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Lt_Ripley

wow ! the truth on Palin starts coming out

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Harte
Well if it's your contention that she "Attacked an opponent's positions as she saw them during a US presidential campaign run."

then , with those views, makes her unworthy to hold public office in the United States .

You mean like Andrew Jackson and John Quincy Adams were both "unworthy" to hold office?

In the 1828 election, Jamieson writes, Andrew Jackson's supporters distributed handbills portraying John Quincy Adams as driving away a "crippled old soldier" who asked for charity, with a horsewhip, no less. Adams's supporters put out handbills decrying Jackson's reputation as a military hero by painting the general's execution of six deserting soldiers as a bloodthirsty act, invoking the image of gallant young men "welter(ing) in their gore!!" Jackson's supporters replied with handbills suggesting that Jackson had not executed the soldiers but "swallowed them whole, coffins and all, without the slightest attempt at mastication!!!!!!"

Or like Abraham Lincoln and Stephen Douglas were both "unworthy?'

In 1858, as Senate candidates Abe Lincoln and Stephen Douglas argued, their remarks about each other were thick with sarcasm. The crowd loved it. Much like modern crowds, who are apt to shout things like "Booo!" (about the opponent) and "You're a hottie!" (about Sarah Palin), the audience at the first Lincoln-Douglas debate erupted with "hark" and "humbug" and "hit him again."

Douglas spoke condescendingly of Lincoln "following the example and lead of all the little abolition orators, who go around and lecture in the basements of schools and churches." He allowed that Lincoln had some good points - as a young man, Lincoln had been top-notch at "running a foot-race" and "could ruin more liquor than all the boys of the town together." (Here we imagine Douglas doing a hearty 19th-century chortle.)

Lincoln responded by correcting the assertions of "Judge Douglas" on several matters, allowing that he was certain Douglas wasn't intending to lie. He said, "I know the judge is a great man, while I am only a small man" - and then proceeded to gut him.

He also compared Douglas to an "obstinate animal," adding, "I mean no disrespect."

Source

You have a strange view of what "unworthy" means.

I suppose we shouldn't really blame Hitler for many things that we currently do by that score, I mean .. he was only saying things as he saw it .

I certainly don't blame Hitler for anything he said...

I do, however, blame you for trumpeting a load of crap about a politician here at UM.

Harte

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Borat

First of all, they are only supporters afterall , so the analogy is not quite in keeping with the situation we have with Palin, as we are dealing with her and the actions she may cause her supporters to undertake , rather than your Jackson and Adams situation where the supporters actions are retrospectiely attributed back to the candidate .

Your previous stance is that it was ok for Palin to do what she did because that was how 'she saw it' ie that was what she believed to be true . Which is not the case here , what we have here is supporters distributing propaganda of something that wasn't true or an exaggeration on a truth presented in an almost slapstick exchange of handbills. Albeit distatesful in our day and age and no doubt unpleasant back then, but in general, more in keeping with the language and methods of the day than you could get away with these days . Nevertheless, we must widen our earlier estimation that you think it ok if she only speaks the truth 'as she sees it' but also extend it to you would think it ok for her to lie distort and propaganderize as did the Adams/Jackson Representatives , unless of course you want to say that you don't believe these supporters should have produced these handbills, that the candidates should not be elected because of it , or that the supporters did doesn't represent the candidate . But in doing that the whole point in posting that quote would be lost .

So from you defending , or lack thereof, your little nugget of 'as she saw it' the implication being she spoke no untruths or distortions as known to her , we have arrived finally at establishing that you do not in fact mind a little bit of lying and deceiving at all. We have to arrive at these conclusions indirectly by inference of material presented, owing to you asking me all the questions and you just offering up 'as she saw it'. I was wondering if you were some kind of moralist 'speak the 'truth' no matter what' freedom of expression purist , but obviously you aren't . Maybe just when it suits .

The dirtiest campaign in american history . History being the operative word . You see , people and societies move forward, they operate by new sets of rules , we don't use the standards of yesterday and apply them to the present day .

