, I am called a liar? WTF? Just because I call out a LIAR, that means you don't have to believe me? You're kidding, right?

There is NO REASON that these things should happen, and it is exceedingly rare that a SANE, UN-ADDICTED, SOBER person has health care and health insurance issues like you people are describing.

So, i will yell it ONE MORE TIME:

PEOPLE ARE NOT DYING IN THE STREETS IN THE US BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE. THE INSURED DO NOT STEP OVER THEIR DYING FELLOW CITIZENS TO GET INTO A HOSPITAL. THE MAJORITY OF THE HOMELESS AND UNINSURED ARE SO BECAUSE OF MENTAL ISSUES OR ADDICTION, AND CANNOT BE FORCED INTO SHELTERS OR FORCED INTO HOSPITALS. HEALTH INSURANCE IS A SCAM AND SHOULD BE REGULATED, OR AT THE VERY LEAST THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD PICK UP THE TAB FOR PEOPLE THAT MAKE UNDER A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF MONEY. DON'T TAKE AWAY MY HEALTH-CARE BECAUSE A DRUG ADDICT WANTS ME TO HAVE THE SAME HEALTH CARE AS HIM. I HAVE EARNED MY HEALTH-CARE

Ugh. This strikes me as the most distasteful bourgeois attitude: rather than deal with/admit the underlying problems of poverty (and maybe admit it could happen to him, too), he just turns all the poor and homeless into junkies, mentals and layabouts. It's /their/ fault for choosing to be poor.

Looks like you'd make one hell of a Victorian, egg.

--Jaylemurph

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Ufo Believer

Well, Jaylemurph, looks like we can agree on something.

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eqgumby
QUOTE (eqgumby @ Nov 8 2008, 08:49 PM)

This is NOT about homeless addicts and alcoholics. The perception is that normal working class people or the working poor don't have insurance, and that they die in the streets, and that is NOT TRUE!.

These homeless only go when they HAVE to, and they NEVER GO BACK FOR FOLLOW-UP. You can't treat a person that REFUSES TO BE ADMITTED.

That's a /huge/ generalisation. And like all generalisations, it's truth is inversely proportionate to its generality.

What? Which part? Disagree with something here, please. Pick one, not your own sweeping general statement. How is my statement(s) general? Are they untrue? Do you disagree? Are normal working class people dying in the streets? Do homeless people go to follow-up appointments normally? How many homeless people (the large majority of which are mentally ill or addicted) accept being admitted to a hospital?

Anecdotal. If you're not even aware there are homeless freezing to death in urban areas (and you seem to be the *only* one not aware of this) I'm not sure how reliable your anecdotal observations are.

I have NEVER said homeless don't freeze to death! NEVER! When the hell did I say that!! Twisting and lying! Show me where I said the homeless don't die from exposure?

And how the hell are my first-hand observations less valid than your second hand agenda driven statistics from such beacons of truth as "truthout.org"? Sure, no bias there! :wacko:

The fact is we do have people dying like that. If you don't want to acknowledge that, that's fine, but it seems absurd to me that you feel this need to contradict people's first-hand observation. Clearly, you're lucky enough to live in some wealthy area without a serious homeless problem. I guess that's a reason to live in the suburbs: you can convince yourself the poor and the needy live like that by choice since you don't actually interact with them.

WTF again? Whose first hand observations? And again, how are THERES more real than MINE! Just above here, you question my observations, yet have the gall here to bash me for questioning what YOU call others first hand observations...what observations? NO ONE has claimed to see people dying in the streets due to a lack of insurance, and seen insured people step over them, or people kicked out of a hospital and put on the street.

Just out of curiosity, do you think racism is a made-up problem, too?

:o

That is the rudest, most stupid thing ever. You are purely baiting. Plain and simple.

I can deal with a difference of opinion.

But I am called a liar by you, and held to some different standard than the rest of the world because I have a different opinion.

Let me take off the gloves:

People like you want social health-care either because you fall for the liberal medias lies, or, because you are too lazy to work for a living. You want it all for free, because you are jealous and petty and hate to see others doing "better" than you, so you grasp on to something like health insurance, and cry that it's not fair that the rich guy has better health care than you, even though you refuse to pay a dime for it because that would mean you would have to WORK, and your health is bad anyway, because you likely grew up in poverty, and you likely are fat, lazy, do drugs, drink, smoke, or have a chronic ailment to begin with. That's the general consensus among people who work 40 or 50 hours a week, and pay for their own health insurance.

I agree the system needs improvement.

But you people and your lies are too much.

No one is allowed to die in the streets because they don't have insurance.