But what you'd like me to do is base todays principles of what is fair or unfair in an election campaign to an event 170 odd years ago . Why stop at Jackson and Adams , you could go back much further where the acts were even further reprehensible by todays standards , but it's pointless and irrelevant to make such a judgement based on today's values. You have to judge the attributes and rhetoric of such people within the context of their times . Many medieval monarchs, popes and dignatories would not be considered apt for higher office of their country today by their behaviour, but in that day and age , that was the rules and customs by which they lived by, it was the norm, and consequently ,for their times, they were not necessarily out of place .

But that is what you do, that is the way you think . You look at events out of their context , era or situation and think they can apply anywhere or be judged within the narrow confines of the activity itself without recourse to any wider implications . You see things as singular without consideration for the periphery .

I don't think I made any reference to blaming Hitler for what he said , I believe I made reference to blaming certain issues that may have occured due to what he said , but the fact that you do not blame him for what he said is duly noted .

With your myopism , only seeing , in your view, purity of the microcosm because what exists extraneously taints and distorts the paradigm , I wonder if that is just because that is what is most suitable for you in this instance . I wonder if you will extend that same courtesy to the politicians you are not so politically in agreement with. We shall no doubt find out in due course .

Or , I wonder , will those principles magically disappear depending upon the situation . You know , like you accusing me of 'trumpeting a load of crap about a politician here at UM' , when all I am doing is 'saying it how I see it' . Wonderful thing those principles , so resolute and meaningful one moment only to crumble away to insignificance and mere words just to suit the occasion the next .

Edited by Borat

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Borat

My time is done here for awhile . So you can have the last word , or should I say you can have the last question ?

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The Silver Thong
If it get viewers or sell papers the media will report and worry later on small things like this.

Good point

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Harte
First of all, they are only supporters afterall , so the analogy is not quite in keeping with the situation we have with Palin, as we are dealing with her and the actions she may cause her supporters to undertake , rather than your Jackson and Adams situation where the supporters actions are retrospectiely attributed back to the candidate .

However, you still, despite repeated questioning on my part, have yet to state exactly what it is you claim Palin has "done."

Regarding your strange views of how campaigns work, I can only say that the following from you is the epitome of dancing around the issue:

Your previous stance is that it was ok for Palin to do what she did because that was how 'she saw it' ie that was what she believed to be true . Which is not the case here , what we have here is supporters distributing propaganda of something that wasn't true or an exaggeration on a truth presented in an almost slapstick exchange of handbills. Albeit distatesful in our day and age and no doubt unpleasant back then, but in general, more in keeping with the language and methods of the day than you could get away with these days . Nevertheless, we must widen our earlier estimation that you think it ok if she only speaks the truth 'as she sees it' but also extend it to you would think it ok for her to lie distort and propaganderize as did the Adams/Jackson Representatives , unless of course you want to say that you don't believe these supporters should have produced these handbills, that the candidates should not be elected because of it , or that the supporters did doesn't represent the candidate . But in doing that the whole point in posting that quote would be lost .

So, what did Palin do?

If this is the sort of thing that has gone on every election season in the history of the United States, what exactly is your justification for decrying it so vigorously this time?

Where were you when Obama put out the Spanish language ad about McCain that was nothing but lies? Or are you saying here that Obama is also "unworthy" for public office?

My point is that if you can't put up with the typical presidential campaign, then you can't ever support any candidate.

Palin did absolutely nothing atypical.

Or, if she did, you haven't said, or for some reason refuse to say, what it was.

So from you defending , or lack thereof, your little nugget of 'as she saw it' the implication being she spoke no untruths or distortions as known to her , we have arrived finally at establishing that you do not in fact mind a little bit of lying and deceiving at all. We have to arrive at these conclusions indirectly by inference of material presented, owing to you asking me all the questions and you just offering up 'as she saw it'. I was wondering if you were some kind of moralist 'speak the 'truth' no matter what' freedom of expression purist , but obviously you aren't . Maybe just when it suits .

The "as she saw it" was, of course, facetious. I doubt many candidates ever actually state the facts as they actually see them. If you aren't aware of this simple fact that undergirds every single campaign ad, voting (as Obama would say) is above your pay grade.

The dirtiest campaign in american history . History being the operative word . You see , people and societies move forward, they operate by new sets of rules, we don't use the standards of yesterday and apply them to the present day .

But what you'd like me to do is base todays principles of what is fair or unfair in an election campaign to an event 170 odd years ago . Why stop at Jackson and Adams , you could go back much further where the acts were even further reprehensible by todays standards , but it's pointless and irrelevant to make such a judgement based on today's values.