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eqgumby
Ugh. This strikes me as the most distasteful bourgeois attitude: rather than deal with/admit the underlying problems of poverty (and maybe admit it could happen to him, too), he just turns all the poor and homeless into junkies, mentals and layabouts. It's /their/ fault for choosing to be poor.

Looks like you'd make one hell of a Victorian, egg.

--Jaylemurph

Nice, don't answer the question. Just keep baiting. That's all you have. That and lies.

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jaylemurph
What? Which part? Disagree with something here, please. Pick one, not your own sweeping general statement. How is my statement(s) general? Are they untrue? Do you disagree? Are normal working class people dying in the streets? Do homeless people go to follow-up appointments normally? How many homeless people (the large majority of which are mentally ill or addicted) accept being admitted to a hospital?

This part: These homeless only go when they HAVE to, and they NEVER GO BACK FOR FOLLOW-UP. You can't treat a person that REFUSES TO BE ADMITTED.

As I pointed out, you're not aware of the problem of the homeless freezing, yet somehow you're cognizant of their healthcare practices? Unless you know this from direct knowledge, it seems to me you're the one making a huge generalisation about the homeless and healthcare.

I have NEVER said homeless don't freeze to death! NEVER! When the hell did I say that!! Twisting and lying! Show me where I said the homeless don't die from exposure?

And how the hell are my first-hand observations less valid than your second hand agenda driven statistics from such beacons of truth as "truthout.org"? Sure, no bias there! :wacko:

No, you said it was only lazy drug addicts who do so. For which you have no proof, just sanctimony. I live in an urban area with a homeless problem. I see homeless people every day. I know the ones who live in my neoghbourhood, and where I work. And I know one of them -- who was neither crazy nor a junkie -- died last winter from freezing to death. No internet needed for that.

WTF again? Whose first hand observations? And again, how are THERES more real than MINE! Just above here, you question my observations, yet have the gall here to bash me for questioning what YOU call others first hand observations...what observations? NO ONE has claimed to see people dying in the streets due to a lack of insurance, and seen insured people step over them, or people kicked out of a hospital and put on the street.

For the record, I *have* seen the homeless turned out the ER for lack of insurance, last time I was in one. I only question your observations -- again, you claim to be stating for a fact what happens in /every/ American hospital /all/ of the time, which strikes me as being a wee bit over-stated -- when they are in direct opposition to what I know is true.

That is the rudest, most stupid thing ever. You are purely baiting. Plain and simple.

As I said, you seem to be turning real problems into imaginary issues. It's not fair to ask if you do that to other issues? Or do you just not like the implication?

I can deal with a difference of opinion.

But I am called a liar by you, and held to some different standard than the rest of the world because I have a different opinion.

Well, I say what I know. You make vast statements you can't prove about entire national institutions and classes of people. I don't. You just act like you're entitled to say whatever you like and not be questioned about it or held accountable for it. I don't.

Let me take off the gloves:

People like you want social health-care either because you fall for the liberal medias lies, or, because you are too lazy to work for a living.

I work for a living. I have done since I was 18. Again, you're saying far more than you actually know.

You want it all for free, because you are jealous and petty and hate to see others doing "better" than you, so you grasp on to something like health insurance, and cry that it's not fair that the rich guy has better health care than you, even though you refuse to pay a dime for it because that would mean you would have to WORK, and your health is bad anyway, because you likely grew up in poverty, and you likely are fat, lazy, do drugs, drink, smoke, or have a chronic ailment to begin with. That's the general consensus among people who work 40 or 50 hours a week, and pay for their own health insurance.

It's tempting to react to this load of... well, refuse. I think it rather elegantly proves you don't need a little thing like facts to underwrite your opinions and grossly extend them ad litem to whomever you want to have them, and they keeping verging on the out and out bigoted. Needless to say, I don't smoke or do drugs (although I am partial to a glass of wine with dinner and the odd branch and bourbon), I'm neither fat nor lazy, suffer from no chronic ailments -- except possibly a wonky ankle from a college sporting injury -- and I didn't grow up in poverty.

Now, I have admit I think you're misinformed on a number of things and inclined to an out-of-date viewpoint, but I certainly would never heave the above list of vituperation on anyone. Especially if I didn't know them to be true. But that just proves my point.

--Jaylemurph

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jaylemurph
Well, Jaylemurph, looks like we can agree on something.

Ha!

See, we can all do something positive in this thread. We can build consensus. And thank gumby for being the catalyst for it.

--Jaylemurph

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momentarylapseofreason

I find some comments on here paranoid, disgusting,hateful and selfish. There is no empathy.