I could move forward in time as well. Why do you think that the election of 2008 should suddenly be pristine and "mud" free when no such election has ever been held in this country?

That was my point. I went that far back to get to some presidents that people regard (erroneously, probably) as respectable.

We could do this with JFK, LBJ (most definitely!), Nixon (goes without saying, doesn't it?) Carter, Ford, Reagan, Bush1, Clinton et al.

Yet you want to hold Palin somehow to a higher standard than even your own candidate Obama?

I don't think I made any reference to blaming Hitler for what he said , I believe I made reference to blaming certain issues that may have occured due to what he said , but the fact that you do not blame him for what he said is duly noted .

On the other hand, instead of "I don't think..." you could go back and read what you wrote. Of course, I realize that would be an inconvenience. Not because it's a hassle but because it is what you said:

I suppose we shouldn't really blame Hitler for many things that we currently do by that score, I mean .. he was only saying things as he saw it .

With your myopism , only seeing , in your view, purity of the microcosm because what exists extraneously taints and distorts the paradigm , I wonder if that is just because that is what is most suitable for you in this instance . I wonder if you will extend that same courtesy to the politicians you are not so politically in agreement with. We shall no doubt find out in due course .

Not only do I "extend that same courtesy..." I have stated here at U-M several times that anyone that holds anything a politician says in a campaign against them has no business supporting any politician. Anyone that votes that has that attitude is, like yourself, a hypocrite.

I cite the thunderous silence on your part concerning the radio ad I mentioned above as evidence of your hypocrisy.

Or , I wonder , will those principles magically disappear depending upon the situation . You know , like you accusing me of 'trumpeting a load of crap about a politician here at UM' , when all I am doing is 'saying it how I see it' .

Actually, you have yet to say anything at all "as you see it." Look back and count how many times I've asked you to tell me exactly what it was that Palin "..has done" as you put it when you stated:

Now look what this gaudy vacuous travesty of a politician has done

Wonderful thing those principles , so resolute and meaningful one moment only to crumble away to insignificance and mere words just to suit the occasion the next .

You, a walking Obama ad blurting nonsense without even being cognizant that it's nonsense, are going to judge me for asking you to please indicate exactly what Palin has done and show us where the Secret Service has said anything about it at all?

I guess voting is "above your pay grade."

Harte

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Borat

Billy Bob : Mary Lou , did ya'll see what Sarah said about ol Obama , he bein in league with terrorist n 'all ?

Mary Lou : Weeell I suuuuure as hell did , i ben chooin' on ma tobaccer just thinkin' on what we should do doin bout that dang problem.

Billy Bob : Ima gon break out ma shotgun and shoot me that sonofabiatch .

Mary Lou : Ima agreeing with ya Honey , we ought to go take down that damn terrorist luvin' reetard's *** , yee hawww

Billy Bob : Ima thinking we need to git some good ole boys to help us out on this one Mary Lou , yous best go get Bubba , Cletus , Earl , Jim Bob , Jim Ray , Bobby Ray and Billy Ray junior . I'm gonna give that Harte Guy from Memphis a call , we gon' tell them we goin out to whoop on some terrorist commie muslim's ***.

Mary Lou : Billy Ray Junior and Jim Bob , y'all come on in from the Porch now y'hear , and bring the dawgs with ya , we got some business needs discussin. Where's Earl, Cletus , Bubba and Bobby Ray got to ?

Billy Ray Junior : I ain't seen em since this mornin ', theys a' been gon down Wild Bill's 'Spits n Shots' Liquor Bar all day long.

Billy Bob : and where the hell has Bobbie Sue gone ?

Mary LOu : I don't know Billy Bob , last I saw her she was up in the cowshed with her cousin Dwayne Earl Jnr. Theys a been up there hours and gone locked the doors. All I could hear was a bangin' and a mumblin ' , and a groanin and a squealin. I figure they wuz having trouble milkin the cows.

Billy Bob : I thought that was her uncle ?

Mary Lou : Yeah , he's that too .

Jim Bob : Hell Yeah

Billy Bob : Ok , when you see her , tell her I'm fixin to put that gun rack up on her bicycle by the weekend.