We are a higher income family and WE WOULD NOT MIND paying more taxes to help those less fortunate-and we know others that think the same way.

I just don't like spending my tax dollars on an unjust war-I would rather help my fellow citizens here in the U.S.

But all I ask is that governments implement programs that work & spend our money intelligently and be more transparent.

We really need programs to get people on their feet, free education, health care (& mental).But for a limited amount of time of course-some people simply can't be helped-they are damaged goods-but they are not trash to be thrown unto the streets !! :angry: And yes, some are just lazy, they can be sorted out-tough luck for them-we shouldn't cater to them.

I hate this survival of the fittest mentality-we all have a weak member in our blood-lines/family.

Edited by momentarylapseofreason

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The Silver Thong
Ha!

See, we can all do something positive in this thread. We can build consensus. And thank gumby for being the catalyst for it.

--Jaylemurph

I rarley post whole posts oh wait I won't do it but I think Eggy just got owned.

Ring a bell Eggy.

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momentarylapseofreason

Another thing -for all the whining going on about helping the "poor loser lazy SOB's"

The more poverty a country has & stupid drug policies that don't work-the more tax money us "financially comfortable" folks have to pay on police, jails,prisons etc.

The less available education (for career skills) the mo po folks you'll have that can't survive flippin burgers. I guess some don't want educated people cause they are the modern day slaves that you don't have to pay ****. Flippin burgers is ok for teens or retired folks to make some play money -but that's it. I don't feel it's right when fathers & mothers have to work 2-3 jobs to survive. Life is too short & kids grow up too fast.

The more losses over all.

And not just that- the more chances for you greedy folks to be robbed, murdered, theft etc.

Also less rehabilitated drug addicts. It's either rehab or jail-if I had my way. It depends on the person. Drug convicted Felons can't get a real job or one at all -and then the whole cycle starts all over again.

It'll be just like South Africa-no safety for your kids.

Edited by momentarylapseofreason

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Ufo Believer

Wow, that was a hateful opinion. So what's next, going to bash President-Elect Obama???

Edited by Ufo Believer

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SilverCougar
Let me take off the gloves:

People like you want social health-care either because you fall for the liberal medias lies, or, because you are too lazy to work for a living.

BS. I've worked since I was 16. Not *once* was I able to afford healthcare.. even when I worked two - three jobs. This is the first time I actually have been covered, and all because my partner's (who I live with, not married) job was bought by a more progressive and liberal company that believes that livin partners of their employess should have the same coverage as them.

Even as a massage therapist.. I'm not making enough to pay for medical and the insurance I need as a MT.. so this was a huge relief.

I want social healthcare so people who work their fingers to the bone to support themselves and their families, who can't afford even the basics of health care to beable to get it through social health care programs. So that's one less thing for them to have to worry about shelling obscene amounts of cash out for.

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AzTide
I find some comments on here paranoid, disgusting,hateful and selfish. There is no empathy.

We are a higher income family and WE WOULD NOT MIND paying more taxes to help those less fortunate-and we know others that think the same way.

I just don't like spending my tax dollars on an unjust war-I would rather help my fellow citizens here in the U.S.

But all I ask is that governments implement programs that work & spend our money intelligently and be more transparent.

We really need programs to get people on their feet, free education, health care (& mental).But for a limited amount of time of course-some people simply can't be helped-they are damaged goods-but they are not trash to be thrown unto the streets !! :angry: And yes, some are just lazy, they can be sorted out-tough luck for them-we shouldn't cater to them.

I hate this survival of the fittest mentality-we all have a weak member in our blood-lines/family.

You do realize nothing stops you from over paying on your taxes or from not taking any deductions. You can even over pay your state taxes or send a check to local groups who help the people you want helped.

Plenty of organizations out there will accept your contributions and then just don't take the tax write off and that way it gets spent how you want it spent.

Problem solved!!!!!!!!!!!

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AzTide
Another thing -for all the whining going on about helping the "poor loser lazy SOB's"

The more poverty a country has & stupid drug policies that don't work-the more tax money us "financially comfortable" folks have to pay on police, jails,prisons etc.

The less available education (for career skills) the mo po folks you'll have that can't survive flippin burgers. I guess some don't want educated people cause they are the modern day slaves that you don't have to pay ****. Flippin burgers is ok for teens or retired folks to make some play money -but that's it. I don't feel it's right when fathers & mothers have to work 2-3 jobs to survive. Life is too short & kids grow up too fast.

The more losses over all.

And not just that- the more chances for you greedy folks to be robbed, murdered, theft etc.

Also less rehabilitated drug addicts. It's either rehab or jail-if I had my way. It depends on the person. Drug convicted Felons can't get a real job or one at all -and then the whole cycle starts all over again.

It'll be just like South Africa-no safety for your kids.

I do agree that the war on drugs is a waste of money, resources, and is just dumb. Look how quick Boston was to want to make the new Marijuana law retroactive. They feel it’ll save like 3 million a year in law enforcement for possession of an ounce or less of marijuana.

You do realize the vast majority of those people just don't want education. That's not mean spirited that's just true. Education especially if you want a career requires studying, learning, work, and dedication. Allot of people are lazy or would rather blame someone else or their parents or grand parents because they didn't instill it into them.

This world isn't utopia and money and government can't even bring it close to that. Allot of people are just who they are. If you gave them a million dollars and an up and comer a million dollars the burger flipper 9 out of 10 times will end up broke. He’ll have a jacked up truck and a boat but he’ll be broke. The up and comer more times then not will turn that into a successful life and career.

My dad always stayed on me to learn and when I blew school work off he’d always finish his lecture off with "keep this up the world needs ditch diggers to". And we need people working at McDonalds when I take my kids for their happy meals. That's just the facts.

The problem is we waste Billions trying to save the ones who abuse it or could care less. While the parent working 2 or 3 jobs can’t get it because they make too much money. That’s just DUMB but it happens allot.

And for sure violent crimes need a far stronger punishment than say a second dui gets. Right now a guy with a second dui and the guy that beats up and robs a man on the street get pretty close to the same jail sentence. And if it’s a first offense the guy might even get off with just probation for the robbery and assault. Depends on his legal representation and were he lives.

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PhoenixDown
BS. I've worked since I was 16. Not *once* was I able to afford healthcare.. even when I worked two - three jobs. This is the first time I actually have been covered, and all because my partner's (who I live with, not married) job was bought by a more progressive and liberal company that believes that livin partners of their employess should have the same coverage as them.

Even as a massage therapist.. I'm not making enough to pay for medical and the insurance I need as a MT.. so this was a huge relief.

I want social healthcare so people who work their fingers to the bone to support themselves and their families, who can't afford even the basics of health care to beable to get it through social health care programs. So that's one less thing for them to have to worry about shelling obscene amounts of cash out for.

When I was a massage therapist (LMT - I don't know what it is called in Seattle) I didn't make enough money to afford nearly anything...lol. I had my own practice for two years and I had to file it as a loss every year. With malpractice insurance, continuing education, room rent (I was in an office with a chiro), supplies, etc... I wasted money going to school for it. I really did. :P

Edited by PhoenixDown

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SilverCougar
When I was a massage therapist (LMT - I don't know what it is called in Seattle) I didn't make enough money to afford nearly anything...lol. I had my own practice for two years and I had to file it as a loss every year. With malpractice insurance, continuing education, room rent (I was in an office with a chiro), supplies, etc... I wasted money going to school for it. I really did. :P

Yeah it's LMT here as well. And I don't doubt it. People who are MTs tend to work in several different offices, and going to people's homes and having people go to their homes. It's not that great a way to make a living, but it's better then no job..

And yes, the malpractice insurance is a killer =(

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momentarylapseofreason
You do realize nothing stops you from over paying on your taxes or from not taking any deductions. You can even over pay your state taxes or send a check to local groups who help the people you want helped.

Plenty of organizations out there will accept your contributions and then just don't take the tax write off and that way it gets spent how you want it spent.

Problem solved!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm no expert but maybe a 10% (income tax) flat tax rate would suffice if we just spend our money intelligently.

And I would leave it up to people to pay more taxes if they wished (over the 10% voluntarily). They would fill out a yearly tax form, in this way they could adjust the % they pay on their income/capital gains and by seeing if they are happy with the way their tax dollars are being spent.

Maybe many of us are not so much greedy, we just feel our government doesn't spend money wisely to satisfy it's citizens-rich or poor.

Most charities are corrupt or they keep very much for themselves. There was a study done.

I would also raise taxes on unhealthy products, candy, alcohol , cigarettes, some luxury items & lower taxes on healthy foods, and all biologically friendly foods & services, products.

I would not raise taxes on petrol/fuel. we can't do that now.

Edited by momentarylapseofreason

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PhoenixDown
Yeah it's LMT here as well. And I don't doubt it. People who are MTs tend to work in several different offices, and going to people's homes and having people go to their homes. It's not that great a way to make a living, but it's better then no job..

And yes, the malpractice insurance is a killer =(

::gasp:: we finally agree on something...lol. :D

Massage killed my joints as well. I had to stop doing it.