Jim Bob : Hell Yeah

Billy Bob : Ok, now listen up , we all got ourself's a situation here . Now y'all been to the Rally , y'all heard what Sarah Palin had to say bout Obama pallying around with Terrorists n'all. Now we gon' be saving America now y'hear , we gon' be saving the land our forefathers fought for , we gon' take him down . We gon' take him down before he spreads his muslim terrorist lovin' ways cross this great nation of ours y'hear .

Billy Ray Junior : Aw sheesh this mean we gon miss th' Dukes ?

Billy Bob : Mary Lou , you gon' be comin with us ?

Mary Lou : I sure am , Ima rootin', tootin', six-gun shootin', no disputin' badass momma

Mary Lou : Im old-time pickin, kentucky fried lickin, I'ma redneck gal , gonna get ma gun .

Jim Bob : Hell Yeah

Billy Bob : Billy Ray Junior , go'on git down Wild Bills n go get th' boys. You tell em the situation , tell em the future of the good ole US of A is at stake and get their butts here at the double .

Billy Ray Junior : Sir . Yessir . Yessireee

Billy Bob : Ok, I'm gon' call this Harte from Memphis up. Mary Lou , I dun told you before , cover up those tattoo's when I gon talk to somebody on the phone .

Jim Bob : Hell Yeah

Billy Bob : Howdy doody Harte , say , you musta seen whats goin on in the news , Ol Obama bein in league with Terrorist n'all , you wanna come meet up with a few good ole boys here in Carter and go take care of this situation ?

Harte : Well now Billy Bob , you know Palin was lying to you when she said those things , you know that's what they do . You only got to look at Jackson and Quincy Adams back in 1824 and see those handbills they would print about each other. They all lie and cook up a whole manner of untruths , thats what they all do y'see.

Billy Bob : Say what ? who in tha name of Jesus is this Jackson dude , he best not be that damn fool Jackson from the liquor store , I told him I ain't got time to take that truck delivery today. And I ain't got time for watchin no tv detective series either.

Billy Bob : Honey , can you put down the moonshine and come to the phone and speak to this guy, I can't make no goddamn sense outta him .

Mary Lou : I can't come right now Honey , I just saw me some fresh Roadkill down by the dirt path, was gon fix yer up somethin to eat , less you want me to russel up yer favorite Possum stoo ?

------- ---------

To be continued .

Edited by Borat

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Cleomenes

You should really stop making a fool out of yourself.

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Mr  Honeybadger
------- ---------

To be continued .

That's OK.

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Borat

Mary Lou : I can't come right now Honey , I just saw me some fresh Roadkill down by the dirt path, was gon fix yer up somethin to eat , less you want me to russel up yer favourite Possum stoo ?

--- ---- ---- ---- ----

Mary Lou : So what's he sayin' ?

Billy Bob : Sumthin' bout Sarah lyin n'all and some other sheet I didn't get , hold on, maybe he talkin bout Michael Jackson and Quincy Jones ?

Mary Lou : well I don't know bout Sarah lyin n all y'know , that just ain't christian , and I know the looord is with her , as he told me so in ma dreams , amen . He's a tellin' you Sarah was a lyin' to us ? , you sure he ain't no terrorist too ? I bet he dang well is , he listenin' to that kinda boogie woogie music n'all.

Jim Bob : Hell Yeah

Billy Bob : Boy , you still there ? , I don't know bout sarah lyin to us n all. Why'd she do a thing like that ?

Harte : I doubt many candidates ever actually state the facts as they actually see them. If you aren't aware of this simple fact that undergirds every single campaign ad, voting is above your pay grade.

Billy Bob : I can tell you bruther , it's been like red dawn meets mississipi burnin down here in Carter since the rally. Theres gun's a shootin and crosses a burnin' , ain't nobody here knew she was just a ly'in to us . That there is kinda shrewd thinkin' , that there sure is above their pay grade . Hell they don't works anyhow most of em . She sure had me fooled yessireee.

Jim Bob : Hell Yeah

Harte : Well they have must strange views of how campaigns work. This is the sort of thing that has gone on every election season in the history of the United States.

Harte : I could move forward in time as well. Why do you think that the election of 2008 should suddenly be pristine and "mud" free when no such election has ever been held in this country?