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eqgumby
This part: These homeless only go when they HAVE to, and they NEVER GO BACK FOR FOLLOW-UP. You can't treat a person that REFUSES TO BE ADMITTED.

As I pointed out, you're not aware of the problem of the homeless freezing, yet somehow you're cognizant of their healthcare practices? Unless you know this from direct knowledge, it seems to me you're the one making a huge generalisation about the homeless and healthcare.

--Jaylemurph

Holy crap. You still insist I am unaware of homeless people freezing...wtf?

Sorry, there are no sources and no proof of what was previously claimed, to which you still have no reply.

Obviously you are just here to disagree, otherwise you would not STILL be insisting I claim the homeless do not freeze to death at times.

And my generalizations are based on fact and personal observation.

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SilverCougar
::gasp:: we finally agree on something...lol. :D

Massage killed my joints as well. I had to stop doing it.

Wait.. where did we disagree.. or am I just just rollin with it to the point I never noticed. XD

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eqgumby
I rarley post whole posts oh wait I won't do it but I think Eggy just got owned.

Ring a bell Eggy.

I think you're totally wrong. I think I just had dirt tossed in my face. Jay STILL says I believe or said something I didn't. But hey, that's OK.

She thinks everyone should have free health-care and not have to work, and be given a free home, free car, free food, and we should take everyones money, put it all in one pot, let the government take what they think is fair, then give everyone else what's left over, spread out evenly. So, if you just sit home (in your provided house) and eat and drink (your provided food) and make babies (to get a bigger house and use that provided health care), you can just wait for your monthly check (provided for you of course), then you can spend it any way you like, because if you DO spend it on booze and hookers, it's OK, the government will provide you with everything you need anyway.

Right...I got owned. Please. :rolleyes: I didn't even have to go to the extremes or tell the lies, or preach the same old socialist crap Jay did. I just had to go by my life experiences, in which NOTHING was given to me, EVER. Because I worked my A$$ off to get ahead, rather than whine and complain. Sorry I expect the rest of America to do the same when faced with adversity.

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jaylemurph
She thinks everyone should have free health-care and not have to work, and be given a free home, free car, free food, and we should take everyones money, put it all in one pot, let the government take what they think is fair, then give everyone else what's left over, spread out evenly.

I've heard of reading between the lines before, but this sort of interpretation borders on out-and-out divination. I mean, I didn't even know I believed that.*

And, coincidentally enough, the pronoun to use here is "he". "/He/ thinks everyone should have free health-care..."

--Jaylemurph

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PhoenixDown
Wait.. where did we disagree.. or am I just just rollin with it to the point I never noticed. XD

Politically I think you and I disagree on just about everything.

:)

Maybe my change of icon threw you off.

Edited by PhoenixDown

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SilverCougar
Politically I think you and I disagree on just about everything.

:)

Maybe my change of icon threw you off.

Mebbe.. or the disagreements wern't that huge that I just don't remember.

Then again, they do say the first to go at old age is memory.

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KyrusRose

Alright.. let me set this down very simply. In terms anyone can understand.

IF anyone could get health care, if everyone could afford it, or everyone was given health care from the government, we would already have universal health care.. but we don't.

Drug addiction, alcoholism is NOT a factor in this. If anyone could just walk into a welfare office and become insured, we would already have what I wish we did have. The fact.. not opinion.. FACT.. is there ARE people that, for whatever reason, can NOT get health care. Its ignorant to say every single one of these people is a drunken drug addict. There ARE people who work who can't get health care.. people who make just enough to be denied government insurance and not enough to afford their own. To argue any of this is pure and simple ignorance, and I'm going to ignore it as such.

Egg you keep yelling and screaming, if you're ready to speak with a little respect, I'm willing to listen, but right now you're running on pure emotion and its getting a little out of hand. Go take a deep breath and play some Desk Top Defense or Gaia Online. It might get a good idea to stay away from the politics until you're calmed down.

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Bogeyman

Wow ....I was only saying congratulations !

Anyhoo.....A couple of retorts if i may.

To those saying that Iraq was a mess caused by Europe that America had to sort out ...... :huh: Do some more research , here's a clue on where to start...use the key words, george Bush Snr , The CIA and Iraq......nuff said on that.

For those of you using FOX news as a source :lol: C'mon for god sake .......Start here

http://www.turnoffyourtv.com/networks/foxnews/foxnews.html

Anyway all that aside , i still say congratulations America , and now that he's there why not row in behind him.As someone else said he will not achieve everything and people will be dissapointed , but his election shows OUR capacity for positive change as a species.....and thats a giant leap for mankind. It's the gesture that will inspire .....we hope and pray

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