Billy Bob : I sees what yous sayin now , so like in 2012 , sarah could say Osama is the antichrist , he gon raise the taxes 3 fold on white folks to pay for new homes for black people and is really th' brains behind 9/11 , that he gon turn us into a muslim nation that gonna scare the bajezzus outa us poor white christian folk , makin' us go git our guns again ?

Harte : Exactly , what is your justification for decrying it so vigorously ?

Billy Bob : Hell, I ain't decrying it , im kinda likin' it . Ima thinkin' there been a lyin an a deceivin been goin on from way back when all over the place. Ain't just in campaigns . It's a historical thing , like ya say .

Billy Bob : Isa thinkin' in light o whatya sayin' here , that I can say whatever the hell I like wherever and whenever , and if it causes any sheet, then it ain't my fault .

Jim Bob : Hell Yeah

Billy BOb : Well thank ya for yer time Mr Harte .

Harte : Have a good one Billy Bob .

Billy Bob : Ok Mary Lou , put away that pitchfork, we got us a change of plan here.

Mary Lou : You mean we ain't goin' out a lynchin and a burnin ?? , well durn , I was about to give Grandma Thelma Jo a call , she ain't seen a good ol lynching since the summer of 58.

Billy Bob : You tell ol Grandma Thelma I'll get that Wheelchair of hers jacked up for a couple o tractor tyres n add a couple'a wide fenders when she's around next time.

Jim Bob : hell Yeah

Billy Ray Junior : I'sa bin' Wild Bill's n dun told the boys bout the downfall of the US of A n'all, but they'sa plannin on watchin the NASCAR racin later on and ain't got time today. All cept Cletus that is , last I seen o'him , he gon gettin in his pickup mumblin sumthin' bout baggin himself a durn terrorist.

Billy Bob : Yous an idgit, you durn inbred , didn't you know that was just campaign talk ? Go on'n git Cletus back yer durn fool.

------ ------ -------

To be continued.

Edited by Borat

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Stardrive
To be continued.

linked-image

Edited by Stardrive

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Papagiorgio
Mary Lou : I can't come right now Honey , I just saw me some fresh Roadkill down by the dirt path, was gon fix yer up somethin to eat , less you want me to russel up yer favourite Possum stoo ?

Billy Bob : Boy , you still there ? , I don't know bout sarah lyin to us n all. Why'd she do a thing like that ?

This post violates forum rules and should be removed.

3. Behaviour

Any of the following constitutes unacceptable behaviour:

3a. Racism or hatred: Do not post racist or hate-driven material or views which express hatred towards or discriminate against any specific race, religion, country, gender, individual or group.

If the "rednecks" were replaced with stereotypical black, hispanic, or gay characters how upset would people be. How long would it take for the Mods to step in?

Harte is right. Palin did exactly the same thing every other U.S. politician has done for the past 200 plus years.

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Harte
This post violates forum rules and should be removed.

3. Behaviour

Any of the following constitutes unacceptable behaviour:

3a. Racism or hatred: Do not post racist or hate-driven material or views which express hatred towards or discriminate against any specific race, religion, country, gender, individual or group.

If the "rednecks" were replaced with stereotypical black, hispanic, or gay characters how upset would people be. How long would it take for the Mods to step in?

Papa,

That really is an excellent point.

I suppose nobody wants to admit to being a redneck and thus nobody will admit to being offended by Borat's ignorance.

Harte is right.

That usually goes without saying, ( :D ) but thanks anyway.

Harte

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BlindMessiah
and fox new's even jumped on it lol

Yet you have people like Greta promoting Palin every night of the week. It'll be interesting to see what comes of the Republican party by 2012, could get nasty. :devil:

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BlindMessiah
If it get viewers or sell papers the media will report and worry later on small things like this.

I disagree. The major news channels often omit stories if it doesn't fit with their agenda. The fact that they jumped on this tells me a lot of conservatives are looking to discredit Palin very quickly.

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Cleomenes
I disagree. The major news channels often omit stories if it doesn't fit with their agenda. The fact that they jumped on this tells me a lot of conservatives are looking to discredit Palin very quickly.

Of course, she's an easy scapegoat for the mess that was the McCain campaign.

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BlindMessiah
Of course, she's an easy scapegoat for the mess that was the McCain campaign.

Not only that, she still is carrying sway in the Republican party, and I doubt everyone is pleased with that.

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